>> charlie: welcome to our program. tonight, a special presentation. rap musician, businessman, and now author, jay-z. you didn't say goodbye to huhustling until you had an alb. >> what happened was -- i said, "i'm going to give this thing a real hard and difficult look." that's what i was doing for so long was i was still holding onto this -- i was afraid to let go because i was pretty successful doing what i was doing and i would not let go what i was doing so i couldn't move forward. i coul't swing forward because i was caught in this life. >> charlie: you were caught between the push and pull of one

thing or the other. >> i kept going back and forth. i finally said i'm going to let this go, i'm going to give it 120%. but in the back of my mind, i didn't think it would work. >> charlie: jay-z for the hour. coming up. >> funding for "charlie rose" was provided by the following.

>> additional funding provided by these funders. >> and bbloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications ♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> charlie: born shawn carter, why jay-z is one of the most successful entertainers around. his albums have sold 50 million copies worldwide. each of his records has reached the top of the u.s. charts, giving him more number one albums than anyone but the beatles. he has won 10 grammy awards, 10 video awards, nine b.e.t. hip-hop awards and three american music awards.

♪ keep it real saving it for carolina blue cakes check 'em out now b-l-a-c ♪ gave me one more chance busted in shut the door please come on in ♪ shawn carter volume two ♪ i know my rights you need a warrant for that letting me bloom for your wisdom for your womb for my shoes for my head >> charlie: jay-z has leveraged his success in the studio into a business empire. he was president of def-jam records, are a job called the

hip-hop oval office, currently president and c.e.o. of rock nation but his ascent to stardom originated in humble and troubled beginnings. his life started in brooklyn's marsey projects where crack cocaine consumed youth. his father left home when he was 11 which left his mother to raise four children alone. during his teen years hanging out on the street, his hunger for music often took a back seat to selling crack. today, jay-z credits rap music with saving his life. in his new book, decoded, he writes about how hip-hop took him off the streets and provided an outlet for his ambition and his anger. i spoke with jay-z last month at the brooklyn museum for a live audience. the interview took place a few miles from the bed ford stuyvesant neighborhood where he was born and raised. we had done an interview a few years ago where he talked about himself but this is a moment when, after the publication of

this book he was coming to the brooklyn museum, this giant building that houses art in its grandeur, a place that seems far different from his l life a his music, but it is a place that welcomed this home town hero, that night, and as we walked through this building you got a sense of who he is. here is part of our conversation. i have in my hand jay-z "decoded." decoded because it's about decoding rap and it's about decoding what else? >> the central theme is about decoding these rap lyrics. in order to really decode them, i had to tell the story of the generation and everybody that grew up around that time. i had to tell that story. so it's based on the lyrics but it's a lot more -- it's a very difficult book to explain in that way but it's really the story of a generation of people that grew up during a era that

was very difficult. >> charlie: you started a book before and then you pulled back on it because you thought it was too personal. why did you decide now is the time for me to write a book? >> that book was basically -- it was more personal. it was a little -- a little too personal. >> charlie: what does that mean? >> it was very difficult to read myself. i'm usually a very private person. this one had a bigger purpose, because -- you know, while i was decoding these lyrics to explain rap as poetry, it told the story of a generation. much more than just a book about me, you know, it captured a time period, all these things happening -- i thought it was more important to have that book than the black book -- that was the name of it. >> charlie: in a way, rap gave a generation a means of expressing themselves. >> yeah, and a voice for all the people who didn't have no voice, and put things into context. if you hear a song, you might have to bleep this out on, you

hear a song like the police by m.w.a., until you see the rodney king beating you don't understand the context in which they're saying it, you think it's just m.w.a., you think it's just with attitude -- just -- just really -- being provocative, but once we saw -- you know, we saw that, we was like, "wait, maybe this is really happening, maybe this happens daily" and it was it was a thing that was happening, so for us, it gave a vis to a generation of people who didn't have a voice, who were ignored, who didn't get the best schooling, who didn't get the best roads, who politicians didn't pay attention to, now they can hear ourselves -- we heard ourselves, i'm not removed from that, hear ourselves or not radio and hear our story through these songs. >> charlie: you wouldn't be sitting in that chair if you

hadn't loved to rhyme and been good at it. and also, had been lucky. because so many people that you knew in your generation didn't make it to 41. >> absolutely. yeah. it took a bit of all that -- it took a bit of a blessing from god to have a talent -- i had a talent. my first album didn't come out until i was 26 so for so long i ignored that talent, it took a bit of you luck because the people i was with daily was -- a personal friend of mine, you know, went to jail for 12 years and me and him would be together every single day, so i know that that same fate was awaiting me -- we would have got picked up at the same time had i not been away or been in london somewhere pursuing music, i would have been in jail for 12 years. >> charlie: so you had some near misses. >> yeah. >> charlie: being shot atment >> yeah. plenty. >> charlie: yeah.

