welcome to amanpour on pbs. tonight, south africa, nelson mandela's rainbow nation in trouble now, corruption and unemployment wreck ck his dream. my conversation with cyril. he tells me corruption is enemy number one. plus, digital addiction and the damage done. a former founding facebook executive turned whistle blower on why he believes social media is ripping society apart. ♪

>> announcer: amanpour on pbs was made possible by rosalynn walter. good evening, everyone. i'm chris man amanpour. president trump in switzerland puts him squarely in the same room with many nations he's challenged. top of that list, african leaders. the standard bearer is south africa's cyril -- poised to become president in the next elections. south africa has gone from being the economic engine of the continent, to a shadow of its former self. he told me he'll put his country back on the map and that

fighting corruption is his number one priority. cyril ramanpoza, welcome to the program. >> thank you very much, christiane, it's good to be talking to you. >> this comes at an incredible moment. you've taken over the anc. i can't help but notice your rainbow-colored scarf. but the fact is, those colors are fading very, very badly. what are you going to do to fix your couldn't up again. >> we're rebooting these colors, rainbow colors that are meant to unite our country and to renew it. we're rallying the people of south africa around a new resolve to renew our country, to rid our country of all the bad things that have been happening in the past, corruption being the key one, and the low economic growth scenario that we've been facing. and there's a great deal of excitement, new mood in the country, and i've also been

experiencing here a -- for the first time in many years, south africa has become a country of great interest, many, many business leaders. and government leaders are coming to talk to us. and they are wishing us well. and we are basically saying south africa is becoming renewed and we're open for business and investment. and here at dovos i've been really, really pleased to see business leaders coming forward and saying we're ready to invest. we can see that you're now deadly serious about renewing your country. >> mr. ramanpoza you were very close to nelson mandela, great anti-apartheid activists. mr. mandela must be turning in his grave, his legacy compromised by years of corruption now. what specifically are you going to do to give people confidence

that that corruption with impunity will come to an end, specifically what are you going to do? >> well, my campaign to become leader of the anc was pivoted on two things. renewing the anc, and taking back to the values that were espoused and subscribed to by nelson mandela, oliver atumbo and many other leaders. principles of values and honesty and truth and integrity, and good reputation. now, what i have committed to do together with other leaders in the anc as we resolved at our conference is to tackle corruption, firstly to set up a commission of inquiry, to go into the full mess that we've been having over the years of state capitol, where a few individuals, a few companies have captured our state institutions, and were just stealing money left, right and center.

we're going to do that inquiry. but at the same time we are going to be fingering those who are to blame, having them arrested, having them prosecuted, and sent to jail without any fear or favor or prejudice. that is what we have committed to do because we want to clean up south if i can so that we can begin to make it more attractive to investors. but at the same time, to deal with the issues that have been impeding growth. that have been stopping us from growing our economy. and i think we are on a roll now. we are on a new -- in a new era, and we are just going to move forward. >> it's a very tall order, and you've laid out a very clear plan. can you promise to your people that this will be more than just a few high-profile scalps that your inquiry, your commitment will be fully resourced, fully -- fully committed to this? >> yes, i'm promising to our

people, and indeed to anyone who has a deep interest in south africa, that this is not a flash in the plan. we're going to go deep into the roots of this corruption because it has been all pervasive. it has dampened the mood of our people. in the last election many people did not even bother to vote because they said this is not the anc that we know. now, after the election, people are saying the anc is back. a new mood is abroad in the country, and we're going to make sure that we do not disappoint our people. we're going to make sure that we capitalize on this mood, and give our people more than hope. i go home, as i leave today, before president trump speaks, with a bag full of commitments with regard to investors who

