>> by r boy a very pretty girl but just by people doing interesting things and i think people like to talk about that stuff and they love to talk about what they're doing and also i like to laugh. so, you know, somebody like friendly i love and people that... and there's people... and the person i really like... i feel the most comfortable with is charles sach chi, who is the most intelligent man i'm ever

met. >> rose: we continue with debo devonshire, she's the dowager desk shire, one of the mitford sisters and she had known almost everyone. harold macmilan to you was known as old harold. >> yes. >> rose: it is said jack kennedy the president of the united states referred to the prime minister as uncle harold. >> of course he did because we used to talk about him. >> rose: uncle harold this and uncle harold than. but but they were the most unexpected pair to have made great fends, which they did. >> rose: they admired each other greatly, did they not? >> yes. >> rose: two interesting people, pigozzi and devonshire when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: jean pigozzi is here. johnny to his friends, he is a businessman, a photographer, an art collector and much more. born in paris, educated at harvard, he has been taking pictures for most of his life. he's just published his first

book of photographs in some 19 years. it's called catalog." "vanity fair" has written of him "part 21st century renaissance man, pis pig goez zi is a living exexception to the proposed rule that they don't mike 'em like that anymore." i am pleased to have him here for the first time and it's about time: welcome. we've got a lot of life to talk about. here is the book we've been talk about. why do you call it that? >> well so being dyslexic i don't even know the alphabet from a to z. so i decided i have to come up with a name. so i said deraisonne means organized. and this is a catalog that's not organized. becae it's fun. it starts with dogs and ladies and food and travel all mixed up but i think the mixing is quite

good. i didn't do the editing. i tried to do it for two years and gave up and the editor of the book did it and some other friends helped me. i couldn't do it anymore. >> rose: define your journey and we'll look at photographs that represent the journey. >> my journey started as a kind of normal one. my father was a big self-made italian businessman who came to paris and started a company and he died when i was 12 and then i went to a few different schools, the jesuits and all that, and then i went to... and then through a miracle i got into harvard. >> rose: tell this story because it's an interesting story. you're being interviewed by somebody in france and they say answer these two questions, sir, and i'll get you in harvard. >> i completely failed on my s.a.t.s. i had no idea... being dyslexic i was not good. so in those days to get into harvard you had to do an interview and in those days there was a bank called irving

trust, i don't think it exists anymore. so the president of the european urban trust was an ex-harvard guy so i was there in my suit and tie and he said where are you from? i said i was originally from torino in italy. he said "i'm going to ask you two questions. what's the best restaurant in torino. i told him. and he said one more question, if you get into it, i'll get you into harvard. he said what's the season for truffles? he said you're into harvard. >> rose: first person ever got into harvard because he knew the seasons for truffles. >> even though i doesn't like truffles very much, i respect truffles. it's a very important thing in my life. >> rose: did you stay at harvard long? >> i did and i finished. i finished. i have a magna cum laude or something like that. with honors and everything. i didn't do the most difficult thing. i started by doing economics and i failed miserably. so then i went into vishl and environmental studies which had nothing to do with the environment. it was making movies, i studied

art history. and it was in this weird building and i did it. >> rose: you have had this capacity to shift five or six years. is it just because off curious mind? >> i have a curious mind. i think the day you stop being curious you can stop living. and i feel that obviously if you do the same... let's say you're a carpenter from the age 206 on until you're 70. if you're not a complete idiot you become a great carpenter. >> rose: yes. >> or if you say you're a great analyst, financial analyst. but i'm amazed that people can do the same thing all their life. i find it boring. after five or six yea, you understand the ropes, how it works. so there's new things out there. internet is a new thing. i'm interested by high tech ecology. now i'm interested by japanese art. >> rose: and your interested in science and medicine and the environment and... >> very much so. very much so. i'm not a scientist and three quarters of the project that

they do in my lab in panama i have no idea what they're talking about but i'm interested and i want to learn more. they're interesting people. >> rose: how much of your success, satisfaction has been because you make friends well? because you enjoy friends and because you are curious and you listen to them? >> i think listening is an incredibly important thing. so few people listen. i'm always amazed. you meet a very important person, a man or a woman with something great to say and people yak and yak and yak. they don't listen to him. i have no interest in hearing about myself. >> rose: me, either. >> so that's why i don't read articles about myself. so i'm interested in sucking up as much as i can. so that's what i want to do with an interesting sign technical assistance, an interesting businessman or interesting artist. i want to hear. as i don't read books it's my only way of getting information.

i can watch t.v., i can listen to taped books which i don't always do. >> rose: mentor have played a role in your life. >> oh, huge. a great architect. people like chris blackwell. people like mick jagger. >> rose: all right, let's talk about some of them. mick jagger has had what influence? what did you learn from snick >> i tell you one thing i learned from mick. he never talks about himself. he's talking a lot. he's never silent. you can ask him a question, what was in your had when you wrote "satisfaction." but he's very interested in history. he will ask about you. he's a wonderful man and he's a great guest. you invite him for dinner he makes everybody laugh and all that. some other people only talk about... i mean let's say julian snapple, he's a friend of mine, he's 98% interested in himself. he brings everything back to himself. it's incredible. it's the science i'm doing. >> rose: he does that well.

