>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with japan, it's improving economy and its relationship with china. joining me richard mcgregor, curt campbell, ian bremmer and martin fackler. >> this isn't happening in japan because of economic crisis, it's happening because of a geo political tension that they feel. and if they get it, they're in very serious trouble. >> rose: they're acting because they feel the geo political tension. >> absolutely. because they feel an enormous threat and great anxiety from the rise of china in the regionness we continue this evening about johnny depp in an interview partially seen on cbs this morning, johnny depp's newest movie is called "the

lone ranger" we talk about that and his friendships. >> if there is a pattern, again it's an exploration of the outside or the outsider, or what's considered the outsider or the underdog. or the damage to, you know, those are the things that i find interesting about people. >> japan and johnny depp, when we continue. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following:

additional funding provided by these funders: and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. from our studios in new york city, this captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: for years japan has been beset by deflation, stagnation and sky-high public debt. one man has sought to change that, shino abe, he became prime in december 2012, since then he has unveiled an ambitious economic agenda. his policies which have been called abb, enomi cos have monetary easing, growth strategy. there are new concerns that

the structural reforms necessary for growth are not being made. at the same time tensions with china remain high. and the recovery from the fukushima nuclear disaster has not been completed. so we talk about japan this evening, joining me from washington richard mcgregor from "the financial times" and curt campbell, until february of this year he served as assistant secretary of state for east asian and public affairs in new york ian bremmer and martin fackler tokyo bury chief for "the new york times" and just arrived in new york from tokyo. i'm pleased to have all of them here. and i begin with you, martin. tell me where is japan today? you've been a close watcher of that country recently. >> japan is at a very interesting moment. i think for 20 years they lost their mo jo, struck in neutral. they have had an old system that was very successful after world war ii. they couldn't get rid of it. they couldn't find a new system. and i think the frustration with that is building up and

people want change. and they're looking for someone to bring them change. mr. abe has gone part of the way. he hasn't gone all of the way. but i think if someone can point the way for japan it really could turn around. i think this is a country ripe for something to happen. >> rose: curt, tell me about abe and who he is, and how you see him. characterize him as a political leader in that country. >> you know, he's a complicated leader. this is his second time in the saddle. he was prime minister in the first decade of this century. had a close working relationship with president bush. went down in flames. he comes from a kind of political aristocraciment his father, his grandfather served. he has a peculiar views about japanese history. but is quite determined to reverse what he believes is a death spiral for japan in terms of japan's role in the

world and its economic performancement he's a strong supporter of the united states and the japan security alliance. and he has taken some dramatic steps not only on the economic side but he's taken some steps in foreign policy, national security. some of which have been welcomed. and some of which have caused substantial concerns it in the neighborhood. >> generally though washington thinks he's on the right track? >> i think it would be fair to say that washington is very supportive of the economic steps. but believes that the first two things, the first two points you've talked about in terms of fiscal and monetary policy are important. but really the hard work in terms of structural reforms, encouraging innovation, not just these large business groups of the past, resurrected but beneath it, smaller scale business entrepreneurial endeavor. i think that's going to be

important. but concerns about history, concerns about needless tensions with south korea. we want a relationship of strength and stability between japan and south korea. but at the heart, we need a workable, serviceable relationship between japan and china. northeast asia is now th cockpit of the global economy. and if that relationship goes off the rails, it's very hard to imagine a future of peace and prosperity in asia going forward. >> what are the biggest challenges for him, richard? >> well, obviously the third era that curt was talking about, structural reform, you know, the monetary policy has gone off with a bang. fiscal policy in some respects is threatened by the possible increase in the consumption tax. but you know, structural reform in china and also in japan has always been a massive problem. the interlocked business groups, the entrenched business interests, the

everyone ehe agriculture as inte well which mr. abe is trying to take on, i guess, from the back door, from the outside by joining the transpacific partnership. i think that's where the really hard political work is to be done. and martin would know more about this at the moment but i think that's always been diffilt with the political system they've got at the moment which has become progressively more unstable, more fractious, in the past 15, 20 years since the ldp, i guess, fell apart and put itself back together again. >> go ahead, the politics of january an today. >> well, first of all, i would say right now while the politics of japan have been incredibly fractious and we have had 22 prime ministers over-- 18 prime ministers in 22 years, modern day asian record in japan. but right abe has smooth sailing. he's about to win his party sweeping elections in the upper house. and then he'll be clear through 2015, 2016. that's great for japan. the dpj, the opposition party in japan is toos