want to come and invest real dollars in south africa. so this has been a really fantastic journey for us as team south africa. >> well, you point out correctly that south africa has been a beacon on your continent to the world for every possible reason over the last several decades. are you the right person to turn this around? you are an anc insider. can you do it? >> yes, i believe i can do it, and i have no doubt that millions of south africans are going to rally behind us, behind me, also as the leader, behind the african nation of congress as the party, of transformation party that can further achieve the dream that nelson mandela had. because nelson mandela is really our load star. he is the one who led us out of oppression. he is the one who gave us freedom. and we are going to make sure

that we do not soil this freedom that nelson mandela gave us. and i, having worked with nelson mandela, want to take his dream forward. i'm determined to do so. >> mr. ramanpoza you will know better than i that many in the world and your country believe that your current president jacob zuma has been a leader in soiling that legacy of nelson mandela. there is a lot of talk right now about you replacing him, you taking over in some way even before the 2019 election. what can you tell us about that? >> well, right now, we've got me as president of the anc, and president zuma as president of the republican. our constitution is designed in a way where he still has 18 months to go. but in the anc we've all agreed, the national executive committecommitte committee, that we are now in a

transitional period. and this transitional period dictates that we should navigate through this transition very carefully, and delicately. we've been given the mandate to engage with president mandela -- >> president zuma? >> with president zuma. what am i saying? to engage in discussions with him, and looking at a variety of options. one of the things is, the opposition parties want to impeach him. and others want to have a vote of no confidence in him. and we are now saying, as the african national congress, let's look at all this, let's see what this transition can mean to the anc, and have thorough discussion with him. i've said, christiane, whatever we do in the end must be in the interest of the people of south africa. it must not be focusing on the interests of one person, and

president zuma is well aware of my positioning on this. and it is with this that we are going to engage in further discussions with him. >> wow. >> so watch this space as we go through with the transitional talks. >> i am watching this space right now. you are loud and clearly signaling that you hope he will take some kind of deal to step down. >> well, what we are signaling is we are going to navigate through this transition carefully. and i've also said that we do not -- we should never do anything that will show disrespect to him, or humiliate him. but this moment requires that we should all have sober minds, sober heads and make sure that we put the interests of south africa ahead of the interests of anyone of us. >> can i move now to president trump? you just said that you would be leaving before he arrived. can i ask you, if you were to

meet president trump, what would you say to him about the current apparent lack of interest by the trump administration in the african continent? and also, of course, the comments that he allegedly made describing african countries. i don't know to repeat it, but you know very well what i mean. >> yes, i know very well. if i were to bump into him, unfortunately it's not going to happen, i would say, president trump, as a leader like an important country of the united states, it is important for you not to disrespect or show any disrespect to any country in the world, or indeed to anyone that you have dealings where. and we want the united states to engage with the world, with other countries, with due regard, with respect. particularly africa. africa is the origins of humanity. and you must therefore respect your origins. president trump's origins and

his roots are in africa, the umbilical cord of his fore bears is in africa. so we expect respect from him. but we also expect him to play his role in promoting growth for the people of the world. the united states is too big an economy not to play its historic and proper role. >> so in that regard, you've seen that under the trump administration, first of all, they are apparently no ambassador, u.s. ambassador to south africa, and there still isn't the top level of state department officials for africa. and president trump seems to have given trade a much bigger role than development or aid to africa. and, in fact, he said to his african colleagues recently that africa has tremendous potential to have some friends going to your countries trying to get rich. is that the kind of engagement that you hope for from the

united states? >> no. i hope -- the engagement that we should have with the united states should be engagement that produces neutral benefits. the united states must benefit, african countries or developing countries must also benefit. and it must be a situation where we prosper one another. one must not prosper at the expense of the other. yes, we want to continue trading with america. we want america to invest in our countries so that the benefits should be mutual. so i want president trump to focus his intention on development. the world needs development. and the theme here is about a shared future in a fractured world. so we must all focus on how can we share the benefits of globalization, of global trade,

