>> welcome to our program, tonight all that you've wanted to know about the incredibly phenonal television series "mad men" which begins its fifth year on sunday. we talk to jonham the actor, also the creator matthew weiner, christina hendricks, january jones and vincent kartheiser. >> i didn't know we would do anything beyond the pilot but that is what the tone was. treat them like real people. let's not dot thing where it's like the dad in the car with the pipe. that advertising image is from advertising. and people were laughing at it at the time. >> everything you have ever wanted to know about mad men

when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the following:

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: is there a television program that more talked about, mad men, the a m.c. drama about a new york ad agency in the 1960s premiered in 2007. since then it has won the emmy for outstanding drama four years in a row. perhaps no other television program around has had such a deep cultural impact from fashion and dign to invitation commercials and television shows. it seems mad men is everywhere. now after a 17 month hiatus, mad men is back. here is the teaser for see son five-- season 5.

>> then i just keep this to myself because why? >> rose: joining me now to talk about this is matthew weiner, the creator, christina hendricks who plays joan har is, january jones, vincent kartheiser who plays pete campbell and jonham who plays don draper himself. also joining us my colleague from cbs this morning, gayle king and as matt says she is almost part of the team because she was as you sa an early what. >> i'm not late to the mad men party. >> not at all. >> rose: so. >> the first person i ever knew was watching the show. >> rose: and proudly brought a photograph of her with the

cast, to me this morning to show me. but i invited her last evening and i'm pleased that she has joined us here. so what is it, i will ask you, the nonmad men person what is it for you that makes this such compelling television. >> i was born if 1954 and i was living in turkey at the time so i knew nothing, of the 6 '40s. i lived in turkey from first grade to sixth grade. so for me, it's like looking at life the way, what i was missing in the states. hi no grad what life was like and it was just so shocking to see that women were treated the way they were. blacks were treated the way they were. but there was still something hip and very dool about it too. and so from the minute i saw the first episode, charlie, i was hooked. i loved the clothes. i loved the story lines. i fell in love with him an her and him and her and-- and matthew, it just goes without saying about matthau because he created it all. >> rose: when you created it,

what were you thinking? >> i thought this was a forgotten period in american dull ture. and people basically assumed it was like from happy days to woodstock and nothing had happened in between. and i felt a lot of affinity for the period and i thought it was going to be sexy and sort of the kind of wishful of living the time when we didn't have the current burdens but there were other burdens. and i just thought it wab a tv show i wanted to see. and what's the nicest that it evolved into something, it was very personal about my life and being a man and then branching out into sort of figuring, well talking about women characters and families and it was just this great sort of construct to write in this period thing and be able to tell something so personal. >> when i think of the 60ses i think of this period as a period of cultural change, a period in which the beatles were happy and the rolling stones was happening and music was changing, and politics was changes, but this is about madison avenue in new york city in the 60s. >> well, you know, the funny

thing su talk about the beatles and rolling stones. i wanted to start beforement that i wanted to start in the high 50s and say what would it be like. >> exactly. and say like because i had been raised by baby boomers who acted like they had invented all of this stuff. i was like well, lack at all these batenicks in the early 50s and look there is a free love movement. from the 20s and the 30s it is just like this is part of the subversive part of american culture. so i wanted to see quite honestly living in the 80s where so many baby boomers had become so conservative, i was kind of as a young person looking at it and saying i think i feel more like their parents then like them. and identified with that part. and then i thought wouldn't it be amazing to sort of find adults in 1960 when new york was the center of the universe and the center of publishing and you know, business drama, television, fashion, of finance that, the apex of america's

culture being accepted abroad and being worshipped. and then sort of see what it would be like to be an adult and go that you and see this change happening in front of you. and then the next thing is you know i didn't know we would do anything beyond the pilot but that is what the tone was. treat them like real people. let's not do the thing where it's like the dad in the car with the pipe. that advertising image is from advertising. and people were laughing at it at the time. so what are people's lives like? they're the same as they are now. >> what else is it, jon, that makes the program so discussed. >> the thing that i found that was surprising throughout the last five years is looking at this is gong sound horribly sort of marketing speak but looking at the demographics of without watches our show. i what immediately assume our show would be mostly consumed by 40 and up. people that have some immediate touchstone with the time period. i was born in 1971, i'm 40 years old. i can-- i just missed the