[laughter] >> charlie: your mother. there was music in your house -- >> my mother is here today. [applause] [cheers] >> charlie: there was music in your house when you were growing up in the projects. >> plenty music. yes. >> charlie: that was what was the thing that you could hold on to. >> i didn't know -- i didn't know that i would apply it in such a way. i was just really -- you know, being entertaining. we would play music in the house when we would clean up the house and the house smelled like pine sol. crawl y'all know that, right? the windows open,ras blowing, music playing -- often, i was just enjoying the sound, michael jackson, temptations, stevie wonder -- i think my mom may have had the first rap record ever -- like a king tut -- king james iii. >> charlie: king james iii. >> yeah.

>> charlie: your dad left home when you were 11. what impact did that have? >> well, you know, for anyone who has been through that, as a kid, as a child, you look at your father -- that's your hero -- like a superhero, larger than life -- he's actually really larger than life -- bigger -- and -- you know, that whole thing -- you know, "my dad can beat youred dad" thing is just a smaller -- can beat your dad" thing is just a smaller example of how you feel as a kid, so to have that removed -- i don't know what's worst, not meeting your dad ever or having your dad and him not being there -- that sense of loss and abandonment, that affected who i was as a person for years -- even today. >> charlie: but he left you his record collection when he left. >> he didn't leave it to me, no. >> charlie: he left it. >> it was never that conversation. i think it went like, "get out and leave the records."

[laughter] >> i can't say for sure. i wasn't there. my mom is tough, mom. she's tough. she's tough. >> charlie: when you first heard rap, how old were you? >> i had to an around nine. i started when i was nine -- because i tartd the next day after i heard it. >> charlie: you came home and you started -- >> writing. >> charlie: writing down -- >> writing all kind of -- whatever, anything that i could think of. >> charlie: startedhyming at that time? >> yeah. >> charlie: and you kept that notebook for a long time. >> yeah. for a while. and then i got -- as we moved around, it got lost somewhere but i used to write -- you know, like obsessively, you know, i used to write for hours upon hours and hours, i would write into this notebook, sideways, on top, crooked, it was a mess of words, and as i started getting further and further away from that notebook, as i started

moving around in the street a bit, i was further removed away from that notebook so i started these thoughts -- i wrote so obsessively that these thoughts would come to me -- you know, i would be in the street and people would be talking to me and i was like -- so i would go into the bodega, and i would buy a quart of water or something, anything, scribble on a notebook, put it in my pocket until i got back to the notebook and transferred it, but as i got further and further away from the notebook i had stories in my mind so i started memorizing four or five songs at a time, you know, until it just became normal to -- >> charlie: when were you introduced to, as a hustle, crack cocaine? >> i don't know what age, but pretty early on. >> charlie: but it became a business? >> yeah. yeah. >> charlie: yeah. you never used it? >> no. crack cocaine -- no.

come on, man. [laughter] >> that's hard-core, man. >> charlie: i know, i know. >> a little weed. ballantine ale, guinness stout. >> charlie: how did you get in the business? >> it's fairly easy. growing up during that time, we have to put the time -- we have to remember -- the time we're talking about, we're talking reaganomics, we're talking crack cocaine was everywhere, you smelt it in the hallways, you saw it in empty vials on the curb, floating by in the water -- it was just everywhere. it wasn't difficult. it was one conversation. it was my friend who was my age who introduced me to someone else and we -- who was maybe two years older than us and we had a conversation and -- you know, it was almost like a job interview. >> charlie: tell me about that. >> it was like, "you got to be serious about this. you can't be playing about this.

