♪ ♪ >> "amanpour on pbs" was made possible by the generous support of rosalind p. walter. >> good evening, everyone, and welcome. i'm christiane amanpour in london with a special edition of our program on pbs. tonight, my conversation with j.k. rowling, the much-loved author of the "harry potter" series. 20 years after the publication of her very first book, she sat down with me here in london to talk about her remarkable life, and she opened up about something we rarely hear about -- a cause very close to her heart -- helping millions of children in orphanages all over

the world through her charity, lumos. j.k. rowling, welcome to the program. >> thank you for having me. >> what is it that got you interested from the beginning? how did you decide that this was your mission? >> well, like a lot of people, i had no idea. i really had no idea about the scale of this problem. and what drew me in was one child. it was a news report about one child in the newspaper. i was pregnant [chuckles] and therefore, perhaps, particularly vulnerable and emotional to anything to do with small children. and i'm flicking through the sunday paper, and i saw what -- still i see it in my memory. it was a very disturbing image of a very small boy screaming through chicken wire. and i went to turn the page -- i'm not proud of it, but i did go to the turn the page. and then i stopped, and i thought, "if the story is as bad as the picture looks, then you have to do something about it." so i turned back, and i read the

story, and the story was about an institution in the czech republic where this boy, among many other children with special needs, was being kept, i would say, at least 20 hours out of 24 in a cage bed, which is exactly as it sounds. it's a cot for a baby covered in mesh, covered in wire, and that was his existence. and that's how it all began. i was just appalled and horrified. >> and "lumos" comes from where? why lumos? >> well, it's a spell in "harry potter." it's a bit corny. >> it's not corny. that's what you're known for. >> well, it's funny because i wanted to call it lumos, and no one could [laughing] think of anything better, so that's why lumos, basically. but it's a light-giving spell, so the metaphor is glaringly obvious, yeah. >> harry potter is an orphan, so it's kind of obvious that you're doing this, is it? >> it wasn't obvious to me at the time. but to be very candid, i think i

have... i think my worst fear, my personal worst fear, is powerlessness and small spaces. [ chuckles ] so when you think about that little boy trapped in the cage bed, he's totally voiceless, and nobody was speaking for him. and i think that that -- we all have something that touches us on a very visceral level. and i think that's mine. that's my thing. >> and small spaces. why? >> i don't know. i've always had that, and i think just the idea that these children were being kept, penned like this, was horrific to me. so although i didn't think, "that's like harry and his cupboard," i suppose, why did i put harry in the cupboard? because this is my fear, being trapped and being powerless, just powerless to get out of that space. so, yeah, on a very crude level, i think that news story tapped in to something that i found

personally horrifying. ♪ >> this is krushari, once bulgaria's largest and most notorious institution. with its long, dark, decaying corridors and its countless cold, bare bedrooms, this is what many children once called home. it's where they lived and where many died. now, through the efforts of lumos, krushari has been shut down, the children helped into small group homes closer to their families, where they get individual care and attention, the opportunity to socialize, and to plan for a future they may never have imagined. lumos works all over the world, supporting children like those in krushari, providing them with an environment that is safe and caring. and as much as possible, lumos wants to help children return home to the arms of those they love -- like christina and igor. they are siblings, both born

with disabilities. with the support of lumos, they've been reunited with their parents after years of living in a moldovan orphanage. now, for the very first time, they're able to sit around the family table to enjoy each other's company and to finally experience a love they've been so tragically deprived of. you're trying to deinstitutionalize them, right? the objective is to get these kids out of institutions. >> our ambition is to end child institutionalization by 2050. that's the ambition and -- >> all over the world? >> all over the world, global. >> how many kids are we talking about? >> well, that's a far more important question than many people will realize because we estimate there are 8 million children in institutions worldwide, but that might be a low guess. so one of our fundamental problems is we don't count all children. the moment the child is separated from the birth mother,

