the phoenix flea market was back in full swing the phoenix flea market back in full swing today for small business saturday. it's in its fourth celebration of the local shopping event. the flea market had their

square park. vendors like state 48 and hustle mama man made -- handmade were featured at today's easement along with food trucks -- event along with food trucks. today's event celebrated local love and the importance of shopping local this holiday season. >> you're buying from your neighbors and you're helping people and families in your community. and even more than that, that you're helping build and strengthen your local economy, which benefits everyone. >> flea market has a all throughout the year. they'll be back the first saturday coming up in march. you know, there's another great place to get those remaining christmas and holiday gifts. it's the jacke lope artisan market. more than 150 local vendors are there. the jackelope hart and craft fair featured home decor to homemade soap, jewelry and original art.

featured a party atmosphere with workshops and food vendors. we stopped at the event to talk to organizers about the difference between black friday and shopping small. >> it's super important. i mean, two-thirds every dollar that you spend at a local businesses gets reinvested in schools, wages, jobs. it's supporting our local economy. >> if you missed today's event, the artisan market is open again tomorrow from 10:00 to it's free to get in. richard likes free. >> if it's free, it's for me! >> there you go. >> we have a pac-12 champ. would it be colorado or the

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oh.. today was a great day for the college football fan in you.. some fantastic match ups on the schedule today. and some fantastic matchups on the college football schedule today. and the best matchup ended being the best game. an instant classic. you know what game i'm talking about. ohio state and michigan. both teams ranked in the top 5. both teams with 10-1 records but only one team had the lebron james cheering for them. lebron cheering for ohio state of course. but they make a big mistake. you never throw deep in your own territory. wolverines intercepted. hook we are the interception for the -- hooker with the interception for the buckeyes. ohio state, 7 of 7-3. michigan comes back. up 10-7. hill opened for the touchdown. wolverines looking good. this game was so good, we needed overtime. actually, overtime was not enough. how about double overtime.

and we're going to double o.t. the buckeyes go for it on fourth down, 4th and 1. you make the call. wow. it was close. that's why they call it a game of inches. after further review, they say j.t. barrett got the first down. they next play, see ya. wouldn't want to be you. touchdown ohio state. they win it, final score 30-27. in double overtime. unbelievable game. now we alabama. baima ranked number one in the country. this auburn team was trying to keep it close. touchdown, harris, 'bama with the early lead. the tide back for more. gets around the corner. another touchdown for the tide. alabama up 20-9. hurts all day to throw. our darius stewart breaking free. great play. right here, splits the defenders. touchdown tide.

30-12. you saw this game right here on fox 10. pack 12 action. colorado taking on utah. no score in the early going. booby hobbs, i above that name. on the punt -- i love that name. takes it to the house, touchdown utah. they lead 7-0. final play of the first quarter. sefo liufau with a fantastic play. refusing to go down. he won't quit. takes it in for the touchdown. so nice we'll look at it twice. game liufau and colorado would win it. we've got nfl action for you tomorrow. cardinals at atlanta. good teams don't lose two in a low. >> liufau is what you use in the shower, right? that's loofah. >> see you tomorrow.

>> ? music >> newsmaker sunday, with fox 10's john hook. >> thanks for joining us this week on "newsmaker sunday". across the country, elections are increasingly being influenced by well funded, non-profit organizations, that disclose little about their donors or how they operate. dark money. sean noble, a former aide to arizona congressman john shadegg, became one of the most important people in american politics. plucked from relative obscurity by the koch brothers, the billionaire koch brothers, he doled out a flood of political money raised by the koch network. in 2012 alone, he handed out almost 137 million in so-called "dark money". sean noble is our guest on newsmaker sunday. i appreciate you coming on. i really want to kind of peel back the curtain and let people understand what this so-called dark money is all about. thanks for being here. >> glad to be here. >> now, your relationship to the koch brothers, they've been stigmatized, certainly by the

masterful at this. basically, in the citizens united decision, the high court said, this is completely --here are the koch brothers- this is completely legal what they are doing? >> right. well, the supreme court has, once again, protected the first amendment. i mean, this is protected speech. political speech is probably one of the most important aspects of the first amendment that we could have, free speech. because, it's what allows us criticize the policies that are going on in the country,-- >> and champion your own cause. >> and champion your own cause. and you know, what is interesting is that there wasn't a big rallying cry against free speech when the liberals were the ones doing the speaking, particularly unions. unions have the so-called dark money field to themselves for decades, because they were the ones that were spending money in elections that was

until the conservative side of the aisle started to do it and union power started to dissipate that you see all of this, oh, this is terrible, we shouldn't have this. so thankfully, the supreme court reasserted the first amendment rights of citizens to speak. >> how does a guy who grows up in rural arizona end up as a, a real heavyweight distributing money from the koch brothers network? how did you end up there? i know, obviously you were with john shadegg, and you were his trusted aide and chief of staff for 14 years. i guess his time at go-pac was an entr?e? >> yeah, well, you look.. you don't get much better training in the art of politics, than from a guy like john shadegg. whose father steven shadegg actually wrote the book, how to win an election -- >> and ran barry goldwater's campaign. >> and ran barry goldwater's campaigns. and, and so, there was a great learning experience there. i spent a lot of time working in campaigns across the country. one of my favorite was, i ran tom coburn's senate race in 2004 when he ran for the

