>> hinojosa: she is a tireless advocate of dialogue between iran and the u.s. but on a 2007 trip to tehran, she was accused of treason, arrested, and placed in solitary confinement for 105 days. director of the middle east program at the woodrow wilson center, haleh esfandiari. i'm maria hinojosa. this is one on one. dr. haleh esfandiari, welcome to our program. >> thank you for having me. >> hinojosa: so, in the fall of 2007... no, in the spring of

2007, suddenly i go to my computer and i start seeing these emails that say, "there is an iranian-american academic who is being held in a tehran prison. do everything that y can to try to get her out." and of course i started sending that to many people, and i received it from women's groups, from journalist groups, from human rights groups. i don't remember any of those emails saying that haleh esfandiari was a grandmother who was detained. how did you survive? you were 105 days in solitary confinement. >> it was very tough, maria, but i am a very disciplined person. and being 67 years old and a student of iran, having studied carefully, a lifetime, iran, i knew how to handle my

interrogators, and i knew how to make it possible for myself to survive under those very difficult and dire conditions, both physical and mental. >> hinojosa: when you say that you knew, what do you mean? i mean, you had never been in prison, you had never been interrogated before. how did you know how to survive these people who were terrorizing you? >> i was interrogated for four months before i was detained. outside prison, i used to spend with the same people eight to nine hours a day, day after day after day, going over the same questions and answers. and i knew their mentality. but once they took me in, i mean, i decided i either had to survive, or if i succumbed to

despair, then they would have achieved what they wanted, meaning a forced confession from me. >> hinojosa: you say that you never broke down when you were being interrogated, and i just think, "oh, my god, if i'm being interrogated nine hours a day, same question after same question, there would come a point where i would just say, 'i've done with you! be quiet! i don't want to hear...'" you know, just lose it. and yet you didn't. >> no, i didn't, because i knew that they wanted me to lose my temper. they wanted me to become angry. and then they would achieve what they had wanted. and i decided not to. and i would cry, but not in front of my interrogators, not the women guards. i would go to my cell at night, and when i would lie down on the

floor on a few blankets, i would put my head under the chador, which was acting as my cover, and my sheet, you know, and i would cry there. or i would go and cry under the shower. but i never cried in front of my interrogators. i never cried in front of women's guards. >> hinojosa: you know, you are... when people read your book my prison, my home, which is a story of your detention and the history of us-iranian relations, you are now a role model of a woman of strength. you... and i love this story. you survived... part of what you did to survive was that you would do pilates in solitary confinement in a women's prison in iran. >> yes. >> you were walking back and forth in your cell for hours. how did you develop that level

of discipline, to just say, you know, "i will do my exercises, you know, for an hour here, for an hour there"? where did that kind of strength come from? >> i didn't have a watch, first of all. you know, they took my watch. so when i was not interrogated, i had to kill the time. and i was suffering from macular degeneration, so i couldn't read more than maybe two hours a day, especially since i was writing all the time during the interrogation. i had to write the answers. >> hinojosa: by hand. >> by hand. >> hinojosa: with a pen. >> or a pencil, whatever was available. so i decided that if i don't do anything, if i go and sit in a corner of my cell, i would start thinking about my family. and i knew thinking about my family would break me down. so i decided that i have to do

something to keep my body at least in good shape, quote-unquote, you know? and since i'm a fanatic about exercising, i like pilates, i like walking, i decided to do pilates in my cell, and i decided to walk up and down the cell and count. so by doing pilates and counting all the time, it stopped me from thinking about that. >> hinojosa: did the women guards who were guarding you think you were a little crazy? here's this, you know, grandmother... >> 67-year-old woman. >> hinojosa: who's doing pilates and exercising in her cell. did they think you were... or did they look at you and say, "maybe i need to learn something from haleh"? >> well, it was interesting. some of them would come to me and say, "could you teach us some of the movement to tighten the muscles of our stomach," or,

