>>rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening the campaign of anthony weiner for mayor of new york. we talk to michael barbaro of the new york times, ken auletta of the new yorker and jodi kantor, of the new york times. >> no one questions that mike bloomberg is honest, that he speaks the truth, that his personal life has integrity to it. when you are asking voters to contemplate bringing anthony weiner into office you are asking them to cast a ballot for somebody who has been untruthful. for quite some time. >>rose: jodi. you know also one of the first rules of political pr and

crisis is you get all the bad stuff out before you begin again. if you haven't hit bottom you must hit bottom before you can start rebuilding your reputation. >>rose: that's -- and so this thing that doesn't quite make sense to me, here is how they could embark on this new race with so much energy and all of this story-telling and this very sort of carefully woven tale of a bid for redemption knowing that they pretty much knew that something like this could happen. they -- they sort of -- they sort of stichte stipulated thatt might. but didn't these very savvy professionals know that this could have come along and sweep the race? >>rose: we continue with steven cohen and his sac capital

advisors, hedge fund. with sheelah kolhatkar and tom keene. >> they basically impugn the entire culture of sac capital. they said that cohen the hedge fund owner was hiring people specifically, the kinds of people who could potentially leak them information that he was compensating those people and rewarding them for bringing that information and trading off of it and essentially this indictment is so sweeping and strong that it makes it seem as if the entire company was sort of somehow imreplies it in this illegal activity. >> guilty of saying insider trading is insider trading. in the cfa exams which a lot of the pros take you spend a lot of u:u of three exams defining what insider trader is and it's very, very squishy. it's an extremely hard body of law to get your hands around and i would suggest that's one of the problems the sec and the

government has is, what are you going to charge them with? is it moral responsibility, is it dereliction of management or sit this fuzzy thing called insider trading. >>rose: we continue with chris fischer the founder of ocearch whose mission is to save the great white shark. >> standing next oa great white shark you feel like you're standing next to a living dinosaur. the impact that has on people is amazing. you'll see the most mature scientists, people like bob peter, they have been studying them for years, and never seen a live one. you see a grown man come to tears and you are standing next to an animal that is evolutionary perfection, that is the king of the sea. >>rose: anthony weiner's campaign, steve cohen's legal

case, chris fischer and the great white sharks when we continue. funding for the charlie rose show is provided by the following: >>rose: additional funding provided by these funders: >> and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia services worldwide.

from our captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. anthony weiner's campaign for new york city mayor suffered another setback. his campaign manager danny kedham resigned this weekend. he vowed to stay in the race. joining us for assessment is michael barbaro for the new york times, also ken auletta of the new yorker magazine and the new york bureau jodi kantor, i'm pleased to have them both. you have been away on a little vacation. >> thank you. sorry, i'm back. >>rose: you've been writing about this every day. i'll begin with jodi, jodi, what do you make about this? >> i want to quote anthony weiner's interview, he said, you're stuck with me which is kind of a hostile way of saying

i'm still in this race, i'm not getting out. so even though you know the ship is beginning to fall apart, the campaign manager resigned as michael reported he seems totally committed to this. and one thing we don't see is at least a visible -- we see all of these visible figures on the outside telling ethical get out. peeping were just scafing over the weekend, david axelrod and schaeffer were saying, get out of this race. there isn't anybody close to him, who has authoritative reaction to him that tells him he should leave. >>rose: michael, does he listen to anybody except program um after? >> anthony weiner has since he entered politics had a entirely self sufficient campaign. he doesn't solicit or want the kind of kitchen cabinet we want.

and that's been his biggest liability as a politician. he doesn't have alliances. he you could count on one hand how many people liked him. that's why he has this being sort of -- >>rose: what he is saying that convinces him to stay in the race? >> the reason to stay in this race is, largely, reputational and at this point financial. he has $5 million the new york city campaign finance system has allowed him to hold onto that even when -- on the that even when he was in that very scandalous period a few years ago. it was the amount of money that allowed him to enter the race. and why not? if you are anthony weiner, create advertisements that help clear very burr nished reputation, about anything but