>> genius. and another... perhaps one of the most important people. i met him... i can't remember if it was in '75 or '76 at a beverly hills hotel at the pool. and a friend of mine introduced me. we were wearing the same brooks brothers polo shirt and we started speaking and it's a friendship that lasted until he died. 20 years or something. and i had some of the funniest moments and the most incredible moments with him. he taught me three things. never go to the office before 12:00, business can be fun and women like to have sex. >> rose: (laughs) he had to teach you those things? >> well, never go to the office, that was easy because, you know. business can be fun. >> rose: you knew that. >> well, not so true because people grew up to go to work. >> rose: well, that has to do with the kind of work you

choose. folly or passion. >> yeah, but some people are brain surgeons and think it's fun to dig a hole... >> rose: well, i think they... the brain's a complex thing so by definition it's an interesting and challenging organ to work with. >> but another guy drives a plane, he goes from paris to tokyo, does he find... >> rose: and women? >> women like to have sex. well, when i was a kid in france they tell you the most horrible things about women. that they have teeth down there. that they're horrible. that having sex hurts them. that it's something nice they do to you. that it stays in your head. and one day i discovered they like it as much as we do! so why don't they tell... >> rose: (laughs) >> i hope young men are will be to this. they like it, it's very important. essential. they don't tell us that. another thing is fear of rejection. you know, when you're a young kid, oh, she wouldn't kiss me, should i hold her hand? so what? that's okay! there's many other girls. it's not the end of the world.

>> rose: it's not the end of the world. >> but the young men should know that. and i had friends when i was 15 who knew that. i didn't know it. an my childhood was not a fun childhood. i started having a good time when i was 30 years old. >> rose: why? because your father >> my father was very, very tough. he died when i was young. >> rose: and you got shipped off to normandy to school. >> in a horrible place. and being dyslexic in french school is not a good thing because they think you're an idiot. i couldn't memorize poems by... it was not nice. >> rose: let me stay with the notion. john angelli who was a bon vivant, he was a prince. so what did you learn from him. what was it about that friendship that inspired you? >> immense curiosity for everything. he had a great taste for everything from food to the way he dressed to what he had on his

walls, how he moved his hands. it was all original and interesting. business, i don't know... i kind of talked to him. but business for him was not... i think he... i don't know how important business was. he had this incredible life and he had young people around him. and i said why does this guy... now that i'm an old bag i like to have young people around me. they show me a lot of things i don't know about music. >> rose: yes, yes, yes. >> it's very nice. i don't want to be with older people. i like some of them but it's nice to be around... he always had that and he was so much fun. and he loved gossip and he was interested by everything. that was so incredible of him. there's not a subject... he knew about things, he wanted to know things. he used to call me up at 6:00 in the morning which was a nightmare. "what's happening?" i'm sleeping! i don't know. >> rose: (laughs) >> the funny thing in the south of france... i know. >> rose: i know. >> so he would say how is the

sea. he would call me up and say open unyour window. look at it. i'd say the sea is... and then he would be there. he'd take his helicopter and half an hour we would go out sailing. he said i trust you,. >> rose: what we he have thought of berlusconi? >> oh, he would have found him... >> rose: amusing? >> i tell you what he would have ked. the guy has energy. he's not pompous. johnny was not pompous. so he has an idea how things work. >> rose: your heart is where? >> my heart is where i can plug in my computer. i feel as comfortable in the streets of paris, london, geneva new york, los angeles. i really... i feel comfortable nearly everywhere. i feel a bit odd... i like to speak to people everywhere. so even in a place like china or japan or india or... well, some are difficult but a country where i can talk to people i feel comfortable. on the other side, i don't mind