"could you teach us how to get our triceps in shape," you know? and i would laugh, and i would teach them, you know. they would stand by the door, because they were not allowed to come into the cell when we were... when the inmates were in the cell. so they would stand by the door, and i would go on the floor and show them some situps, you know? but re, they had ner come across someone as strange as me. because they would come to me and say, "why don't you sit still?" because as long as i was moving they had to come and check regularly on me. but if i was sitting in a corner they could go out and have their cup of tea. >> hinojosa: so in the end... you know, again, from this... on this side, while you were being detained, we knew that you were an iranian-american academic, the head of the woodrow wilson center middle east program. but why do you bieve

ultimately, that you were arrested, you know, interrogated? why were you the target? >> i was the target of the iranian intelligence ministry and the office of the president, president ahmadinejad. and they believed that the united states was going to overthrow the regime, but because it was bogged down in iraq and in afghanistan-- don't forget, it was during the previous administration in 2007-- so they would resort to what they would call "soft means." and the instrument for bringing about such regime change through a velvet revolution, though soft means, were american foundations, american think tanks, and american universities. they didn't know how these institutions in the united states work. >> hinojosa: so let me... so basically, the iranian intelligence ministry and president's office believed that

the woodrow wilson center, and you specifically, were holding conferences around iranian issues, not with the intention of having academic dialogue, but with the ultimate intention of rthering american government policy to destabilize iran. >> perfectly-- you put it perfectly. their idea, or their understanding, was that we are inviting-- with the wilson center or other foundations, other think tanks, whatever-- were inviting iranian academics basically to recruit them, you know. >> hinojosa: so you're like a spy. i mean, you were, like, operating on behalf of the government. >> operating on behalf of the american government. and, you know, i would argue back. for eight months i had back-and-forth argument with these people, and trying to explain how these institutions

in the united states work, that universities are not affiliated to the u.s. government, that think tanks are independent, and foundations not only support, let's say, a program on iran, but they support programs on poverty, you know, alleviating poverty and many other things, for example. but didn't make headway at all, because they were convinced that this was all a front and that i was the perfect, you know, target for the u.s. government to be recruited and to be sent to iran to invite people-- which was ridiculous, you know. >> hinojosa: but at the same time, you know, the u.s. government-- not only the bush administration but other governments in the past-- have not been completely honest in terms of their relationships

with other governments. >> sure, sure. >> hinojosa: i mean, there are stories of u.s. involvement in otherthrows... >> sure, sure. >> hinojosa: ...whether they were soft overthrows or direct overthrows. >> sure, sure. >> hinojosa: so, you know, if you put yourself in the mind of the iranian government, they could in fact say, "yeah, the united states, they've done this before." >> yeah, but look. i mean, iran sees itself as the mightiest power in the persian gulf region. i remember one day through my interrogation, when again they brought up this whole notion of velvet revolution. i said, "look, iran is not a banana republic to be overthrown by 20 academics who come and take part in conferences. you consider yourself the mightiest power in the persian gulf. how do these two notions reconcile with each other?" and they said, "banana republic? what is a banana republic?" then i had to go into this, you

know, the long lecture of what a banana republic is, because in persian it sounded very funny. >> hinojosa: you would allow yourself to push back against your interrogators sometimes. not often. what gave you that kind of like... that strength at that moment, to say, "i am going to push back; i am going to point out the silliness in their own thought"? >> the was so much one can take, you know. i'm a very rational person. and for days and days and days you hear... you sit there and hear a lot of nonsense. at some stage you can't take it anymore, and therefore that's when i would push back, really, and i would say, "okay, i think you are wrong. i think you don't understand how these things function in the real world." >> hinojosa: would you say it kind of like that, in that kind of a tone? >> sure, sure. >> hinojosa: of a stern mother almost? >> sure, and i would always tell them, "look, i can easily be

your grandmother. i don't know how old your mothers are or your grandmothers are," you know. i never, you know... i was blindfolded taken to interrogation, and i had two interrogators. when the second one, who was the boss, was there, i had to sit and face the wall. >> hinojosa: it's so crazy. now, in the end, after 105 days, you are released. they give you a gift, a parting gift of poetry, a beautiful book of poetry. but why, in the end, do you think you were released? did it have to do with those emails that those of us here in this country were sending? what was the ultimate decision as to why? >> i think the international pressure had a lot to do with my release. it really did. i mean, i didn't know-- i was in prison, completely cut off from the rest of the world. >> hinojosa: and did you think that people in the united states

