picture would look better and the debt would look shawler and that, two, some kind of political consensus would mirj that would allow everyone to pull together. in fact, quite the opposite occurred. firstly, the growth picture is getting worse, not better. today the european commission revised down its forecast to 0.4% in q 3 and q 4 to .2% and.1 and we're not seeing political consensus. >> rose: we continue with our friend jim lehrer from pbs. he's written a new book called "tension city" about hisu experiences as the leadinga moderator of presidential debates. >> presidents are truly judged in the final analysis of acting unexpected, not the expected. they talk about all these issues "well, i'm going to do this and here's my plan for the economy and this and that" and whatever. but what they really want to kn about people as best they can find out were they vote is how he would handle... he or she would handle the unexpected. >> rose: we conclude with peter bard, a former journalist and studio executive who's written about about his experiences

called "infamous players" a tale of the movies, the mob, and sex. >> here's the outrageous thing about the '70s in hollywood. the people who ran studios actually made pictures they wanted to see. you know, that's unthink bt today. i asked a couple of heads of production recently if summer pictures you made, were you really looking forward to seeing any? and they sort of blanched and said "not actually." >> rose: european debt, presidential debate and the moes when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> rose: there is a heightened sense of crisis around europe, a range of corrective measures instituted over the summer appears to be failing. that has lead to growing fears about the impact on global economy. today, five major central banks acts in conjunction to pump dollars into t banking sysm. yestday, chinese premier wen jiabao said that his country willing to consider expanding its investment in europe. joing me here in the studio is ian bremmer, he is president of the eurasia group. from the "financial times" bureau in new york is gilli tett, she is the paper's u.s. managing editor. from washington, zanny minton beddoes, she is the economics editor at the "economist" magazine. i am pleased to have all of them here. i begin with gillian. tell me where you think we are with the rescue of greece and what you think it will possibilities are that in the end greece will default? >> i think one of the european

bollsy makers put it beautifully which is that europe is at a fork in the road and it keeps driving straight ahead. on the one hand it can go forward by pushing for more integration which essentially means germany facing up to the fact thathe euro zone is not going to be run as they want it to be, that countries which run up big debt burdens will not be punished as severely as it wants and journalists will have to face a rise in foreign costs to help the weak ones. tor euro zone breaks up and the weaker countries go one way, the stronger countries go another. but either way, both of those opons are politically very, very messy andhat's why everyone is kicking the can down the road and trying to avoid making those tough decisions. >> rose:an? >> it'shard to kick a can down the forkn the roa, fst of all. and i don't think we're at the fork yet. i actually they the process of muddling through has been fairly successful. they've bought some time and as they've bought time, the pigs-- the portugals and spain and

greece and the rest-- are increasingly differentiating. we should use... we shouldn't use the term pigs anymore becausin portugal and in spain they are committed to austerity and the governments are making it work. in greece they're not and prime minister papandreou has s a spent political force at this point. his government is not going to last and whether it's in the next few months or sometime next year-- i think it's probably next year--. >> rose: he cannot impose the austerity that's necessary? >> he can't and they can't pay. clearly at some point some form of default is going to occur in greece because they can't continue to pay. and the point is that there is a very strong incentive to contin to ensure that when that occurs is as far in the future as possible to secure other parts of the euro zone. it's not just about letting them grow out, it's also allowing them to differentiate themselves and that's the objective. >> rose: zanny? >> i wish i shared ian's optimism. i think the muddle-through

strategy has been a catastrophe. i think we're getting close to running out of time. greece is such a tiny part of the euro zone's economy yet it's the tail wagging the entire euro projecto coming pentially to an end. i think it's been catastrophic to have this muddle through. i think we now face a choice which is not just about austerity. greece messed up and greece needs to have austerity, but what's happening now in the core periphery, the italys of this world is there's something else going on, too, which is a profound loss of investor confidence in the whole european project because nobody knows what's a risk-free asset in europe anymore. nobody knows where italy will be ultimately forced into a default. i think we now have a situation where we have to kind of add to the austerity recipe with a confidence recipe a we need the e.c.b. or a supd up european rescue fund to come in and to provide confidence that these countries will not be allowed to default and i think the thing is greece has to default and the europeans have messed up by pretending that greece doesn't and then not being clear on the others.