this is, like, serious." "you got to not get high on your own supply." and, "you know, you got to be a man" -- some of the things stuck, like integrity -- i'm not promoting that anyone sell crack cocaine -- but the integrity and -- you know, these are the things that, today, day to day, some of those things i survive on. my instincts. i didn't go to princeton, harvard, or anything like that to know business the way i know it, it's more my instincts, things that i feel and these are things that i learned because you survive on instincts. instincts in the street mean life or death. you have to accept the situation, you have to read it, you have to know trends -- those trends, a bunch of guys with trenchcoats coming around the corner -- so i learned a couple things during these experiences

as well, but it wasn't -- to answer your question, it was a chance meeting. it wasn't difficult at all. it was everywhere. >> charlie: this is the 1980's and there is a parallel life you're leading, though. you're writing rhyme. you're writing rap. and you are hustling at the same time. how did you go back and forth? >> i would -- i would -- i would go away for eight months, a year or so and then i would come back -- how it started was, i was messing with a guy named jazz, went to london -- and he was the first one that made me see, wow, you could get a record deal from this, this is not just rapping on the corner in the neighborhood, i would do something like that for two months and then i would be gone for a year, then there was another guy from brooklyn, clark kent, we started doing demos and i woulded come back and maybe rhyme at a party and then i would go again for another year and a half, so i was, like, hustling, i started from trenton, then i went to

maryland, then i went to virginia, i was going further and further south and further and further away from that dream, and as -- you know, i was being more successful, rap at that time wasn't in the place that it is now as far as artists becoming business men or getting paid. what happened, most times, is we would pull up in mercedes and lexuses and all these big cars and these rappers would pull up in a turtletop, maybe 12 of them in there -- >> charlie: you were looking at the mercedes and the turtletop and say "i'll hustle more"? >> yeah, prolonged it for a long time because it was -- it was like -- you know, these guys -- it was sad, in a way -- these guys were working so hard and they're missing their families and they're away from their families and they're working hard and they're performing on stage and at the end of the day some other person is being -- is getting rich from all of their talent, so we didn't really look at rap as an escape until, like,

the mid 1990's when people started really making money, russell simmons, then the master peas, then it was something serious around that time. >> charlie: but you understood, also, that crack cocaine was doing terrible thingso the neighborhood. >> later on. at the time, when you're doing it, you don't even think of the repercussions. it's almost a survival thing. you know, and after a while, after the survival thing it becomes an adrenalin thing. you start being addicted to the rush and the feel and the excitement of pulling up and nice cars, et cera, you don't think about the damage that's being done -- you're immature, you're young, you don't think about nauntil later on when you become aware of who you are and the effects of what you are doing is having on the community. we was laughing at people who were -- right now, today it's sad. as a kid, it was funny. if i'm being completely hoevent

-- >> charlie: you did this between the ages of 13 and 22. >> yeah. a little longer. >> charlie: a little longer? >> yeah. my first album came out when i was 26. basically, until i closed that door. >> charlie: you didn't say goodbye to hustling until you had an album. >> what happened was i said i'm going to give this thing a hard look, that's what i was doing for so long, was i was still holding onto this treat, i would still afraid to let go because i was pretty successful doing what i was doing sdpild not let go what i was doing so i couldn't swing forward because i was caught in this life. i knew i was going back to the street. i just knew it -- in my heart, i was like i'm going to give it -- i wanted to do it, i had passion for it, and i said, you know, i just gave it -- i just let the

other thing go. >> charlie: why were you good at the hustle? >> i don't know. gifted mine or something, i don't know. i have no idea. a lot had to do with -- you know, who you are as a person, you know, person of -- a person of respect and integrity. that has a lot to do with it. >> charlie: did you have more confidence in your ability at the hustle than you did at hip-hop? >> at the time, yeah -- it wasn't even close. >> charlie: wasn't even close? >> yeah. i was thinking that rap wasn't going to work out and i was going back so that was almost like -- to me, it was a safety net. that's very difficult to call drugs a safety net where you are possibly -- nine times out of 10 you're going to jail or getting killed. that was my safety net. >> charlie: you were shot at. it was very close. the time i read about when you were shot at, it could have been

all over. >> it could have been over a lot of times. >> charlie: a lot of times? >> yeah. >> charlie: you think you were lucky? >> yeah. >> charlie: just lucky? >> yeah. this goes with believing in certain things and believing in the universe and believing in a just universe that my heart -- you know, i didn't have any malcontent in my heart for anyone, so i think -- and when i became aware of the damage i was doing i tried to move away from the damage i was doing. >> charlie: the damage that crack cocaine was doing? >> yeah, i think in some sort of way -- there was some sort of good karma even in -- that's why human beings are so complex, you know, everything is not black and white, you can't say that guy is a drug dealer, he's a bad guy, or that guy is a lawyer, he's good or that guy is a preacher, he's great, because we all seen the complexity of human