aboutee fighting amongst emlves with opposition parties to pose much of a challenge. i do believe that abe's commitments are not just to the three arrows of abe-nomics but also very much to restarting nuclear energy after the fukushima crisis which was difficult to do. as well as joining the transpacific partnership which he is using as external pressure and motivation to get the japanese economy moving. and all of this comes from something fundamental about abe. he understands that the rise of china is creating urgency in japanese reform. that if they don't get it right this time around t might be too late. and the first time when he was prime minister, some almost 10 years ago, he focused on the national security. he focused on creating a league of democracies. he was too early, unfocused and he had health issues. this time around the challenges are much greater. but he's channeling it in a healthier way. he is using the challenge and threat of china to really focus much more

effectively on the economy. i think that's why when you go to gentleman an today there's much less skepticism about abe than there is in the american markets, for example. >> rose: you call abe lz nomics one of the most audacious experiences experiments in economic policy. >> i think if you look, for example, at the first arrow, the monetary policy, you had a central bank that sat on its hands for years and years because if you go back to the late 80s and the bubble economy, the bank of japan was slow to move. and was blamed for allowing the bubble to get out of control. and ever since then the bank of japan has been so scared of causing inflation, that they refuse to move. you had a series of bank of japan governors who just basically sat on their hands while the nation fell into deflation. and now you have with the bank of japan this doubling of the money base, i think, in two years. i mean just drastic moves. and the country, turning on a dime at least in terms of

monetary policy. you don't see that very often. you don't see an economy the size of japan moving that quickly. >> rose: curt talk about foreign policy from their standpoint. and it seems to me defined primarily by the relationship with china and the island. and you have said, quote, there is a feeling of 1914 in the air where a mistake lead to a world war. >> the last three words are mine. >> uh-huh look, people normally think that the most difficult security issues in asia will the tensions across the taiwan strait and the still divided korean peninsula. but in fact those issues have been relatively effectively managed. and they are much cooler now than they have been in the past. the real issues that are causing enormous anxiety in asia are around these territorial maritime issues in the south china sea, between japan in, and south

korea, the rocks between the two countries, and what the japanese call the sincoc, u and the chinese call the diatides, uninhabited rocks in the east china sea. both countries have basically put a lot of chips on the table. and are taking steps based on the premise that the other side is going to back down. i think at a very general level, everyone in asia recognizes that these are not critical issues. that there's much more important fish to fry, if you will, economically and strategy geo-- strategically. but both sides have bureaued in on these extraordinarily difficult territorial issues that in a way are stalking-horses for nationalist concerns. and they are so ripe for misunderstanding. and they are so sort of white-knuckled at the level of engagement that neither side can back down. and so we've got to find a creative way to change the

subject and export these problems into the future. if we don't do this, i think we could have a crisis here that would upend everything, all of the best laid plans of shindz shinzo abe, but not just that. the remarkable plans also that are being enadviceaged in china as well. >> rose: when you say we, you mean the world community as large or do you mean the united states specifically. >> i think the world community at large, but the united states has a very large stake here. and we have to play it very careful defendant hand, largely behind the scenes. this is one of those issues, however, where our influences, in fact s quite limited and indirect. and it's one of the few areas over my last four or five years in government that i found that some of our interlock eters only lessened part of the way to what we were saying. >> rose: what would be the

false step that would send it into disaster. >> let me give you a example. every day now we have fishermen or vessels that basically faint and cut into this area, this territorial water area that japan has defined around these islands. they have what they would consider to be effective administrative control. we acknowledge that. i can imagine a situation where an exhausted captain of a vessel just after a period of time of feeling just enormous indignity oranger decides to just charge ahead. and then that could lead to a bumping and a reaction. it's the kind of thing that took place as you recall in 2001, the ep3 crisis where a chinese pilot just said look, i don't like these rules of engagement. i'm going to fly closer to this plane that is infringeing on our sovereignty. and so i will tell you, you cannot underestimate how

powerfully held the views about these issues, these territorial issues are in both japan and china. and you can easily see a set of circumstances that would spin out of control. a japan, a military that is not fired a shot in anger in 70 years. and china, a military with very delicate relations with the party establishment. this is not a situation that could end-- it could end very poorly. >> i tend to agree. i think that we don't need that kind of a crisis for this relationship to continue to deteriorate which is part of the problem. the chinese government has been very happy to whip up anti-japanese sentiment on a frequent basis. the japanese mainstream press has turned too much more willingness to publish and promote, remark upon antichinese sentiment. there is no trust between