>> rose: gillian? >> i would agree because i would say that when the european laiders embraced this muddle through strategy they were betting on two things: one, that growth would occur and make the economic picture look better and the de look smaller and that two, some kind of political consensus would emerge that would allow everyone to pull together. in fact, quite the opposit has occurred firstly, the growth picture is getting worse not better. today the european commission revised down it forecast from 0.4% in q-3 and q-4 to.2% and we're not seeing political consensus. we're seeing increasing political splits that are frkly pretty dangerous. >> rose: let me take a moment to go on a tangent and assess the role of angela merkel in germany in terms of the priorities that she has. >> it's very clear that the pport among the german population for spending their hard-earned dollars, that they've been very careful in marshaling over the years and

responsible in terms of their fiscal policy to basically support the unsustainable habits of these soutrn europeans that are sort of retiring at the age of 35 and not working properly. but there's not a lot of proper support for that. but that's precisely the reason why the muddle-through is also important. it's not just about shong growthg,hat really wasn't very likely to begin with, it's also because the germans had to show that they were going to actually impose some punishment on these guys over the sho to medium-term. and that's been effective in portugal. it's been effective in spain and it's been only a little effective in greece. but nonetheless, that's provide, i, more capacity ultimately for the greeks to play harder ball, for the germans to play harder ball with the greeks when push comes to shove. that is coming and there will be a default. i don't care what you call it, it's going to be messy but ultimately the germans are going to come through as the big leaders in europe. they'll have more strength in european institutions, that's the way we're going. there is a lot of pain being driven by the markets but that

was going to come anyway. >> rose: where are the chinese in this? gillian? >> they are licking their lips, probably. here is another chance for the chinese the show their growing muscle and power in the world stage and a couple interesting things have happened. first, there's a flirtation going on between european governments and the chinese adership because europeans need cash and the chinese are dangling the promise that they might provide it. but secondly you have the chinese attaching some condions to any cash that might supply and we have an incredibly important hint to what kind of conditions there may be yesterday in that it's to do with trade and not keeping out chinese goods. >> rose: >> i completely agree with that. and i think chinese are... (laughter) i do! the chinese are going to have conditions and it will be different from the conditions that come from the i.m.f. and world bank. they don't want political and economic reforms in return for these countries... in return for giving them cash. they want an end of arms

embargos of the europeans to china and if and when that happens and it's increasgly likely it will over time, that's an enormous hit to nato. we are seeing a shuffling of the chairs of the geopolitical environment of the world and it's because europe is incredibly weak, china is quite strong and the united states does not have the political with w all or the economic w with all or disposition today to play the role e chinese can. >> rose: so we're looking at the future, aren't we? >> fareed zakaria came out with a great piece that said now the chinese will be responsible stakeholders. no. the chinese are going to become stakeholders to themselves globally and they'll change the nature of these institution and which ones matter. we won't like that. >> rose: zanny, you wanted to say? >> i think the chinese will... are maybe licking their lips but i think the real solution to this is still in europe and i want to... i hate to do this, but i think that angela merkel hadone a terrible job.

i think she's done a terrible job of leadership, of explaining to the germans that the professor leg gasy of the greeks was the mirror image to the gain that germany got from this euro stem. no one in germany has leveled with the german people and has said actually that euro may not have turned out as we wanted but we have gained enormously and we have huge amounts to lose if it breaks up. and that's the kind of leadership we haven't seen from anyone in europe and it's up to the germans to provide that because in the end germany is the pay master of europe. germany can really decide what the european central bank ultitely can do and unless germany recognizes that all of its confince-building stuff needs to be done to keept together and it's not just about hair shirt, that's an important part. but it's not a moral tale, it's a question of what to do you do keep the thing together unless germany has the leadership to do that and angela merkel has t leadership to do that then i think we're looking at a real catastrophe. >> rose: zanny do you think she is? >> i think she's... i think

she's been much too focused h. she has a very complicated domestic environment. it's not an easy thing to do and i'm not underplaying the difficulties, the political difficulties she has b i think she's created part of those by perpetuating the idea this this is greet writ large and professor leg gasy writ large and the root to solving this is austerity everywhere. that's part of it but she needs to do a much better job at laying out the stakes in the european project like her predecessors did. helmut kohl, for example, helmut schmidt before him. the building of the european institutions, the building of the european proct which is something they showed ahuge intellectual leadership on. >> she these go to the german people and present the need for german marshal plan because after the second world war america helped germany rebld itself. there wasn't a short-term benefit more america b it had

a long-term gain on all concerns. someone needs toe go to the germans and say now it's time pass on the baton. and that idea was floated to me recently by a senior member of the euro zone policy community and the problem is that although it's gotuch historical resonance, it hasn't happened yet. >> this isn't a german issue, this is a global issue. we see what's happening in china with the unwillingness to fundamentally address rebalancing issues today, we see hit in the united states with the efforts to come to the middle on minor short-term fixes and not addressing big problems. we see that in japan with what's going to be a third lost decade. and i'm not... i guess i'm just sayi i'm not prepared to sort of broad brush that just on merkel. i think these are structural issu and the germans aren't going to be the ones that bail out europe by themselves. they will be the leaders, they are playing a much stronger leadership role in europe than anyone wld have expected before the crisis started and i think that frankly they're actually getting a little bit of