this scandal. >>rose: what's your -- i don't think he can do it. i don't think it will work. polls come out showing more than half of the public would not vote for him. it's very hard to overcome that kind of a negative. now i know people said he could have overcome it before this latest disclosure of last week came out. i didn't believe it then, i don't believe it now. >>rose: you didn't believe it? people say you don't -- you might have one chance for redemption but not two or three chances for redemption. >> the mathematical issue, several weeks later there's a runoff, no one's going to get over 40% so anthony weiner if he got in the runoff, if he came in first or second he's going to be posted against someone else. i don't see how you overcome a 50% negative against another foe. i just don't see how you go that. >>rose: and what about uma jodi? she is as interesting and as

fascinating because she had such a mystique and such a reputation because of her service and her work with hillary clinton. >> yeah, one of the things we've seen in the last couple of things is she in fact has gotten beaten up along with her husband. generally wives who have been attached to men with those kinds of sexual scandals are figures of sympathy and yet last week the tide sort of turned against her. there was a harsh new york post cover that said what is wrong can you, senora danger. she was a very private figure who never spoke in public to a very public one. does she give more interviews, more speeches, does she continue to talk about this sort of story line of reconciliation that she had been telling for weeks and weeks, even though we now know that the reconciliation didn't happen exactly the way they were telling the story? so i think the question of

whether she retreats or comes to the forum more, tells us about the couple and what they want. >>rose: what would you think? i think jodi is right, if she starts to show up in campaign advertising that would be very interesting. i'm sure there was a ton of private pain. there was a provocative piece written by a woman who thought, maybe this is a very open marriage. >>rose: you mean it's about power and position rather than about love? >> that every marriage is its own black box and we're never going to be able to know if it's love or power that animates this or it's a combination of both. >> but no one wants to be humiliated and she was humiliated and chose to handle her humiliation as jodi is suggesting, in a way not sympathetic. >> and she's also part of new

york's most interesting and important political family. you know, i think what new yorkers are really saying is that if you know, there is one scene we could watch, all of us, it would be the scene between hillary clinton and uma avedon. and how to work through it and how the political circumstances work through it. the question i don't think any of us can answer is what advice exactly hillary clinton has given to her. especially since it is really true this is not a great moment for the clintons to have another sexual political scandal associated with them. if you have watched the clintons up close in the last couple of years, one of the things you can see especially with the former president is just how strenuously he has tried to put monica lewinski behind him. he has had a legacy tour of my record was about economic growth not about monica lewinski.

this scandal coming up for them at the worst possible time. >>rose: what we don't know is whether hillary clinton is giving advice. whether there are conversations taking place, can you imagine they are not taking place because of the deep personal relationship between these two people, almost like a daughter. >> almost like a daughter. bill clinton officiated at the marriage. this despite the fact that many people in the clinton world never wanted them to get married. always found him to be a figure repellant, obnoxious, we don't know whether hillary clinton is talking about it. we are waiting to pick up the scraps of what they said so they are going to be extremely discreet about it. >>warren: how do you say to someone, i want to talk to you about your spouse, i don't think you married well? it's a conversation that's very hard to have. >> i don't think that's the conversation they would have. we are in the realm of pure

speculation here. i think the question as a reporter i would ask is either bill or hillary clinton picking up the phone to say huma it is really time for him to cut his losses and get out of the race. that is the type of advice that very senior political figures give. >>rose: and suppose he comes back and says that is not what you did, you stayed in. >> well, and then you know, it's very hard to imagine the clintons interfering in this kind of circumstance. but there are all sorts of things the clintons can do to make life either easier or harder for anthony or huma in the coming months. >>rose: it's fascinating. i don't think many people understand the time line here. >> weiner resigned in twefn after lying about these posts on

twitter. a year later, he is doing a series of interviews with magazines like people who paint a rosy picture of a man who has been rehabilitated. >>rose: with the baby now part of the family. that was part of the equation. >> one of those interviews was july 2nd of 2011. ten days later anthony weiner ask found on a phone having a conversation with sydney leathers, a woman with whom he exchanges unspeakably raunch yir conversations about sex, and then of his penis and his body, as he wove this narrative of recovery. >>rose: and then the story comes out because it was a rocky time in the marriage and there was a relapse. >> that's not what they were telling us or what she said subsequent to that.