these two countries at all. you hear about american companies having trouble with investment in china but japanese ceos, i met with 20 of them, virtually every single one are already planning to hedge and limit their exposure to china. this should be the biggest opportunity for them economically in the entear region. instead they are at thising what else can i do in india, indonesia. there is no trust. and unlike, between let's say israel and turkey, the obama administration actually help fad sill fated two pretty hardheaded administrations to say we're going apologize, we'll get normallized relations again. at least there the americans are allies with the israelis, with the turks. we can do that with abe. but when you ask curt well, who are you talking about. the u.s. or globally. he kind of responds globally. but i mean the u.s. that's the problem. curt's right. >> rose: talking about the world community blue specifically it's a big point tof us. >> this is the problem is that there suspect a world community to do it am and the united states isn't in the position to do it he was in this pochlingts he knows

how difficult it was. he was working these points. and it's not getting any easier. if there was an interlo quitter this issue is sufferly concerning and troubling, the biggest decision in asia, we would be working it, we are to the good on this issue. and there isn't a better one. >> but i think ian's point if i may say is the right one here that it doesn't doesn't need a crisis. what we're seeing is months and months of these deployments and engagements it is imprinting a new chinese leadership. and a japanese leadership with a very negative mind-set there was always distrust. but it's now much more in the open. it's much more publicly discussed. and it's very difficult to roll back from that. and so that's the biggest concern that over the long-term no matter what, the best outcome is a much higher level of anxiety. i will say, the trouble for japan is that this is not an isolated incident. they're not only are they experiencing very negative

trends with china, but the relationship with japan-- with korea has always plummeted because of concerns about historical statements and the like. and so japan is in a situation where for its economic performance, it needs the understanding and support of other countries in northeast asia. but their foreign policy is making it difficult for these countries to support this very important economic initiative that abe has set in place. >> i want to come to someone one small point you said in talking about china, about the relationship between the military and new administration. i mean what is your take on that? >> well, look, i think that we have overblown the idea that there is some sort of rupture between the chinese military and the party. i do think that president shi has more respect and as a result perhaps more authority over the military. but he is also at least from

earl he-- early indications probably a bit more nationalistic. i think the readout from the summit suggests that one of the few issues on which chinese temp-- tempers flared and they were taking a tough line was on this issue of maritime issues. he talked neglect lively, about japan. prompting the president to basically say hey, look, these are our allies. and we're to the going to sit here and let you talk about our allies in this manner. but unfortunately in most interactions with have with china they will talk with japan in a way that is frankly unrecognizable. the idea that, you know, you have this return of togo an world war ii and group brutality on the march. it's i believe appropriate. it's extraordinarily provocative and it's not helping in this delicate, very difficult period right now between japan and china.

>> rose: then why do they do it? >> well, i have to say i spent a lot of time with chinese diplomats. sometimes you find them saying things that they may not always believe but they have to say. they always seem to be able to get this stuff out about japan without very much difficulty. i think there is, it touches a cord in them that they feel deeply. and frankly, i actually think ian's right again here about the difficulty of3'.t united states role. but in fact it is only the united states that can help make the point that we need to see a relationship between japan and china that's workable. we've got to convey to both sides that they have to take the necessary steps. cooler heads must prevail. and recognize that there's a larger endeavor involved here. >> well, the level of mistrust for abe personally of china is really deep. i mean any time you talk with him privately the conversation eventually

moves there the presumption is that one way or another asia is their neighborhood. and japan, and they can work with a lot of the other countries but they can't work with japan. and i think that it's not what richard is talking about, it's not an intentional misstep but it is something that is very deep seeded that's actually coming through. and it's not a question of japan so much moving to the right. you find this across japanese society. you go out for a couple drinks with any businessman, someone that you consider to be an extraordinarily decent and upstanding fellow and of course they are all fellows. and you find that their views on china are of extraordinary anxiety, mistrust and to a certain extent dislike. it exists in china too but breaking through this is really hard. and breaking through this when they are shifting. we're talking about how this will be so hard, the world number one, number two economically. e a we're both big and we're