institution... >> rose: when when is the moment in truth in germany? >> when you see a default. it might not be a greek default, it might be either when you see banks fail, maybe major banks fail. we saw already a downgrade in france this week and that creates contagion or it's when you see a "come to jesus" moment on italy, pardon the pun. and that's a big issue that germans will have to take a swipe at. >> or alternative when the e.c.b. says we're holding these greek governnt bonds, wve had a big loss in our bos and we are running out of money ourselves and we'll have to recapitalize, germany, can you cough up. when you have something like that, tre will be real questions asked about the government structure of europe. >> rose: who stands to lose the most if there's a greek default followed by an italian default. >> the whole european project. i mean, the greeks will stand to lose an enormous amount. everybody else will lose an enormous amount if there's a chaotic greek default. it will be better if it's an

orderly restructuring. if you have an italian default you have a catastrophe in europe. you ve a really catastrophic meltdown of europe and i think it's worth mentioning that we talk about the factorying of the euro zone. if the euro zone fractures, think the single market that is the heart of the european union also breaks up. i can't see how it survives. and if that breaks up, there's no chance the european union holds together. so i think the stakes in this are really, really big. >> it sounds like the reason we disagree is because you think the likelihood of a fraction of the euro zone is high. as a political scientist that doesn't see the institutional mechanisms to make that happen or the elite support to actually drive it i think the european institutions are actually going to stay ultimately strong. in ten year's time we'll see this is the crucible where stronger european, more entry grated european institutions occur. that doesn't mean fiscal unit for everyone but a lot of peripheral countries are going to have to give up fiscal soveignty. so i see lot of losers from

ropean default bus european institutions it maltly are nners. >> rose: giian? >> well, i'll use the fork in the road metaphor again. whether you think you're kick canning can k down the middle or not kickinor it's a very long fork or whatever. i think actually ian is quite likely to be correct. if they don't break apart they will emerge closer as a group. they're going to have to. >> that's absolutely right. they will have to become closer. but you know i agree with you and we found something that we agree on that the likelihood is we will end up with a union that stays together and is close. bui think the role of the germans have made the route to that more painful. >> rose: and the consequences for the u.s. economy is what? >> right now everyone is buying treasury bonds, aren't say in >> for the banks it's a problem. bank of america is getting hit primarily because of the mortgage exposures but the other major american banks... >> and trading at much lower multiples becae of the

exposures to theuropean banks and people are concerned that those banks are vulnerable and going to fail. i think that's why these banks are training down. >> rose: would the french consider nationalizing their banks? >> they deal a bailout. i don't see the french allowing major banks to fail. how they would structure that as an open question. >> it's worth remembering that when the u.s. passed a project back in 2008 it only did so second time arnd and after a market crisis. market slumped. so if you're going to get these bailouts in the euro zone you're going to need a market crisis to trigger that to get the political cohesiveness. the problem is that you don't need one tarp, you need multiple tarps. the danger is if you're going to have multiple market crises that are going to keep sacking confidence and make the problem worse. >> rose: on that note thank you very much gillian, zanny, thank you. thank you ian. >> rose: the great jim lehrer is here. he's a writer and long time anchor of newshour. he began his career as a journalist in dallas, texas.

he transitioned into television, covering the watergate hearings with former journalist robert mcneil. in 1975 they launched a show called the robert mcneil report. today the show is known as pbs newshour. this year lehrer stepped down as his post of anchor, he stepped in that role for 36 years. beyond newshour, he's written 20 books and moderated 11 presidential and vice presidential debates. he's written about his experience in a new book called "tension city." i'm pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. >> thank you, my friend. >> rose: you know how great you are? >> no, tell me. i've got a few minutes, go ahead. >> rose: (laughs) they don't replace you with one person, they replace you with five! that's huge. >> it's a close call. >> rose: it might be not enough! it was part time for you. you were out writing these books. >> you could sign on. you could be number seven.

>> we'd love to be. i need work! i need work! (laughter) at some point in the near future you and i are going to sit down for an hour. maybe in your office or somewhere, in a greyhound bus maybe riding around, we'll record a conrsation about this extraordinary career. "tension city" the title comes from george bush 41. >> that's it. >> rose: what did he say in. >> well, i was honored, privileged, to be able to talk to every president... except three, everybody who ran for president or vice president and did a presidential debate one of the national debates. >> rose: when you wrote this book? >> and i was able to talk to every one of them about their debate experiences. >> rose: al gore you didn't talk to? >> he didn't want to talk to me. >> rose: hethought you... (laughter) oh, there' a story! there's a story! >>o, no, no story. >> rose: you would cause them to go, hmm? >> no, charlie, he was very pleasant about it as i

understand and m own theory about it is that 2001 still raw. and someday he'll write about that electn and the debates will be included but on his own terms, he didn't want to do an interview about it and i understand that. but george h.w. bush he said well, you know, those big time things, jim, they're tension city. so that's... i had had a working title up until then called requested moderator" and my wonderful... >> rose: this is better. >> my wonderful editor bob loomis said, you know, we thought about it, we're not sure people would flock to the bookstore to buy a book called "moderator." can you come up with something else? so then i remembered that... what george h.w. bush told me about tension city and that's how it happened. >> rose: did you enjoy it? moderating these debates? >> i did, charlie.