there's a whole spin here that in retrospect as michael is suggesting is not true and goes to credibility. >>rose: and is that in the end what this is about about lying and hypocrisy, or rather than the sexual act? >> what any race is about for any office is how does the public feel about that candidate? do they trust his or her character? >>rose: it's about character. it's about judgment. love him hate him, like the bikes, don't like the pedestrian plazas, no one questions that mike bloomberg is honest, that he speaks the truth, that his personal life has integrity to it. when you are asking voters to contemplate bringing anthony weiner into office you're asking them to cast a ballot for somebody who has been untruthful. come up with the word you choose about his personal life for some time. >>rose: jodi. one of the rules of political pr and crisis pr is you get all

the bad stuff out before you begin again. if you haven't hit bottom you must hit bottom before you start rebuilding your reputation. so what doesn't make sense to me is how they could embark on this new race with so much energy and all of this story-telling, and this very sort of carefully woven tale of a bid for redemption, knowing that they pretty much knew that something like this could happen. they -- they sort of -- they sort of stipulated that it might, but didn't these two very savvy political professionals know that something like this could come along and sweep the race? >> but you know, we have any number of examples. i was hiking the appalachian trail. >>rose: or in brazil. elliot is trying to escape his security details so he can go away with a prostitute. people make incredibly stupid

decision in these situations. >>rose: like the president of the united states. >> especially the president of the united states. >> but in original sin not in search for redemption. >> maybe. but the other thing worth a moment charlie is to talk about the press. >>rose: okay. and the kind of coverage. this has been -- if you watch the evening news it's been all over the national evening news. if you were in europe as i was last week it was all over the press there. what is it about this that has enthralled us, and i'm not talking about this show, it is worthy to talk about a guy running for mayor and whether he has character to perform that job. the press is having a great fun and readers reading this but this is getting a little much. >>rose: this is bob scheiffer, the end of his sunday show face

the nation. because new york is so big and is the media capital of the world the mayor of new york occupies a bully pulpit second in bullishness only to the white house. stories about that make -- raise real questions about behavior is about to have a chance to occupy, you know, what was called when you were back in politics the second most important job in america. >> he is getting somewhat like carter's girls were -- >> why anthony weiner occupancy this interest to begin with. he is a profoundly gifted retail politician. terms of phrase tumble out of his mouth. he has a presence i would argue in a room arrival rivals that o.

>>chris: ie, hof. chris chris he still has that power. >>rose: maybe that is why he had a chance of becoming mayor. >> that's right. i think we're talking about him because this is a delicious subject for the public loves it. we're selling newspapers and getting you know, more viewers to watch our shows. >>rose: lm -- go ahead. i'm just really curious about what the best-case scenario is for anthony weiner. it does seem very unlikely that he could win a mayoral race. five years from now, what can you imagine, what can you -- what do you think he is imagining as the optimum outcome for him at this point? >>rose: i don't know, i was thinking way off the -- you remember president obama was quoted by somebody called

blowworth, and remember warren beatty played a senator that was going to call it like it is. playing the bullworth card, the stuff is out there i'm going to say what i want to about politics. >> bob scheiffer, brings out, i'm a fighter, screw all these people, we understand each other. >> michael also answered jodi's question, it's about redemption for him, his reputational redemption. if he makes a fair showing, doesn't win but makes a fair showing, comes out can hold his head up high that he ran a campaign of issues, he comes out enhanced, he just does, and that might be satisfactory. >>rose: is that enough for him? at this stage? >> at this stage -- rose: he might be saying, it's my reputation not about being mayor? >> i think that's right. correct. rose: you both agree on that?

jodi, do you agree, this is about reputation not about becoming marry? >> absolutely. rose: and huma, what's it about for her? >> i assume about the same thing. when you read the new york times magazine piece in which she spoke it's pretty clear that she believes or believed in the promise of him as a politician and i'm sure anybody in that position would prefer not to be married to a disgraced former footnote, et cetera, et cetera. but married to somebody who went on to go and do something meaningful. >>rose: what did she say? she said in that famous press conference, i love him, i believe in him, i trust him? >> but also, that it was really hard to stay with him. that was an extraordinary press conference because i've never seen public pain aired like that in such real time. she was still going through it and there she was talking about a deliberation about whether to stay with her husband.