lot of land around us and we have separated by a huge ocean. in the case of japan-- japan and china, the things we are talking about, they're happening now. they're real. and they are bumping up against each other. and i think that abe, the fact that abe is moving as decisively, this extraordinary experiment is reason that the world's most extraordinary experiment economically is presently happening in abe's japan. and it's because they feel an immediatesy of a geo political tension. in europe there's a lot of things happening historically unprecedented because of economic crisis. this isn't happening in japan because of economic crisis. they got through fukushima. it's happening because of a geo political tension that they feel. and if they get it wrong, they're in very serious trouble. and we're their allies. >> rose: they are acting on the economic front because they feel geo political tension. >> absolutely. because they feel an enormous threat and great anxiety from the rise of china in the region. >> if i could say on that, just imagine, charlie t was only about 25 years ago that

a harvard professor published a book called japan is number one. it was not that long ago that japan was viewing the world in a very difficult-- very different way as they are soaring. and now, i mean 9 psychological anxiety that they face, not just pressures from china but korea, many korean manufacturing firms are much more successful than their japanese counterparts so that is exactly what is animating. one final point, to give you a sense of how china is trying to accentuate the relationship between japan and the united states. we've had some high level summitry recently between the united states and china. nese rend friends have actually taken a page from kissinger. when kissinger used to visit moscow during the vietnam war, he made sure that on those visits those were the days that u.s. air forces would really bomb north vietnam, to make the north

vietnamese sort of ont's going on here. during the most recent high level summits and engagements when secretary kerry was just leaving china during the summits, those were periods of heightened japanese-- chinese naval and maritime activity around those islands. so what has been alleged is accurate. they're trying to create tension between japan and the united states. and it's very important for us to under state very clearly in all of our interactions that this relationship was a democratic, peaceful japan, is strong, stable and enduring. but at the same time we also want a good relationship with china and these two big countries need to work it out. >> all right. that's a good note to close. but let me just say this. you're going back to tokyo when? >> in two weeks. >> when you go back in two weeks what is the question you most will be in pursuit of? >> i think as ian was saying it is a really interesting time to be in japan.

because it really does feel the pressure from china. and it really is showing a willingness to change. but part of the change is not just economic. it's also how does japan behave like, there is a pressing question of how to become a normal nation for japan. and how does it take care of itself. how does it defend itself, act like a normal nation that has normal diplomacy. and it hasn't done that for a long time it has been essentially dependent on the u.s. for half a century it has to sort of grow into a new role. and i think that's really interesting. it's political, economic, social, japan is finding itself pressed to really take things seriously for the first time and perhaps to change itself. >> rose: martin, thank you. >> thank you, richard. >> thank you, curt. >> thank you, ial. we'll be right back with johnny depp. stay with us. in 1933 america was introduced to the lone ranger t started as a radio series, the stories of a texas ranger, native american warrior fighting for justice in the west captured our imagination.

their adventures were later turned into a television show and several films. now johnny depp and army hammer put their stach on this iconic piece of person folklore. here is the trailer for the lone ranger. >> eight men road into canyons. i dug seven graves. the men you seek think are you dead. >> better to stay that way. >> you want me to wear a mask. >> justice, is what a man must take for himself. >> we got to go. you're dead. >> not yet.

its with a ranger, riding a whitehorse. got some line particular indian with him. they come for you. >> if these men represent us, i represent the law i would rather be an outlaw. >> they're coming for you. >> rose: i spoke with johnnie dep last week about his latest role, his career and his life. he just recently turned 50, excerpts of that interview aired on cbs this morning. here is my conversation with johnny depp in its entirety. >> i thank you for doing this.

it's good to see you. >> it's great to see you. >> rose: tell me about this movie and tonto and how you see him. >> the film, i mean, you know, when gore, actually when jerry bruckheimer and i first sat down i showed him some photographs that hi taken, just on my own, you know, with my makeup artist joel harlow and photographer friend. as a kind of a test of what i, you know, what i believe the character should be. and i showed them to jerry. and the film was dead in the water at that point. and suddenly things started to come alive. >> rose: dead from the water because there was skepticism about -- >> i think dead in the water because disney just didn't, i think at the time, prior to any of the budgetary dilem-- dilemmas we ened up having. disney at the time, you know, they had their fingers in other jars. >> rose: this was before or after pirates. >> this was after pirates. >> rose: wow. >> yeah, after pirates.