there were times... oh god, doing them. actually doing them, the lead-in is the worst part. that's the scary pt. that's when you start thinking, oh, i'm trying to think about what if he does that this? what if she does that. whatever... try to... i always try to visualize the event before itappens and try to anticipate what happens if the audio goes out, what happens if somebody takes a hit on somebody all the things... >> rose: what if the prompter doesn't come up. >> the prompter doesn't come up. >> rose: happened onetime? >> absolutely. >> rose: what happened? >> well, i had anticipated that and i had the script in front of me. >>rose: ofcourse! you always have the script in front of you! (laughs) >> i'm a genius when itomes to that kind of thing. but the real concerns are that somebody's going to say something that's really important and that i missed it. i didn't miss... i may have missed the point. or that some one of the candidates will decide... somebody's running far behind to say "the hell with the rules"

and what am i going to do if they... how do i enforce the rules in a way that is... doesn't make me center of attention and all that sort of stuff? to there are just a lot of stuff. a lot of... i always realized from second one and leading up to it, hours one that all i have to do is make one... do one dumb thing and it could affect who's going to be the next president of united states. so i am determined always to try to avoid doing that dumb thing. >> rose: first rule is do nothing dumb. >> exactly. do nothing dumb and also stay out of the way as best you possibly can. >> rose: it's what they say about the candidates, too. they are mainly playi a defensive game. they don't want to screw up. >> absolutely. and they're playing a rounding game. whether you're the democratic nominee or the republican nominee, you're trying to round the corners, unsharpen the edges and move toward the center because you're going at that... yore going toward...

everybods going for the inspects, the uncommitted ones. they've already t their people. sohen you've got to... as a consequence... nobody wants to ke a mistake because one mistake, a physical error, like george h.w. bush looked at his watch and that hurt him. you mentned al gore sighing against george w. bush, that hurt him. >> rose: gerald ford said poland wasn't under the domination of the soviet union. >> absolutely and those kinds of things can literally change not only who conquers in the debate but who wins the elections. so everybody knows that. >> rose: also there is a perception of you, you can change in the a debate. you can be more relaxed, you can be more... especially if you're the lesser known candidate. ronald reagan versus jimmy carter. >> exactly. this was true in 2008, charlie. the first... i moderated it, it

was betwn obama and mccain the perception of those two candidates... obama still wasn't that well known nationally. and mccain was known but they each had... they had kind of their... >> rose: mccain had run before. >> but the expectations for mccain was that he was kind of fidget gee, nervous, got angry and that kind of thing. and the thing about obama w he was cool but nobody really knew that, they hadn't seen him. so what happened in that first debate because i was there as the moderator trying to get them talk to each other, that was new rule, they were allowed to speak to each other and ask each other questions. mccain wouldn't do it. mccain wouldn't even look at obama. >> looked at the audience? >> looked at me or the audience. and obama kept doing what i asd, would look right at mccain, called him john and mccain would look right at me and say "well, senator obama,"

this and that. and the polls showed that this annoyed people. it gave an impression of this man that was confirmed thing in a negative way and the impression of obama was a confirming thing in a positive way d the polls show that they were neck in neck when that debate started, when it was over obama took control. in other words went ahead of mccain and stayed ahead from then on. and dan balz and hanes johnson in their book said that they believe that that was a turning point and it didn't have anything to do about words or issues. >> there's also the famous first debate which was kennedy/nixon. and you talk about what nixon said in his own memoir. >> he said i spent too much time thinking about what i was going to say and no time about how i looked and as a consequence he looked terrible. >> he came from the hospital.

kennedy was naturally tan. >> and howard k. smith who was the moderator said mr. vice president, we have a makeup person here. no makeup, he had somebody put powder on which made it worse. >> rose: and kennedy was rested >> and, you know, it's a cliche now but many of these debates and... this was the first one where people who listened to it on the rad thought nixon won, people watching on television thought kennedy won. >> rose: and that's why nixon realizeed that, too. >> absoluty right. >> rose: there is also this famous one which we're going to see now where ronald reagan used humor because in one debate he seemed old. >> he was old. >> rose: and the next one people were beginning to speculate maybe. and here's what ronald reagan said and we'll talk about it. roll tape. >> you already are the oldest president in history. some of your staff say you were tired after your most recent encounter with mr. mondale.

