>> rose: we begin with a new broadway play. it is called "lucky guy." it was written by nora ephron. it was about the late new york tabloid journalist mike mcalary, with two of the stars tom hanks and cotney b. vance, director george c wolf, and nora ephron's son jacob bernstein. >> he had a fantasy about what he did. it is a fantasy, but it did overtake the pessism at the end of the day that he was a knight and he writed wrongs. at the end of the day, the journalists, the tabloid journalists, that's what they did. they saw injustice and they fought for the good guy.

they saw corruption and fought against the bad guy. i think that's what he set out to do fromhe mont that he decided to sit down at a type writer and tell somebody else's story. >> rose: we conclude this evening with my conversation with bono in which we talk about his band u2, and his music and songwriting. >> music played a role for me, it's probably the looking out my window, and listening to music, having, you know, bob dylan or john lennon or bob marley later, you know, whispering words of descent and encouragement into my ear. what i got from their music was a simple idea. but the world outside the window was not fixed. and that it-- it was more malleable than everyone else is telling you. we're telling you that the world

can be changed. >> rose: "lucky guy" on broadway, and bono on music when we continue. captioning sponsored by rose communications

from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: nora ephron's final work is "lucky guy," starng tom hanks as the new york tabloid columnist mike mcalary. he is best known for his espoas a of the police torture of luoima. he won a pulitzer prize just before his death of cancer at age 41. he was the epitome of a big-city scrappy reporter and signified a big moment in new york journalism. "lucky guy" has been nominated for six tony awards, including best play. joining me are tom hanks, courtney b.ance, george c. woe, and jacob bernstein. i am pleased to have them here at this table.

i have a question, does that come from nora's conversation with her mother on her death bed? >> yeah, indeed. her mother always said, you know, use it-- when her mother was on her death bed, she said to her, "take notes, "and my mother did and my mother wrote a piece called mink coat" which i believe was in "esquire wal"about moning, and about how her mother had become not exactly a role model for her. but know. >> rose: but said "take notes. upon. >> take notes. she did. >> rose: so how does this start? i mean, noramented to do something about mike, who she didn't really know. >> she read his oof obituary. >> she read the obituary. >> and said this is a story i need to tell. >> rose: but was going to be it as an hbo thing. >> she was going to do it as an

hbo piece. and she did not waste time it. the only reason it took as long as it did to gestate, it was very hard to figure out how to make it work as a movie because the characters broke through the fourth wall, and now, obviously, we're seeingle more of >> gthat--re talk. >> now that's become slightly trendy with shows like "house of cards" but then it wasn't and it was tough to figure out how it was going to work. and when colin calendar was guiding-- left, and he knew mike mcalary. their houses had been near each other, and he said what if this wasn't a movie but a play? and within weeks she had-- she had written another draft. >> rose: did somebody have to convince her of that or she simply went back to her computer and said, "let's see if i can make it into a play?" >> she had about 24 hours of "i

don't know what you're talking about" and then she had written it in two weeks. >> rose: before we talk about mike and "lucky guy," did you know mike yourself? >> i did not. >> rose: did you. >> no. >> rose: you did know mike? >> didn't know him and didn't read him when i lived in the city. >> rose: really? >> no, at the time i think i refused to read either one of the tabloids because it was during their heyday and between the outrage machine and the fact that my name might appear in bold lettering at some point, which would really ruin my day. >> rose: nora wrote for one of them, too. >> she wrote fo the "post "when it was the grand daddy of literature. they always said "i wrote for the 'post' but not like the 'post'. of. >> it was trashy and fun then, too. when she wrote the piece on dory

schiff, she said the post is a terrible newspaper and it's because of dorothy schiffand sort of burned burned the bridge there. >> she told me at one point he was e yog girl at e "post" and kept sending her out to cover the beatles when they arrived at the airport until she finally said, i do have to go out and cover the beatles when they arrive at the airport again?" i said, "stop! " i said is that you? >> rose: so your relationship with nora because-- obviously you made movie togetr-- but the thing you and rita did about nick and nora at the memorial service-- i asked was that on tape somewhere because it was so great. >> for some reason, we were invited to the table, the party upon making "sleepless in