>>rose: what was amaze going that whole story line all of us are attracted to great stories, where she was what pedestal she was on and how people talked with her the mystique that she had and now to be so closely attached to something so scandalous. >> we know his interior. we have seen some pictures of miss interior. we don't know hers, she has a more interesting character. >>rose: because? she's an interesting character. >>rose: you got to believe this has to be part of her makeup to have served like she did and with secretary clinton the way she did, she must have remarkable toughness, remarkable ability, remarkable sense of strategic wisdom. >> but up like her husband she was really a well liked figure in the clinton -- he never has been. >>rose: okay, there you go. that makes it more interesting. >> you know celebrity never hurt

a man who has a corporate consulting business waiting in the wings for him which anthony weiner does. it was named after his great grandfather, it made him a great deal of money before the race, hopefully will make it after the race. the park avenue apartment they live in, the rent is about $12,000 a month. it seems likely he can go back to that life. >> the biggest revelation may be elliot spitzer because i have talked to a lot of people in the last couple of days who feel that spitzer's sexual scandal looks completely generic when it comes to weiner. there are graphic pictures of his body on the internet and the spitzer affair which was quite outsized does seem to fade in comparison. >>rose: jodi suggests spitzer may be benefiting from that, maybe? >> in a sense when you put those two gentlemen side by side, one

seems to have a much bigger record as an elected official, that would be elliot spitzer. when you look at what he did as attorney general of new york, the case he brought, the money he drew out of corporations that never did when he was attorney general, that is not the record that anthony weiner had. he wrote and passed really one bill in his time. >>rose: that was part of the reason bill clinton was able to overcome the odds he faced because people liked him as president and believed he had been a good president and he had friends. >> but people don't like elliot spitzer, i suspect one of the things that will happen after this cloud passes, i assume it will unless there are other revelations, there are a lot of people, the labor unions who really don't like elliot spitzer and want to help his opponent and i suspect the guns are going to start blasting away with elliot spitzer in the next few

months around i suspect we are not done with his, quote, scandal. >>rose: thank you, gentlemen and thank you, jodi. >> thank you. rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. the case against steven cohen, the securities & exchange commission has brought a charge, the sec says it will continue operations as it fights in court. prosecutors call the evidence of wrongdoing voluminous. questions of oversight and business practices of hedge funds. sheelah kolhatkar, spond to bloomberg businessweek. and tom keene, he is the editor at large of bloomberg news and the host of "bloomberg surveillance," one of my favorite programs. i'm pleased to have him here.

i'll begin with you. how voluminous evident of wrongdoing, tell me what the sec looks at this and what is behind this indictment? >> well, essentially the u.s. government has accused sac capital as being criminally responsible for the action he of analysts and traders who have been trading based on improper information. >>rose: insider information? snideinsider information. the u.s. attorney in are manhattan said this was unprecedented in the hedge fund industry, very strong wording. they basically impugn the entire culture of sac capital, they said that cohen's contacts with executives at public companies, executives that could leak him information, that he was compensating those people and

rewarding them for bringing that information and trading off of it. and essentially this indictment is so sweeping and strong that it makes it sound as if the entire company was somehow implicit in this illegal activity. >>rose: there is an impression tom, that lots of people believe that there's an effort to get steve cohen. >> from where i sit, with the interviews i've had there is an idea which sheelah knows a lot better than i do, i think you're innocent until proven guilty but that process may not happen. he may go out of business before we even get to that decision. the idea of do you get him through the legal process either sec or the courts or do you get him just through process? >>rose: do you think that would be part of they want to do grievous damage to his company and therefore they would get him -- >> i think there's no question about that. you can't run a business based on trust with these charges these allegations made against you. >> well, essentially they have been trying for months and even

years to -- >>rose: because they believed that he was guilty of insider trading? >> well the, the government has been involved on this huge crack down on insider trading for years. >>rose: and some have gone to prison. >> they have been after portfolio manager and portfolio manager, amassing a doe dossierd they would have preferred to charge cohen himself. >>rose: did not, because -- that says to me they are charging the company, which is an unusual move, they were not able to get the case against him personally for insider trading. they didn't have a witness that talked to them about insider trading. >>rose: do you believe that as this process unwinds that somebody might turn and therefore they have a case?