60s. i thought it would be me and older. the surpassing thing is that we have a huge swathe of our audience is 18 to 34. college age. and again right after. and right in that knd of where we want to be. and so i think there is a, there is certainly a nostalgic element to people that watch the show. but more, i think the larger portion of it are people that for some reason this resonates in their life right now. they watch these people struggling at work. they watch these people struggling with relationships. they watch these people struggling with their perception as women or as younger people. and for whatever reason t resonates even though it's in the past. it's not set in the way past where it's old timey or completely unidentifiable. they're driving cars. they have phones, they have jobs, they work in offices, they have girlfriends, wives,

children. all of this -- >> all of this stuff is familiar enough to where it resonates somehow. >> it is setting a series of characters and relationships and stories against a backdrop of an interesting time. >> but there's also something interesting about the way the story is told. this is my personal theory on it, i think that the private moments, the cinematic moments that are silent where you actually get to see people's reactions after they have a conversation, it's not normal leigh part of drama. and i think teenagers and from teenagers and up, there is something that was businessing in the culture about admitting the fact of this privacy and maybe a little bit of loneliness and alienation from normal experience. and i think that that constant admission of that existence is something that draws people into, it's cathartic for them to have that experience. >> and a little bit of fear. it's interesting to see that even the most confident people can have se fear. >> don draper. >> yes. >> is like people leave the door half the time, how many things have we done where

the door closes and he goes-- . >> king: i wonder, dow like him? >> i do. >> king: dow, because i go back and forth. >> rose: dow like him fine. >> i go back and forth about him. >> i do. i have obviously an affinity for him. but i think it's, as any acker will tell you, it's important not to judge your character. you have to play him andou have to play him as if you are that person. so i think t better question is does don like himself. and i think that that is-- that say continuum. i think that some days he's bet we are himself. some seasons he's better with himself and some seasons he's not. i think certainly throughout season four he was having a rough time. >> rose: does he know. >> he certainly knows a part of himself. but again, one of the central ironies in the show and one of the great things that matt established at the very beginning was what we think of this person who is don draper is not what-- is

not who he thinks dun draper is. he knows in fact that he is not that person. every waking moment -- >> what do we think he is and what do we know he is. >> we think the guy is don draper. he is this other person. and i think that when you are presented with a character whose's 24 hours a day playing someone else, playing at someone else, putting on a facade of this confident, worldly, intelligent, successful married to the perfect person, putting that face out there when in reality there is a completely diffent pson hiding underneath, i think that's a pretty compelling way to present a character. >> rose: is it important to be historically accurate? >> yes, i really tray to be historically accurate. i want the audience to be watching at some sort of safe space that they're kind of eaves drop on. i don't want to have this abstraction, quite honestly for them. i don't want it to be distanced if a way. we're talking originally, you know, allen taylor was

really pushing the director of the pilot to shot in black and white. i was like black and white is abstract, you know. no, i love black and white and i think it is amazing but i thought i don't want that distance. i want people to look at it and feel like they are in it. especially there is some locations where i actually feel like you could smell it, sometimes, where there is like boxes of papers and garbage and you see the wrinkles and everything. but what i think that is the story of all the people. and one thing that needs to be said about this is like we have conversations about the show. we talk about the show this much ourselves. and -- >> like who we are and what we are about. >> yes. and as a writer, you know, it's like okay, i write everything everybody says on the show. will you hear these people talk about it. and you will realize in addition to their craft and their process they are bringing a whole, it is a performance of it is more important for me, i guess what i am saying it is more important for me than

emotionally accurate than historically accurate. and that's the thing that i think you see when the actors perform it is that there is always a way for them to, they admit the most ugly feelings. you know, the most primitive like saying this again about the privacy, the jealousy. jones' flawed expectations, you know, getting what you want and then realizing it's like you were completely confused about ba it is. pete slowly changes into a person who has earned don's respect. >> yeah. >> and then bette a person who has quite virtuously had the worst, one of the worst husbands in the world. found a man who worships her and then realizes that she is still missing the danger and excitement of that other man. and being mad about that, you know. >> because he's boring. >> you didn't know. >> to the point of historical accuracy too. it's-- in choosing to set this at a certain period of

time, there's two ways of thinking about it there are people who look and they say oh my god that didn't happen, that wasn't a tuesday, that was a wednesday, october 3rd was a wednesday but they're saying it is tuesday. and you can get all caught up in this world so we try to be, and i think the reason-- really, really tries to check the weather, check all that stuff, seously because you know there will be someone out there who is going to say. >> it was a lunar eclipse. there couldn't have been a full moon. you may have wanted to ride a full man in to have light it was actually give us waning. but more to the point, it's, you have to have a sense of realism without the filter of nostalgia. a good example of that, with the clay liston fight. people were saying-- his name was muhammed ali, the point he said is muhammad ali called himself muhammad