i recall that president kendy came in with very little sleep during the cuban missile crisis. is there any doubt in your mind that you would be able to function in su circumstances? >> not at all. and i want you to know that also i will not make age an issue of this campaign. i am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexpernce. (laughter) (cheers and applause) >> rose: mondale said... >> mondale told me, he said i knew right then i'd lost the election. and i said did you actually say that to anybody? he said i told my wife right after that debate. i said he did me i >> the one issue he might have been able to allow to creep in. >> exactly. >> rose: he couldn't use it. >> because at the first debate mondale had defeated reagan in

their first debate. and so all issues seemed to kind of be disconnected and all of that and that was beginning to catch on as a possible campaign issue against reagan. this put it aside and you see mondale laughing and he said... in fact what he said to me was he said i was laughing but tears with i my eyes. (laughter) >> rose: there's also bernie shaw formerly of cnn who asked a famous question of michael dukakis, his wife, about his wife. he now says that there was great question as to whether he should do that among his fellow panelists. >> that's right. he has no second thoughts at all. i talked to him about it. he said i don't have any first thoughts about it. he thought that was fair question then, he still thinks it was a fair question. at the time there were three panelists, that was when they had that format, one moderator, three panelists and the three panelists, margaret warner now the newshour, ann compton, still

with abc news and andrea mitchell still with nbc news. and they were opposed to bernie using kitty dukakis's name. they thought... it was a mistake and they couldn't talk him out of it and he's still annoyed about it frankly, that they even tried to talk him out of it. >> rose: bernie is. how about dukakis? >> well, dukakis... dukakis told me at least at my interview a few yes later he said, hey, look, maybe it was a mistake the way i... the question he... the issue here wasreally in the final analysis it was dukakis's answer not bernie's questn. if dukakis had said "i'd want to kill him. i'd grab him." but george h.w. bush said that's what he should have said. but if dukakis had done that well, then the issue nobody would even probably have remembered the question. they certainly wouldn't have

remembered it as a negative. david broder said right after that "dukakis has had it" because he started... he turned it into a treatise on capital punishment. >> rose: and that plus the famous picture of anymore the tank. >> absolutely. again, a visual. >> exactly. these things... we've got to keep in mind it's the full person who runs for president. it isn't just the person who has points of view. >> rose: here is the famous question from bernie shaw to governor dukakis. >> governor if kitty kakis were raped and murdered would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer? >> no, i don't, bernard and i think you know that i opposed the death penalty during allof my life. i don't se any evidence that it's a deterrent and i think there are better and more effective ways to deal with violent crime. we've done so in my own state and it's one of the reasons why we have had the biggest drop in

crime of any industrial state in america. why we have the lowest murder rate of any industrial state in america. >> well, dukakis explained to me he said, look, he had been running... he'd been the governor of massachusetts, he' been running for public office for years and he'd talked about capital punishment. he just automatical saw it as an issue question. he didn'see it as a person question. he just assumed that that's what really what wereny shaw was getting at. and he just had said this so many times that... and he... he is... he said he made a mistake but he looked at it and he's looked at it several times since then but he says he's not sure in the same event... in the same environment he wouldn't have done the same thing again. >> rose: of all the candidates for the presidency that you have been part of who was the most impressive in debates? in terms of helping himself? >> helping himself? well, i charlie, it's hard to

pick out one or to. >> rose: (laughs) >> but it's a very interesting question. let's face it, bill clinton is mr. articulate. >> rose: he would walk towards the person being asked the question, walk open with openness. it's what we call emotional intelligence. >> exactly right. george george w. bush, wtever he... excuse me, george w. bush had a way in these debates to make... people liked him. he came over as a likable human being. and people like to like their president. and r people who are kind of waivering anleaning one way or another or undecided, they're looking for a reason to vote for somebody, that can be a reason alone. >> rose: a confirming thing. >> it sure can. >> rose:o you would advise a candidate-- even though you've never been in the advice business--

>> (laughs) you're trying, charlie, you're trying. >> rose: what have you got to worry about him? i mean, let's get to know you. >> oh, right, okay. well, here's the advice i have to all candidates and i include the republican candidates who are doing debates now. >> rose: all right >> answer the question. >> rose: hello, michele. >> what has happened with these candidates whether they're nominees or whether they want to be nominees what they do is... what is your position on whether or not we should reform social security. well, they ask... they don't answer it. that go to somewhere else and then somebody has to say hey, no but the question was... every candide would just say well, i'm in favor of reforming social security now let me explain. but they... >> rose: let me tell you what i mean by reform. >> exactly. what they do is start with a

story from their childho or something totally irrelevant and then have to be pushed into answering. at they fail to realize is millions of people who are watching on televisionlso know that candidate didn't answer the question. it doesn take somebody like you or me to yell at somebody and say "hey, you didn't answer the question." (laughs) >> rose: they're looking at them asking "can i imagine this person as my president?" >> you got it. sitting behind the oval office, making a decision about sending young americans into arm's way and another katrina. >> rose: is he or she comfortable with themselves in their own skin? >> and presidents are truly judged in the final analysis about the unexpected, not the expected. they talk about all these issues and here's my plan for the economy and this and that and whatever. but what they really want to know about these people as best they can find out before they vote is how he orhe would handle the unexpected. and after they're looking for...