celtics," and working with norayou're at the absolute top of the name game. but when you're invited to have dinner with nora with a group of other people, well, you're in a whole other plain of existence there that can be very rarefied air if you are not up to the task of both listening and paymenting -- >> note the references are about. >> oh, you've got to be smart. ( laughter ) and if you're not smart-- you have to be honest and say, "i don't know what that is." but if you say that you get much more credit than pretending you know what the hell they're talking about. >> we did the reading about a year and a half ago, and that was my first meeting her. she sent everyone a biewl note, and that impressed me, a handwritten note. >> rose: but you kept it? >> oh, you know-- it's framed. >> rose: did you know nora? there's a great story i think-- and help me if i wrg on this-- where the idea of working with you, she baim came back to see nick, and she said, "this

guy is amazing." was that you, george? >> of course it was me. ( laughter ) >> rose: identified you as part of the story-- i think this was when they were turning it from something into the the play. >> she'd been working on the play for a while and she and i started working together september of 2011, would that be correct? and she would come to my house and we'd go through-- and i'd give her ts and tons and tons of notes, and literally, just like with the draft, she'd be back the next week way new draft. and it was the veracity and the braibz. i got the draft and i loved it. the energy was so raw and so real. i bumped he the night i said i was going to work on it at a movie and she said to me, "let's take a picture together. this will be the first of many pictures we're going to take together." and that was just at the beginning of our process of working together.

>> i think she always saw the sign post of human behavior that marked out the era in which we lived. the two movies that we did "sleepless in seattle" which was all about that odd catch of hearing somebody on talk radio-- was one example of it but when she sent me, "you've got mail," about the anonymous romance that can start up when you just have an e-mail sent to you by someone you don't know and fall in love with the person by wayof the specialist of that e-mail, i said to her, "well, this is kind of like fantastic, but-- because it's so current. it's about today." she said, "yes, it is about today, but if we don't make it within the next five minutes, something will come up that will replace e-mail." so the thing that always got me about her is that she would-- she would ask the question around the dinner table that would be about-- she would ask a

question that is about the behavior, about how we as society are interacting in a way th had never been dobefo. and i think in in some ways the mark larrlack larry of it was f4 hours whoever cracked the story owned the story. >> there was a great reference in the place where mark larry, tom is arguing with his arguing with his editor, and he said, "no, i'm writing it for tomorrow." it was the most astonishing line. >> rose: one last thing about nora before we come back to her, was it hard to write that piece? >> yescertainl i mean, there were certainly moments where i thought why am i doing this? but i did it over the course of a few weeks, and i would kind of spend an hour and a half every day kind of chugging along on it. and then at a certain point, it was there. i didn't do it in-- you know,

sometimes you really sit down and you're able to write something in o two, you know, goes. i couldn't have done that with this. >> rose: they're your parents -- if you can't write there's a problem. >> what a burden. >> rose: now mike mcalary, what was important for you, tom, to capture about this guy? >> i did not have it until i heard this story which was recently. i understood-- okay, he's a competitive guy. i understand the desperation to be a reporter, which is why he came t city. and as you said in this very share, everything else is second place. i got that. but there wasomespe of the me that i am special and i want everybody to know it part of mike that i didn't understand until i heard this story that jim dwyer told in which he was in elaine's with governor jerry brown in there as well. he had just broken up with linda

ronstadt, and someone told this to mike mac mcalary, and went te jukebox and play linda ronstadt's "you're no good" and now i understand doing that much more thanee. >> rose: you had your guy. >> i said i'm going to sit back and watch that dude as he hears "you're no good" 48 times. that's a brand of theater there. >> rose: so you had the guy. was it an issue for you, or, george, fur, because tom has this thing, mr. likable, too. was there a part of you that said we have to show at tiemsz mike was not that likable. even though he's been in so many different parts and played so many different roles and it came out of the roles where you were

looking at the character and not tom hanks. was that an issue at all? >> no, i think what is thrilling about that, tom, in addition to being incredibly brilliant and skilled actor, we would-- >> i just looked at a camera when he said that. >> there is a charm. there is an appeal, so i knew an audience was going to follow him, just like people followed mike mcalary. people adored him or hated him. but they would follow him. i don't think a character has to be likable. i think a character has to be real. so it's-- if you can find a character who is real then you can find yourself inside of it. ultimately, what what i think "lucky guy" is go bis the guy who goes from a journey of trading his ambition in for grace after-- he becomes a better pern. >>ose:he ratiohip twee the two.