beings, we've seen preachers do wrong, we've seen drug dealers do good, we've seen all kinds of things. >> charlie: tell me about writing "99." the story behind the lyric. >> it started out as a joke then i used real stories and things that happened in my life to further -- you know, twist the joke, so the second verse is "99 problems" is really complex on many different levels. it deals with right and wrong. it deals with gray. it deals with racial tension. it deals with all sorts of things. it's these guys who take off on adventure in a maxima, and they're going down -- [laughter] >> ok. they -- they're going down the highway and they're doing wrong things. they have drugs in the car. and they're riding down the new jersey turnpike, which was a super route back then -- major route -- and during that time, it was this whole thing of how -- because of all this stuff

that was going on on the turnpike, police were racially profiling everyone so that the whole thing "driving while black" was created during that time so if a state trooper sees a car full of black guys, no reason, he pulls them over. that's why they're driving 55 in a 54, we wering everything right, seat belts on, baseball caps off, and -- yeah. >> charlie: go ahead. >> so he pulls us over and this conversation happens, you know -- and i immediately tell the people what sort of person he is because he says, "are you carrying a weapon on you? i know a lot of you are, a lot of you are." it's a racial statement. i was -- >> charlie: a bit of profiling then? >> i gave you the character right there and now you have the guy in the car who is used to getting away with things -- he's used to being a -- he's slick. he's done this before. so he knows a bit of the law. he knows you can't search his glove compartment or his trunk

without a warrant -- don't you guys try this -- you can't search his glove compartment or trunk. and th the guy answers back, "you some type of lawyer or something, somebody important or something?" so this whole dynamic is happening and they hold us for so long. -- they couldn't hold us for so long. they brought a canine unit, we're going to find it and we're going to be in major trouble so we're waiting there and we're really nervous because we know he has us dead to right, he has no reason but once they find it all that stuff goes out the window, so finally he gets -- whatever, he says, "you guys get out of here." as we're leaving, a car comes screeching up the other side of the highway and on the side is the canine unit. so it was coming on the call, and that's where 99 problems but

change one. >> charlie: you don't write much about this but tell me about the lance rivera episode. >> that -- i got to give you the whole context and the story about that. i had that fight 700 times before making music, and as i was taking the trajectory towards music, i was trying to be super careful that that sort of thing happening -- you got to figure we coming out of these neighborhoods or surrounded by this sort of thing, so i thought i was being super careful with my career up until that point, and -- you know, we seen each other at a club, we had words over bootleg records and you know, things like that, i tried to walk away -- i walked away, actually, and i was really upset about the whole thing and then my instincts and my temper and everything from where i -- you know, who i used to be at that time, you know, kicked back in -- went back, and it's like a bunch of guys and it really got

out of hand but it was simply -- you know, a club fight -- i don't know what you call those things -- >> charlie: club fight. >> club fight. yeah. [laughter] >> charlie: he was stabbed? >> yeah. he was stabbed, but he went home that night without taking a aspirin and he was pretty fine. but in the next day, he was a record producer. i'm like, "i'm a record producer." excuse me. but i am a record producer, but you know, the way they painted it -- you know, this record producer, you would think it was this guy, he's from fulton treat, i'm from marcy, we're two guys in the club and we had a good fight and i think we won. he was fine. don't feel bad for him. he was -- -- [laughter] >> charlie: you copped a plea of

some kind. >> yeah. >> charlie: why did you do that? >> well, then -- wasn't really worth it to me. for a couple reasons. it wasn't worth it. it wasn't worth to drag it out. it wasn't worth anything, you know, and on the other side, puff and shine had just went through, like, this major trial about -- this was a little more serious -- a shooting in the club, and -- and i think it was another trial going on at the same time, and all the attention was on puff case. from there -- it was a huge lesson for me that even thinking i was being careful, i wasn't careful enough to never put myself in that situation again and you know, just be more careful with how i was moving and -- you know, take the lesson, take the smack and keep moving. >> charlie: who stabbed him? >> i'm not going to -- come on, man. not even on probation anymore,

