>> charlie: welcome to our program. tonight our summer recess composite focusing this time o music and beginning with patti smith. >> he says when i create art it'sike holdinhands with god. that was one of the first thing that robert said to me when we were quite young. and that was, you know, to me it

expresses so much of who he was, the depth of where his work went. even if it has nothing to do really with religion, although he was brought up catholic. when he was using the term god, he just means the highest aspect of things. >> charlie: and we continue with sting. >> i think the perfect music is probably silence. as musicians, all we reall do is we create a rather beautiful and all made frame for that perfection which is silence. some of my favorite artists use silence very carefully and very artistically. miles davis for example, knew the value of the measure of not playing. so what he didn't play was this eloquent as what he was did play. >> charlie: from my home state of north carolina, james taylor. >> i don't really feel as though i write songs, i feel as though

i hear them first. and remember them and get them down, but i don't, it's such a mysterious and subconscious process that i couldn't really sathat i wrote those songs. they just channeled them sort of or they happened to be first. >> we conclude our conversations about music with the great willie nelson. >> i think the music is probably saved my life many times. on a show at night doing a couple hours, back and forth. it's probably kept me alive. >> charlie: looking at music with patti smith, sting, james taylor and willie nelson when we continue.

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captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: patti smith is here, pt, singer song writer, punk rocker. an extraordinary relationship with photographer robert maplethrower, he died of aids in 1989. they called it la boheme. welcom >> do you know wh the very first words you said when we first met like 10, 11 years ago. >> charlie: no. >> we sat her or at a table like this and he looked at me

and said maplethorpe. what do those words mean to me. i just thought it was so great that we're here ain. >> charlie: where did the title come from. >> it came from, there's an episode in the book where when robert and i first knew each other, we went to washington square park and we had no money, but sometimes we would, you know, put on our favorite things and walk around the park. an older couple saw us and the wife said to the husband, take their picture because i think we're artistsecause we were dressed. the husbands waved her away and said ty're just kids. robert laughed and i wrote that down in a jourl. en i was almost finishing the book, i came book, i came upon that littl entry and i thought it seemed the perfect title.

because what i wted people to know and remember about robert, both robert and i, is that we didn't come into the world fully formed. we went through all of the painful evolution and the awkwardness that everyone goes through. >> charlie: he wanted you to write this book. >> yes. robert, the day before he died, we had our last conversation and at that moment we knew he was dying. so i just said to him, all right, i'm left behind but what can i do. what would you like me to do to magnify your name. would you like me to write something. can i do any specific thing for you. and he gave me specific tasks and then he asked me if i would write our story. i was actually surprised that, about that. and i said do you want me to and he said you have to. you're the only one who can

write it. and i guess i am because we were young, unknown. so i vowed to do that and it took me a long time. >> charlie: ten years. >> it took a little longer. with you anywai got it done and i'm sure he's finally happy with me n. >> charlie: critics said this is the best book ever written about becoming an artist. there are two artists. your story. robert becoming a photographer and you becoming a song writer, singer. that's what the story is in part. >> well, yes. because the most, you know, of course just like any young people together, we had a very sweet physical relationship. we went through all the things a boyfriend and girlfriend do. but in the end, that isn't what kept us in tact. really what kept us in tact is

we both felt we had a calling. we both pursued that calling and all the different paths that took us on and both of us magnified one another. he so intensely believed in himself and so believed in me that he instilled that confidence in me. and both of felt really, we were so in tune in kind that when we did work, we wanted the other to see it. when we left to a new place, when we had an illumination, it felt truer and more magnified in the eyes of the other. and that gift that we had helped us get through all of the usual ups and downs that two young people have. >> charlie: what did you learn about yourself because you

were with him? because your story. >> yes. because robert always liked, you know, we have vario ways of tertaining one another because we had no money. and one thing he liked me to do was to recount our story. he would say tell me about when we first met. tell the story of this, when this happened. and i would tell it. and so i knew this story. it's our story, it's not my story. it's the story that we wrote together. >> charlie: he said this wonderful thing that art was like holding hands with god. >> yes. he said when i create art, it's like holding hands with god. that was one of theirstthings that robert said to me when we were quite young. and that was to me it expresses so much of who he was, the depth