ali. the larger public didn't. >> oh, yeah, the new york tims by the way, the cover of the "new york times", i can't remember the author's name. the story by the way what a flashback to read the account of the fight and see some of the greatest sports writing that you've ever seen in your life. literally a series of telegrams that made you feel like you were at this --. >> i assume people like norman mailer and george plympton and people like that. >> i think the author's name might be richard, i want to say greenberg, maybe, i'm not sure. i should know this but it is a spectacular piece of wraing. and you are there. and they, it's still ali is used in quotes and saying people check it out and i'm sort of like, i don't want to hear this. what is the reality. how much, you can look at the newspaper and assume that's on everybody's mind and are you doing the worst kind of research that there is. we talked about, like, fashion, you know. the way jones dressed, everybody is like look at vogue 1960 the first season. i'm like no one can get the clothes that are in vogue. she couldn't afford it.

it's not even in the store. rachel mengin,-- had the department store, you know, she could get couture clothing. the most important part of it is, for me i want them to feel safe that it's in there and i love they are picking it apart and paying attention. i only go the other way. i only say like, if there was a snowstorm, can i use that for the story. if there was a rainy night, can i use that for the story. something bad is happening in don's life, isn't it great? when was it raining in this period. >> rose: as we ended the fourth season where was your character. where in your mind your character what place. >> betty was the last scene you see her, not the last scene of the episode. the second to last scene don and bette are in the draper kitchen, the draper home kitchen. >> this was good. >> don comes in and betty, you see her kind of primping, sort of a settup that she's there. she's kind of railroading

him and stops him and basically explains that she's unhappy. and he tells her that he is engaged. so it's very sad moment for them. >> for both of them. i thought it was a sad moment for both of them. >> yeah, i think-- well, not as for don, i don't think. because he's kind of happy. i mean he's engaged and he's happy. and i think he must pitty betty a bet bit. but it was an emotional scene to shoot. >> rose: ron tate. >> remember this place. >> i do. >> different, that's for sure. >> isn't that the way you want it? >> i don't know, don. things aren't perfect. >> so you will move again.

>> the change made everything difficult. >> i have to tell you something, i met someone. i'm engaged. >> really? someone at work. >> oh i'm very happy for you.

>> it's okay, betty. >> i don't know why i'm surprised. is she your secretary? i know she-- kids in california. >> yes charlie, did you see how january did that swallow. oh. and just how you held that, and just the silence between the two of them. >> the silence was very good. >> you could write a line in there and sometimes i do write in a what, which is what happens when people are stunned. but i don't even remember if it was the script. >> rose: you don't know whether it was in there and you talk it out. >> i actually think there wasn't one in there because i took it out before the actor saw it. and you know, you're sitting there watching it, watch through the monitor. i don't really watch through the lens or anything and just like, you just feel like this is so, that is what i am saying about it being private. she can't hide what she feels. >> a behavioral moment.

the other fact when i saw that was how many times has that line been said, i've met someone. >> yeah. >> rose: where is your character? >> well, at the office he's kind of the man. roger sterling just lost lucky strike and i think what most of the rest of the accounts are peters. and he's kind of running the show there. and he is backed up don draper over the security clearance thing, kind of taken a hit for don earlier in the season. and now don has pitched in 50,000 dollars as pete campbell's portion to keep the agency up and running. >> there's a little matter of blackmail. that you tried to blackmail. >> sure. but that -- >> that is why she is here. >> someone tried a blackmail number. >> that was cate awhile ago. and you know, they've-- it's not water under the bridge but they have moved on. >> but they have come to an understanding which is

interesting to see that the two of you have come together. >> you never know how loyalty is born. >> that's trau. >> and at home. >> loyalty is born. >> yes. >> cooper says that, after he ousts him and walks off where cooper says you know, you can fire him if you want to but one never knows how loyalty is born. >> why is joan. >> when we left. >> yeah. well, this is one of the cliffhangers. >> yeah. >> a fun cliffhanger. she, her husband is away at war and she has had a moment of weakness again with roger. >> a former. >> and ends up pregnant and they decide to get an abortion and without his knowledge she decides no the to. so we see her at the end pregnant. >> and her husband knows and believes it to be his. >> and how much do the acters contribute to how you see their character. >> oh, tremendously. tremendously. i hire people for day parts and it become, they become

series regulars. so a lot of times i get to see them performing and a lot of times when they come in to audition, everyone audition force the sho every person you have seen has auditioned for the show and has come in and read the part. a lot of times i will just get, it's kind of lake am radio, a sense of who they are and how they talk and start trying to write for them that way. but then they get it and do what they are going to dom. i don't know what they are going to do but the people sitting at this table are here because it is always better than the script. >> always better than the script. >> always. >> what have you tried to do with your character. >> i try to accurately bring out its subtext of what i see in the script. it's all performance. we have conversation. this is the thing, when you hear actors why am i doing this or why would he do that.