>> i think there's always hope. i mean, last week, the u.s. attorney said well, tomorrow's another day and they haven't ruled it out. now i would think that cohen if you were to sort of settle these charges would expect his own immunity to be part of that. but it's certainly an open question whether or not he is -- >> i think what's interesting out here is insider trading, you and i throw it out, we are guilty of saying, insider trading this, insider trading that. in the csa exams which a lot of these people take, you spent the first few exams defining what insiderriner -- insider trading. it's a particularly squishy problem. is it dereliction of duty or this fuzzy thing called insider trading? >>rose: one small point. my impression is or or my

understanding is, whatever size his fund is in the sec a lot of it is his own personal money, he's not simply built up as many people in the hedge fund world do, they go out and raise money for a fund and then they get rich because they take a percentage, the 2 in 20 or whatever it is. but a lot of this money is his money, his own capital. >> no question about it. rose: why wouldn't that continue, why ask that going to be damage? >> i would suggest sheelah, even when you have to continue with the billions of dollars that mr. cohen wouldin would manage s family's money. >> certainly the trading partners, goldman sacs, morgan stanley, they cannot stop him from trading his own money. the sec filed civil charges against cohen accusing him of failing to supervise his employees. they could win a bar for cohen but that would mean he couldn't

serve as an investment advisor, but because of terrible stories swirling around him and he's argued all along that he hasn't done anything wrong but this publicity has already caused many of his investors to flee. he's got around a billion dollars in outsider money as well as his own money. he's managing his own money although it would be such a large pile, it would be a large force in the market. >>rose: tell me what his skills are? >> he is an information junky. people who know him describe him as incredibly smart, mercurial, moody. he wants to talk to his traders, he became famous, a tape reader as someone who could look at the market on the stock ticker tape and impugn where stock prices were going to go. and he essentially turned that into an incredibly profitable

business. >>rose: what about his reputation? >> what he does, hard charging, knowledge based as sheelah says. you and i remember the saw dust on the floor and the cigar bips. this guy is lined up with computers, reading the tape is not what they're doing. at bloomberg, shameless plug, what they're doing is making minute decisions over short time fraings based on an information advantage and the question here for the government, i would suggest, was there a fairness in that information advantage? they're not investing over three weeks or three years. they're investing over, it could be three seconds. or a day, is a long time. it's short-term work. >>rose: and they gave him information, unfair advantage to make that trade? >> i can't tell you that now. rose: no, no, that's the question. >> the question was how fair was their information received? >>rose: rt must be a hard

determination to make that. >> i agree, i don't agree that it's insider trading or something new they're inventing now. >> that's somewhat unfirm, the aspects or definition of insider trading is still being worked out but this edge comes up, very common term on wall street, it's used a little less shamelessly now but it used to be sort of a code for your information advantage. what is the edge? what is the thing you know that other people don't know that will allow you to make money? it used to get tossed around a lot, without any shame or concept of hiding it. now the whole concept of edge should be, you shouldn't be trading on information that other people don't have it. >>rose: i'm quoting felix

salmon, it's much harder to understand what a trader does, of what differentiates a good trader from a bad trader. >> i agree. i interviewed julian robertson, you know the book, more money than god. >>rose: right right. he was adamant that this would not affect the hedge fund industry, because steven cohen's work is so different and unique. >>rose: how about the tiger fund that he founded? >> oh, absolutely, that's the tone i got from mr. robertson. >>rose: what is steven cohen saying, they're after me, i'm not guilty, this is a terrible miscarriages of justice. >> all looping, as two portfolio managers, one former and one current was charged and now he himself has been charged and his firm has been charged criminally, he has said that he

is not guilty, that there are other explanations for this. >>rose: the other reasons for it? >> it is difficult to prosecute hedge fund managers, especially for steven cohen because he so active in the market. he will trade 80 different securities in one day. who is to say what is driving a trading decision and of course he always points to the fact that they have a very large compliance department, he believe they have 38 people. >>rose: former sec people and people like that. >> they have hired people from goldman sachs. now the government is arguing that that is something that people didn't actually pay any attention to, that it was there for show that they weren't actually -- >>rose: they are arguing that this is before they had the compliance fund-the compliance operation in place? >> there is a little bit about that too. some of these go back to 2008,