this is japan because when you walk in the street here you read you know, laundry, garage. so your eyes are... and you try to listen to other people in restaurants, listening to their conversation. in japan you have no idea. sometimes people are speaking when you have a car wash or something, completely uninteresting. >> rose: how about china? china >> china i spent a month, i was in april for a month there. the first time i went to china was 1979 so i know china, i've been there many times. it's mind-boggling, it's mind-boggling. on one side it's scary. on the other side i'm not so sure chinese have much imagination. so there's no steve jobs in china. there's no people... i don't think that people... they know how to do things, they plod, they work hard. but i don't think... there's a few very good artists. but in general they're plodders and they work and they work and they work. >> i think that's changing. they really... diane von firstenberg our mutual friend

said her goal in 2010 had been to make her brand relevant in china. >> oh, but that's a european going there. can you tell me the name of one luxury chinese brand? >> rose: no, i cannot. >> and there's some japanese ones. >> rose: what business model interests you now? over the next... the beginning of a new decade. >> oh, my heart is always in technology. that's what i find hedge funds completely boring. >> rose: you went through that phase, too. >> i went through that phase really at the beginning. i thought investing in hedge funds with george soros. >> rose: (laughs) that's a good place to start. >> i tell you, part of your success, you choose the right people or they choose you or friendships are of a learning kind for you. fun and learning. >> you have to be curious and also you don't have to be a sheep. the sheep jump off the cliff and you say oh, this is a cliff. >> rose: didn't you buy "spy"

magazine once? >> i bought it with my friends charles. it didn't make money. >> rose: did you care? >> yes, i saw it when i couldn't pay my votes. we would make fun of the advertisers. one day i remember there were 23 names in the people who were friends of mine they were making fun of. and if i was making $20 million a year it would be okay. but i was not making a cent, i was losing money and my friends hated me. >> rose: you mentioned steve jobs, he a friend? >> steve has been a friend for 25 years. incredible. from the beginning i said this guy is incredible. i never bought a share of apple complete idiot i am. >> rose: did he ever say you should do this?

i have an instinct for design and technology? >> i'm an'ms by sill, yes. a complete imbecile. i knew he was a genius. i was... >> rose: what separates him? >> i'll tell you a little story. i ve a friend who's a professor. he got a phone call a few years ago, 2:00 in the morning, he said are you sleeping? i said yes, he said you can't sleep, this is very important. this is very, very important. in the back of the ipod if you open it up with three screws... you really look, can we put only two? so david said why, nobody opens it. no, somebody might open it and they will see three. we have to change that. the obsession of steve is beyond what's normal. but he incredible. and another time i was in palo alto and he said johnny can you see go see my new shop? so i called him up he said you're wrong, i'm going to have a thousand of those shops and

they're going to be the most beautiful interesting shops in the world. >> rose: the apple stores? >> yes. and the people will work in there will be people obsessed by apple computers. >> rose: and the design for the one on fifth avenue and 59th street, the way it is out there, that building, one of the great... it was his idea. >> absolutely. >> rose: not only did he care about the idea, he cared about the size of the... >> absolutely. the man is... but a weird thing then you go to his house and it's a very... it looks like a hansel and gretel. very normal, simple house. >> rose: and he doesn't tavl much? even before he had illness questions. >> he travels a little bit but not that interested. you know this year he didn't come, last year he came to see me in the south of france with his wife and who's a wonderful girl. he's not that interesting. he's not the obsessed traveler, you know? he travels, he comes. >> rose: he's obsessed by work 2. o'clock in the morning... >> obsessed, obsessed. but with an incredible level of

pace and an incredible... always wanted to progress. >> rose: what is it about your understanding of relationships that make you so damn successful? >> my friends are usually interesting. i mean, i don't... i hate pompous people. i hate like the super wasps or the super english aristocracy. i'm not that interested. the english sometimes are funny because they're such originals but i'm not interested by that. i'm interested by artists, scientists, businessmen, i'm interested by very pretty girls. but not models who will talk to you about the next shoot and how does my hair look. just about people who do interesting things and i think people like to talk about this and love to talk about what they're doing and also i like to laugh. so, you know, somebody like friendly and people that i'm... and there's people... and the person i really like... i feel the most comfortable with is charles saatchi who i think is

the most intelligent man i've ever met in my life. with steve, he's on another level. >> rose: i've been trying to get him to come on the show to talk. >> i will try to help you. not an easy... >> rose: i know. two projects. >> well, i very rarely wear suits but i wore a double breast and i feel there are a number of people over 30 who don't wear a tie and who do not have to wear suits. so let's say they're rich and and they can by things on mad dison avenue but they will only have black, brown, gray and white and color is an incredibly important thing. so i started a company called