it's all a trust issue and a lot of times it's been thrown together because the writer wants something to happen or the director. they are in an environment where i start working three months before they get there. and i have planned things out and it doesn't mean i don't make mistakes or that there aren't questions or things don't have to be explained because i never have to sell these scripts. there's not a lot of explanation in them. they're in the like he's a a blah blah. it's literal leigh like it's a very, very bald plan for the episode. so what i find is amazing is that the subtext which is really, you see that scene, it's a very simple scene. don comes in, bette says this, and you watch how they perform this scene and how long it takes them to do it, that we just saw. and that they are bringing to it i told them they know that bette draper came in there, laid in wait and said i'm going to offer up to my husband whom i rejected. it's really like two lovers. whoever dumps the person is the person who has, who has the power normally. but i dump this man and i'm

going to offer him this opportunity for him to see that he could be back here. and what does he do. he says i've moved on. that drama, they just like, they lived in it and you know, i tried to give them as many ways to say it. and i didn't know it was going to be as painful as it was. i thought betty was going hide more. and i thought don was going to be more polite. i just watched them do what they did. i don't think-- i came in and said anything except for do it again or be sad or be happy. the laughter is usually what i say. >> just an actor doing his craft. >> yeah, i mean really. the interesting thing about that scene in particular, but really all the stuff with all of this, just eluded to it earlier there is a history between all of it, we run a show five years. five seasons now and over the course of six years. almost seven. >> there is a area-- there was a area between the pilot in episode two. and all of our characters, not only our characters bu all of us as people and friends and humans have this

shared history. this seven some odd years. and so when you -- >> people have gotten married and divorced and had babies and bought houses. and all this has happened. we come back and play these people again. and. >> and the characters have gotten married and divorced and had babies and bought houses. >> rose: batt the characters and the actors have. >> and so there is a lot of, there's a lot of subtext. there is a lot of history that comes with that. and what i think our show is, i don't want to say unique but i think a little bit different from most is that we're not on a treadmill. we're consistently moving forward. we're not rehashing. it's not who killed the guy this weak. and the same people are doing the same things over and over again. we're moving through time. very explicitly. >> as you move through time i'm wondering will we see black papal in episode 5, i was happy that lane praise had a black girlfriend charley. i was like whoa, that was very unexpected.

i thought great to see. >> black people existed. >> so i have heard. >> i was in turkey. i heard that there were still a lot. >> yes. >> and honestly, i, this is always considered conversational but black people still do not really have a representation on madison avenue. >> uh-huh. >> and part of the story. >> it is true. >> it is true. i mean but you know the truth is very an ununcomfortable thing to do. who knows how that will end up on a blog. but i do feel like i'm proud of the fact tat i am not telling a wishful film and story of the real interaction of whites america and black america. americans especially in new york city which was integrated in many ways but not completely integrated, we want food take a photo. we are doing a lobby much a department for. a very public place. i cannot find a photo of a department store with black people in it who are not

working there, that is basically above 50th street. >> wow. >> so you start saying like what are we talking about here. how is this coming into their lives. they're in the service industry. they're in ents tainment. they are always talked about in ents tainment. and this is how people are experiencing civil rights is on television. and one of the things hopefully is that when we get to the part of the 60s where you start to, you won't have trivialized the contribution of someone lake martin luther kingment you be with have pretended that i don't understand what that impact is to have a world leader, an international figure who is an african-american who is telling the truth and poetic. don hears the speech, i have a dream, and he turns off the radio. it is just a news event and they don't even know, you know, if i was telling a story of the black experience, it wab very different. but mi very proud of the fact that i'm not doing this

guilty thing of like you know you see them moving about california n 1970 and you see black and wait kids going to school together. guess what, there is no integration in the california public schools. in a lot of places until 1972. and no one really, it is a shameful part of our past. guess what, it's real. >> don's-- i read and was asked a lot about why did he turn off the speech. he disagrees with it or whatever. i certainly didn't try to play it that way. it was because he was thinking something else. >> yeah. >> his mind was not in a place where he wanted to listen some day talk on the r maybe he wanted to hear music. i can't deal with it. whatever it is. >> suzanne knows what it is. she's young and idealistic. >> what are you-- 68. >> '68. that movie deals with black executive and is treated as a hilarious joke. >> right. >> because that what never happen. >> right. >> it's like-- you know i tried to explain, peg-year's