man. that thing is over. >> charlie: you mentioned pop. when did you two get to know each other? >> we met in brooklyn -- big was doing -- on the set of "dead presid" d his phone kept ringing and he kept -- man, puff is going to be mad at me behind -- he kept hanging the phone up. you know, we were having such a good time, we were -- you know, playing monoppoly with real money -- >> charlie: this is you and big? >> yeah. we were shooting a video and he didn't want to believe and i think total was having a show at the apollo and they wanted to come out and do -- you know that song they did. act up my homey total -- yeah. he wanted him to come do that verse and he wasn't really feeling it at the time, we were having such a good time, so puff drove to brooklyn -- i seen,

like, a bunch of cars pull up and i had major respect for him -- you know, just the fact that he would come to brooklyn -- you know, to come get big to go to apollo, and i was like, man, i think that guy -- because i didn't really look at him like that, but he came in -- come on, man, we got to go. >> charlie: that said to you that puff's got -- >> let me know puff cut the checks at that moment. when big left, i was like, "oh, puff cut the checks" because the whole time he was like, "i ain't going nowhere." puff came -- [laughter] >> then i went on the tour and they treated me horribly, but him himself, he was great about it, every time i would have a problem he would try to fix it but you know, at that point i'm

like, man, i'm my own man, i don't want you fixing my problems, when we get back to new york i'm leaving the tour and i'm going to go out on my own tour, which turned into the hard knock life tour and for meeting him during those times it was always a respectful thing, and that someone was doing the same thing that i was doing and being successful with what he was doing -- >> charlie: he was successful. he was successful first? >> oh, yeah. >> charlie: yeah? >> way more. >> charlie: you were doing what he was doing. >> well, yeah. you had to point that out. [laughter] >> i will cop to that. >> charlie: ok. you have been competitors but you have been friends. >> we were respectful for a while, and then we slowly started becoming friends -- you know, when you respect someone so much and they're not moving anywhere and they keep doing it, slowly you have more to talk about. >> charlie: but he's a role model too. he's a guy who was a producer. he's a guy who was a

businessman. he was a guy who was an entrepreneur. hes a guy in the clothing business. >> i see him more as a parent -- he hada a two-year head start. i see someone like russell -- >> charlie: he was earlier. >> he was more a peer of mine, yeah. >> charlie: tell me about big and what he meant to you and what he meant to rap. >> i think what he meant to rap -- i mean, brooklyn rap, he was everything, big daddy cane, then there was big. it was like our flag, our umbrella, it was everything for us -- he coined phrases like spread love is the brooklyn way and all these different things so he was everything for us, as a friend, just a charming, charismatic guy who -- you know, just lit up a room anytime he entered it. >> charlie: and a close friend. >> yeah. >> charlie: and an influential

friend. >> yeah. >> charlie: absolutely. smith said this, writer in "rolling stone" like biggie, he can produce ecstatic hip hop, the kind of urban lifestyle fantasies that are so joyful they feel like gospel but for me his tupac-like truth telling but concern the real lived experiences -- he's the manufacturer of black dreams who, with all the real-world consequences attached -- he's a survivor like dre, a joker like snoop and every young man like 50 and a c.e.o. like diddy and he has a lovely instantly recognizable flow, humane, witty, and wonderful at telling tales, one of rap's best narrators.

[applause] >> i like that. >> charlie: she got it? >> thank you. >> charlie: tell me about tupac. >> can i explain something here tonight? that i hope -- i hope -- i hope y'all clap because i'm about to say exactly what y'all think -- white people always -- -- >> charlie: be careful, be careful. >> i can say this because i'm so not a racist -- white people call tupac -- >> charlie: i'm sorry. >> two-pack. if it was two-pack, it would have a "k." you're not the first. hopefully, after tonight, you will will be the last.