particularly in developing countries, it's very easy to lose track of them. and we know that around a million children disappear in europe every year. and the reality is that institutionalization, in the u.k., in canada and the u.s. and australia -- we stopped institutionalizing our children, you know, over a century ago. we knew it was wrong. but we've kind of forgotten when we get into impoverished countries and we keep setting them up again. >> in the pictures of the report that i did from romania, near the bulgaria border, i was stunned even -- we're now talking 1990. i was a young reporter. i wasn't a mother yet, and i was stunned by all these little children coming up to me as if they'd never seen anybody give them any affection or anything, like trying to hug me. in the village of negru voda in southern romania stands yet another of ceausescu's horrifying legacies. [ child wailing, water dripping ]

this is an asylum. it is filled to overflowing with more than 200 mentally handicapped children -- abandoned by parents who couldn't care for them and neglected by a state that wouldn't, for it considered these children useless, even though many are victims of ceausescu's own high-birth-rate policy, which banned contraception and abortion. in the months since the revolution, conditions have improved, but they are still grim by any standard. there aren't enough beds, so the children are packed in two and three at a time. some beds can't even be used because the mattresses are rotting. there is just one nurse to every 30 children, and they are rushed off their feet, just coping with the barest essentials. so the children often sit for hours in their own urine and go unwashed for days because water is severely rationed. they've been neglected for so long that even a visit from a reporter is a chance for some affection. the one doctor assigned to this asylum is a pediatrician, untrained in psychiatric

disorders. he is fighting just to keep the children alive. >> [ speaking romanian ] >> "before the revolution, three children would die every week because of the inhuman conditions here," he says. "now things are better. we've had only three deaths in the past five months. it's because we show more interest." [ children singing in romanian ] dr. uringe teaches them to sing and dance and count. he has to keep them occupied as best he can because there are no rehabilitation programs here. most of the children just lie in bed, day in and day out. there are hundreds of mentally handicapped children hidden away in asylums across this country. some foreign aid has been coming in as word of their plight gets out, but romania is strapped for cash, and dr. uringe wonders where these children rank on the new government's list of priorities. christiane amanpour, cnn, negru voda, romania. >> you know and i know and anyone who's been around children knows that the immediate impulse of a young child when they see a stranger

walk into the house is wariness. and that is correct behavior. it's normal human behavior. these children are so hungry and thirsty for any kind of one-on-one attention that they will run and cling to total strangers. and i've had that happen, and i can remember being in an institution where small, shaven-headed children -- so they're taken into this institution and their hair is shaven off because, you know, that's difficult to deal with, and it's so dehu-- exactly. but even when they're not in any way infested, their heads are shaven. it's almost punitive. "you are now number 23." >> institutionalized in a real way. >> exactly. "we haven't got time to brush your hair. we haven't got time to wash your hair." so i have literally had the experience of being crawled over by shaven-headed little children, and i can remember a little girl just crawling into my lap and holding me. and i did hug her, but i was heartbroken -- just heartbroken by it.

part of you wants to just pick her up and go. of course it does. but that's your human reaction. >> but you think it's dangerous why? >> well, it's a window into why -- the figures show us that these institutions are often centers of trafficking and horrendous exploitation. and when you have witnessed the attachment disorders of these children, which have been brought about entirely by being institutionalized, you realize just how vulnerable they are to unscrupulous people. and i think that, for me, lumos is about these children who -- i mean, i have heard heartbreaking stories. i've met children, obviously. i've visited institutions. i'm always hyperaware that, when i visit the institution, i'm seeing the best of the best, you know? and even then, i've seen horrible, horrible things. well, i visited an institution of which the staff were enormously proud, and there were three children with cerebral palsy lying together on a single bed, and that was their life - no stimulation.