and i just had this-- you know, i just saw this guy as this kind of very, you know, interesting sort of warrior. and i saw a way to tip the cliche of the portrayal of native americans, you know, to tip that cliche on its head, just flip it around. and i strongly believed in it and you know, the great thing is that jerry bruckheimer, the folks as disney, gore van inski, when we all sat down, and the writer, we sat down in our think tank, you know, what's the story. first and foremost was these people must be respected, native americans, these human beings, they need to be respected. they need to be treated with dignity. and that was first and

foremost. and then the entertainment sort of-- part came later, you know. >> but you remember watching tonto as a child. >> oh yeah, was a big fan. was a big fan, watched the black and white series of moore and silverheels and loved it. but always, i mean even at the ripe old age of 5, 6 years old, i was always somewhat perturbed at the idea of tonto being a side kick. >> rose: and this is a time for you in this portrayal to rebalance that understanding of him, and the relationship with the lone ranger. >> indeed. so that therefore tonto is really the kind of in a way the gravity of the movie, the gravity of the film. he, in this film, there would be no lone ranger without tonto. so that's the kind of-- turn that he with took. >> rose: take a look at this. this is "rolling stone" magazine, but there you are.

>> there he is. >> rose: there he is. and take a look at this. you know this photograph. >> yeah, that was the inspiration. >> rose: that was the inspiration. >> that was, indeed,ed inspiration. i saw that. i kept thinking about the character and i ran across that image on-line. and thought-- immediately i was struck by the lines going down his face because it appeared to me that as if the man had been cut into quarters. and there were various sections of the man, the personality, the rage, the damaged child, this, or that. >> rose: you could see all of that in the face. >> that's what i felt, you know. and then i thought oh that's great, the birds on his head, oh, no, it's not on his head, it's flying behind him and i thought shoulding on his head, of course, as his spirit guide, you know, as his-- as tonto's side kick. >> rose: does he fit into other characters that you have portrayed? >> i think so, yeah.

i think there is a, you know, there's one sort of monofilament that, you know, that connects them all. it's that, still that same theme of, you know, what is considered normal, you know, what is considered outside, what is considered inside, was's considered strange, what's considered, you know-- . >> rose: you have famously said what some people see as normal you see as weird. >> most things that are considered normal and that are very well accepted in life, i'm fascinated by. because they just seem like odd things to me. >> rose: i remember when we first started talking about maybe 1998 or so, you said you would see your future as a character acker. and it's turned out quite different. i mean you do characters but you became this huge international star. >> it was a fluke misspelling somewhere along the way, that i wasn't involved in. >> rose: a deviation in the road. >> i don't know what

happened. well, the good news is, i mean, certainly you know, once pirates hit the streets, it-- life changed for a lot of people involved in that. >> rose: how did it change for you? >> well, i had already had a kind of, you know, hi been around for a while. so you know, i was somewhat used to the loss of anonymity and you know, the sort of, i suppose reclusiveness that december along with that. >> rose: living life as a fugitive. >> in a way, you note. an that's really when it became apparent that things were radically different. that was when it was like, every move, you know, every time you left your house, especially with the kids or whatever, everything had to be strategized. it was almost like a military strategy to get you from point a to point b, through the kitchen, down the stairs, you know. and then yeah, somewhere along the line you realize, wow, i'm-- i mean it's

really not-- . >> rose: would you at some point say no to all that? >>. >> i don't know, i don't know if you can say no now. i think no is probably not an option any more. i don't know, you know. >> rose: but i would think this is the best time of your life right now. first of all you've got your kids which is the thing that changed your life. >> yup. >> rose: and secondly, you can do what you want to do. >> to some degree. >> rose: pick and choose. >> yeah, to some degree. i think that even, you know, even now, you know, when presented with the images of tonto, disney were struck by them, but i think there was, i think that when we went into production and they saw what-- you know, what i actually look like really, fully, i think that they were a little bit worried again. >> rose: they had more doubts. >> and yeah, and that's sort of-- but that's the kind of stimulus. it's stimulating for me. i find you know, if somebody

is a little worried about what i am doing, then i think i might be doing it-- must be doing it right wz you're if they're not worried, you're worried. >> yeah, absolutely. if i don't sow some sort of panic or fear near me, then i get worried. >> rose: were you worried when you turned 50? >> no, it was like-- it was just wake up, it's another day. everybody makes a deal b you know, you're 50, half a century and stuff like that. i felt like 40 to me. just felt like another decade, really. i suppose the only thing at 50, you can really start to look forward to is just totally irresponsibility. >> rose: irresponsibility. >> total irresponsible. as you get older you can sit in a chair, you can wear anything you want. you can walk down-- old people dress cool, you know, they wear sweat pants. the elderly have it down. >> rose: somebody once said to me when i became 60, i used to care about what people thought of me. now i only care about what i think of them. >> exactly.