of where his work went. even if it has nothing to do really with religion although he was brought up catholic. when he uses the name god he mean the highest aspect of things. >> charlie: the hardest part for you in the relationship were? >> for me? probably my own restlessness. i mean of course it was difficult when roberrevealed he was struggling with his sexual identity which no maer what anyone says i never suspected that. there was nothing in robert's demeanor that alerted me to that. and so that was a great shock to me and something that i had to reconcile and that did take a while. but he's still always himself and he's still always the same

to me. really i was more of the two of us restless agitated one and he had a calmer. >> charlie: you were agitated about at. >> abo everything. if i was writing a poem, i wasn't satisfied. it had to be more physical. the home turned into a song which turned into performance which turned into electric guitar. i was always pushing and pushing and pushing and robert had a little more elegance. >> charlie: how did you hale him. you did it in conversation didn't you the idea of sexuality. you had to have conversations about because the relationship had sex in it, it had commitment it had bond, it had everything. >> well, it was just --

>> charlie: then he was open about what he was searching, you had to say, you ha have to redefine. >> well we just, it was, we parted for a while. we parted for a while and robert explored that aspect of himself and i had a boyfriend but in the end, everything that we both searched, that's why i said we were like the children in the fantastics. we both went out into the world but we came backecause we found the world not so as beautiful as it was when we were togeth. so we went, left brooklyn. went to the chelsea hotel and actually attempted to start again and we did for a while. but i had no understanding

really. i was just 22 or something at a time when we didn't have all the information that we have now. and i had no comprehension of the suffering that and the sacrifice that robert was making to try to make our relationship, keep our relationship in tact. and eveually, when i understood, we both had to step aside and say it was hard for him when i found a new fellow. it was difficult for me when he found a new fellow. but we were always the same. in the end weound we were still us. we were still the same people. we had such a world that was worth saving. it wasn't based, although always magnified, i mean, the physical part of any relationship was beautiful.

but robert and i always continued our whole life to stay affectiona. he was always affectionate toward me. >> charlie: what this book is about beyond this sort of remarkable relationship which you talk about with great eloquence is also a circle of people. there's jimmy hendrix. there was andy warhol, gregory, janis joplin. you can go down the list. >> s shepherd. alan ginsberg. >> charlie: tell a story aboualan ginsberg. yowanto go to the automat and get something to eat. you had ju enough money to buy it. >> yes. i was in hornet and iad $.55 to buy a sandwich back then. i put the money in the machine and i had an old overcoat and my cap on. they jacked up the price and i was devastated because i was so hungry and i hear this foal he

say can i help you. and i turn around and it's alan ginsberg and i was, i didn't say a word. i was too amazed but alan nsberg was standing in front of me and i just nodded and he paid for my sandwich and a coffee and we sat down and he's talking away about walt whitman and i'm eating. finally i said i'm from south jersey and walt whitman's buried in camden. and he looked at me and said are you a girl? it was just like i thought oh, there goes the sandwich. but guess. thatas my meeting. he gave me the sandwich. we parted friends and alan of course became one of my great teachers. so you never know how you're going to meet one of your great teachers. >> charlie: and sam shepher >> sam shepherd i met, i saw him

perform with the holy rounders at the village gate. and he's just like a hill billy, psychedelic hill billy band. i thought this hill billy guy behind the drums. this guy could be is what rock and roll means. purity. he was american but like you know he seemed like he was from like you know the coal mining fields or something and he was also veandsome and i was writing for craw daddy and i went up to him and i said you know, i was telling him i could make him a big star. i was going to write the greatest article about him and he's playing along teing me his name was slim shadow. and we just developed a great friendship and just went on. and it took me quite a while to found out he was sam shepherd,i didn't know who sam shepherd was. i didn't know anything about the