called limo land. for rich old men. in reality my medium age customer is 30 years old. and i want to grow this and take it to china. like we talked about like everybody else. but i don't know if i'm going to manage but i'm going to try and it's very interesting and i have a shop in the meat packing industry and it's doings very well and it's very interesting. we sold in the best shops in the world. >> rose: and you did this to... simply because you had an idea and thought... >> i'm learning a business. now i know about buttons and i go to peru and i look at people's knitting. >> rose: you saw how well diane was doing and you said if she can do that with skirts i can be influenced with shirts. you've been influenced by harlem. i went to a place called red rooster in harlem and i mentioned it to you and i could see you light up. a, because you've always been fascinated by harlem. or not? >> oh i like harlem because it

has life and it has funny shops and there's people in the street and, you know, it's like i imagine when you see those old films of new york in the '30s i think it was like that. it still has music and people dancing around. in the summer. in the winter not so great. but in the summer it's a great place. >> panama, you have something that's a research center down there there in association with woods hole? >> yes out of complete craziness i bought an island in the north of panama. >> rose: (laughs) yes. >> out of more craziness, i said i'm going to build a lab. i know zero about labs. i built this lab because my architect was the son of a pharmacist so he says i know about labs. then i went to a conference and ther was a guy from woods hole called dave gallow who showed some incredible pictures of weird creatures that he saw two miles under the water. so at the end of the conference i said mr. gallow, i have a lab

in panama. he looked at me like i was... i said i want you to come. so i managed to get three or four people from woods hole, they came down they took a boat, they went around, took water samples and it turns out what's in the water there is really more interesting than the galapagos. so now we have a very interesting research center. it's been eight or nine years. and woods hole does a lot of research on tropical fish, on man groves, fish migration. >> rose: you know what's amazing is these new species they're discovering in the sea. things they've never seen before. >> the sea, they know nothing about this. if you walk up and down madison avenue you say what is nasa? 99% of people don't know. you say what is woods hole? 3% of the people know. and the ocean is... on fifth avenue there's the ocean. there's everything to discover in the ocean. the interesting something the first 30 feet everybody knows, but from 30 feet down it's difficult and now with little

robots with high definition cameras we can send them down there for weeks and they can go up and down the ocean with a g.p.s. and you can do research that was impossible you couldn't imagine ten years ago. >> rose: craig venter is doing some of this. >> i'm an investor with craig venter. >> rose: you were how old when you discovered that your mother-- the woman married to your father-- was not your birth parent. >> my fake mother told me when i was like 11. when my father was still alive but bizarrely enough, it didn't traumatize me that much. i don't know why. i kind of... i knew them both. my real mother i met perhaps ten times, she was very nice. she actually is in new york. i was friends with her. but i didn't know her that well. i knew my... >> rose: your birth snore your father's misstress in >> she was my father's mistress. my father had a lot of mistresses because the mother who brought me up could not have

children. so my... that lady and my two sisters were from her. >> rose: your birth parent was not only the parent to you but to your two sisters? >> yes. but i... i mean, personally i'm screwed up but i don't think it's immensely screwed me up. >> rose: i didn't know it was disclosed until in the last several years. it may have been in this magazine. >> no, it's in there. ingrid called me up and said are you the son of your father's maid? i said no, not the maid. she came from a very good family in versailles, her father was like a lawyer. she was a perfectly nice lady and my father had a lot of girlfriends. i might have other brothers and sisters. actually, there's one guy, i think, was... i have a half brother i've never met. but my father was very... rose: let me see the camera, please. you have a cam ral with you every moment of your life. >> rose: yeah and now the great thing is cameras are so small so you can really carry them all the time. >> rose: is there a new one or

old one? >> this is six months old. it takes pictures in very low light. >> rose: how many pixels is it? >> twelve and a half, something like that. sounds good enough to me. >> rose: you keep the pictures, you download them into your computer? >> yeah, because now... it's one of the few things that's free. you download them, you put them in and... >> rose: but it's been the way you have recorded your journey through life? through photographs. >> yeah... >> rose: and landscapes. >> and landscapes and food and things that i saw around me. and if i was not dyslexic i think i would write a journal. but if you see my handwriting... >> rose: let me see that. >> my handwriting, i can't read it myself. so it's a horrible... >> rose: i'll only hold it there for a moment. i don't want people to read what you've been writing. >> my handwriting so so horrible that i often can't read what i write. so i decided if i take photograph there is would be a record of my life and, you know,