>> the whole idea of the editor and the writer and how it shifts. we-- our two characters were very, very close. but as he -- >> and need each other. >> and need each other. he ended up sleeping on my couch for, you know, days at a time. but the fact that they needed each other so much. as he rose, as his star rose, our relationship started to shift. and what that did to the relationship, we both knewho-- that w held each other, but, you know, he became a superstar. >> the raw materials that mcalary provided was great stuff but it had to go through the sieve in the process, somebody like hap hairston, in order to make it the-- palatable or in some ways cohesive as a matter of fact, coherent. >> he was not jimmy breslin. it did not flow out of him

naturally. i think one of the things in terms of the larger of my motherit sort of flowed out of her naturally. she could write very fast and the it did not have to be edited. it was an amazing thing that she would sit down at the computer at 10:00 in the morning and be done at 11:00. >> wow. >> rose: even george would say wow. >> mcalary waike that but he was dogged. will be and that served him well. >> rose: the idea of breslin, because some people have questioned whether mike wanted to be breslin. that's a theme that runs thughout this, right i tnke want t have the place that breslin had in the cultural eye he wanted people to say, "did you read mcalary today?" and they didn't always have reason to say that but they always did about breslin, and i think also the two hamills, dennis and pete. they were guys-- mcalary i think

was spotty in that regard-- he would have loved to have seen erybody getting on the subway and reading the paper. >> rose: the time. help me understand the time that this all took place pu think of-- the idea of tabloid being at its zenith, and everybody wanted to see, and there was a lot of about murder. there was a lot about police. there was a lot about sensationalizing everything. >> it was a time when the city was in decay but as hap hairston's character says, crime was on the rise, the crack epidemicit was a great time to be in the tabloidas. there is the headless body in the topless bar. the city is very ferocious, and, therefore, it's a perfect

landscape for people with ambition. >> it was owned by russian oligarchs who didn't live here. they were people creating here, and committing crime here, all this stuff. they had material. you could afford to be a reporter and live here. >> rose: what do you like best about it? >> about the play? >> rose: the play your mother wrote about. >> i think she got something about boys in this play. she made these movies that were about men and women but they were about men and women together. this play is about men. she was attracted to this world. she was attracted to men, too. she said she would never marry somebody who juan a writer. >> she once said to mewhat better than hanging out with the boys in the bar? there's nothing better. there's nothing more fun. i'm sure she was there having

fun but it was the language. the way the language crackles in this play is dazzling, it's just dazzling. >> it's about guys. it's about people with information sitting around the table, "i have got to tell i you..." >> rose: it still happens but not in newspapers, in which friends that i know call up-- haven't read the paper and said, "can you believe this?" let's take a look at some clips and then we'll talk more. the first is a conversation between tom and the editor, john cotter. here it is. >> everything in between is how you tell the story. and who's contingent the story. and what do they think is important? and which order to put it in and where they're coming from? >> what about facts? we believe in facts. don't we belve in facts with

urnalists- who, what, when, where? we write the first draft of history in the voice of the people. if it wasn't for us we would be living in a didictatorship. >> you're make me sick. i might throw up. i want you to wrap your head around this fill sockal point. except for a few hard-core things, which for wont of a better word-- everything's a story. for example, what's your story, the story of mcalary? >> i am a newspaper reporter. and i love my job. and i'm doing god' god's work. i'm telling people what happened yesterday. i'm telling them the facts. i reward the good guys and putting the bad guys away and there is such a thing as facts

there. that's mystor you have a bad case of breslinitis, and you'll probably never get over it. >> rose: it seems slow? >> early on? >> one of the things between then and tonight-- >> it's almost a crime that our show goes on record and is reviewed as early in the process as it is. that even sounds like a lackadaisical conversation. and now we have-- we have now invested so much listening to the other people we are now able to jump on these ideas. >> rose: a direct saw that what happened, paz part of what you've done for the play? >> you want to catch the rhythm and, in of the play. i tell the actors as a joke all the time, there are two pauses in this play and none of them are yours.

because it's sharp people who are out there and they're in competition with each other and as diswraikob was saying, it's about boys. any time they're around the table they enjoy listening to each other-- >> i can top that. >> exactly. are you waiting for the person to finish up. >> he did not take credit for it but he did. >> i think it's the speed of compitition is what it was. it's like what to of you see there between jack and john cotter is a debate of what a journalist does. and it goes much, much faster because it has a spirit of.