theatre. sometimes people say there's a lot of famous peopl in your book. but back then, they were just people we knew. some of them were sort of famous or you know, a ttle bit famous. but fame was a diffent thing back then. >> charlie: you were a bit shy. or not. >> i was socially -- i could stand in front of a thousand people and talk like that but at a dinner party o a social event, i'm still not very good. >> charlie: you were going somewhere and jimmy hendrix was outse and just took time to talk to you. >> it was at the opening of electric lady where i recorded horses later. i was invited to the party and then i got there and i couldn't bring myself to go in and i just sat on the steps. he had to catch a plane and he came out and was what's happening old lady or however. he was so beautiful. told me all about what he wanted

to do with the sdio and his hopes and dreams. >> charlie: he really believed that rock and roll was the universe of live. >> what he wanted to when he got back is gather musicians from all over the world in woodstock and play in fields and let it be, you know, discordant unl common ground was found. he had the most beautiful dreams for that studio and of course he never set foot in it again. and that'swhy i still record there d every time, i'm aost crying, sorry. every time we go in to record in that studio, i think of the dreams he had for our cultural voice and do my best to do a good job >> charlie: this is a surprise to you. guess what she brought, her guitar. what are you going to sing for us.

>> my bleing year. charlie: all right. ♪ ♪

♪

♪ >> charlie: sting is here. he's a singer, song writer and music legend in a career that has spanned over 40 years he's never stopped evolving. once part of the rock band the police he's also achieved great success as a solo performer. a member of the rock and roll hall of fame.

he's won 17 grammies. he sayshis simply makes him tired to talk b i'm glad to welcome sting back to this table. how are you. >> i'm very well. >> charlie: what do you know about your sging ass a song writer. >> what do i know about my singing. i think the idea is to create a unique signature, like a fingerprint with your voice so when you sing on the radio whether people like your voice or not or like what you do, they recognize who you are and that's really what the x factor is. you don't sound like other people you sound exactly like yourself. if you do that, you have to have some kind of information message to you, to your history to the way you think, to your education, to your philosophy. that doesn't happen immediately. >> charlie: what else would a song writer look to for what you do with words >> you know i'm interested in literature, i always ha been. i read a lot of good books. i was well educated so i try and reflect that in my writing. not to say that you know you need to be a poet to write a pop

song. sometimes gre poey will not translate into integrate song lyrics at all. if you think of the wasteland, it's not going to be a song. sometimes lyrics are now but the process of putting them into music elevates them sometime into the sublime. i don't quite understand the process but 's not necessarily -- >> charlie: you don't understand the process having something that looks benull could become magical in voice. >> it can. it's surprising. >> charlie: why is it that great poetry doesn't fit automatically into a great song? >> it doesn't need it. it already has its own music, you know. >> charlie: could it be too complex. >> it could be a little too complex, yes you have to be a little simple sometime to write a good song. it needs, it's a balancing act. >> charlie: where is the virgin territory? for you? >> younow, i talked before about music being this never ending journ but also a never

ending mystery. it's at the bottom of it. i think the perfect music is probably silence. as musians, all we really do is you create a rather beautiful or all made frame for tt perfection which is silence. some of my favorite artists, we use silence very carefully and very artistically. miles davis forxample. knew the value of the measure of not playing. so what it didn't play washis eloquent as what he did play. i think that's a lesson i've always tried to learn. >> charlie: playwrights like harold understand how to use pauses in silence too, same thing. >> and beckett. >> charlie: and beckett. take a look at this. this is englishman in new york. here it is. ♪

>> charlie: so ar you coming back to new york more now if you've got a son in school here. >> i have a son in school mere. >> charlie: he will be grabbing more of your time.

