>> in order to allow retailers to sell more. m now do those comments put lives at risk?s but what if he was right, and that brings us to the third rail question tonight.on is truth overrepresentatived ani in fact has lying become the american way? i'm going toam ask our panel, starting with team no. roxane gay is bestselling author of "bad feminist" now hunger. roxane is truth overerated. >> no, carlos, it isn't. >> mo rocca, you know him as a humorist and journalist. you probably enjoy him right now on "cbs sunday morning."o >> what she said, i'm pro truth. >> pro truth. truthiness. i like it. and seth stephens-davidowitz is a "new york times" op-ed columnist, former google data scientist. seth, what say you, truth

over-rated? >> yes, i'm anti-truth. >> look at you. gotta be from new jersey.ne there you go. and his tag team partner, former director of the trump campaign. is truth over-rated? >> yes. y >> that's a shocker. >> i'm not sure what side he is on, but later i will chat withwi malcolm gladwell.m first our debate starts at home with you.th see this meter here on the bottom of the screen? you're literally moving the opinion needle on our questionqu of the week.e our studio audience and use at home vote. text us at nevada 9. message and data rates, of course, apply.se let's get this going from politics and professional sports. it seems lying is the new acceptable way to get ahead. we have met our team and my first question is going to side no. seth weathers, i'm starting witi

you. you were an early supporter of o president trump. people were arguing he has takek lying to a whole n place, a whole new space and time. is this more of the same or something dramatic and new? >> are politicians lying more of the same?sa >> is president trump. is president trump's lying morey of the same--m >> you're already starting out with the assumption he's lying to begin with.it i guess i can't start from that base. and i think that, you know, there certainly are examples of politicians that are going to stretch the truth and i think it happens on both sides and i think it happens on this side. as for the daca thing, what he did is not a reversal.er he still cares for the daca kids and he made that clear. >> this is the immigration. stay on that. you heard how much president trump has been hit and you heard people say from crowd sizes to all sorts of other things, they feel like he has lied. and you're saying those aren't a lie. >> everyone has lied.li the things you named sound like exaggerations, if you ask me.me >> you're drawing a distinction there. >> there has to be a distinction.

>> what do you say, roxane gay,a is that a reason to say there'sr a fundamental amount of truth in there and whether the crowd size was there th or that the-- ( laughs ) i love the nonverbal answers. hit me help how do you think about that question? >> i think it'st wishful thinking, and it's a way of deluding yourself into thinking that your guy is correct.rr but there are people's lives at stake. and so to say he is exaggerating or he truly cares for the daca kids when his action of actions belie, that it's absurd. and i don't think right new we can afford to suggest that it's okay to lie or that he's not actually lying. he's already reversed course, and then he's reversed course again. and he's the president of thede united states. and we should hold him to a higher standard than perhaps joe plumber. >> what do you say to those on the other side, president trump has lied. people always lied. they say president obamaop wasnt completely honest about health care, said everybody is going to

keep their plan. this is more of the same. >> there have been big presidential whoppers. l.b.j.'s gulf of tonkin. weapons of mass destruction. at best it was naivete and not having your facts straight. but there probably was a big old lie in there.in so i think that president trump lies and is canny enough to know that a lot of people know that he lies, and are okay with it. because they're so cynical about presidents and truth. >> how do you hear that? i know you spent a lot of time trying to understand not what we claim regard to truth but what we actually do. have we entered a new phase and a new place as it relates to lying and whether truth still has a place at the table? >> i think everyone has always lied. and i just want to clarify, just by my sitting next to seth, i hate trump. ( laughter ) >> seth divide.vi >> i love that, a little camaraderie. >> and i think-- i think he lies through his teeth. >> do you think he knows that he

lies? >> i think in general, exaggerating and stuff, politicians have always done that. i don't even know that it's that much different flip-flopping. i think flip-flopping is fine. i would rather someone who was on the wrong side flip back to the right side.gh so the lying thing is not such a big deal. >> all right, seth weathers, i have to let you back in here. you came up from georgia. you're one man on his own here.e talk to me. t you hear these critiques and hear people saying "a," they feel like--- >> i've been hearing inaccuracies. you're talking about daca, saying trump flipped on that. he did not. >> daca, just to be clear-- >> the dreamers, i'm sorry, the dreamers act when president obamaea signed and president trp said he will sunset in six months unless congress acts.re >> he said all along that was his stance on the dreamers, thah it was unconstitutional for obama to do, that the wait he did that. it has to go through congress. what trump said was i'm giving

it six months and givingin congress time to fix it. that's not saying he has any opposition to the dreamers.r it was the process and it still has to be done constitutionally. >> fair enough. >> that's the promise he made to his voters.hi >> i think that's reasonable because i think whenever you discuss policy issues, people can feel different here. h you know there's a larger critique here. there's a larger critique while all politicians lie and have lied over the years and there t have been huge whoppers, as mopointed out, there is an argument trump has taken it to a different place-- >> versus hillary. >> say more, seth weathers.et >> did you wipe down the server with a rag? come on. there were a lot of emails about yoga and her daughter's wedding planning that took place there. i don't hear us using that as an example of lies. >> hold on. roxane you wrote a beautiful piece in the "new york times,"es your support for hillary.y. you didn't say it was a blanketa support but you said it was a full-throated support.