cared, knew? >> absolutely not. all i knew is that my husband would do everything he can to get me out. but i didn't know that they had... really there was a whole world working on my behalf, all the way from japan to brazil, you know? i mean, it was amazing. i found out once i was released. but i think there was a big discussion going on internally in the intelligence ministry among the people who arrested me and who were opposed to my arrest. in the beginning, when they arrested me, the more radical element of the intelligence ministry prevailed. in the end, when they released me, it was because the office of the leader intervened and the more moderate elements in the intelligence ministry finally got their way and said, "okay,

this is becoming too embarrassing for us. let her go." because i was released in september and president ahmadinejad comes every year towards the end of septembero attend the united nations... >> hinojosa: the united states, right, of course. >> ...meeting in the u.s. and i think they decided that he would probably face a barrage of questions about arresting a 67-year-old grandmother and... >> hinojosa: i think he might have, yes. i think he might have found a lot of people protesting and probably a lot of women. your cause for women academics, for women journalists, for women activists, for feminists, your cause became so important. and i think that there are many people who don't know about the nature of the iranian women's movement. it is a very strong and historical movement of women in iran. and you were a part of that as well. >> yes.

>> hinojosa: talk a little bit about that history of women's engagement. because, you know, so many people now in this country just see the veiled iranian woman, who seems submissive, who seems powerless. in fact, it's quite different. >> actually, even today... let me start with today and go back. even today, iranian women are not submissive. absolutely not. you know, for the last 30 years, it has been the women who have formed the only group who stood up to the regime because the idea of this regime was to send women back to their homes. you know, they had served their purpose, they had come out, they had protested in favor of overthrowing the monarchy, the establishment of an islamic republic. thank you very much, go home. but women were not going to go home, and they started fighting at every step of the way, every new law that was passed in

restricting women's rights in iran. just to give you an example, the age of marrying was lowered after the revolution from 18... for girls, from 18 to nine. >> hinojosa: to nine? >> to nine, which is puberty in islam. there was such an outcry. there was so much protest, so much activity that finally, after 20 years, ten years ago they increased it to 13. but this does not mean that every iranian girl is married off by the age of 13; on the contrary, the mean age of marriage in iran for girls is now over 20. but still, it was the women who pushed and pushed and pushed. and women from all strata of the society. i mean, i can't believe that the conservative woman wants to marry off her daughter at the age of 13. or, for example, the right to seek a divorce. or polygamy.

you know, or political participation of women. all these things were taken away from women, you know. and it was the women who were pushing back from... from this. and in 2006, a group of women and men started a campaign in iran to collect a million signatures to do away with all discrimination against women. the leader of the campaign now is sitting in jail. when i was in jail, they would constantly arrest members of the campaign, bring them to prison, release them, arrest another group. so this has been an ongoing situation. but all these activities go back to the early days of the 20th century, when the iranian women's movement started and started, you know, demanding their rights and have been pushing since for equal rights. >> hinojosa: in fact, the

iranian government now is quite worried about the women's movement. >> sure. >> hinojosa: because they worry that if the women's movement actually takes off, it could be something that could be very much a threat to the government. >> in prison, maria, they were telling me all the time that, "we can deal with any protest except with the women's movement because what can we do if suddenly we have a hundred thousand women in the street of tehran and in each big city? we cannot arrest all of them; we cannot shoot them." i mean, they really were concerned. >> hinojosa: why did they say... why would they say that to you? if you were an enemy, why would they reveal the fact that they felt weak in front of the face of the women's movement? >> you know, they also wanted to show the other side of it. they would try and explain to me, maybe because i came across as a very rational person, they