>> for the next couple years because my youngest is in school here. we've lived in the city for a long time. we had an apartment for over 25 years so i feel at home here. i am an englishman in new york. i like to walk around the city. i find being a celebrity in the city very relaxing and i think it has something to do with the self-esteem of new yorkers. they don't look at celebrities as any different than them. >> charlie: that's different than london or berlin. >> it's a bit strange. celebrities are something they don't quite trust. whereas in new york everyone's in their own tv show. whether you're a taxi driver or a bus driver. today charlie rose on my show. hey, how are you doing. i like that feeling. it's relaxing. >> charlie: i know. i couldn't agree more. when you wrote englishman in new york, what were you thinking? why were you. >> i was living in soho and i was a very good friend of

quinton crisp another famous englishman in new york, a very singular englishman in new york who was gay at a time in england when it was one against a law, incredibly dangerous but yet this brave outspoken life. it was very inspiring to have lunch with him and he was funny and obeying and witty. i wrote a song about him, englishman in w york. it's become about me now. >> charlie: yes, i know. all right. one more last one. you'll recognize this one. ♪

♪ >> charlie: that's at the end when the police were breaking up. >> that was our last number one single in 1983, i believe. yes. >> charlie: it was a seductive song and yet this was a dark time. >> it's an ambivalent song. at the same time it's about control and ownership and jealousy. and historically it was this time of reagan's star wars program, you know. morning in america and yet was it so wonderful.

i'm not so sure. for me too personally it was a tough time because my first marriage broke up, i was breaking up with the police. it was the apex of my success and yet i was not happy. i learned a lesson, success and happiness are not necessarily the same thing. you have an important lesson to learn. >> charlie: you surely knew that. >> you always hope it's not the truth. if i just have one more hit, i'll be happy. i've just got one more break i' be happy. it's not the truth no. >> charlie: what makes you happiest now? >> the seah. [laughter] >> charlie: it is the pursuit in the end. >> i ve a wonderful family, a wonderful wife. i think happiness as a concept is a bovine thing. human beings -- >> charlie: the cow gets it but we don't. >> we don't. >> charlie: just a grassy

hillside and they'r happy. >> totally. so that's our lot onhis planet. we'rhere searching. >> charlie: for what you do not know. >> do you know what, i enjoy the mystery. i would never say i'm an atheist, i would say i'm an agnostic and that means i don't know. i embrace that not knowing. we live in this incredible coso that gets further and further away. >> charlie: the more you find out the more mysterious it is. >> absolutely. >> charl: tt's the way it is. we have tools now that tell us stuff we can never imagine knowing. >> the analogy is we have the stronger telescopes get the further the universe is. >> charlie: that's it. disoa -- so what are you writing. >> i'm doing a project that both excites me and terrifies me. i'm trying to write a musical play with a playwright who just

won the pulitzer for a play called nex to normal. it's based upon an album i did many years ago about my home town new castle north of england. the death of my father. and the death of the industry which is ship building. and it's a mood piece and i'm trying to make it into a book and a play. and it's terfying. how am i going to do this at the same time. >> charlie: also. you are it seems to me knowing a little about you, you're inevitably lured into the unknown. >> this is certainly the unknown. this is certainly the unknown. >> charlie: but you will in the end. >> prevail? there's no guarantee. nothing worthwhile doing this without risk. i think you have to accept that. >> charlie: what's been the biggest failureor you? i mean do you fear failure when you left is police?

>> i haven't really had a failure to be honest with you. i've had setbacks but never had a failure. >> charlie: set ba is what. >> set back is not getting it immediately. >> charlie: or one didn't work as much asyou thought it might. >> that's okay. you learn more from those setbacks than you would from massive successes. >> charlie: some you just want to try knowing the way the barometer or the metric of success is different. >>otally. i'm here to learn. that's success for me. whether that turns into grammy award or million selling album or whatever. it's beside the point. it's very nice but it's really not the point. the point is to learn something and evolve and progress as an artist as a peon. >> charlie: thank you for coming. it was great to see you. >> it's good to be here. >> charlie: james taylor is here one of america's timeless musicians. he started out in the 1960's, he paved the way for the

singer/songwriter genre. ♪ >> charlie: i am pleased to have james taylor back on this program. welcome. >> thank you. that was a shock. >> charlie: somehow you knew way back when the beatles, you were in london and that door was open. >> it was. that was a life changing moment when peter brought me to apple records, it was one of those, i've been in a bande in new