boyfriend lizzie, her boyfriend said to her last year, she says you know, all these things that black people can't do i mean i'm all for it but women can't do either. and he goes that's right, peggie, we'll have a march for women. we'll go. that is not just like us laughing about it now. that is a very common story and the women's rights movement and the idea that betty or joan is going to read that and become a feminist and activist, it is the last thing to develop. it's really far away. >> i don't see betty draper becoming a feminist at all. >> no, but she is growing up. >> what do you any. >> you know, i'm so torn because i want them to get back together but on the other hand i just want them to go on and be happy and right now, dharlie, you know i love love and right now i don't think either one of them are. i don't think either one of them are but i'm not convinced back together is the right way to go either. that's the boughtee.

today lane price jarrett was at cbs this morning. and he said what you do with your characters is you never know where they are going to go. you never know where you are going to take them. so it's just take this word feminism which was out of style when we started doing the show. it was like post feminism, like you know t was like who won the war. you know. on the other hand, gettee draper may not ever say she's a feminist but she is a different more powerful, less childlike less controlled person than when we started. so the thing is it's not, i'm not telling -- >> and-- more unlikeable. >> the stronger she becomes. i always think, i have my own theories about that. i don't think she is shall did dish don't think she -- >> i tell you she is based on my mother. i don't think she is a bad mother at all. >> you don't think she is unlikeable. >> i don't think she's unlikeable. i think they were mad, the audience had a response to betty when don was cheating on her. they were lake oh god, she's such an idiot. i am like i think it has to do with another thing that

we talk a lot about in the show which is january's beauty. >> yes. >> january wrb they got mad when she had an affair herself. you find that hypocrisy with her is very frustrating for me. >> yeah. >> just to try to explain it to people. >> the two things i read, one is that you said with respect to historic event whether king's speech or whatever, you said what you try to do in the series is bring him to a human scale. >> yeah. >> so that they are part of-- the human. >> the whole thing about turning off the radio. we're not all sitting around talking about something. unless it is a cataclysmic violence, culture, let's -- >> cuban missile crisis. >> even the cuban missile crace is was fun to go back and look at it and say like this went on, the other thing, you're trying to do history. everybody has written these books about what is going on in the white housement i was like what do the people know. almost nothing. and it went on for like seven days. and when you talked to people who were there in their childhood or whatever,

they're like i'll be honest with you, we were really scared and people behaved, you know, nobody quit smoking that week. that is all you can fell. nobody was like began their exercise regime. i mean i think joan, for example, there is a historical thing about you know her ambition and her end game of getting a husband and marrying a doctor and all these things that go with who she is and at the same time she herself is confused by the fact that she is great at her job and so important there. >> so what is jones' relationship to peggy? >> well, i think what she wanted to be from the very beginning was a mentor to her. that's what she wanted the relationship to be. and peggy kept resisting. and so it became conflict between the two of them. really joan was just sort of trying to give advice, trying to help and peggy said well that's not the way

i want to do things. and those aren't the things i want so there is a lot of misunderstanding between the two of them that has continued through, you know, four seasons that everybody is seeing. >> are you directing the second episode. >> mi. i was actuallyhe fst one we shot when we came back. we shot a little bit out of order. but it will be the second one that airs. >> and the hardest character to direct will be yourself. >> i certainly found that. it's the only, it's the only person you have no detached perspective on, really. it was actually really interesting to see everybody else from a completely objective perspective because normally i'm either in a scene with them or i'm at home. and so to be there and watch my cast mates from a completely objective point of vah was eye-opening. it was thought provoking. it was incredibly energizing t was really fun. >> this is not the first time this happened. you have had others.

>> jon slattery has done twice, and de another one this season. we had our-- we've had a lot of first time directors on the show. and i find that we get a lot of energy from it. and a lot, they are usually the most prepared and the most truthful to the script. and they, it means a lot. lots on the line so that extra always seems to produce. >> i will tell you i rarely have trouble sleeping. i am a good sleeper. i can put things away and put them in a box and go to sleep. and the one time i remember staring at the ceiling to about 3 or 4 in the morning was the day before we were supposed to start shooting. >> we pushed it a day. >> and i -- >> i remember waking up getting ready to work and they're like dote bother. we're coming in the next day. >> there is a thing, so much preparation for directing. and then it just makes you more and more anxious.