>> you owe me an apology. >> because i didn't keep your secret? >> i toll you because i was upset about it. i hated it. >> then why did you go? >> they told me to go. what was i supposed to do? >> you can work anywhere. >> i like it here. i likeeinat the "daily news." you like telling people if it wasn't for you there would be no mike mcalary. there are days when you turn in your column i have no ( bleep ) idea what it is about. >> you tell people you write your columns? >> some days i do. i write my column and some day you fix my column and i'm so grateful to you, mr. hairt ston, but that is jur job, if it wasn't for you i will could-- >> and some other guy woulde editing it. >> are you speaking to willsy?

>> i didn't speak to willsy. >> you at any time have to go! they can't fire you, hap, don't make me spell it out. >> are you saying i have to go because i'm black. i never got a break because of that. you have no idea how hard i had to work. >> my heart i bleeding. ( laughter ) >> let's have them do the damn lines. let's see-- let's see it, come on! >> george if you had it to do--

well, you canstill play wh it. are you still playing with it? >> yeah. >> rose: are you still tirchgering with it? >> you build a form and the actors involved in the billed of the form and then at one point you have to release it because most thrilling moments for me working on a play is your work looks invisible. >> i think i saw the show the all the way through about a week ago. there are thing iing would go this is slow, this could be it but it felt so completely totally inhabited. hike they were driving the truck, and they were turning it and parking it and moving and moving it. it's 36th when it's not yours anymore. it's theirs. the ensemble of just astonishing that are so hart.

>> rose: most of the characters can talk to except for can the nak and the author. eddie hayes is alive and wel. so what do you want us to know about mcalary. this is a guy who was a star, who was in a terrible accident because he was drunk. i remember the night i found out that happened. >> and crawled back there the brifng of death. i would have to say this-- there's a line inhe play that niek malle airy views himself-- he had a sweet fantasy of what he did and it was a fantasy, that he was a knight and righted wrongs. at the end of the day, the journalists, the tabloid

counterrists, that's what they did. they saw corruption and fought against the batguys. i think that's what he set out to do from the moment he decided to sit down at a typ writer and tell somebody else's story. the four or five columns he wrote first was louima, and then it was the cops that tortured louima. it was-- as al has said, you have made your living fighting the the good fight for these people. when heas great and-- he wasn't always great. was she a great writer? sometimes. when she was in the wheel hots i

couldn't hutch him, if you sue this today it would. >> one of the things that is interesting when he started working on the play, he was taken to coney island hospital, and we were told a lot of times cops te them there becaus they want to completely, totally, bury the story. and a nurse there called it in and then someone then called him, and mcalary went out and interviewed them. >> rose: he was in bad shape himself by that time. >> the nurse did call in. if mcalary didn't do that story, that story could be completely swept. >> rose: he wanted to do it right then. >> absolutely, absolutely. exactly, exactly. >> there's one point in the play where he says you-- you feel for

him most of the time early on and in the louema, and he said to take your time, a simple way of him as a reporter. it's no longer about what's getting what's good and will increase his polarity. it's a stunning moment in writing. he is not a universally well liked man who said they didn't care for him at all. the daily news said i was one of his aclights. i wanted to be a reporter just like he was. >> rose: here's another scene that involved his wife. >> we first met in college. >> syracuse.

>> at a mixer the rest of the nightly laugh and talkedand agreed to a great dinner. there was a soft mornamed lisa. he was dancing with another girl. >> nice view. i follow. >> we've been together ever since. >> my wife can recite all the stops of the long island required in a conductor's voe. come on. come on! come on! do it? do it. the 7:01 now departing, baldwin, freeport, merrick, massa peek what, massapequa park.