york city and i had sort died of starvation and neglect. my father rescued me. he could tell i was in trouble on the one. he showed up in a station wagon and he said you stay where you are. i stayed put and about 19 hours later he showed up at my doorstep and drove me back down to north carolina. it meant a lot to me. always has. i wrote a song about called jump up behind me. i stayed at he for about six months licking my wounds. having spent my college education money i got my parents to buy me a plane ticket to london. i went over to visit a friend from martha's vineyard and

started pushing my music around to various people who were encouraging to me and eventual peter asher brought my demo to apple records and played it for paul and i actually went in additioned. i was the first act that they signed to their record label. >> charlie: and paul sat in on that didn't he. >> he pled base on carolina on my min our first iteration of it. it was a life changing moment. from that point o everything changed. i mean you could say that every moment, but that one was an obvious. >> charlie: and then soon thereafter you're on the cov of "time" magazine. >> this was big too. and i think that the process of starting very privately and sically in isolation and almost because of a period of isolation starting to make a

certain kind of, if i can allow myself art, you know, to then go public with it and basically turn yourself into a public person is, it's what to be wished for. certainly it's what we all want but it's a tough transitn for a lot of people. in my case, i had sort ofjumped out of the familyñrçó tree and n like hell. and only to find myself back at the center of the family, you know. it wasñi very get what you resi. as they say. >> charlie: get whatou resist. >> yes. >> charlie: youonsider sweet baby janes, georgia on my mind. as good songs as you eve

written. >> yes. they are good songs. i still sing them and i still connect with them and i'm, i am, i'm thrilled to have written them. i'm thrilled that i don't really fe as though i write songs i feel as though i hear them first. and remember them and get them down. but i don't, it's such a mysterious and subconscious process that i couldn't really say that i wrote those songs. i just channel them sort of or they happened to me first. but i also feel as though there was this period of time that thankfully where i was very successful and got a lot of attention. and i've known that person who wrote my greatest hits, i have sort of two colleions of

greatest hits. >> charlie: didn't one sell about 10 million copies. >> i think it did. >> charlie: yes, i think so too. that's what i heard. >> i wasn't there for each sale. >> charlie: is the creative process still the same? >> there's a sort of lightening both kind of moment when you're visited by a song and you g hopefully as much -- sometimes it's a whole song but sometime it's just a fragment. i knew enough to collect those fragment and often later on sequester yourself and hide away somewhere and work them. push them around in circles. >> charlie: is this a sculpture. >> i suppose it is a little bit like that. add to them, add and remove clay. yeah. but i think that the lightening strike part happens less freqntly, partially because i felt a real pressure to express

myself early on and now i feel an expectation to express myself. >> charlie: an expectation. >> yes. it's sort of what i do. it's what's expected of me i think and i think you get better at the craft of it. i also think that you tend to write the same things over and over again. there's nothing new under the sun. >> charlie: you write the same songs over and over again then what's the common denomitor? >> you know, they are love songs they are celebratory songs. they are confessional or angry songs, songs yearning for home. >> charlie: i think you said something like thi you wouldn't be where you are today unless you had gone through the period of self medication. >> we were talking a little bit

about addiction, about my father's drinking. i think that there are some people who perhaps drink to get blasted and looking for oblivion. but most people who are addicts are self medicating and trying to feel normal. >> charlie: if you self medicate to feel normal are you pretty normal. >> i think i am pretty normal or at least i belong to a very populous subsegment and but i think human life is not normal. i think we were evolved physiologically perhaps to a state that people lived in 5,000 years ago maybe. but i thk todaye're always trying to catch up with the changes that we make. we control, we so much of a

capacity in what we live in to call it normal or say it's where we should be. i get the feeling although i was born with a certain set of, you know, with a certain feeling. maybe like a difficulty being in my own skin that would have been fine if i were scandinavian 5,000 years ago. it would have matched my condition. but living in human society, i just ran into trouble. i think everybody does to a greater or lesser extent. i did feel as though i was born on the dark side of the moon and that i didn't have a place in this world when i was 15. but i think that, you know, i've