wanted to show also occasionally that they can be rational, too, and say, "look, we are doing these things because we are concerned." they would never say "scared," but i knew they were scared. "we are concerned about the women's movement." and that's why an international women's league, when you have a thousand women gathering in park, they just go arrest them, you know, disperse them. and you saw what happened after the presidential election of june 2009. i mean, there were young women and men, shoulder to shoulder, standing with each other, demonstrating in the streets of tehran. and they went viciously after them. >> hinojosa: women in iran now actually have the higher registration in terms of college, but still they face all of these restrictions. and the whole history of the veil in iran is actually in... because when the shah was there,

they wanted to make that the veil was taken away. and then the revolution happens and the veil is imposed, stricter conditions on the veil. and now it seems as if you never quite know if, you know, if you're supposed to be covered, how much you're supposed to be covered, if you can sh... talk to us about the subtle ways that iranian women can manifest their protest against this. >> officially, you are supposed to observe the islamic dress code, which is you have to cover your head and you have to wear loose robe or a long veil. but, again, in incremental step, the younger generation have managed to reformulate this islamic dress code. and now on the streets of tehran, you see young women walking in very tight jeans, very short robes and a

skimpy piece of cloth on their head, which is meant to be their head cover. so if you have thousands doing this, what can you do? >> hinojosa: and do you have thousands of women... >> you have tens of thousands of women. >> hinojosa: wearing tight pants on the streets of tehran? >> tight pants, you have seen that, and short robes and wearing makeup and just a very sort of short, loose scarf. and there is nothing you can do about it. >> hinojosa: but it could turn out that in... that tomorrow, suddenly they decide that that is not allowed and suddenly they could be arrested? >> it is not allowed anyway, and on a daily basis, quite a few are arrested. >> hinojosa: so it's happened, the arrests. >> it has been happening for the last 30 years, but women have ignored it. these young women have completely ignored this dress code, you know. and they can because in the

early days of the revolution, you were supposed to wear somber colors-- black, dark brown, dark blue. now, you don't see any of such things among the younger generation. you see them looking very colorful, you know. i mean, wearing pink and red and you name it. >> hinojosa: and how much does access to the internet, to, you know, popular culture worldwide-- not just the u.s. but worldwide-- how much has that been a factor? and how much is that a fear factor for the government there? >> it's a fear factor more than anything else. because there are 30 million people who have access to the internet out of the population of 70 million. >> hinojosa: 30 million out of 70? >> out of 70, so it means almost half of the people have somehow access to the internet. plus, iran has one of the largest number of bloggers in the world. so you have these iranian bloggers, and then people have cell phone. every other iranian has access

to a cell phone, if not every iranian. and so they do text messaging, they're on twitter, they're on facebook, they blog. so, i mean, this protest movement is a very different protest movement than the one in... that lead to the revolution in 1978, '79. this is a very different one because this is an instant messaging takes place, you know? the government, after the june election, expelled all the foreign journalists from iran by refusing to renew their permit. but then they had on their hands 30 million journalists... >> hinojosa: on the ground. >> ...on the ground because everybody, to use their cell phone... >> hinojosa: and we were all getting information from... >> yes, and you were all getting information from them at this end. >> hinojosa: so, finally, haleh, you have not gone back to iran since you were detained there.

you say you cannot go back. are you optimistic? should we be optimistic about the future of iran? >> look, i'm an optimist by nature, and i believe this repressive phase that is going on in iran today-- and it's one of the worst periods of... in the history of the iranian revolution-- the sheer number of arrests, torture, killing, and what we have seen in the streets and what is happening in the prison. but i think the green movement has a future. and it is an indigenous movement; it's not run by people abroad. and it's not even influenced by them. so... and i don't think that the government will succeed in killing the movement completely. i think there is an urge among the almost 70 percent who are

under the age of 30. you cannot restrain them; you cannot restrict their movement. they have demands and they will come out to get them. >> hinojosa: and we are so thankful that you came out alive from this experience. it's just been an honor. >> thank you. >> hinojosa: thank you, dr. haleh esfandiari, thank you so much. >> thank you very much. >> hinojosa: continue the conversation at wgbh.org/oneonone. captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org