>> tied practically to the bed. >> actually, yeah, yeah. i was told one of the things that i still have difficulty talking about without crying. the nurse there told me there was a little girl on the ward -- and i think she had spina bifida, but i can't quite remember. i think she did, but there was absolutely no mental impairment, is the point of this story. and she used to ask for her mother, and she knew her mother was out there. now, the culture in some of these countries is, "give us your disabled child. go away. it's best you don't think about it. go away, and try and have a healthy baby." but this little girl had loads to give, and she never saw her mother. her mother never came. and the nurse told me that she sometimes left the institution and phoned the ward and pretended to be the little girl's mother. and that would keep the little girl going for a month. i know. it's bad, isn't it? it's very bad. so, you hear quite a lot of these stories. and i emphasize that i haven't seen -- 'cause they won't let me see the worst, but, of course,

the people who are working at lumos and our extraordinary chair... georgette mulheir, she has seen the worst of the worst of the worst of the worst, and some of the things she tells me, i just -- it's mind-blowingly awful. but my husband very recently went to moldova on a field trip. i was... i can't clone myself, and i needed to do a screenplay, and neil, who is a doctor, said, "i'll go. i'll go to moldova. i'll have a look at what's going on." and i said, "oh, that would be amazing. that would be so good." anyway, he told me that he went into a room in this institution and he saw a little boy sort of this long propped up on a chair, who clearly had multiple physical issues, and neil said to me, "he was suffocating." and i said, "what do you mean he was suffocating?" he said, "well, i could tell that he couldn't breathe and he had a jaw malformation."

well, neil's a doctor, so he made a beeline for this boy, and he manipulated his jaw so the boy could breathe -- i mean, not... >> i know what you mean. opened his -- yeah. >> exactly. and he said this little boy beamed at him. and neil thought he must be five years old or so, and he turned to the nurse and, through an interpreter, said, "how old is he? and how does he normally breathe?" and she said, "well, normally, he lies facedown all day with his head sort of hanging over the edge of the bed. that brings his jaw forward so he can breathe." but, obviously, 'cause the visitors had come, they've put this poor boy into clothes and propped him up, and he's slowly suffocating in a corner. and then she said, "oh, and he's 15." >> wow. >> and he was -- and he was -- and we find this constantly with institutionalized children, that they are not physically well. they haven't grown properly. and sometimes -- and i don't think it's even a conscious thing -- you often find that children are underfed because it keeps them portable and small.

neil was pretty upset when he came home and told me all about him, and he said, "i don't think he's gonna make it." but he did make it. we got him into hospital so... >> you know, you started this really tragic story -- which has a good ending -- saying that you couldn't go because you were writing a script. >> i'm on the second screenplay for the "fantastic beasts" franchise, and no one else can write that. i'm writing it. i am the screenwriter, [laughs] so we're about to start filming, so i really needed to be on the screenplay. >> is it great? >> is the scree-- i can't say whether it's great or not. it's -- i'm enjoying it. i'm really enjoying it. >> so i asked you because i wonder what it's like to be doing that one day and then to be in this area of extreme abnormality and need and poverty and sadness. is it weird to -- >> no, it's not weird. it's not weird, no. i love writing. we all know i don't actually need to write anymore. you know, that's a given. i write because i just love

writing. it gets mep every day. i would be writing no matter what. but i suppose i've always had this other side me that really wants to -- you know, i used to work for amnesty international, and i've always had this side of me that just wants to try and make a difference, and, like many, many people in the world, i would like to make a difference. and i feel that i am really privileged, because apart from -- you know, where i'm personally privileged, but i can actually now make a much bigger difference. but i want to do it in a meaningful way, and one of the things that lumos has taught me is be very, very careful how you give. because even if you're giving with the best of intentions, you may inadvertently be doing harm. >> you mean from well-meaning donors? >> very, very, very well-meaning donors who are inadvertently propping up a system that we know -- we have nearly a hundred years of hard research that shows that even a well-run institution, even an institution set up with the best possible