[cheers] [applause] >> tupac was an extraordinary, visual, emotional, passionate artist -- a lot of times people -- they have a knock on him about he wasn't the most technically skilled rapper but those aspects of what he was doing was just as difficult or more difficult than just having an incredible flow or being -- having great metaphors because if you're a great lyricist and you have metaphors you have the entire dictionary at your disposal so you can do just about anything with your voice and flow, granted that you have that talent. he was telling stories that had linear thoughts and emotions and

-- you know, multiple levels and he was digging deep on these songs like "dear momma" and "brenda's got a baby" just one of the best ever. >> charlie: and his impact. >> we still right now, day to day, artists compete with his impact. >> charlie: you believe -- and part of the reason you wrote this book is that rap is poetry. talk about that. >> i just explained that the story writing of tupac, if you put those lyrics on a piece of paper anywhere you would say it's poetry for one -- for me, when rap is great, it can take ordinary experiences and make them extraordinary. when you put them in song, when you -- when you match that story with rhythm, rhyme, flow, et

cetera, et cetera, i'm just really explaining it. it is -- it already is poetry. i'm merely decoding it and decoded it further -- the argument but it is -- you know, whether this book comes out or not. >> charlie: were you a born performer? or did -- were you not so good and you had to learn? >> live performer? >> charlie: uh-huh. >> i was a terrible live performer in the beginning. my first show, i forgot the lyrics. dame was there. >> charlie: damon dash? >> damon dash. he doesn't wrap at all. i told him, "finish" and he looked at me, he was like, "i don't rap." [laughter] >> so i started from there, thep i went to -- you know, a very -- then i went to -- and even today, i pick one spot on the stage and i would stand there the whole time, and lucky for

me, i had, like -- you know, really long -- you know, drops so i could just do these raps and people could hear them, go, "oh," but i wasn't really a good performer at all. >> charlie: here is what they say about you. at some point, because you didn't have paper at hand where you could write down the rhymes that you learned to memorize so that you didn't really have to have the words written down for you. so that was a benefit for you on stage because you had learned to write without writing it down? >> it didn't help me in the beginning. >> charlie: when did you become good and how did you become good other than doing it? >> i watched great performers and i wanted to become a better performer. a lot of times, with rap, we don't -- we don't -- with rock bands, they tour, they have 200 shows before they have an album out because when they go on

stage they've done the work, they have been on the circuit so long, a lot of times with rap the music leads first so you have a hit record and they throw you on the stage with summer jam with a mic and it's like 50,jr people and you come out and you are like shocked and you grab -- it's like 50,000 people and you come out and you're like shocked and you grab your nuts and you are like -- >> charlie: now i understand why rock stars are always grabbing their crouch. >> you feel nakeded. you like -- [laughter] >> and th you cut the -- cup the mic so the sounds can't get out and it sounds just like this. and then you argue with the sound man. and then the show's over.

>> charlie: that's what that's about. >> i'm decoding the whole thing, guys. >> charlie: the baggy pants, what's that about? >> that comes from the street. >> charlie: does it really? >> the baggy pants, the big jacket, whoelt thing -- i shouldn't be saying this, there is some guy on his route to becoming me right now that's still back there that i don't want to give everything away. >> charlie: you have been criticized and others have been criticized for lyrics. what do you say to people who say it's misogynistic, and enough of this lack of esteem? >> i would say, well, you have a point, life, some of it is misogynistic and some of it is cr, you know, and some of it is imitation of what's real but i don't think anyone can make a blanket judgment on a form of music or a form or a race of people or generation of people

without really understanding what's being said, unless you understand -- unless it has context, medical center you understand what's being said, how could you make a judgment? of course some of the words and some of the relationships are fleeting because that's what's happening -- most artists get a deal when they're 16, 17 years old. they haven't had mature relationships. they have had relationships like this, "oh, you're the rapper. can i come in your room? you leave the room i'm leaving town." going to do the same thing next night and that's just honest. it's an honest portrayal. until you start having a relationship, ain't no will become big pimp man will bebeco song cry and with much more depth which will become venus vs. mars which you see the growth in the music. a lot of times, you don't. but for the most part, unless you -- >> charlie: i can see growth in

your music. [applause] >> charlie: tell us the story whithink it had to do with clarity -- moments of clarity when eminem came to you and he was wearing a bulletproof vest and that said what to you? >> it said that his life was going in the wrong trajectory because he was arguably the biggest recording artist on the planet at that time -- he had sold 10 million records here and maybe 18 million world wide, and you know, i know eminem is -- he's more of a underground rapper like he just loves rap in its purist sense -- i'm not speaking for him, i didn't think he had the stomach for some of the other things and being