literally just building up your anxiety. and once lake an acker once you get on the set and it's actual leigh happening it's more relaxing. i'm sure it is the same with your job. more relaxing to do it. >> i would agree but i bond certificate it hard to direct your cast mates, hard cast mates to take direction from, the fellow, which would think that wab hard. >> i didn't find either one of those difficult. when jon did it i found it perfectly, it made sense. i mean it's-- in my opinion the best qualities of a director are kmaun case and trust. and i trust mr. slattery, obviously. i have known him for a long time. i think he's got our collective best interest in mand and he's a good communicator. >> and they trust you. >> i feel like i have the same qualitiesment and both of us know the show very well. we've been around for a long time. >> a lot of what their job is, and it's television directing is unique this this way because there is such a time crunch and we shoot these episodes that lack like that and have that depth of performance in

those sets in eight days. so it is very, you know, john will-- 14 hour days, seven or eight pages a day, move-years don't work this way at all. and so you're stepping into a system of people who have all done this before and they are all there to support you. now when are you an actor on the cast, that can be turned against you, there's none of those feelings, everybody gets along with the crew. and the other thing is that so their job really in addition to bringing ideas, and camera, you know, and working with the cinematographer, they are stepping into a system that has been working really well/to gauge performances and help get performances. and if you have whatever the secret language that actors speak to each other, both john and john slattery have managed to put people at easement there's very little resentment. if there is no-- and authority, there is not, an actor on the show, i mean i think you could be the catering person and sort of like lean over to them and say i didn't think that was very good and they wouldn't

want to go back and do it again. >> i don't think it is a matter. >> do you have experience. >> i did. i was concerned that it would be completely sap me of all energy and it was the first, our first day back. first week back. so i was very concerned. the show takes alot out of me as the week goes on and i thought okay, i'm going to be starting at a deficit but what ended up happening was actually the inverse. and i was completely invigorated and energized. a part of it was just seeing this entire thing that i thought i knew so well over the last four seasons it in six years. seaing it from a completely different perspective. and gaining this new respect for complete departments of our show that hi no-- i knew they existed but hi met lake one of them kindofn passing at a rap party. the construction department and the rigging and all this other stuff, for an actor it seems like it just happens but when you actually see what goes into it, you are really blown away. >> his visions are made at every level.

>> creative decision. >> to get to be a part of those was thrilling. and as i said, invigorating. it was really, you know, you are picking props and going that one, i don't but i can't wait to see what she's going to do with it. >> by the way the person putting the props up for you has figured it out in their own creative way. i always say especially jayneie our costume person was very strong. everyone on our show who is creative in every department is not a joke and they are proud of it and their work is represented. and i always try to be like the best audience for them. i don't do their job. i don't know how to. i say like you brought me four fur coats to look at. january is in all four of these coats. she look as mazing in all of them. how do you know i'm not going to pick the one you hate. i never bring you anything that you don't want on the show. >> so the trick is for me to realize as i'm looking at the four of them that none of them are like what i asked for. >> they buy into the

mission. >> they are every, and you're saying what they contributed to the characters. it is hard to explain, even though the director is their audience and i'm off then the editing room picking their performances, these people have such control over what is being presented, you know. and what i always love about where people go on this show is the level of vuerable. i never feel like, vincent has had to do some things that are very private and child esch and almost embarrassing that, emotions we really have, like and i always feel like he's fearless. will never, you know, it's one thing, you slap a -- >> people don't realize they're childish. >> what is the essence. >> oh, the big question. he wants to be respected. he wants to respect himself. >> he wants to be valuable. >> yeah. >> you know witnesses has

evolved to a place where he has don's respect. >> i think he feels that way now. at the end of season fouri think the fact that don covers for him and puts the 50,000 in and does it in a very smooth way as don draper would, without saying anything. but i think that little cheer, i give you as i leave the conference room is like okay, we're together now. you respect me, i respect you. but i feel like he still feels, andlways has, and maybe always will, that there's still the old pete in there somewhere kind of, still trying to prove and still worried that maybe he's not quite secure yet. >> does pete understand don? >> i think men -- >> can he see through them. >> i think the men in the show lots of time think they do understand don. i think they look at don and think that guy has everything. >> just that. >> they don't say he has everything but i know that

somewhere inside there is a kind of man who doesn't know who he is. >> well, i think -- >> i think all the characters have moments of, intense observation. it's something that matthew weiner has. can really see people for who they are. who their character really is. and. >> maybe i'm wrong but that's how i feel about it. and i feel like every character has moments where they see other characters trauly. there were scenes after he wrote the letter to the tobaccoompa where i say it was childish. there are moments where they say the truth but i think if he was to sit and kind of mull about what don draper is he would have a much more fantastic idea of that person's life. >> in the instances where he comes over and confront os don about like the north american aviation thing. he knows don past-- he knows