what do you say when people say you're being a little narrow minded and you hear him saying, "what about hillary?" how do you respond to that? >> what about hillary?la she's not president. and, like, so what? i mean, there's just a different scale when you're the president of the united states.e he and it's shocking to me that somehow we're just going to let this one pass as if we shouldn'o have standarded for the leader of the free world. >> qiew we're going to use thata brief segue to see what america thinks. the poll asked, "is the truth over-rated?" very interestingly, 18% of the folks said yes. one in five. three-quarters of us said no no, it's not over-rated. 6% were unsure. i'm not sure who is unsure but that's a different show.o this goes to the credibility of a nation, and some would ask culd our allies look to china or

russia for support or go it alone? how do you guys think about that ah little bit? mo, do you worry about whether the president's credibility, and, therefore, the u.s. credibility has somehow been weakened and that could have a larger ripple impact on the global stage. >> it does seem a little odd to blame south korea when north korea, for instance, is the aggressor and is a threat here. it seems like a strange pattern to kind of blame somebody who is ostensibly on our side.i >> seth d., as i'll call you, your research is really interesting in that you look, again, trying to separate what we say versus what we do. some of the research said peoplo lie regularly, maybe two to six times a day. interestingly, men may lie more than women.an some of the studies suggest double-- not holding you guys to blame, but roxane maybe will. but what has surprised you the most in your research about whether there's been an increasc

in lying and whether that permeates more broadly, not on the big stage but how we live our lives? >> i think in general, that we always have lied and lying is rampant. i think people think in the online world everyone lies more than they've always done.. and definitely people are totally dishonest on facebook and put a front. >> what are we lying on, mawch.com, tinder? >> on match.com, tinder, facebook. we always lied.. went on first dates without any tinder okaycupid, or match.com, and people lied,li exaggerated their income or how good a match they were. the patterns of behavior haven't really changed. it's just maybe become more clear, now that we have so much data on how much lying there is. >> mo, it looks like you want to jump in? >> you know who don't lie. old people don't lie. i hang around with a lot of old people. it's hard to tell the truth. and old people get to the point where they know the two or three things that matter in life, and they do tend to say what's on

their mind. like, young people like to pretend, like, that they own it and they're rebels and individuals. but young people lie all the time to fit in, but old people don't really give a dam.a >> roxane, what do you thinknk about that? i know you teach more. >> do young people lie more? i can't say. i teach fiction. >> so you encourage it. i >> i'm like, "make things up.. i want to hear."e i think they lie just to get through. everybody lies. i'm not trying to pretend that everyone doesn't lie, but i do think that there are degrees of mendacity, and i also think some lies matter more than others. and if one of my students lies-- which they do all the time about why their homework wasn't turned in-- exploding printer, dead dog. i mean, it's all lies. but, you know-- >> dead dog. as opposed to the dog that ate it? >> grandparents die, dogs die. sometimes they do, but most of the times they don't gl you say sometimes the dogs do.

>> seth you run lots of political campaigns and you think a lot about how to move voters one way or another. i mean, do you accept that that's a part of your work and that's a part of how we live? you know, how do you use lyingi in your daily-- >> clearly as a republican, we don't lie. so i want to get that out first. but, you know, i think that, obviously, each side is going to-- they're going to put their best foot forward. and so, you know, people mightt claim it's exaggerating or you're leaving up on the the bad, maybe. that's not lying.at you're going to sell the best features of your candidate. you're not going to ad on. his wife is pissed off because he doesn't make his bed in the morning or whatever. you don't have to necessarily put all the bad in with a good. >> do we as a nation have a responsibility to start to try to move us in a different direction? >> yeah, i think there are definitely certain times where lies would be problematic. but a lot of thealize we make when we talk about the lies that young people make and old people don't, it's kind of saying nice things to people. i think that's a main category of lies, where we tend to say,