and development, all of us growing to become prosperous. we should not have prosperity only being the preserve of the united states. it must be something that's all pervasive, where all of us can benefit. >> mr. ramapoza, some african leaders actually love what president trump is saying. i'm thinking of the president in uganda. even after those offensive comments, he tweeted the following. donald trump speaks to africans frankly. africans need to solve their problems. you can't survive if you are weak. it is the africans' fault that they're weak. we are 12 times the size of india, but why are we not as strong? does he have a point? >> well, he has a point. but his response to president trump is sarcastic. but at the same time he's raising a very important point, basically saying trump is embarking on h posture because of our own weakness. let us deal with our own

weaknesses, let us improve ourselves. if president trump wanted his message, if that's what he meant, to be an effective message, he only needed to say is we want to work with you as countries that are underdeveloped so that we can help each other, you develop and we also get some prosperity. so there's a positive way of putting the message across. >> and i can't let you go without asking you about a massive and impending major crisis in capetown, which is the center of your tourism, your wine industry, what flock to south africa for, and that is an impending drying up of your water supply, april 21st could be zero day for your water. >> the climate change is a reality. if people around the world, specifically in south africa, ever thought that climate change is just a fable, or a fiction, we in south africa as regards

capetown are now seeing the real effects of climate change. we're facing a real total disaster in capetown, which is going to affect more than 4 million people. and i'm going back home, and i'm going to corral as many people as possible to put our heads together and see exactly what we should be doing, not only in the immediate term, but also in the long-term. but in the immediate term, we've got to make sure that we bring water to the people of capetown without any fail. >> you have a full agenda on your plate. thank you for joining us. >> thank you very much, christiane. it's good talking to you once again. and we want to remember another south african moment, the passing, this week, of a south african great. the legislate dare musician hugh masakala. his trumpet sounded an anthem

for the anti-apartheid movement. he's mourned as the father of south african jazz. ♪ the great hugh masakala, dead at the age of 78. we turn now to facebook, the most popular website in the world, with 2 billion users. but silicon valley giants are now facing a tech lash as we battle fake news, online extremism and social disruption. my next guest was one of facebook's most successful executives. he was the vice president in charge of driving up the users. but he recently gave an astonishing talk at stanford university warning about the

dangero dangers of social media and the impact on our society today. take a listen. >> i think in the back, deep, deep recesses of our minds, we kind of knew something bad could happen. but i think the way we defined it was not like this. it literally is a point now where i think we have created tools that are ripping apart the social fabric of how society works. >> and chamath joins me now. you know this talk at stanford created a huge ripple people are still talking about. what do you mean in your own words now about facebook, how it's disrupting social fabric as we know it. >> i think a lot of the things we do at our best are creating things that have never been thought of. what we are increasingly learning is there are not just positives of things we build, but sometimes unintended

consequences. before, the surface area of these unintended consequences were minimal. the things we were creating are not that impactful. if you would ask me would we ever see a sight that connects basically the entirety of the world? now that it's possible we have to close that chapter, and start to ask the difficult questions of how do we solve the 1% of these issues that are now really unintended, and meaningfully disrupted if left unchecked. >> just to get clear what you think, the short-term dopamine driven feedback loops we're creating have destroying society. misinformation, mistruth. it's not just an american problem, you say, not about russian ads, it's a global problem. so how do you, what is your solution to reconnecting these connections you're saying have been disrupted. >> if you think about the business models of how silicon valley works, and what has

created success in the past, what we've always tried to do is figure out something that's scarce and make it abundant. so, you know, you take companies like paypal and uber and google. what do they do? they take a thing we all want but we can't have easy access to and they proliferate it and make it abun dant. what we're learning that we need more of today is truth. what is the business model of truth? who is responsible for it? who should be creating it? what i would tell you is that in part people like myself should be responsible for figuring out what that means. but in the same way, consumers need to understand. and the reason is because you will then anoint and pick the products and services that embody those values. and so that's what i mean by that. it's time to figure out how to propagate truth. >> so obviously this became a huge, huge bone of contention during the 2016 election, and facebook has taken its share of a battering since then about it.