about don's past and he walks and opens the door, coming to have this conversation. and he sees faye who is a consultant walking out of the bed really and he has this ok. i think he says something like i come here and there is another thing don't want to know about. >> another thing i don't want to know about. >> it's just a-- he is becoming an adult. of course don draper, what do i expect is going on in here, you know. >> but to me the beauty is just when you think somebody's a jerk or just really dispicible person, you will see. >> redeeming characters. >> you will see a frailty, a sense of humanity, i sense of kindness when it is least expected. that is the thing that kaeps me so engaged. >> that is the thing that makes interesting characters. >> it's absolutely true. >> at the end of season four when joan is calling her husband after all the stuff about the abortion, the affair with roger and how sorry she was about it and how she really regretted it and through him out of her

life afterwards, there is this amazing thing, when she is on the phone with her husband where you see her giving her, him the fatherhood. where you see her, it's not delusional. she wants to have her husband. she loves him. and it's always like a twist in the show somehow when people express their feelings to each other. that's the thing that is so weird to me. and that i love about the privacy that i keep talking about, is that when people actually do get to express their emotions to each other, we all work together and you pretend like you don't pretend like it, you do get to know each other better but we all have our own life. >> is it hard for to you express your emotions, you, matthew weiner s it hard for you. >> certain emotions, yeah. >> i think, yeah, i do. i have children and that helps a lot. i have no trouble expressing to them. a i'm much more comfortable being you know angry and critical and wrong. the most hard thing for me is sort of trying to relax

and enjoy this and now that i feel some sense of, especially because the season is done this season i feel somewhat secure about. my emotions i make an effort to express them. and i become emotional about it and embarrassed. >> there is also this question. how has the success changed your lives. you've gotten a he amount of attention. i've seen new a lot of movies. >> it's essentially raised everybody's public profile significantly. >> they wanted to cast jonham. >> for the first couple seasons every script i got had me wearing a hat or smoking or being in the '50s or '60s somehow and i made a very active decision not to take any of those parts. so i did the town or bridesmaids or something that was completely opposite, opposite. >> the cop in the town. >> i think that's

contemporary cop at leastment and it was important to sort of also suggest that you know, this is my day job and i get plenty of opportunities to do that. but now that there are more opportunities i would rather do something a little different. >> and january. >> yeah, i think that all of us have had more opportunities. and so you know o nice for something successful so that you can have a little bit of freedom, more freedom, more opportunity. and then there's also the negative side i guess where you are sort of, everyone wants to know you what are doing or how you are different than your character. and people just get really, really attached. >> i have resisted that question. >> yeah. >> because everybody wants to know that. >> i know. >> but there needs to be a sort of -- >> so therefore. >> therefore you try, i struggle. >> that's the thing. other than sharing a dress size and like a hairdo and everything, there's not their character. >> what do you think the

biggest misconception about the character don draper is. i think a lot of people think don is, that there is a fundamental virtue about don and i don't know if there is. i think that there's something don can be very petty. don can be very mean. and don can be very unforgiving of other people's flaws while not recognizing them himself or at least not acknowledging them. i think that that is-- i think that there is this thing about the protagonist of the show that people want to find something good in you. and. >> i don't knoif there is something good about him. >> i disagree. >> you think what. >> i think there is something good. >> what do you think it is. >> i will say, charlie, it's

hard to find. >> talk about a character created a very positive -- >> every now and again will you see something where he does something that's very tender. where he helps somebody. and he shows a wakness. not in front of many people but he does show it. >> only when pushed. >> and i think you there are things i consider virtuous. when someone has a problem it should make them more lovable, not unlovable. and he is not as strong and powerful. and i remember that he would say well so-and-so told me something. would you have a line lake that and the audience is like don said,on is lying. just like we all do. don repeats things that he has heard like we all do. that sounds like the other pitch. don is saying both of them. he has the wheelhouse but i feel like he's trying to be a better person and i think

he is, i think he was very good to anna. i think he's afraid of emotion like a lot of men at that time. i think he's a very good father. >> it shows a vulnerable or what. >> i think it's hard for him to feel things because he is from poverty and was raised by wolves. >> yeah. >> he's an orphan and i think that he has a little bit of a detachment disorder if i was going to be a shrink about it i attachment disorder. >> he was very good to anna. >> and i feel like he's always trying to be good. i think he is good, generous, i don't think he knows, i think it is that man of that generation. those emotions are like guess what, he's not being a shaining and sharing things. i think he's very obsessed with fairness. and part of the reason he didn't like pete to begin with is because pete has got some of for nothing. now that pete's earned it he sees an adult there. >> and that's my take on it. and i think he's in the process of evolving into,