that's why the debates are so important at all level >> rose: how do you think the perception of president oba s changed since he was elected? >> it's changed dramatically. >> rose: (laughs) yeah, i know that. the question is... >> well, you read the polls. >> rose: how has it changed? >> well, it's... he probably... i think it's safe toay and fair to say and unpundit to say... you're not going to turn me into a pundit, charlie, i don't care how hard you try. but he had two phases, he was the candidate, now he's in his governoring phase. >> rose: let's just suppose you were running for president. >> okay. >> rose: can i rephrase the question, sir, and get an answer from you? how has the president of the united states changed as you have watched him from you perch on the newshour? >> rose: heas not changed very much at all. he is still operating the same way, his mind still works the same way. >> rose: his perception has changed? the perception of him? and what has it become? >> all right, here's the thing.

remember, he was elected to... >> rose: change. >> to change. but there were huge things that needed... change you can believe it n but the financial crisis had just begun. he was not necessarily elected to change... to do as many things as he's now had to change. >> rose: but he promised health care. >> he promised health care but he didn't promise it double dog promise. he didn't run on it. you know, you didn't needily say vote for obama, you're going to get health care reform. there were some things about afghanistan and iraq and all of that sort of stuff but when he got into the oval office as the president he found that there are realities. all the new presidents find out there are realities once you get behind that table, behind that desk. and he continued to think the same way he thought thought which worked for him as a candidate and some would argue istill working for him as president but it's the perception that he has not been

on top of things in a governing way. he hasn't been able to do what he was doing as president. >> rose: as well as he could be inspirational. >> exactly. this is hands-on government and he's perceived now as not having done some of that really as great as he was expected to do have done. did i handle that all right? >> rose: better. better. >> better? ay. (laughs) >> rose: next time i do this interview we'll do the big one on the personal and career. >> i'll lay it all out. >> rose: i'm taking kate out to dinner and we'll find out. a couple of those marine buddies that will be good. >> rose: there was also this story. during the debate... you mentioned the rules. peter jennings said to you before one debate the hell with the rules, let's get them together. let's get them to do what everybody wants them do, see

them go at each other, questions answers. right? and you said... >> i said we can't do that. i said we gave our words that we would... the debate commission is the one who asked us to do this. they're the es who asked us to moderate or participate in those debates under these rules: and we agreed, at least i took the position with peter. i said, peter, we agreed to do this and enforce these rules. i don't think we have the prerogative to put these rules aside. the other two panelists, the late john mashic, my friend, he and i worked together in dallas. we started together on the dallas morning news. but he was in with the atlanta "constitution" and annie grower who was in with the orlando sentinel and they both agreed with me. and we didn't take a vote. it was over.

and peter said okay, man, that's great. i just wanted to say... peter was not... he wasn't playing any games. hi had an honest, sincere... >> rose: the candidates themselves, they understand the consequences. their handlers battle over every possible nuance. where are you going to shoot him? how far away is he going to be? you're going to have a cushion, not a cushion. ishe going to be standing? >> temperature? theoom. nobody wants to sweat. but the other side, if the guy's a sweater, maybe he'll look nervous. it's incredible, charlie. everybody wants an advantage because so much is at stake here. those people who worked with these candidates they only had one thing in mind and that's winning. >> rose: you think al gore... the post-election controversy is probably the most sering in his mind, but do you think he believes his debate performance

because it was so close may have kept him from... >> that's what i would love to ask him. i honestly do not know. what he told me at the end... i moderated all three of those debates with gore and bush and at the end of the third one we were on the stage in st. louis, we just finished the debate and he said to me... he used this line with others, too, he said "well, first debate i was too hot, second debate i was too cold and i think this third one i got it just right." but that was the one where he stalked bush, remember? he walked aroun and i'm thinking, yes, sir, mr. vice president, yes, sir. you know, but i...see that's what i would loved to have talk to him about. eventually he's going to talk about it, i know he is. probably not to me. >> rose: i'll get him on here to talk about the environment and i'll ask him the damn question. i'll say lehrer put me up to this but i'm asking on behalf of my friend jim. >> that's right. >> rose: exactly what do you think of that debate.