( applause ) >> yes! >> wait a minute, babe, what about romakonka. >> beautiful! >> rose: i want to introduce you have a tape a couple of people you have seen here, this is him talking about that first meeting. >> i met him because another guy brought him out to look at this house sp he couldn't possibly afford the house and i told him that. >> he calls me up the next day, he's in a riot in prook lip. i said get out of there, michael, you're going to be hurt. i told him to can see me, and i say the, "do you want to still

observer the money. how are you going to pay me back? he said that's your problem. i said, what do you mean? from now on, i heard aboutou, you're going to figure out a way to pay back. i said with an attitude like that, we'll figure out something. >> it's not foor away from the dramatized version of what was linked together we want to close here as we talk about this, this is nora talk about her love for journalism. take a look at this. >> journalism was something that i was as deeply in love with as anything i had ever been in love with. it was s romantic. you know, i had grope up is not seeing the great movies because they weren't reshowing them on television when i was a kid.

but the aura of the front page, and superman on television lois lane and the daily planet. it looks like the great job. and it was. >> rose: you liked the stories you coff, you liked the idea of doing it, you les t peoe who did it. now i count think back-- as you get a little wiser. the pretensions of journalism, when i was young, and still, you know, the pretensions to truth. i really did think that when you wrote a story you were writing the truth. >> there you go. >> man. >> rose: thank you, thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: very good.

great to have you here, too. "lucky "is at the broad hurt theater for july 3 3. earlier this month i had a wide-ranking conversation with bono in new york city. here is part of the conversation with the youtube front man talkg abt song writing, his mantes and music. you have to have a bit of a measionic context to do what you want to do. you have to believe in yourself. you have to tell me what is possible. >> first of all, anyone who find their way to the front of a rock band, stand being in the intr of the stage--

>stage-- theatre the worst cien you're the front man. we have a shy guy to my right. one of the most extraordinary-- probably the most flcialg gitarred player for 25 series. he doesn't neem meade it. i think rbl in your sipt is essential. i come have a long line of traveling salespeople on my mother's side, and i think i'm a good sales man of ideas song, melodies, if i believe in them. the reason i'm on your program i

suppose today of get, out on the street, tbieght organized and fighting to eliminate extreme poverty is working i believe as people understand it and see the excesses of it, then there will be more >> rose: what makes a songwriter? >> strongwriter-- >> i cannot believe that you hear this melody line in your head is it epien words for tarrangement for it. and the thx thing you know is you're in a car. and that's really.

they tell you what to do. they tell you how to behalf. how to disbehave, norsmoos sort find you if you're in the right place, and there's the nuts and bolts of it, which rot nice. putting it together can sometimes daik a while. i'm in the middle of it now, when you them, it's incredible. when you're down in the mine hooking-- you couldn't tell the difference between the mole we work together. we can't even tell where one starts. sometimes i'll be on the chord or the pianos. sometimes it's larry.

sometimes it's adams. y if u2 think this is a strange thing and come back and prve this. >> it starts are with a melody, plut-- we mostly improvise baz a man and i tr to put into words what the mel tee is saying. oon gates okay pretentious. have to be true in yourself our just don't within when i-- that's what's occupying my mind. the songs are a preoccupation of your spirit. look, all of these problems that

we've i dread a footerrial phenomenon. a facton a polit different thing pain disease may be call by bacteria, a virus-- but treatable disease is a trivial situation. >> rose: back to will and commit. >> it's a very peculiar thing. >> rose: as you said, you drill down. you're going to bring it out. you're going to give forth to this.

you "10 reasons to do something" which y just throughut. for sure they don't need it unless is great. so we've-- these guys that i'm in a banded where, they're-- i promise you, there is no sense of oen titlement with them. they are very true to their audience. they really-- you know, they've never phoned it in. every night what to be the very best night of their life. you're playing tuesday night, in mirming ham albanna. >> you have to remind yourself where you are.