"oh, that dress looks good. that meal was delicious. this show is really great." >> careful now! careful now! hey, can somebody escort setht out of the building. >> no, no, just joking.o but there's a general-- a >> you meant the show is amazing. >> amazing, yeah.>> >> there you go, okay.ay >> there's a general kind of keeping the peace and making people feel good, and we don't want to know everything everybody,s at all times about what's going on, so it's goodod for the social fabric of society. >> roxane, what do you say to that? i have a friend i work with and it was interesting what he said to me. she said, "i expect my friendsi and loved ones to lie. i don't need them to tell me the truth all the time. in fact, it would hurt me. i need to use them as a lubricant to move forward.rw >> i can accept that, but i would prefer-- i think the people that truly love me will tell me the truth when it's appropriate. i mean, if i'm having a really

bad day and you have a horrible truth to share with me about myself. you can hold on it that. >> leave it in the refrigerator? >> exactly, leave it where you want. i think that's fine. when we think about lying, it's shocking to me that we're here having this conversation, that the truth has somehow become a debate topic. and the reason it's a slippery slope is because we have-- we have states in this country where people say that slavery was a benevolent institution,s and that's considered truth.d >> we have whole states that say this? >> we have that in textbooks and curriculums in states like texas and throughout the south, so, yes. >> that slavery was benevolent. >> exactly. >> i would love to see prove or example. >> i can give you proof after the show, seth.e >> after the show. >> yes, because i don't have my laptop in front of me. >> i can tell you that's not accurate. >> yes, it is. >> that slavery was benevolent-- >> absolutely, and an institution that served both white and black people. this is a fact.a >> so what does our audience

think here in the studio and at home? grab your phones and vote now. and let's take a quick look at our opinion meter. also, don't forget that everyone can vote on tonight's question under the hashtag #thirdrailpbs, or #thirdrail, no. the panel will stay here while i talk to malcolm gladwell.gl state right where you are. so what does malcolm gladwell think of all this? gladwell, of course, is the well-known author and speaker. he's written five books, including "blink: the power of thinking without thinking," and the host of the podcast, revisionist history. people are saying lying is ruining the country. malcolm, what do you say?do >> i don't know what we mean about the word "lie" and "truth" in this context.nt if we're talking about deliberate misstatement of facts. that's fine. no one should disagree with that. that shouldn't happen. if the president says we're' highest taxed nation on earth,

we're not. there is there$b legitimate argument over that question. it's a-- an empirically verifiable statement. but a lot of what we're using these words around are, i think, legitimate differences of opinion or interpretations of complicated situations or questions of judgment. i get really, really nervousvo when people walk into a healthy argument and start calling the other side liars. you know, people who believel that climate change is not a big issue are not necessarily liarsy they are people who have taken a different look at a very, have, complicated question and come to a different conclusion. not one they agree with, but it doesn't make them liars. >> interesting. so you're arguing for more room in the debate. you're saying don't be so quick with the label "liar?" >> didn't we just spend the last generation fighting for greater

diversity at every level of this country? and right now, what we have in the media landscape is a level of diversity that we've never had probably in 100 years. maybe even ever, right. we've got-- we went through a period where everybody watched the same three middle-aged white guys every night on the news. that lasted 40 years. and in that period, unsurprisingly, there was a great degree of consensus in america on, you know, every major issue of consequence. of course there was. the media was controlled by the same three middle-aged white guys. now you have a media when represents a much better picture of what this country looks like, and understandably, you're going to have differences of opinion. that should not scare us. >> that's actually really interesting. so you are speaking of this as a positive moment. you see us moving forward. for all the folks who worry we're sliding backwards, that worry that president trump has ushered in a new era as it relates to facts, even if not president trump, fake news-- and we saw what the russians did-- have really taken this to an unhealthy place.un you say, no, no.

we're actually in a healthier place, even if it's uncomfortable. >> yeah, and i think one of the things trump hasea done is he hs awoken the media to its real responsibility in a democracy,mo which is to fact check the establishment, right.es and that's what they're doing. you know, if you look at, focus, the way "the washington post"wa and the "new york times" have been invigorated by the last-- by the last, say, year or two years of politics, that's an extraordinarily positive development for democracy. and they have been invigorated because they have understood that when someone says something that is questionable, thereh ought to be a debate about that, right? we can raise the other side.d we can find disparate voices. we can have a complicated argument in a civil society about those sorts of things. there's nothing bad about that.h >> all right, let me flip you to the other side, though. i love that you're saying that, and i also think the media has its most important moment, in the u.s. at least, in the past 40 years, since watergate.t

for those who say lie category have consequences, being untruthful about the impact of transgender troops in the military or being untruthful-- >> that's a really good question. let's just stop right there. how can you be untruthful about that fact when we dote really have any data? there's a-- we have a vanishingly small-- not vanishing. not zero, but a very, very small number of openly transgender people have served in positions of consequence in the armed forces right? r i happen to believe and many people believe it shouldn't be an issue.an i think we're getting worked up over nothing. we can get past this.th but it's not a question of lying and not lying. it's some peoplet look at that question and speck lailt that it's going to end badly. others look at that question and speculate that we're all going to be fine. the only way to figure out who is right is to actually have the experiment. it's not to sit here before anything has happened and accusc the other side of making stuff up, right? i, mean, the people who are