and criminal activity going back to 1999. his compliance department, compliance procedures one could assume have become more robust over the years. >>rose: talk about hedge funds in general, are they changing, making more money, or less money and what will they be looking at in this case? >> without question there will be more day-to-day rigor of are we doing the right things and what are our best practices in place, particularly in terms of information flow. the backdrop of this is on average, hedge funds have underperformed. you mentioned earlier charlie, the 2% and 20% where you get a big fat fee of 2% versus less than 1% at most funds and you get 20% of a gain over a hurdle rate. you make the hurdle rate and you make 20% over that. most hedge funds haven't made that, they have underperformed. >>rose: why is that? we could go for hours on

that. the answer is it is a very difficult business to provide superior returns in any i'm being generous, 15% much hedge funds get it right, earn the fee and keep their investors happy. i want you to know, sac capital was in that area at the time. >>rose: four in 50? i wouldn't know about that, away from superstars like mr. cohen. >>rose: i was told among superstars you know this better than i do. >> mr. cohen charges higher fees than anybody else in the business, he used to. yes, his firm was taking 50% of the profits and the reason they were able to do that is because they outperformed for you. they only had one down year, 2008. they had years and years of 25

even higher returns. they made many investors very rich. they are loyal to him. i think many of them are reluctant to leave, because they feel he did well for them. >>rose: is it easier for hedge funds to raise funds now or has it become more difficult? >> well, there's still a lot of money flowing into hedge funds in general. but i do think there are a lot of hard conversations going on among endowment, pension fund managers and their boards about whether they can justify paying these fees. because as tom mentioned they have been underperforming, the s&p, the market has been going up. hedge funds really are not meant to do that. they are meant to provide diversification, they are meant to provide in a way that's not correlate lated to the market so they look at that. >>rose: could you argue that hedge funds were where the best and brightest work because they make the most money?

>> you're right. i was sitting in a meeting with the chairman of the sec, bill donaldson, i requested him the question and he said tom, it's a brain drain on wall street, that's exactly what it's been. they make three times, two and a half times what a so-called buy-side manager makes. and the smartest people have gone to the hedge fund industry, with that is mediocrity. there are the underperformers. >>rose: where are we? hedge funds are under scrutiny and what is the next thing to happen, what is the next turn of the dial? >> sheelah knows it better than i do. but i would say they are all under test in a market that's up 19% year-to-date and most hedge funds aren't up 19% year-to-date. where most of them are, not much about steven cohen but their own picture at the end of the year.

>> i would say the cohen story, reefng its peak is going to cause some soul searching. for cohen himself he's got a criminal case that his firm has got oconfront and that's going to drag on for a long time and employ many, many high priced lawyers. >>rose: and make enough money to buy more art and beautiful homes. >> he will continue to buy beautiful things and the government prosecutors will continue to be annoyed when they read about that in the newspaper. >>rose: thank you, sheelah, tom. go home, go to bed, you've been up since 3:00. we'll be right back. stay with us. chris fischer may know mower about sharks than anybody alive. he founded ocearch, ocearch has tracked more than 100 sharks. the vast majority have been

great whites. the organization takes a novel approach to catching and biosampling on board without using a harpoon. over 40 sharks are being tracked around the world on his web site. i'm pleased to have chris fischer at this table. welcome. >> thank you charlie, it is a pleasure to be here. >> we have been doing conversations at cbs and i'm honored to have you here. tell me this thing about you and sharks. >> this thing is about me and the ocean and sharks are the way i can effect change soonest and one of the biggest crisis on the water. and so we have massive knowledge gaps of all these giant creatures and if we don't solve the puzzle of their lives we can't ensure their future and without their live there is no future of the ocean. >>rose: ecosystem of the ocean is determinate by what the