>> i'd appreciate it very much. is that a deal? ros yes it is. >> if youdo that, i'll answer any question yousk me. >> rose: all right, let's look athe vice president. here he is. former vice president al gore. >> i can get it done, that i can get somethin positive done on behalf of the people. that's what the question in this campaign is about. it's not only what's your philosophy and what's your position on issues but can you get things done? (laughter) and i believe i can. >> rose: (laughs) that was great. >> (laughs) it was! >> rose: what is he doing there? >> that's when he... when he approached him. it wasn't just that he approached him he also bought a knew new suit that was long so it made him look taller and he wore boots. in other words, some aisor had said "intimidate him." >> and remember the woman who

advised him to wear beige? remember that? >> oh, yeah, earth colors. cool you off with earth colors. >> rose: you are writing novels, you've got another one coming out which goes back to that day in dallas when you were working... by that time it was the morning news? >> i was the times herald. >> rose: a that day you went up to a secret service guy, wasn't it? >> that's right. >> rose: who had enabled them because he said it's a none? ny day, take the bubble off. and he always blamed himself. >> that's it. it's always haunted me since then and i have... i've written a novel based on it. it's about a secret service agent, about the agent, the fictional secret service agent 40 who did that and how it affected his life afterward and his daughter and all that stuff. i've been working on it a while and i had a l of problems with it, getting it right. i'm getting close, though. i think i'll get it right. >> rose: what's the problem?

>> oh, i went off on some p.t.s.d. things, you know, how it affected him. >> rose: oh, post-traumatic stress disorder? >> yes and i started writing about things i didn't know enough about to be writing about them and my story got too complicated and fortunately i had some help. again, my editor but also my wife kate who's a novelist said, you know, you need to... she had a suggestion of how i might fix this terrible problem and it worked. >> rose: the great jim lehrer "tension city: inside the presidential debates from kennedy/nixon to obama/mccain. my view from the middle seat." why did they want you... you are... this is amang. i sit here green with envy over the fact that you had this opportunity to do this and no one could have done it any better but did ty ever say to you why you, lehrer? >> yes. because they couldn't agree on anybody else.

(laughs) >> rose: i know better. you can't say that abo my hero you know what i mean? >> (laughs) okay. >> rose: peter bard is here. in 1967 he left his job as a "new york times" reporter to become the number-two production executive at paramount pictures. his arrival coincided with the dawn of a new and exhilarating era in film making. during his eight years at the studio, its roster of films included such now undisputed classics as "the godfather" rosemary's baby" "chinatown" and others. here is a look.

>> what have you done to it? what have youone to its eyes? >> he has his father's eyes. >> next year i have a scholarship in paris. >> paris? >> yeah, i've never been the europe. i can hardly wait. >> how long have you known about this? >> come on, ollie, don't be stupid, would you please? it's inevitable. >> what is? >> that we're graduate and go our separate ways and you're going to go on to law school. >> what are you talking about? >> youe a preppy mlionaire and i'm a social... >> what does that have to do with going our separate ways? we're together now, aren't we? we're happy. >> look, harvard is like this big santa claus bag stuffed with crazy toys but when the holiday is over... >> this has been a little bit more of a holiday. >> you're going back to where you belong. >> you're going back to cranston rhode island and make cookies?

>> pastries! and don't make fun of my father! >> then don't leave me, jenny. >> this man is taking it personally. >> where does it say you can't kill a cop. >> come on, mikey. >> wait a minute, i'm talking about a cop mixed up in drugs. i'm talking about a dishonest cop, a crooked cop who got mixed up in the rocket rackets and got what was coming to him. >> that's a terrific story. well, we have newspaper people on the payroll, don't we, charlie? th might lik a story like that. >> they might. they just might. >> it's not personal. it's strictly business. >> okay. it's okay. i'm a friend. come on.

>> darling! >> the point is, i'm not in business to be loved but i am in business. whoever set your husband up set me up. l.a.'s a small town, people talk i'm trying to make a living, i don't want to become a local joke. >> i'll drop the lawsuit. >> what? >> i said i'll drop the lawsuit. let's just drop the whole thing. sugar, lemon? >> both. mrs. mull ray, i don't want to drop it. i better talk to your husband abt this. >> why? what on earth for? he seems to think you're an innocent man. >> well, i've been accused of a lot of things before, mrs. mull ray, but never that. >> rose: peter bard reflects on his time a paramount in his book "infamous players" pleased

to have peter bart. you had this great career before and after paramount. what are you doing now? writing book >> yes, i write books but i have a t.v. show. >> rose: it's in hiatus. >> that's right. and i write a column for "variety" still and i'm doing a piece for hbo. i do all kinds of things. >> rose: back when you did a profile ofob evans and bob evans says "come work for me"? >> no, bob evans says "don't run that, it's embarrassing" because it was a snarky piece in the "new york times" b bob was a really close friend of mine. then he got offered this amazing job to run paramount and he said i have no credentials for this job. u have no credentials either so i'd like you to come work as my aide-de-camp because you can never make me look bad. >> rose: a bit like bill moyers hired me to come work in