thrown into that, it was sad for me. >> charlie: what did you say to him? >> it wasn't really my business. he came to produce a song, "the moment of clarity" on black album and i thought to myself, man, that's really sad -- you know, i think i had just come off vacation somewhere and my life was -- my life was great. >> charlie: your life is great, by the way. >> it's ok, thank you. [applause] >> and i just know -- that's not what he wanted. he wanted to get his music heard and he wanted to be successful and he didn't want all the other things that came with it and i just thought it was unfortunate and that's what happened sometimes -- imagine that happening to him and he's not even from there. it happens with rappers. we kim from the neighborhood, we get a record deal, we can't just cut it off. you have baggage. you have your life. it's not like you become someone else when you sign a record deal. you are still who you are. >> charlie: which is an interesting issue. you had such a richness of

experience that you could rap about. do you still have the same kind of richness of experience that you can write about? or are you distant from that now? >> my first album came out with -- i was 26 years old. i'm only 14 years removed from that. i got at least 12 more years of this -- [applause] >> i was making sure the math was correct. >> charlie: it's fine. tell me about december 4. >> my mom was actually -- she guest-starred on that record. >> charlie: tell me about it. >> it was "the black album." >> charlie: your greatest. >> thank you. thank you. [applause] >> i thought -- i thought i was making my last album and i was requesting to go into the executive -- you know, boardroom forever and i wanted this album to be my most personal album so

on i started it off with my birthday and i ended it with a song called "first song" which is actually the last song. >> charlie: you love making great art. >> absolutely. >> charlie: so why did you retire at onetime? >> i was making an album at that point every single year, 1996 up until that point, an album every year, 10, 20 features in between so two things. i didn't want to just make an album every year because it was november or -- i didn't want to take for granted the thing that saved my life, for one. you know, and for two, it -- you know, it felt like i had a bigger responsibility for the culture -- to show it in a different light. most people put out two or three halbums and then it's like where are they now and vh-1 specials and things like that, thought i had a responsibility to the culture to show it in a different light that we can ascend to executive levels and who better to coach the players than the people who played the

game. really, i can relate to an artist in a different way. an artist can't tell me, "you don't know, i'm telling you this is the way they say it on the street." i'm like to reach me, that's not what they're saying. in a way, i can have the conversation with an artist on a different level. i have been in the studio. i have had records that didn't do so good. i have had -- you know, to write from a place of -- when i wasn't as confident as i was -- i wrote when i was on top of the world. all these different things and nuances to being an artist, i think -- you know, i mean, who better to coach the players? i thought it was my time to do that, like russell had done for our generation as well, but i didn't -- what i didn't factor in was the love for recorded music and how that would have a pull on on me and how that would bring me back, you know, to the -- you know, thing i love most.

>> charlie: what do you want to do? what's your amicus curiaebition? >> charlie: what's your ambition? >> shaq td asked me that in the car. again, i want to take all those things, all those feelings and all the things -- i want to make the extraordinary ordinary. when you see covers with warren buffett, that shouldn't be a surprise, that shouldn't have a clap on the album, i probably sell more magazines than warren buffett. i should be in front of him. [applause] >> he has way more money than me and he's way sharper and he's with the waernd, i believe -- he's super intelligent, but to take all those things, make the extraordinary things ordinary like it should happen all the time. that's pretty much my goal. [applause]

>> charlie: you don't mind a challenge? >> no. i think for the most part that was that old way of thinking and that old guard that this music is here, this music is here, if we take away all the titles of music, we take away this is rock and roll, this is country, this is blues and this is jazz, we strip it down, it's just the same thing. >> charlie: explain that. it's just the same thing, meaning what? >> meaning that we all play different instruments -- rock, electric guitar, folk music is that little folk round thing -- [laughter] >> charlie: what? >> jazz -- you know, at its core, at its core, it's just about human emotion. it's about passion. it's about pain. it's about fear. it's about aspiration. we're all basically the same -- we're human beings. we all have the same struggles and the same dreams and that's what music does. it connects with that emotion.