intentions, will irrevocably harm the child. >> so, what is it that you can do? what does your money, the fundraising -- what is the mission? i mean, what, 8 million kids are somehow gonna be taken where? >> right. exactly. absolutely. this is the key question. so, possibly the most staggering figure in all of this is that we know at least 80% of these children aren't orphans. >> they're not orphans? >> mm-hmm. exactly. now, this is mind-blowing to most people, that -- it's in the name, right? these are "orphanages," except they're not. we know that 80% of these children have at least one living parent who, overwhelmingly, the parent didn't want to give the child up. so why are they in the institution? grinding poverty. that's the number-one reason. and then you have an inability to access education or social care or health support, medical care outside an institution, so you have a lot of children with special needs or physical or

mental handicaps -- and then, lastly, natural disasters. so, obviously, in the wake of hurricanes, earthquakes, orphanages tend to spring up and then not go. >> and so what do you do? >> right. so, the number-one thing is we -- every country's different because you're working with a very different culture and you're working with a different government. number one, how do we reunite children with their parents? that's the number-one goal, get them back to families that want them. this is doable because it is 10 times cheaper to put a child, even with special needs, back into their family than to keep them in the institution. >> really? >> it's 10 ti-- so, when you donate, if you are donating to charities and ngos that support community care, community education, you are keeping children in their families. you're keeping families together, which is infinitely better. >> money to the families. >> right. so we're giving -- not even directly to the families. often, the family themself need -- might need daycare. so we will repurpose the

institution for a daycare center, but the child's going home every night. the institution is often a major local employer, so many people who are not bad people have huge vested interest in keeping the institution going. we can retrain these people to strict nurses, social workers, and carers and foster carers and so forth. we have retrai-- so far, lumos has retrained 30,000 professionals across 34 countries, and we've got 18,000 children out of institutions. there are cases where a child can't go home. we estimate 20% are orphans. we would firstly look in the extended family. can we support the grandmother or the aunt to take the child? >> but are they happy to take them? >> overwhelmingly, yes, but because the poverty is the thing that overwhelmingly has driven the child into the institution, we need to support them and their community. >> are you welcomed with open arms, or are people looking at this do-gooding, really famous

writer and thinking, "what's she doing with our kids?" >> the important thing to know about lumos is we are not marching in there ever and saying, "[scoffs] watch us. watch us sort out this problem." in every single country we're working, there are experts on the ground -- native speakers, psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers -- who know the system's wrong, but we can go in and support them financially and with expertise to make the change. we run projects to show how we can deinstitutionalize, close institutions. so we're always working with the culture and with people from that from particular country, be it moldova -- we're currently doing some work with the u.n. in ethiopia, with child refugees in ethiopia. we're in haiti, we're working in colombia, and we've been invited in by russia and ukraine to look at their systems of care. and in -- >> 'cause those are pretty bad. >> they are bad. eastern europe had a parti-- in europe, eastern europe had a particularly shocking history of

child institutionalization. but in moldova -- i do want to say this becau i'm very proud of this. we have led the closure of 80% of institutions in moldova. >> that's pretty remarkable. >> yeah, and we're very proud of that. >> and you have all the sort of accountability and all those things -- >> completely. and i would say that if anyone, after watching this program, did want to donate, i have covered all core costs. so any money given to lumos will go into the field. a lot of the solution is donate differently and volunteer differently. that's a huge message i would like to get out to, you know, my people, the people who grew up with "harry potter," who are now all in their 20s. volunteering is an amazing thing, but volunteer in the right way. and volunteering in an orphanage is not a good thing to do. you're propping up the system, and...unfortunately, little though you might want to believe it, one of the reasons institutions are set up is to bring foreign money into the country in the form of donations but also in the form of

volunteers, wealthy western volunteers, who are also bringing currency in. >> you were talking about your project in ethiopia, i think it was. ethiopia has to deal a lot with refugees. >> right. so we're collaborating there with the u.n., working with child refugees. that's quite -- >> i mean, this is a crazy crisis. >> it's huge. it's massive. and, again, we were talking off-camera about what even has happened in calais, where children have been separated from their biological families, which makes them unbelievably vulnerable. it just makes them so vulnerable. they're physically vulnerable, they're mentally vulnerable. they're at risk of abuse, exploitation, trafficking. so, yeah, the refugee p-- this is a huge, huge issue. and, personally, i'm trying to help in a number of different ways. but the key thing is gonna be governmental... the u.k. government needs to take more children. >> and what do you think -- >> and there are many of us who would like to help that happen.