i remember mar long distinctly saying he reached a certain point in his life where he just finally was able to utter the word it's, i just don't care. and the way he said it, to me, was, it was like you know, it was as if he had attained nirvana. you know. >> rose: what did he mean or does he mean to you? marlon brando. >> marlon brando, i mean he means everything to me. he is-- he was a great friend, a great mentor, a great teacher, a great father. one of the best friends, one of the funniest people i've ever known. and i was so lucky to be welcomed into his life. and again like spending time with a person, like mar long who has such wisdom, you-- was's great is when you are with that person that you know is so special

in your life and you're aware of how special that time is, that's the great thing that i carry with me. but i think about him every day. every day i hear him. >> rose: he worried a little bit about you working too hard. >> yeah. >> rose: he said what? >> he said how many film does you do a year. and i said i don't know, depends. you know, maybe three. >> too much. >> i said what dow mean too much. he said you only have so many faces in our pockets, you know. it makes sense, man. you run out of characters. >> rose: but de tell to you do hamlet. >> he did. he-- practically begged me to-- he said just drop out, drop out of hollywood. just walk away, for a year. just take off. go to london. study hamlet, play that part before it's too latement

because he said i never got a chance to play it, you know. so it's one of those things that, you know, ping-pongs around in your head for years and years. and you do get to a certain point where you go am i a little long in the tooth to play hamlet now. >> rose: so when are you going to do it. >> yeah, exactly. >> rose: i'll play mar long, when are you going to do it. >> yeah, exactly. i don't know, boy. it is, you know t is that cliched dream of an actor, you know, to play the dame. it really is. >> rose: all you have to do is tell them you want to do it. >> they-- the stage would have to be so far away from the audience at this point. >> rose: hunter thompson. >> hmmmm. >> rose: what did he mean to you. >> again, everything. very similar to mar long, but from another angle, as you know. a very different, different angle. but wris wise and hilarious

and again, someone that i knew at that time was very special. >> rose: it is clear with you that attracts or brings my respect, you care about friends deeply. >> sure. >> rose: you are deeply loyal to friends. >> yeah. >> rose: and it's a certain strain that runs through them. they are real authentic people who seem to march to their own drummer. >> indeed, yeah. i've been so blessed, you know, in that sense from mar long to hunter to you know, my great friend patti smith to my great friend keith richards. alpa chino, i have been-- you know, i don't know that why i have been this lucky but i have. >> rose: are you still learning about acting? >> oh, i think you learn every time out of the gate. i think that's the thrilling

thing about the process is that every time are you out there and you give it a shot, you know, with a character that might make people a little nervous initially, especially people with their wallets involved, it's, the process itself is a gas. and you are out there trying to do something different each time because your main responsibility, i think, as an acker aside from serving the script and the author and the director, is to the audience which is to not bother them, pry something different each time, you know, and each time you try something different you're stretching out a bit. >> rose: what's interesting is you find a hook too. with jack spar owe it was keith. >> keith was most assuredly one of the main ingredients in captain jack. >> rose: with tonto it's this photograph. >> tonto it is the photograph and sort of this idea of dissecting-- .

>> rose: the multifacets of it. >> the multifacets of the man, the warrior, the child. >> the desperate need to a ving his dignities, integrity, you know. >> rose: it's also interesting how you prepare for a role. i mean you're a big reader. >> yeah. >> rose: -- wound knee. >> oh yeah. >> rose: sure. >> rose: all of that to inform you about the context of a character's life? >> to-- yeah, just in terms of studying what-- i mean because it's a subject that i've been fascinated with for years. it's a subject that mar long and i spoke about. >> and he spoke at the academy awards. >> yeah, he sure did. in a very interesting way. it's been something in my life, it's always been

fascinating to me. so to learn, to really learn, you know, when you read say howard zin's people's history of the united states and you realize that, you know, the human beings that were here who were doing just fine before then,ical up bus thought he did india, therefore called them indians. and we're still there. >> rose: and then the trail of tears. >> the trail of tears, you know, the moving westward, the forcing these people off their rightful land. forcing theme people to abandon their ways and go to christian church and you know, dress up and wear a tie. i mean it's-- it was, you know, practically genocide. i mean just a genocide of a