piece by piece into a more enlightened person. but like most of us he always fails the night before the weigh in. >> what role do kids play in this series? >> they're a big part of don's life. and you know it's funny. don is a good father i often catch myself saying that i think he means to be a good father and tries to be a better father and at the same time he slept through picking up his children one weekend. >> i think a good dad goes out and gets a birthday cake. >> how conot be a good father. >> i think you know i think that matt made a quotence and i think it's accurate

that this, the lens, the general perspective of the story is being told through, maybe it wasn't you but somebody wrote it through the children's eyes and we're seeing this stuff changing through sallie's eyes and it's mostly sallie, let's be honest. and sallie is the one character who has done the most i think growing throughout the course of the show. she started it 5, 6, however-- six areas old when she staed. she's 12 now. half her life she's been on this show. and that's a lot happens between ages 6 and 12 i'mly for girls. and so you know this person is rapidly changing and having to deal with the disillusion of her parent's marriage and the stuff happening around her and her own awakening into adolescent. and all of that stuff. and it's fascinate wag watch and we have an incredibly talented actress who is

really able to do a lot with wht matt has entrusted her with. it's been fascinating to watch. i think that again, part of why there will always be some version of don and betty in this story is because of sallie, bobby and jean and those kids will, you know, unless something tragic happens will always be the same. even if something trag im-- tragic happens will always be the same. >> roll tape. >> well, hello there. >> stephan knee, this is sallie and bobby. >> hello. >> hi. >> very nice to meet you how do you like california. they love it. >> the not aree is supposed to be here at 10 but she's late. >> my mom put the papers in order so all you have to do is sign. and then you can go to marine land. >> without painted on the wall. >> my friend anna.

she used to live here. stephanie is her niece. >> well, that's me. that's my nick name sometimes. go back around get us some lemons. >> that's what i say to my kidoes. >> go get me some lemons. how, in the end a series that is covering a lot of a decade,. >> i want us to, i love the idea that we are all aging during this. and that the characters are aging. and i didn't i said it on one day, it is like the calendar's changing. my agenda has always been to

demystify the passage of time. i'm fascinated by it and i don't understand how it works. and you are one place and then you're the other place. and what i, by tying it to the calendar the idea will you lack back at the show and see that this passage of time and people always talk about you know with an innocent time, the against el time, the first episode of the show, the entire message is this was not an nnlt time and yet here we are at the end of season four and you're looking at it and you can already see that it is somehow more innocent than where it was. and it's just this process of learning andhanging and their lives are going to more exciting it than most people's lives are in ten years. but that chronicle of human experience is, i didn't know i was going to get to do so much of it. but it's the biggest gift as a writer that you could possibly have. just to like have this orchestra and get to write the music, you know. >> is it about the american

dream too? >> yeah, absolutely. >> and the he i lose of it. >> i always felt that way. you know, i started off trying to sort of say lack at how things went bad. and then i sort of started feeling like this is such an amazing place. there's such, you know, there are don draper. some of them vim pacted our lifes in such a way. >> the change ability. >> thchan ability, yeah, you have social mobility. financial mobility, it's not a myth. and i love that about it. at the same time, there is an expectation that sometimes it will happen. an expectation of the quality and an expectation of -- >> be careful what you wish for. >> yeah. >> you think you have this thing that you know for certain that you want. are you absolutely clarity, you have this thing. and then you get there and you go hamm, what's over there. >> or even more like, is this all the i to . >> the very beginning of the show, you know, the first

thing i said, the first season we kept talking about it was this was my issue at 35 areas old, with all that i had, was is this it? i am still mortal is so that means that this is, i'm on the journey no matter what. and is this it? and what is wrong with me. that i am insatiable. >> insash ability is nothing wrong with you. >> yeah. >> i try not to judge in the show. we all get, they're talking abt juging tir characters. it is very hard to be a person. and we are all trying and we all fail in so many ways. and we get such pleasure out of this, especially with our entertainment. i don't like that guy. what is she thinking. who the hell is she and sort of like who wants to look in the mirror and say is that me? our audience does. >> let me just make this point because we are seeing on this thursday evening mad men sunday premiers, a special two-hour version.

>> yes. >> rose: congratulations captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org