what do i think of... >> of the record of the u.k. government and refugees? >> it's poor. we all know it's really poor. they promised to take in... >> what's gonna change it? >> ...a very small number. well, in a democratic society, very, very often we find politicians are led by the public rather than the other way around, so what needs to happen, i think, is for the public to... the public need to want them in. and the answer to that is not simple, because, as we know, we have newspapers who are vehemently anti-refugee. >> we know also, amongst the refugee population, even in france, in calais, kids are disappearing. >> exactly right. after the earthquake in nepal, we know that people calling themselves aid workers descended, and we know that children disappeared. now, this is something that is so horrendous to think about that a lot of people don't want to look at it. they don't even want to believe it because, let's face it, the idea of a pedophile or a trafficker or a... i mean, it is human trafficking

whether you're buying babies or simply taking children to exploit. i mean, institutions are often set up as money magnets. children are deliberately kept hungry. the photographs are pathetic, very affecting, and this brings in money. >> i want to ask you... you know, one of the things we all learned about you was that you wrote your book sitting in a café, you know -- >> which is true. >> right. >> i know it's become a semi-myth, but it is true. >> but you've also said that one of your proudest moments or your thing that you're proudest of is being a single mom. >> yeah, i am. absolutely. yeah. >> and why were you so proud? >> well, i was proud because -- i think, at the time when i said that i was proud... so, i would say it's probably '97, '98, and i gave an interview, and i was asked about how i'd written the book, and i told the true story. and i think i was a little punchy at that time and wanting to make an assertive point about single parenthood because i had jessica, my oldest daughter, at

a time when we were being quite stigmatized. i say "we." i'm now remarried, obviously, but i feel a lot of solidarity with women raising children on their own. >> i read that you were considering writing a political book for children, young people? >> oh, that was a fairy tale. >> oh. >> yeah, and i ended up -- i don't know whether i'll ever publish that. but i... i will tell you this. the theme of my 50th birthday -- which i held at halloween, even though that's not really my birthday -- was "come as your own private nightmare." and i went as a lost manuscript. >> [ laughs ] >> and i wrote, over a dress, most of that book. i wrote it. so that book... i don't know whether it will ever be published, but it's actually hanging in a wardrobe currently. >> this is a j.k. rowling scoop, i'm sorry. >> [ laughs ] >> there's a hidden book somewhere. >> well, we're talking about a lot of grim stuff, so i thought i'd throw in something fun, you know? >> and "j.k." rowling?

>> mm-hmm. >> why the initials? >> oh. [ laughs ] because my publisher who published "harry potter," they said to me, "we think this is a book that will appeal to boys and girls." and i said, "oh, great." and they said, "so could we use your initials?" 'cause, basically, they were trying to disguise my gender. and, obviously, that lasted about three seconds because -- which is wonderful. i'm certainly not complaining, but the book then won an award, and i got a big advance from america, and i got a lot of publicity, so i was outed -- >> and you're a strong woman role model. well,oo that's right. i quite like j.k. i thini wouldn't have chosen it, and i wouldn't have chosen it for that reason either. but i was so grateful to be published -- if they told me to call myself rupert, i probably would have done it, to be honest with you. but now i actually quite like having a pen name because i feel, to an extent, that feels like an identity. and then, in private life, i'm

joanne murray, and it feels like quite a nice separation. >> well, jo murray, j.k. rowling, thank you very much indeed for joining me. >> it's been an absolute pleasure. >> pleasure. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> that's it for our program tonight and my interview with j.k. rowling. thanks for joining me for this special edition of "amanpour on pbs." goodbye from london, and see you tomorrow night. ♪ >> "amanpour on pbs" was made possible by the generous support of rosalind p. walter. ♪ you're watching pbs.

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