it's... i think in a hundred years time these photographs will be extremely interesting because i have recorded... i didn't go to vietnam, i didn't go to iraq, i didn't take pictures of people jumping out of airplanes but it's a section of the society that i kind of describe, but it would be interesting. >> rose: one more archive of our time. exactly what it is. i want people at home before we go to see. this is the images from the catalog deraisonne. this is carla bruni in venice in 1991. there is the wife of the president of france. >> rose: >> she was not the wife then. and jack lean deribe is one of the most elegant ladies in france, she still is. all these young ladies in paris idolized her. so i was friends with carla and she says this is jacqueline, i don't think they knew each other. i said go next to her, we'll take a picture. and then it's the kind of... i like it. jacqueline is wearing this

incredible dress and carla is smoking and it was at a party, a very glamourous party at a palace in venice and it was fun. >> there is john agneli. >> he was a captain on his boat for about two hours but then he got bored. cup couple hours, leave. >> rose: he once told a friend of mine that he could hardly remember movies he'd seen all the way through. he'd get bored and leave. >> he would have a screening room in his house and he would put... let's say four reels, reel one, reel two. then say put number four. >> rose: next picture is mick jagger and around schwarzenegger. >> this was at the cannes film festival many years ago and mick is protecting the big arnold

against the paparazzi. >> rose: next is roman polanski and his wife and michael douglas. >> that's very late at night in front of the hotel during the cannes film festival. >> rose: next is larry ellison and steve jobs. >> and larry's wife. that's at steve jobs' birthday in a very modest indian restaurant in palo alto and steve is showing the new mac that doesn't have a keyboard. it has lights on them. >> rose: this is 2003. seven years ago. >> seven years ago. >> rose: the next picture here is... >> well, this is an incredible photographer who has died now. and i think he was the most important photographer of last century in africa. he's like the avedon of the pen anhe was a portrait photographer and you can see

next the wheel wuk vaguely see him. there and people would go to him. he was in the rental business. so this car had no engine and he would say "you pay a dollar for the car." then he would resell the costume and only take one picture because he was cheap but he was a genius. and i found... i saw two of his pictures in a show in new york and it said photographer and i now have a... and i now represent him and this is somebody. >> rose: it's called sedu... >> kato. >> rose: the next one is... >> also sedu kato and you see these guys that are incredibly hip, these great young men in their great little costumes and real attitude and they are really fantastic. >> that was taken in... doesn't say. >> rose: doesn't say because it's difficult. it's like in the '60s. >> rose: next one is? >> there is sherry sam ma baah who's from... a painter from the

congo and i think he is rhaps one of the most important painters in the congo and he's a guy with an incredible imagination and he's one of the stars of my collection. and he's a very funny, interesting... >> rose: what's the size of that? >> size is about perhaps six or seven feet long. it's a big painting. >> rose: the next one is a... >> this is an art frist tanzania. he passed away about three or four years ago. this is a guy who was incredibly hip and i don't know what his hipness came from but he had a vision of this funny vision of africa and i think he's something like a disney of africa or something like that. i adore his work. >> rose: looks like your shirt. >> i had that printed on my shirt. >> rose: next someone mall leek sidibe. >> malik sidibe.

he's a guy who took pictures in might clubs in mali. and mali was very prosperous about 30 years ago. it was the... the french colonial were leaving and they had a fantastic time and listened to james brown and r&b music and all of tha that picture was taken on the eve of christmas. >> rose: more of nose this book and in an exhibition that is at the gagoian? you better go if you're going see this. catalog deraisonne. johnny pigozzi. thank you. >> pleasure. it was really fun. >> rose: deborah vivian freeman mitford cavendish is the duchess of devonshire. she and her five sisters diana, jessica, unity, nancy and pamela captivated english society for decades now at aged 90 she's

published her memoirs entitled "wait for me!". there's also a collection of her correspondence with the english writer patrick lee which is just out. i am pleased to have you here. >> thank you very much. >> rose: are you still the duchess? now you're the dowager. >> i'm the dowager. >> rose: what does that mean? >> it means i'm the mother of the heir. >> rose: because your son is now... >> he's now duke. >> rose: he's now the duke and his wife is the duchess. >> that's correct. >> rose: characterize "wait for me!" >> well, i hope to think it's honest. and i hope to think perhaps it's... the reason for writing it for me was to put straight what a very hostile press have been about my mother and my father. who had never given an interview and all the press had to go and it was cuttings from other press. so i thought well maybe i knew them better than the press did. so i tried to write about them.