sharks do? >> they are the great balance keeper, the loin of the ocean, lion of the ocean. if they get removed, the rest of the system collapses falls out of balance and right now, 200,000 sharks today were finned and removed from the ocean. up to 73 million a year. >>rose: by whom? by commercial fishermen finning them to send those fins to asia for a bowl of soup. we are trading the future of the ocean for a bowl of soup. >>rose: when you look at them tell me about the majesty of the great whites, also the fear they induce in people. >> this is one of the most humbling things you can experience standing next to a great white shark, you feel like you're standing next to a living dinosaur. the impact that has on people is amazing. thing guys who have been studying animals for 40 years

have never touched a live one. you see a grown man come to tears. and you're standing next to an animal that is evolutionary perfection. that is the king of the sea. >>rose: what are his qualities? how big is he, what does he weigh? >> 18 feet long. rose: what is the difference between he and she? >> she is always fatter than he is, over 4,000 pounds so she can carry ten, four and a half foot babies. >>rose: four and a half foot babies? >> they give birth to them, they drop them off on a beach where there's plenty of food. he is far more aggressive, he is 18 feet long not as fat as she is but far more determined. and to begin to solve their puzzle, he wanders to and from the breeding sight every year, she goes on a two-year migratory

route because it takes her 18 months to have her babies. >>rose: what kind of route will she go on? >> she will go on a route leaving the breeding site, going about a thousand miles a month, until she end up in a place she wrants to gestate. the sofa, halfway between l.a. and hawaii. we are trying to determine where that is in the atlantic, our shark mary lee has shoad us where she is going ogestate. >>rose: why is that? -- where is that? >> right off the florida-georgia border. >>rose: why is that the site? a dependable food source, where she can stay and let her babies grow. >>rose: is the temperature -- warmer, easier to push the energy of the babies. these are all guesses that the scientists and i will talk about, and soon we'll will have the data we need.

>> and you're trielg to get the data for what reason? >> we have to know where the nursery is so we get destructive types out of the nursery. we can't be gill-netting the babies. we have to to know where the nurseries are. we have to discover the breeding sites. we have to give those mature animals a little room, we have to get the balance-seekers. imagine africa with no lions. >>rose: convince the national governments they have to stop? >> absolutely. i spend a lot of time with with policicy makers. it's not necessarily to stop, it's to create a sustainable past. one of the things i'm focused on is maintaining a centrist approach. you have to go where the data

face you and -- takes you. and we need to let the data create a future for our sharks. >>rose: tell me what you do. oh, what do i do? i didn't really know this about myself. i was kind of at a think tank meeting this weekend. i didn't realize how disruptive i am, we are disrupting, we found an entrepreneurial way to get it done which allows us to not search the institution if it serves the resource. we have disrupted the approach to research instead of individuals and institutions trying to get ahead. we get them recall to collaborate and put the sharks in the ocean first. we've disrupted television to some degree, we leverage television for four years, series television, to build a global brand. and fund $10 million worth of research over the years. >>rose: how many have you tagged? >> we have tagged about 100, about 65 great whites.

>>rose: how do you do that? we have to capture the fish. this was part of the method in the beginning we had to pioneer that was very difficult. no one had ever captured these 4,000 pound great whites before. i remember the fear, heading out not knowing what was going to happen. i get emotional, i can't remember -- i can't believe i'm at this table. i believe in 2007, heading out with my captain, who has been with me since the '90s, creating bridges across these communities and not knowing what is going to happen. and we went out there and we got kicked in the face a few times but we never gave up. >>rose: kicked in the face means? >> like they would destroy our gear, breaking our bodies, the biggest gear in the world was being destroyed. i used to sit at a dinner table very much like this at my parents' house, my father and mother were amazing. they used to say, never gem

overwhelmed about a sense of a challenge. an inch is a cinch, a yard is very hard. soon it will be right before you. we inched forward and we figured it out. >>rose: so how will you measure success? >> we will measure success by published papers, 40 published papers being written on our work right now. we will measure success on how inclusive we are, open source, bring the people onto the ship by giving the content away, give the data away, allow the world to track the sharks. and what's really exciting is, really as an explorer we will be there with anyone. at the end of 2015 i will have led my 20th expedition. >>rose: you think of your mission like cousteau? >> i think of my world to po pour the world's oceans into people's home and into