been relatively at piece for a while. >> charlie: you also found happiness in marriage. >> that's right. i can't believe my luck in finding kim. i d think i've survive to a point that's relatively stable now. i couldn't call the wife east. it's amazingly sort of self centered that i am myive for a living and i sort of am as we are right now, i'm the topic of convsation and it's. so that's not normal. >> charlie: you seem to be handling it just fine. >> i'm doing okay. thank you, if you say so. >> charlie: i don't mean just this conversation but i've seen you performing. it seems to me that you have

found a variety of stages. you understand who you are, where you are, where you're going. >> it starts with a great good fortune being born as a human being. how likely is this to be in one of these, to live in here. and tn there's the pce that life takes us. if you can be grateful for what you got, th's a great state to try to be in. it's hd. >> charlie: also you teach how to play guita or something like that. >> i wanted to for a long time. i noticed people were using my technie as a way of teaching. so i thought that one thing we should do is offer on the website a series of guitar lessons how to play guitar like james taylor.

and so we've embarked upon that. >>harlie: if io to your website i will be able to play the guitar like you. >> that's a chance, a good chance in fact. it's a pretty sile technique and i set about to explain it. and we have some great sort of, we've developed these technological camera angle from inside the guitar and another one for the left hand that i think really works really well. so we're having fun doing that. there's another album on the burner. >> charlie: when will it be born? >> you know, i'm going to work through the end of july this year and then i'm calling it off and i'm going home and i'll finish these songs. >> charlie: it's great to have you here. congratulations on this and everything else. >> tnk you. thank you sensual charlie. it's good to see you again.

>> charlie: willie nelson is here. he is one of country music legends. he's been writing and performing since age 7. he's made 81 studio albums and written dozens of hit songs. ♪ >> charlie: at 77, willie nelson tours for 200 days a year. his latest album is called country music. i am pleased to have him back at this table. welcome my friend. >> thank you charlie. >> charlie: good to see you. >> good to see you. >> charlie: april 30, 77. >> that's it. >> charlie: not stopping for a moment. you look great. >> piece of cake. >> charlie: are you in good shape. >> i feel good. >> charlie: wt's the

secret? >> i don't know. >> charlie: you're on the road. >> i think attitude has a lot to do with how long you live. the more stress you call on yourself i think the quicker it shows up. i think the music is probably save my life many files. you get on the show at night and doing a couple hours with a lot of positive energy going back and forth. i know it' been good for me it's probably kept alive. >> charlie: but you rlly have had some hard knocks. >> i have but i'm not sure if they're any worse than yours or anybody else. >> charlie: well, i've been lucky myself. let me just go back. let's go back to, was it abbott. >> abbott, texas. 40 people. population never changes. i grew up in a town of 200. >> charlie: methodist church. >> methodist church. grew up my sister and i singing in the methodist church.

and we branched out to the baptist church and the tabernacle and all that. >> charlie: wanting to be a musician. >> well yeah. wanting to be a musician but wanting to be a more successful. at t time i thought i was pretty successful. i made $10 last night playing. >> charlie: no matter what they do, no matter what they take they can't te my talt. i can go up the road. i can play one hky tk. >> let me go play. >> charlie: when you went to nashville, did you want to be a song writer or did you want to sing? >> i wanted to do both. when i got to nashville it was easier to get in as a song

writer with a publishing company, i signed with them thanks to ray price all in the company. i started out as a song writer. >> charlie: what was your first big hit. >> it was crazy patsy klein, hello. roy orbison and ray price did night life. >> charlie: that's great. and then you left nashville. >> my house burned. i was doing a lot of shows because i was most popular in texas. i work dow there all myife. you know what they say about guitar players, without a waitress -- [laughter]