>> rose: in your book. on the day you were born... there was no mention in your mother's diary. >> i know! >> rose: nothing. >> i was so excited to find her engagement book. nothing. >> rose: five days later she announced something which is nothing like "fed the chickens" or something. it was nothing. >> well, it's because it was the sixth girl, just what she didn't want. she wanted six, seven boys and she only got one. >> rose: what was it famously that nancy saidbout that? >> she just said oh, awful for you, mum, to have this awful, dreadful girl born. >> rose: when you wanted a boy. >> yes. >> rose: describe the sisters to me. just one by one. nancy was the oldest? >> nancy was 16 years older than me. and she was an infernal tease. but she was so funny and i adored her. i used to sit at the end of her bed and hear all her glamorous tales of what she'd been doing in london and all the rest of it.

i was fascinated. >> rose: a novelist. >> always tremendous embroidery on everything. >> rose: did you like what she wrote about your parents? >> well, they loved it. my father loved it. it was very like him. >> rose: go through the sisters for me so we can aappreciate the mitford sisters. there's never been six sisters like this ever in history. >> rose: strange, isn't it? >> but we didn't think it was strange, we just thought we were a family like any other family. until politics began to raise their head. >> rose: because you were coming of age right before world war ii >> i was 18 in 1938. >> rose: and the second-oldest was... >> pamela was the second sister. >> rose: and what was she like? >> well, she was wonderful. she was a country woman and she meant no difference between the people she met. she wasn't in the least bit impressed by people's titles or whatever they were. and when my son and

daughter-in-law got married there was a dinner party afterwards and she was sitting next to lord mount batten and he turned to her and he said "i believe you're called woman in the family." and she said her in incredible voice "yes, i am, and may i ask who you are?" >> rose: (laughs) this to plord mountbattan. and then there was... >> tom, my only brother who was killed in burma. >> rose: in '44. >> '45. >> rose: then there was... >> diana. unity, jessica, me. >> rose: diana. dia, well she was beautiful from the day she was born. >> rose: did everybody consider her the most beautiful? >> oh, yes. by far. she just was a beauty. she couldn't help it, she was. is. >> rose: and what was she like growing up >> i hardly knew her till after

she came out of prison in the year where she'd been for three photograph years and w no trial. no prospect of when she was going to get out. >> rose: some argue she was put in prison because of nancy. >> well, that was inexplicable. how nancy could have done that i cannot imagine and it is just shocking toe to me that she did it. there was no... what's the word for... for making it real? there's nothing behind it. there was no proof of anything. and she never did anything. she was just put in prison. >> rose: she was put in prison because of... she supported hitler. >> she difd for a long time. >> rose: for a long time. >> rose: you sid that in today's time she would be like somebody who chases stars? >> that was certainly a star. i mean, he was an extraordinary man. >> rose: you had tea with him. >> i did! >> rose: so here you are. it's lord mountbattan, it's... you knew john f. kennedy. he was three years older than

you but came to the house and his sister who was killed had married... >> rose: to andrew's brother. and he was killed in '44 and they were married for only five weeks. >> rose: i know everybody's interested in this so i have to talk about it. so you had tea with hitler. >> i did. andly mother and i had come back in an open car fromustr to munich where we met my sister unity where she was living. and so we drove past hitler's flat. he only had a flat. so strange for a head of state who was meant to be somewhat guarded. very different now from now. and when i know hitler knew that unity was down below, he sent the cars away, his cars... he's just got to the garden and invited my mother, myself and my sister up to tea. >> rose: and what was he like? >> well, if you see somebody

having tea in his flat who has been this extraordinary leader who gave germany help after this that crushing defeat in the war, it was just such a strange thing. i never saw him speak. i never went to a party with him so i didn't see the sort of ranting way he spoke. but what happened was my mother knew i could speak german so unity had to do all the translating and, of course, it makes it a terribly slow job. i'm sure you've experienced that from people who have different languages. so it was british... so after a while we said to unity "would you ask, please, if we could go to the bathroom? we're so dirty, dusty after our journey in an open car." so we went to his bathroom.

to my great surprise and i think to my mother's his towels were with a.h. embroidered on them. well, it wouldn't have been so very strange in england to see somebody's towels embroidered but somehow with hitler, it just was odd to see that. >> rose: what was the conversation about? >> oh, i think they were talking about what they were going to do next. it was pretty boring stuff, i think. there was no politics. >> rose: unity tried to shoot herself in munich with a pearl-handle revolver. >> she did. but she... >> rose: and after that was never the same. >> no. she tried to shoot herself on the day war broke out because she couldn't stand the idea of her two countries she loved so much being at war. so she did that and it didn't... she did not kill herself. but it completely changed her character. like somebody with a really bad stroke. awful. it was a nightmare to see her

afterwards. my mother and i went to fetch her back from where she was in switzerland. she had been sent to a nursing home and she was a changed person completely when we saw her. her hair was all matted where the bullet had gone in and she couldn't bear anyone to touch her head. it was terribly painful. the doctor said it was dangerous to take the bullet out. >> rose: which sister was the communist? >> jessica. >> rose: what was she like? >> oh, she was my boon companion. i couldn't imagine life without her. i just adored her. we had a private language. we had private everything. and was a crushing blow to me when she left without saying where he was going. when she was 18 and she went off to join rommel, a second was on who was fighting in spain for the republicans.