and as a new year message, mark zuckerberg said his 2018 mission is to fix those things that have gone wrong. but some people are saying, for instance, that even if that sort of new news feed that he's talking about had been implemented in 2015, perversely it might have magnified russian interference. some people are saying that what he's saying about this news feed may not work at all. >> i don't know who these some people are. >> facebookers. >> our relationship was forged at the -- what i will tell you him about this person is he's very determined and intelligent. the minute he focuses on something, he is probably the most guaranteed to find success. the fact that he wrote that to me gives me immense confidence that facebook is actually on the right path. >> so why, though, are some people suggesting that despite

his good will, and ha he wants to do, and forced by circumstances, why might it not work? you're the expert, the algorithm guy. >> well, i mean, i think it's a fantastic news cycle. a lot of this is just postulation and speculation. the reality is, if you take a step back, what they are doing is they are coming to terms with how this system should work. and specifically how does it work at scale? and i think at scale, what we need to do now is find places to not just amplify popularity, but to amplify, as i began this conversation, truth. and he was the first person in that message to sort of talk about the difference between the two. and so what i would say is -- at a moment in time to it rate and solve this. >> do you regret the tone of what you said in stanford? clearly you did post something afterwards, and people do believe that facebook got to you. >> well, look, facebook didn't -- facebook made me. >> and then came down like a ton of bricks on you after stanford.

>> listen, those that know me know they don't control me, nobody controls me at this point. >> but you changed your tone? >> absolutely, i have a responsibility to think about all the people i worked with, worked for, that worked for me, an immense part of the organization that's still there. to be honest with you, christiane, i am coming to terms with my own bully pulpit, and learning how to control the message, to dial it in more effectively and be more succinct, positive, offer solutions. part of it is just me recognizing that as one of the leaders of the valley now, i have to do a better job of bringing these irssues to the limelight in a way that's constructive. >> many people want to know before we move on why, for instance, facebook would not open up its databases to investigators who are looking into the russian interference in 2016? why wouldn't it do that, do you think? >> i have no idea. >> why wouldn't it? >> i have no idea. that sort of issue is the same issue that google faces every

day when somebody says open up a g mail inbox. that yahoo faces. there is a slippery slope of things that happen and it's up to those companies and the executives in the seats of power at that moment in time to make these judgment calls. i think it's very hard for us, as a peanut gallery, on the sidelines -- >> you weren't on the sidelines, you were in the middle of it. >> at the time i was in the middle, and for the last seven years i've been on the sidelines, building different things, and equally, i would say some in some cases just as important. react to president trump and the whole immigration debacle. i believe you're an immigrant. >> yeah. >> you grew up on welfare. >> yeah. >> give us a sense of your life story. >> my parents escaped a civil war. >> the in srilanka.

we dealt with a whole host of issues that other people have dealt with, depression, alcoholism, et cetera. we battled through it. i'm a testament today to some amount of luck and hard work, but also sacrifice. and what i would like people to understand is that is a value that exists everywhere. there are tremendously talented people all over the world who want to contribute and add value in the same way i've had opportunities to. when you think about immigration what we need to do is realize that that human capital, if put in a place to succeed, will literally sacrifice everything. >> and you've also been very the incredible positive force of the internet, for something more than just another food delivery app. >> the best thing to think about is we've lost sight of risk and value. it used to be the case that technologists would focus on things exceptionally valuable in the world and they turned out to be not that risky. now we've inverted, and we

invest in simple, shiny things that turn out to be not valuable. we need to course correct. we need to go after the substantive problems of the world that if were solved would create immense wealth and opportunity, that would cascade across countries. those are what we need to be inspired by. >> thank you so much for joining us tonight. >> thank you. and that is it for our program tonight. thanks for watching amanpour on pbs. join us again tomorrow night. ♪ >> announcer: amanpour on pbs was

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