>> charlie: all of a sudden something happened in austin. even your sister says who came to see you and she still plays in the band does she not. >> yes, she does. >> charlie: you looked different, you were different. did something happen in atin other than the fact that you found another level of success? >> i ran into a group of people down there who had real long hair and smoked a lot of dope and loved country music. >> charlie: and you said i'm home. >> i'm back. and so they we blue jeans and t shirts and baanas and i grew up in abbott. so it was really easy for me to go back. charlie: also, but you began to absor all kinds of music too. >> and i had done that all along. my sister who reads music real well, she would play the piano and sit there on the stool when i could barely climb on the stool. and play along with her as she was reading star dust, moon light in vermont, georgia, all

those great songs. i grew up with those songs and learned them because of her really and the radio. i listened to radio all the time. >> charlie: did you lead the crossover? in a way. >> i think i was probably part of it. i don't think i lived it but i was a part of it. >> charlie: you were a part of it, you were a series of people. >> yes, way lawn and chris and all those guys. >> charlie: it was something of the three of you certainly waylon and certainly chris and certainly u called outlaw. >> it meant we finally decided we didn't want to go in and record the way they wanted us to record. we wanted to take our band and go in and play and then go to dallas and play with the same band. >> charlie: we think we kno what we're doi. >> we got i figured out. i'll just record it and sell it. >> charlie: we can do this. i think there was a story that was on said to you where do you get the inspiration from and you said sinatra. >> he's one of the guys.

>> charlie: one of the guys. >> ray charles is another one. and of course hank williams. >> charlie: what about them was inspiring to you. >> soulful. good and soulful. >> charlie: and authentic. >> and you know, ray charles more soulful person. frank sinatra, not a better singer but the chooser of material exprorded some of the finest songs in the world. >> charlie: he was inspired mostly by billy holiday. >> i can see that. >> charlie: and billy holiday said she learned everything from louis armstrong. there's a continuum there. >> yes. >> charlie: in the 70's, you weres good as it could get for concerts in the 70's and 80's. on the road was where you found

it. >> yes. i was doing well back then and on the road again kind of set up what we did. >> charlie: tell the story you d sydney pollock on a plane. >> we were getting ready to shoot the movie honey suckle rose. >> charl: the name of your bus. >> yes. so sydney and, sydney pollock and the direcr flew on the plane and they wanted a song for the movie and i said what do you want the song to be about. they said i don't know, something. i said what else have you got. they weren't that impressed with. it's just natural to write. they just gave me the title on the road. i said on the road begin, that's easy. most of the good songs are easy to write. >> charlie: is that right.

>> crazy came like that. i didn't have to sit around and wonder what the next line was going to be. >> charlie: it just comes. >> yes. and i think it happens that way to all writers. i think allriters, if they're real good professional writers, they can sit down and write a song any time. whether it's good or not, i don't know. it's just probably, you know the words will arrive about whether they will fit in the song or not. who knows what makes a hit song. it's either one or it isn't. >> charlie: do you have any instinct when you're writing it, this is different i can feel it. >> yes. if don't, i don't finish it. if i don't feel feel that way all the way through it and when i'm through with it if i don't feel this is a good one, then i don't think about it anymore. >> charlie: one of the greats you knew. >> ray charles, yes. he was a good friend. a good buddy. hung out and played chess

together >> charlie: how did he play. >> he would say we're going to play chess. i went to his hotel room and went to the front room and they had some lights in there but we went into the bedroom where he had the chess set set up. there was not enough light in there. i sat down in a dark room to play chess. he brought out the chess set which all of the pieces were the same color. and he had it made especially for him. he could pick up a king and say that's a king or a pawn. but it took me a little while to figure it out. naturally he beat me. >> charlie: i'm told a lot of your friends came togher at the action andyour stuff ended up at the right place. >> that's right. of course i didn't know they were going to do that. naturally i was overwhelmed by it all because they comen, bought everything i had and then gave it back to me.

>> charlie: that's friendship. >> yes. guy out in west texas bought a ranch down there and kept it for a while until everything calmed do and gave it rightack to me. >> charlie: the whole thing. >> the whole thing. >> charlie: you also did a duet with bob dylan. >> yes, i did. i did a bob dylan duet. i've done a duet for everybody. you and i got to duet. >> charlie: dillon also you put up at the top of the list of songwriters too. >> exactly. great writer and great performance. >> charlie: another thing is longevity. >> he lives in his bus. >> charlie: you're a great man. thank you for being here. >> my pleasure.

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