it can't even just new year's eve. pee. way to make it you've got to wait until god walks through the room. he's teaching you to wait. >> rose: but did you wait? did it come to me about this prodz. it's like plumbing. it is hard work and you have to tit down ande and. >> artists are lupping they're

somehow above the frey, you know. occupation the filthy. we are-- and i include myself" self assets turn another upon on on '. maybe the other work i do is some sort of attempt to balance that >> re: bance it with what? moving from the abtrack to the chron treat know are we are pep

upon firm. ould argue that you havetoday. taken your earned place. it's what it is. it's currency. give be better be useful. i try to do that, but also a get the-- i'm very grateful to our audience for giving us that

role. we lebt opinions feep just as something gety prell parole oriffis, where whether it's say the or the government or the sush. teamses reich teleb rert-- those ot i paparazzis of your fill. the point voos, quell weld which can be helpful about. eventually, everybody's stories is your valued. but our society didn't grefer

you enough. we don't valuepeep like 16 too much and i know that other than i'm noig. >> rose: there are those who argued also part of-- they had a place where people-- they riekd the foibles of seletrity. >> how come it stayed on so long? what's the commitment that somehow keeps it the way it is in >> you know, you're as good as the argument you get and i've got some of the greatest arguments on planet earth and this band, and they are people of great integrity

pep. they really support it and they're funny about this. they supported the global fund. they don't do public fl-- the re been able to say that is in public-private parties i ren chaigz who they paid to me thereep. most of what i am.are are.

i felt like maybe i just receive a punch in the decide. >> it's still true. >> rose: take away anything but don't take away my capacity to make sures with these guys. >> yes, and the person i loved fcialtion sharon, i think i awpped-- these are people i ed. i can't function without them. >> rose: are the songs different today simply because the times are different or are

they still, there is something interest in the chord. the a love kong techin teching e most lick spoim to write in motown, with dinaha roin prz wherwhere. he came if a rough, rough place. and he wrote "good times "q" it wasn't noose where came from. he wrote thet future high at the

presenat thepresent time. i think a love song did be benign but- ofy i you. the problem of the human spirits and the problems o e hum heart, and the i had pokeeracy of the human heart. here's what you're looking at because i have it, and then. >> rose: you have written a perfect song in your judgment? >> oh, no, god. >> rose: would you know? >> oh, i think so. i know ones that are perfect the supremes' "baby i love you q"

"satisfaction." those are perfect songs. >> rose: do you think t stones song "eight got no fax." >> yeah and the verve-- richard ashkroft. >> rose: and what's closest for you. >> gosh, that i heard recently. i pull the car in, i have to -- >> it reverb raits in your head? >> the one that really changed my life-- but it's 20 years old, it's not recent-- was i think mass of attack and an incredible album called "blue lines," that blew my mind. chris martin from cold play.

>> rose: what is it the irish have? >> it's what they haven't that makes me irish. ( laughter ) >> rose: that's right. >> that is the truth. you know. you have to be smart in ireland. ireland people have been through very difficult times recently in this recession. brutal debt crisis. a problem of the private sector that the public had to bail out, yet, we're good at matching t barricade. we'd be good at closing down the city. we'd be better than the greeks but we're not. but why? >> i think i understand it. i think it was smart. we know we want to create an

environment to attract-- ireland people means that you go out to discover. u know, you will always explore. >> rose: both of the things we've been talking about today, music on the one hand, and some commitment to make a better world, do they feed each other? if music played a role for me, it's probably as a kid looking out out my boxer window, and listening to music, having, you know, bob daniel or john lennon or bob marley later, whispering words of dissent and encouragement into my ear. what i got from their music was

a simple idea that the world outside window was not fixed. it was more malleable than everyone else is telling you. we're contingent you the world must be changed and you must change, too. i got this from these songs, and we've tried to demonstrate it. sometimes people say they play imagine. i don't play that song. that's the only song i don't like. i just don't like-- what i love eye love so many things about john lennon, he wrote the blueprint, but imagining, more an an actio more of a

buildings. doing is a thing we have to be a part of now, and narron said just describing the problem-- don't feel you have to go doing? with of about it. i always feel i want to get involved in the thing so. when he ward of live 8 all those years ago and saw the people in such far way. that turned my life upsid down. and follow reg. my curiosity to understand people. thank you. i really just want to be charlie rose. all those people you have, i want to be fathat.

pln noose all i se in yu is jur own curiosity to understand the world about the why we really have these people around. >> rose: bono at the spotted pig. thank you for watching. see you next time captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org