opposed to transgender troops don't say they've been a disaster for the military.i they say, "i worry that they'll be a disaster for the military.o >> so you'll have friends of mine from the former yugoslaviag who will hear you, totally reasonable, get your point, but here's my fear. sometimes if people are in fact lying or exaggerating in dramatic ways and people of power are doing that, that before you know it, we can slip towards chaos, and that people who come into the situation with limited power can really get hurt. and so their fear is that for you and me, we may be okay, at least fair little while. but that there are a whole raft of people who are going to get hurt while we allow the messiness of truth to go on.on >> but there's an opportunity there. i wouldn't say this process necessarily has to be messy. suppose we said in response to this transgender question, we say, "look, there's a lot of debate on this about this issue in the country. the country is divided on it. so let's actually have a controlled experiment.im let us take some part of the

armed forces, let us have transgender people serve openly, and let's study it. let's see what attitudes are like. let's see if any kind of military preparedness is impaired by this.y let's bring in psychologists and measure what they measure, and at thehe end of three years lets come back and say what happened." that strikes me as a very useful and productive way to deal with this disagreement, right? >> youre better be careful. you'll get drafted into government. >> i'm canadian. i can't. first of all, i got a better offer at home. secondly, i-- i'm not allowed. ( laughter ). >> you know, we've had some good immigrants serve in the government in past. but talk to me a little bit about truth in your life. do you-- if you were being your most candid and your most real, do you find that you are more honest, less honest, than 20-year-old malcolm? >> that's a really good question. how often did i lie when i was young?

i don't-- you know, i have a kind of-- i find that question to be a lot more complicatedm that it may appear on the surface because all of us shade the truth all the time. but in many occasions, we have legitimate reason for so doing.i so, for example, one of the panelists has written this really wonderful book, right. "everybody lies." in which he talks about the extent to which people misrepresent their positions, when they're asked directly. well, is that lying or is that people-- is that a defense against the intrusiveness of marketers? right? or is that a defense against the sometimes-onerous weight ofme public opinion? or is it people acknowledging that they're complicated? that all of us legitimately walk around with three or four different positions-- excuse me-- three or four different positions on crucial issues,ue right. i might be someone who in my heart of hearts, genuinely wants

to fight for racial equality.u but there's some little part of me that will google a racist joke and laugh at it. does that make me a bad personr or a liar or make me a complicated human being? excuse me, i have something in my throat. >> i'm going to vote on complicated human being with a cough. >> yes, with a cough. so it's like-- i mean, i think it's really important-- and it's why i love that book so much-- to observe the complexity of human nature.t but i think we should be careful about saying we're in a moment where the truth has gone out the window. you know, if anything, i sort of feel like we're so alert to these issues now that we're in a better place than we were 75 years ago when the country was living a lie and no one said a word about it, right? when we had-- when, you know, the country acquiesced to the notion that black people were genetically inferior to white people. we were fine with that for howh many hundreds of years, right? that's-- >> i wasn't, but the rest of the world-- >> when i say "we" i mean -- >> the royal we. >> americans.>>

( laughter ) so it's like i'm happier at a time where there is a-- where there's a little less consensus and much more of this kind of friction in the way we discuss. >> malcolm gladwell, i love having you come on and i knew you would hug the third rail for us and make us think about it differently. i hope you come back again. >> thank you, carlos. >> you have guys at home voted again. let's check out our opinion meter. what about you guys in the audience. let's get your votes now. come on, hit the phones. all right, i want to thank my studio audience for joining us tonight and for voting.vo and a super thanks to our panel. but before we go,n guys, we've only got about a minute left, but i've got one final questione for each of you.u i like to call it the "fast track." this is a yes or no quick question. seth weathers, you go first. is president trump full of it.ul >> no. >> i'm glad i got a laugh out of

you. mr. mo rocca, do you tell the truth about how much money you make? >> i wish more people would ask, yes! ( laughter ) >> this has been great. let us hear from you. did our debate in the end change your mind? go to pbs.org/thirdrail to voteo i'm your host carlos watson, and i'll be here next friday when "third rail" asks, "is it okay to be racist again?" i hope not. model and activist amber rose a will be here to talk about thath good luck and good night.go thank you for joining us.

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welcome to this edition of "amanpour" on pbs. tonight, how donald trump's america first policy is changing the u.s. role on the global stage. the first woman to become u.s. secretary of state, madeline albright joins us. and trying to get inside the mind of the russian president vladamir putin. journalist, julia joffe on what he really wants. >> announcer: "amanpour" on pbs was made possible by the generous support of rosalynn p. walter. ♪