and my nanny said "but she hasn't taken any clothes to fight in." and she was extraordinarily brave because when she was in alabama and such places in the height of the struggle for freedom for the black people she was at the... she was there. >> rose: to read this is to understand what war does to families. how many people, young men, were killed in the last two years of the war. >> rose: well, 1944 was the worst time when my brother-in-law was killed. decker's husband was killed just about that time, his plane went down and he was never seen again then there was... my brother... at brother-in-law was killed. and my only brother was killed.

and my four best friends were killed, bang, bang, bang, one after the other, all in that month. >> rose: and how did you endure? >> well, you got used to very bad news in a funny way. it became kind of like an anesthetic or something. something's given you that makes you want to go on, that's all i can day say but it was very, very hard. >> rose: tell me about your husband. >> well, i adored him. >> rose: you married in' 41? ' 41 when we'd been sort of semiengaged for three years from when we were 18 when we first met. >> rose: love at first sight, as they say? >> completely. for both of us. so then he joined the army and he had to go abroad later on. not to start with. he went abroad in 43 and went through italian campaign which people forget about because germany had still got... still

had an army in italy. >> rose: he divide in 2004, wasn't it? >> i think 64 years, yes. >> rose: 64 years you were married. >> yes. >> rose: how many children? >> three, but i also had three who died. >> rose: three miscarriages. >> well, they were born alive and died. >> rose: but you talk about that. that's why i said this is in part sad, because that was part of the pain of this life of privilege and life of... >> yes, but that sort of thing crosses everybody, doesn't it who is unlucky enough to happen to it. but i put it all in because there was a girl that lives near us who lost her third child, i think, in childbirth. and she was 40 and obviously wasn't going to try and have anymore and i thought to myself, well, it might possibly have helped somebody like herself to read about what other people

have been through. because it's a thing that's not mentioned ch, it? >> rose: and you actually were concerned about what happened. whether there was a service or whether there was an appreciation for their death even though it was... >> well, i just felt sad that they hadn't been christened. and then just by chance the widow of the last clergyman in... who was in the war who lives in our village, she was talking to an old man who was a librarian at the time and he said, you know, the dowager duchess asked my mother-in-law, she christened them all. >> rose: which was great news for you. >> well, in both religions, catholic and protestant, it was a... if there's a suitable foreign do that it's absolutely aloud. isn't that extraordinary? i had no idea of that. >> rose: andrew also had a battle with alcohol. >> oh, he did.

>> rose: du divorce was never, ever, something that you considered? >> no, never. because it was a british stable background although there were ups and downs and because the alcoholism was one of the >> but never affected the love and... >> well, what are you to do? you can't... it's something so sad when somebody's an alcoholic as well as being extremely unpleasant for all concerned. >> rose: chats worth. >> chatsworth. >> this monojuplt al 4-wonderful place. >> yes,. >> rose: but you had to leave. >> it was high time.

>> rose: you were able to turn it into something very, very success. >> for a long time the only refreshment at chatsworth was a cold tap. so there was no cup of tea no anything because the people in charge said you can't start anything like that because it will be too hard on the little campus and things round about. >> so it's now self-supported because of tourists and because of everything. you lived in a little village nearby? >> i do. i love being in the village. >> rose: why do you love being in the village. >> >> i lived in a village and two people said if you konlt go back to chats i don't know worth, it will be a museum. so we were persuaded to go despite of the fact that we had 80% of death duties to pay. and the taxation was 19 shillings and six pence. >> rose: so how did you pay

that? you had to sell things to pay that? >> we sold a lot of things. gave a lot of things to the government in lieu including roderick hall, an elizabethan house also in derbyshire. i'm glad it did because we couldn't have looked after that as well at chats worth. now a trust looks after in the an exemplary fashion. wonderful. >> rose: you also have a lot of chickens. >> i have a reputation as a poultry keeper. >> rose: you're a poultry keeper. >> everybody thinks they're very stupid but it just is not so. >> rose: what is it we need to know about chickens. >> well, if you feed them everyday-- which i do--. >> rose: with corn? what do you feed them? >> with corn and bits and pieces, which is against the law i think. >> rose: yes. >> and a few other things.