when they say universal is the universal language because it's really -- when they say music is the universal language. it's about emotionon. when you get to the emotion, that's when you are successful about whatever music your playing. >> charlie: "love is the only thing that stands the test of time." and you thought that rap should get back to love. >> yeah, in many ways -- in many ways because love could be m.w.a. saying f the police, that's a love for their neighborhood, they want to protect it, they don't want to be hurt or injured or love could be lauren hill -- the miseducation of lauren hill, great art for the sake of art not a dance song. that's not love. that's you're thinking. that's trying to be successful. i want to make the club song, the party song, the girl song, the dog song -- the whatever song, when you're making music like that, you know, the

southern song -- -- when you're making music like that, that's not love, you're thinking -- the blueprint was made out of love, it was made out of feeling, it was made out of this young lady's apartment and all the music she played and getting -- i'm talking about my mother right now -- that sort of emotion. it was just -- it was made for the sake of that -- you know, college dropout. it's love. >> charlie: watch this clip. here it is. ♪ wherever she lacks come over her shoulder when i'm off track mama is keeping my focused so let's down like it's supposed to be the oh-three bonnie and clyde be my girlfriend ♪

be my boyfriend all i need is a to be my girlfriend to be -- be my boyfriend ♪ [applause] >> charlie: impressed. >> i don't know why i let her wear that boston hat. she took the "b" a little too far. [applause] >> that's the thing i thought of when i saw -- how my mind work. forgive me. >> charlie: i just want to watch you get out of this. >> i was thinking the same thing. i was like "how is he going to get me into this?" >> charlie: wouldn't it be great to have a young jay-z? [applause] >> yeah, i think that would be great.

i have a young jay-z right here. look at him. my nephew. stand up for a second. watch this. turn around. [applause] [cheers] >> charlie: you've got everything except one thing. children. do you think about it? >> well, i grew up around -- my house was filled with -- you know, children, and people, and -- you know, just a bunch of people, so you know, one day -- i believe in the universe. when the time is right and the moon is right -- >> charlie: stars and moon -- >> yeah, wines is cold. >> charlie: is it the right time? >> you will know when it's the right time but you're not going to find out on "u.s. weekly." it's killed me when people -- five times. >> charlie: five times they thought -- >> they didn't think, they actually -- they wrote it.

they put it in the magazine. >> charlie: i once asked you did you think about movies? and you said -- this was write after "american gangster" and the music for that, so where are you in your head about movies? >> i think i'll produce movies pretty soon. i'm actually leaving here to go to l.a. before i go to australia and i think i'll produce a movie at some point. as far as acting, i don't know if i have the talent to -- what's so funny about that? >> charlie: maybe movies. ? . >> charlie: but you don't think you have -- >> charlie: yeah. but you don't think you have the talent to act? >> have you ever seen -- i'll give you some movies. >> charlie: you know others that you could recommend that didn't have talent? >> no, no, no. i know others that i was in that was not so good. i saw myself on screen and i was like that's not for me.

>> charlie: you saw yourself on screen and you and bono could be together. that's going to be great. among all the musicians you know, who do you admire today? >> that's out? >> charlie: yeah. >> bono would be one of those. >> charlie: because? >> people that really care so much. chris martin is -- like >> charlie: -- >> charlie: he's a good friend. >> yeah. people that care so much. kanye west -- like people that care so much about their music that it's like -- you know -- it overcomes them, that sort of thing is -- i'm impressed by that, you know. >> charlie: what's your obligation to pay back? >> for me, i think the most important thing is -- one, to lead by example, because everything i'm going to do is not going to be right, so -- i mean, in my life, as a human

being. as far as pushing the kultdure, as far as i can take it, i think that's my responsibility because it's the thing that can save my life so i want to make sure that thing is better when i leave it than it was the day whiwalked into it. as far as, like, on a human level, i think the reason that i'm here is to have certain opportunities that most people -- or not everyone has. that's why i have ia scholarship program, because i think given the opportunities -- bill gates is not bill gates if he's not a couple blocks down from the computer and he gets the computer -- access to a computer earlier than everyone else -- you know, such and such and so forth and he becomes who he is, so that opportunity had a huge part in -- in who he is. if i could provide some sort of opportunity, i think it's my -- something i have to do, and just on a human level, water is

another thing that's important to me because -- teter, i mean, it's the most basic of needs and to know that so many millions of people today, right now, still don't have water, like -- it's like one on the list, it's like water, it's like -- sad, you know, and on a human level, everyone should have access to water, i mean, we all believe that, and so just opportunity in life. >> charlie: congratulations on this book. >> thank you. [applause] >> charlie: the book is "jay-z decoded," that's what we have been talking about, we're at the brooklyn museum talking to a young man. [applause] >> charlie: who came out of brooklyn to make extraordinary music, to make a difference. and i am pleaseded to call him a friend.

thank you, jay-z. >> thank you. thank you, man. ♪ captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org ♪ ♪