children's homes. we are getting ready to launch a stem based curriculum that's integrated, we will make science cool again, math, geography and geology as they are tracking the great white shark. >>rose: what stands in your way of reaching these goals? >> i think many of the things standing in our way we have already passed through. >>rose: you're two-thirds home say? >> we have proved the method, the pedigree, we are funded, some of our great fortune 500 companies have said, this is great for our brand, great for our children, we will educate your future employees, stem based skills which is the future of our jobs. so now it is about you know keeping everyone alive charlie. it is about leading 22 people on a trip that i go to from here with everything in order, and now just solely living in the moment. to get all the sharks and all the people through it. so that at the end, you know, we

can just, i think, explode our scale in inclusion, and get the whole world exploring. what kid doesn't want to be an explorer? what kid doesn't want to be an explorer, they'll be on the shipper at all times and explore with us. >>rose: there is perception in what is it called, sharknado, a great white puts fear in los angeles, that kind of thing. >> yeah. rose: does that do harm to your goal or is that looked at entertainment and everybody knows the difference? >> i think it's mostly the latter, it's so ridiculous and out there. i think what sharknado is, it's leverage technical impact of sharks. they've got people tweeting while they're watching and driving traffic and it's a successful content distribution strategy, i don't think it has much to do with sharks. >>rose: you had shark week on

the discovery channel. what is that? >> shark week is different than we are. we are replacing all of the unknown with the fear, with facts. so we can be curious about their lives. when you look at -- >>rose: actually what you want to do and i know this from conversation is change the perception so if you appreciate the shark, understand the danger, but appreciate the shark and how it is central to the ecosystem of the ocean, you know, then you will see them in a different way. >> that's correct. rose: and if that kind of idea gains scale, then you may be able to make some inroads in terms of protecting the young sharks. >> absolutely. i mean when i talk to the scientist, if we can shift the tone from the theme music to jaws to one of curiosity, that can be as exciting as anything we learn. >>rose: and the excitement of you being on the water and seeing a great white is what?

>> simple things like i love to see the scientists who see us deliver them something they have never touched. i love covering them up on data, i love the fact that we can be 100% on mission and open source everything. and be inclusive. i believe inclusiveness is inspiring, exclusiveness is a turnoff. so if we can be inclusive at every level, we can inspire the world. >>rose: i want to ask you about two specifics. one, the global shark tracker, you developed that. >> that is being inclusive. that is allowing the world to see our data real time as the sharks travel besides the ph.d.es, so people can be a part of seeing where the shark is going and that's what's creating the conversation with the curious tone. because people are chatting online, what are they doing? why is mary lee doing, is she

giving birth? >>rose: tell them who mary lee is. >> mary lee is a 4,000 pound great white shark tagged off of cape cod that i named after my mother. i thought it was the final shark we would tag. our show had cancelled from the network, i had scraped together the last of my personal liquid cash and i, last september, this is it, if we don't go do this now, it may never happen and i probably can only hold on for a few months before i get buried by the ship and because we weren't making a show for first time i was able to invite the global media to participate on the ship. be inclusive. and suddenly the media distributed the story about our work. and our impressions, the people who followed was six times greater than the amount of

people who had watched our tv series that year on television and suddenly i was like, we're bigger when we are inclusive. we're bigger when we invite the world in to explore than we are by making series television which didn't allow us to do that because it would scoop the series that would air eight months later. >>rose: now, mary lee -- mary lee saves my business, saves my house. >>rose: this shark also stays close to the coast. >> we didn't know this was going to happen. she ignited the southeastern united states. here you have a 16 and a half foot shark spending a tremendous amount of its time in 15 feet of water, right in the surf. and it ignited the southeastern united states. and i'm so proud of that area of the world because those people, you know, you're from that part -- >>rose: north carolina. i'm sorry about the university of louisville's

success in the ncaa. the people are so connected to the ocean, they live on the ocean, love the ocean that they began the conversation about mary lee, it is one of the curiosity, i think they inspired the rest of the country and planet. >>rose: how long will you do this? >> i will do this until the job is done, if that takes the rest of my days, and i can hold it together, i will do that. i am on a application, it is not hard to get out of bed in the morning, there is much needs to be done, if not us, then who? there is no one i would be helping then. >>rose: thank you for coming. pleasure for having me. rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time.

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