people. and so when you have a character that in a film like the lone ranger has to carry that gravity but at the same time entertain, it's kind of an interesting tightrope joo. >> rose: i mean it's possible that what happens on the screen with you in lone ranger playing the tonto the way you do, trying to re-create the nature of the relationship of the lone ranger, re-create the warrior that he was, not some second banana so to speak. >> indeed. >> rose: you may change the ideas of young people living on indian reservations. >> that's my hope. >> rose: really? >> that's my hope. that was really all of it for me is the idea that if there is some way that i can come up with a character that is interesting enough to people, to kids, especially, but to people, if i get ten kids, 20 kids off a reservation who go, you know what, i didn't

listen the elders. i want to listen to the elders. i want to keep my heritage alive. i want my culture to live on. and i want to know mylan gaugement i want mylan gauge alive. if 20 kids grab hold of that and stick it in their pockets, i'm feeling good. because that's going to multiply and multiply and multiply. >> rose: self-image is everything. >> i'm hoping that yeah, kids will be able to feel that, yeah, i'm not-- i'm not what they said about me for the last 200 years. i'm not lesser than. i'm a warrior. and that's-- then i think i did my job all right. >> rose: what have kids meant for you? >> kids? >> rose: yu kids. >> my kids, everything. >> rose: what dow mean. >> everything. it's really made me grow up, that's for sure. >> rose: really? >> yeah, oh they made me grow up. >> rose: you mean take

responsibility or -- >> well, no, just as they, you know, sort of progress throughout life, you know, my son, my boy jack is now 11, my daughter is 14. you know, you start getting hit about some very interesting situations in life, you know, as a parent, when they approach that teenage arena. which is frightening because you still have memories of that age. and the things that you might have been doing at that age. so yeah, no,. >> rose: and you lay awake thinking god, i hope they don't do what i did. >> oh, god, please don't do what i did. >> rose: but i mean it really does make getting up in the morning for you. >> absolutely. no, i learned from them every day, you know. there is such wisdom there those children, i mean look at the life that they have led. my children have lived like fugitives, you know, in a way.

i mean. >> rose: the pap razz sythere. >> the pap razz syalways there. my daughter goes shopping and the paparazzi all all over. that's an ugly thing. if it's on me, you know, i'm to the going to complain because look, i'm here in the ring. but the kids didn't ask for if-- didn't ask for it. i learn from them because the way that they deal with it is-- ah, it's to big deal, dad, don't worry about it. they're so grown-up about it, while i'm raging, they're like don't worry, pop. >> rose: really? >> yeah. >> rose: they have a calming influence. >> yeah, oh yeah. >> rose: and they got, you could explain and talk to them in the split from their mother and having to come, which is always unpleasant regardless of what happens. >> always, always. but they-- i mean my kids and vanessa by the way, i mean, it was a very sort of

calm moment because it had-- we had arrived at a place as people do where there is no room, when you have children there is just no room for lies. there's no room for anything but the truth. it's not anything other than that is a bad example, i believe. so i mean obviously there are ways to smooth things out but i mean, we were just very truthful with them. and they were incredibly understanding, incredibly accepting. >> rose: an love you both. >> and very grown-up about it. and understand that there's no love lost anywhere. it's just the way-- this is life this is a part of life. and they, i was extremely

proud of them, the way they dealt with it. >> rose: music tooment when i think of you as a guy tarist, patti smith did that wonderful interview and said wherever i go there is a guitar. >> yeah. >> rose: music is what you wanted to be. >> it still is my life. it always was. i just don't do it for a living any more. but music for sure was and still is my first love. and funny because it has just been over the last couple of years where i have started to have the opportunity to play for and more whether it's on a friend's record or you know, get invitesed to go and play a show with someone, do a few songs. it all started happening in the last couple of years and it's been a gas because it's my natural habitat, really. is to have a guitar strapped to me. >> rose: yeah, but when you play, you didn't want to be the vocalist, you wanted to be the man in the shadows.