television the very first time i had a television show. and i was a lawyer in new york city and moyers said "i want you to work for me." i said "i don't know anything about television. he said "neither do i." >> but that's the best point of view from which to approach it because in the '70s the movie business was being totally reinvented so those of us, bob and i coming in not knowing the system were able to do better in it because we could invent a new system. >> and the system you invented was what? >> well, basically, here's the outrageous thing about the '70s in hollywood. the people who ran studios actually made pictures they wanted to see. that unthinkableoday. i asked a couple heads of production recently, the pictures you've made, were you really looking forward to seeing these? and they sort of blanched and said "not actually." >> rose: you want to make movies

that you like to see. evans had one what? >> great taste and charm. >> and he could persuade anyone to do anything. i could come up with ideas about such and such a picture would be great for this actor or director but he would make those people do it. >> rose: by pursuit, pursuit, pursuit. >> and great intelligence and sometime he is knew just what sexual innuendos to offer. that helps. >> rose: what does that mean? >> that means that if you're talking to someone... i love roman plan ski and you know him, too. but if helps if you're talking to roman and trying to persue him to come to hollywood to do "rosemary's by a" it helps if you say to roman "the girls are beautiful, we can fix you up with great dates." that interested roman more than "rosemary's baby" did. >> he's got a new movie at the venice film festival. >> i hear it's terrific. roman is a wonderful artist.

its a shame but understandable that he can't come back here. >> that they couldn't find some resolution of that. >> they could not. roman was a naughty guy. >> rose: let me go back to evans. "the godfather" is considered one of the american classics. do you think so? >> it's become so iconic. when it was first released the distribution company didn't like it. the heads of marketing description says it was too slow and talky, wouldn't do business. the public had discovered the novel and the novel... see, when we bought "the godfather", the rights to it, it was an unfinished novel. studios did it in those days, they bought books before they were done. and then became this tremendous best-seller but you... >> rose: but when you bought it, it was not a tremendous best seller? >> it was not even done. >> rose: and you made the movie before it was done? >> we made... by the time we finished the movie the book had

exploded as a best-seller. you know, theilm cost $7 million to produce. which wouldn't even pay craft services on most of the big pictures like "captain america" today. you could make... >> rose: craft seices is what, feeding the crew? >> food. (laughter) >> rose: do there you go. but francis ford coppola didn't think much of the book. he did not like th book and to this dais somewha pissed off at me for sort of beating up on them to do this thing because he felt... he never want to be what he calls a commercial director. he wanted to makthe kinds of pictures which he's made in the last three or four years which are little pictures for a limited audience and he felt this was sort of commercial and cheap. >> rose: he's different from george lucas, isn't he? >> yes. well,eorge... the funny thing about "star wars" is george did not make "star wars" as a tent pole picture. he regarded it as a personal picture, too.

and that's what's interesting about ose guys. the first of these big pictures were not aimed that way. they were aimed as art pictures, if you will. >> rose: could you persuade brando... not you but all of you brando to the godfather or did he desperately need a break? >> brando desperately needed a break and he hated the role then he really got into it and did this famous secret audition when he actuallyent with francis and put the stuff in his mouth... >>ose: cotton or something. >> he became magically, instantly he became "the godfather". >> rose: and francis saw that imdiately. >> francis knew it from the start. but the c.e.o. of paramount and gulf and western which owned paramount in those days, everyone fought brando. they said he was cold, he just made an awful picture called "burn." no one wantedhim for this role. that's what's interesting about "the godfather" and most really great pictures is they always are created in opposition to

everyone. >> rose: is that right? to make a good movie, people don't want you do it? >> absolutely. i always felt the best ingredient on the set of the movie is conflict. if everyone loves everyone else, you know it will be a boring movie. >> rose: how about "chinatown?" polanski directs, nicholson stars. >> that was evanson's dream and by force of personality made it happen. all these pictures, charlie, were products to such a degree of the '70s and that's what characterized... to me the reason i wrote "infamous players" because it was my trek through the '70s. everything in a movie studio magnifies experience. the styles, the sex, all of the intrigues of the 70s to see it from the point of view of the studio made it all exaggerated and surreal. so the reason i wrote the book

is sort of my through the '70s. >> rose: great to have you here. >> it was a joy to talk to you. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access groupt wgbh access.wgbh.org

no. well, it's just past there. first house in the right after the cottage on the l don't panic. brazen it out. me? - no. - right. here goes. yippee!

09/15/11 09/15/11 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] >> from pacifica, this is "democracy now!" "democracy now!"