you know, the pellets you give. i don't think people will be that interested but that's what i feed them on. >> rose: well, just to see you and know about you. you love that aspect of being... >> i love something alive about the place. i'm too old for horses. two too lazy to have dogs because it means they're going out in all wet weathers. >> rose: this is a picture of you with a dog laying next to you. >> oh, i know. but that... >> rose: is that a posed picture? >> isn't that a beautiful picture? >> rose: it is. let's talk about the people that you have known. as i said, you knew president kennedy when he was a very young man. >> i did. and i wrote about him in my diary when i was 18. "danced with jack kennedy. very nice but rather boring." >> rose: rather boring, you said. why was he boring? >> well, poor fellow, he'd only

just arrived in england. >> rose: his father was ambassador. >> his father was ambassador and he and his brother couldn't come until they were halfway through june, i think. >> rose: just because... just to suggest that this is not just a memoir that's arrived, "wait for me," these are also books by you. all the way back to 1982 which is, you know 30, years ago. "the house: a portrait of chats worth" "the estate: a view from chatsworth." "farm animals." "treasures of chats worth" "the garden of chatsworth, 1999." "counting my chickens." >> it gets iensely boring. it starts off by saying i haven't put since the war that... and then the hairdresser's wife at home said that woman taking of... it was

like sending a blind man down the m-1. >> rose: (laughs) >> rose: that woman knows nothing about cooking! was it view? >> yes, but i've eaten a lot! >> rose: (laughs) >> that's enough for me. how do you have time to do all this? you told me you like writing and you write in long hand. >> i write early in the morning. >> rose: you no longer had the same vision that you did have? >> no, i can't see. but i know what the words ought to look like but then i can't read what i've written. i give it to the secretary. she can read. >> rose: (laughs) >> it's such hard work. >> rose: (laughs) what has brought you the greatest satisfaction in all of this. >> well, i started to feel things at chatsworth. >> rose: you saved chatsworth. >> well, you say, that it's not true. >> rose: everybody says that. >> well, thank you very much. nobody could do it alone, it's

the staff of chats worth are just second to known. you couldn't find a better bunch of people and they're all experts in their way. everything from needle women to people who deal with trains, to people who can look after the trees. it's just one long expertise, whether they're the head person or not because they just know it by pitch thater what they do. they're incredible people. >> rose: this life that you have lived, no one live this is life anymore, do they? >> i suppose not. but i was very lucky with my friends. i was very lucky, for instance, to be at... in washington in the week of the cuban crisis. >> rose: tell me about it. >>t was so funny because i went to dinner with... at the white house. >> rose: at the white house. >> i did. >> rose: what the president. >> with the president. and to a... to other people.

two other people. >> rose: two other people and the president. >> and his... two of his friends and when it came time to go into dinner i thought well, maybe i'm foreign and i am a woman so i suppose i go in first. so i sort of made for the door in a halfhearted sort of way. jack threw out his arm and said "no, not you. i go first. i'm head of state." >> rose: (laughs) >> he used to laugh at himself. that's what was so lovely about him. >> rose: but there's also this. everybody called you debo, right? >> yes. >> rose: and when he had the relationship with harold macmilan, harold macmilan was somehow connected to the family. >> he was the husband of my... sorry. he was related to my husband's aunt. >> rose: and here is the fact. the fact is that harold macmilan

to you was uncle harold. >> yes, he was. >> rose: it is said that jack kennedy, the president of the united states, referred to the prime minister of england, harold macmilan, as uncle harold. >> but, of course he did, because we used to talk about him. >> rose: uncle harold this, uncle harold that. >> and jack picked him up a bit. but they were the most unexpected pair to have made great friends. >> rose: they admired each other greatly, did they not? >> yes. and in that week of the cuban thing they telephoned two or three times a night. >> rose: and you... when was the last time you saw the president... it must have been that visit, no? >> no, i saw him after that, i think. because i went once more, i think. >> rose: did you think he grew from from that man you thought was boring when you danced with him? >> of course he did. he suddenly became president of the united states. it seemed unbelieve shl but he did. >> rose: you are one of the most interesting people i've net a while and i meet a fair amount of interesting people. >> well, that's very nice. i don't know where the interest

lies but thank you. >> rose: for anybody who wants to know i would say read this book. deborah mitford, duchess of devonshire, debo to her friends. "wait for me!: memoirs." thank you for joining us. >> thank you so much for inviting me. it's been a real pleasure captioning sponsored by rose communications

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