>> exactly. when i was, you know, playing clubs at a, 16, 17 years old, even then i was you know, trying to stay out of the lights. you know, trying to stay in the darkness. and just play my guitar. >> rose: now is any of that still part of who you are be. >> most definitely. >> rose: really? >> i still, you know, the idea of being that lead singer, of being the fronts man to me when you are in a group or a ban is-- . >> rose: so you would rather be keith than mick. >> i would rather be keith than mick, indeed, yeah, that is what it boils down to, no disrespect, mick. >> none whatsoever. >> rose: exactly. be a good vocalist, fine with me, i just want to be great. >> great, i can't do that, don't want to. >> rose: so look ahead, why the prioritieses are, what are they? >> i think now in this, you know, 50 let's say, start of

a new decade, i think the goals are a little bit pore based-- maybe slightly more selfish in a sense. not selfish but that search for a little more freedom here and there, a little, maybe a little less work, a little mohr time with the quides, you know, a little more freedom, a little more time off. >> rose: more space. >> more space, more able to breathe and not, you know, have to be the novelty. >> rose: what's interesting about you too, you work with directors more and more. i mean tim burton and you have done -- >> 7 or 8 i think yeah. >> rose: in this film, the director. >> gore van inski, i think

might be our fifth or sixth. >> rose: what is that about? just simply finding a place, a zone, a comfort? >> just, yeah, just so happens, you know, the relationship between tim and i, you know, over the past 20 something years has really blossomed into a kind of a very unique and interesting partnership, though you know gi off and do this and he goes off and does that, we still come back together. gore, same thing, you know, he's a-- he's a masterful filmmaker. and he's not afraid to try anything. and i've never seen anyone just keep it together. he holds it all together so incredibly well under that pressure. >> rose: patti smith said but rebelluous as rochester, as loving as the hatter, as ill behaved as jack spar owe, does that fit?

>> i'll take it. that's suites of her, that's very sweet of patti. i don't know, i think there was a director i worked with one time said come on now, it's time to get serious. and i remember looking at him and saying really? you're going turn a camera on and we're going to go out here and lie. i mean yeah, we'll do whatever, but i mean essentially what this is play, isn't it. it's play time, you know. and if we are stuck to some sort of rigid, you know, box, then you're to the going to get anything. the only way to get anything is to go out there and have a ball, you know. >> rose: i couldn't agree more. this is also this though, when music was your first love and then acting came and acting flourished, do you have some sense now that this is what you were here to do?

>> i tell you, i've always had the sense that somewhere along the line a radical turn was made and i wasn't at the wheel, necessarily, you know. that the transition from muss ig to actor was-- musician to acker was abrupt and confusing. you know, because there is something to be said about the camaraderie and safety of a group, of a band. you have four or five guys or whatever. when it's you out there on your own, suddenly, and people are pointing and you know, you're not the most extroverted guy in the world, it's a real shock to your system, you know. because suddenly people are pointing at you and not the lead singer. >> rose: exactly. but if they point at you and ask, is there a pattern here, in the characters he's chosen and the value he

seems to reflect, what would you say? >> i would say if there is a pattern it's again, it's an exploration of the outside or the outsider or was's considered the outsider or the underdog. or the damage to, you know, those are the things that i find interesting about people. you know, the great thing hunter said a lot as well, and it's the same thing as an actor. hunter as a journalist, his most important sliver of his job was to observe. and at a certain point he was no-- he could no longer be the observer. he was being observed. and my whole world is about observation, you know, watching people and learning the ticks and why do we do

this and that's an-- interesting way to phrase something. i pen that's-- i watch people. >> so watching him and living literally living with hunter, you understood. >> i lived with hunter in his spider riddled gun powdered filled basement for months on end. and i sponged him and i told him, i am sponging. >> rose: i'm soaking everything up. >> i'm soaking everything up, you know. >> rose: he committed suicide at 67. >> yup. >> rose: and famously left a suicide note t is said. i didn't see it. that after 50, you know, almost as if, i i didn't understand that. >> no, hunter felt that he had lived like 30 years too long. >> rose: yeah, 17 at least. >> he just felt that-- . >> rose: or 27. >> exactly. and he was at that point-- and you know, for those of us who knew him, we

knew all along that that was most likely be the way he would go. so it wasn't-- i mean it's always a shock but it wasn't that much of a shock. what it was was just devastation because a whole universal was-- that you were connected to has been lopped off. and you know you'll never get those 3 a.m. calls any more. and there were the mad, you know, driving through the hills in aspen, you know, the tiping elling of ice and scotch and madness, you know. >> rose: johnny, thank you, great to see you. >> charlie, it's great to see you as always. i look forward to whatever. >> rose: all that we do. >> yeah. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you.

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