he has become a strong conservative voice in the senate, he's retiring this year. and, you know, those experiences, along with taking on the policy fights, particularly on healthcare, just gave me the experience and the knowledge to do the kinds of things that i've been doing. >> as we see the money bags in front of congress, can you win an election without a lot of dough? >> sure. ideas matter. and let me give you an example. there might have been -- some of your viewers probably remember not very long ago, just a few weeks ago, the sitting majority leader of the u.s. house, eric cantor, was beaten pretty badly in his primary against a complete no-name college professor. he spent $5 million on his campaign, the college professor spent 150,000. so it is not all about money, it's about the ideas, it's about reaching out to the people, it's about grassroots impact.

thing that people constantly say is to know who we're voting for and there is so much money, politics is awash in money. we had the billion dollar presidential campaign. you need to know who is paying, and ponying up the money, because voters want to know, who's behind them, is there a quid pro quo, do they expect favors once they get into office? we need to know who these people are. why would you argue to the opposite? >> so we have disclosure when it comes to direct contributions to the candidates. candidates who know, they go to someone, to you support me for office, they give contributions to them -- >> and that donation is limited. >> that's limited and it's disclosed. >> in a congressional race, it is how much? >> it's 2500 bucks so 5000 for both the primary and the -- >> so if i wanted to contribute to a congressional candidate, my limit is 2500. that's it. >> right. and it's disclosed. tells you where, your name, your address, where you work, what your occupation is. >> okay. >> now, i don't know how that stops corruption per se, but that's what the disclosed

and, when it comes to nondisclosed, when it comes to the money that is not disclosed because it's spent not in coordination with the candidate, but is spent outside of that. it's, i think, the supreme court made a good point, that they say, well, that's not a quid pro quo because the candidate doesn't necessarily know who's doing the spending, or why they're doing it. and in most cases -- >> and it's a conglomeration of a bunch of people. >> yes, it could be. it could be one people, one person, it could be a hundred people and the reason that that's important is because people have a right to petition grievance, to associate with other people, like-minded people and to express themselves in speech. the supreme court's ruling was speech is money, money is speech. because it takes money to be in the public sphere and my argument is there is not enough political speech in this nation. when we advertise more for automobiles in this country than we do about public policy and politics, then we clearly haven't raised the public

where we need to inject it into the american people's psyche. i think that policy discussions are very important, more important than advertising for tele - uh, for cars. >> how did you get hooked up with the koch brothers? how were you introduced? >> i, you know, one of the things, i got involved in the health care fight. when obama was elected in 2008, going into 2009, we knew that he was going to try to do some radical changes to health care, and, so i got involved with some folks, who asked me to put together a plan, and to work on, how do we stop this bill? and that got the attention of many people in the conservative movement, and that kind of became the effort that most people were focused on in late 2009 and early 2010. >> that was the center to protect patients rights? >> right, it's an organization i formed to lead the fight as a coalition effort. >> eric novak came on this program. he was part of that. doctor novak, who came on, who was just absolutely dead set against obamacare. >> and probably one of the smartest people in america on

what the solutions need to be. >> so your answer to people on dark money would be, look, if you want to fight obamacare, you need people to step up and spend money to get a message out to counter the president's message. that's bottom line. free speech. >> yes, it's free speech, and the reason that it's anonymous and needs to remain anonymous is because we have an overactive government who has proven the last two or three years, this administration will literally target people, target people and organizations that they disagree with, and that is, what the greatest fear the founders had was an overactive central government. and so now we're actually living that, so it is more important than ever that we have anonymous, non-disclosed people. >> so the logical step is that you believe the i.r.s. stuff, dealing with, trying to get to the bottom of their nonprofit status to conservative groups was targeting. >> there is no question it was targeting. i mean if, if what lois lerner was doing was not illegal, then why is she claiming the 5th?

reeks of corruption. it reeks of a cover-up. i, we have, long, we're a long, we're a long ways away from seeing the bottom of this thing. because this goes, i guarantee this goes right into the white house. this was not the i.r.s. acting alone. >> you're saying, then, what you're saying is when the president says not a smidgen of impropriety or corruption, you say - - >> the facts are completely the opposite. there's all kinds of impropriety. i mean, the fact that they conveniently lost two years worth of e-mails? i mean, we impeached a president, or were about to impeach a president, nixon, for 18 and a half minutes of tape which was a pittance compared to two years worth of e-mails that talk specifically about, what they are doing to target, to actually thwart people's 1st amendment rights. >> tell me about some of these groups you work with, they have told you these stories

government came in heavy-handed and were harassing them? >> well, harassing them, and asking questions that were just completely inappropriate. i mean, if you filed a, uh, application for 501-c4 status. and you had anything to do with- >> that's non-profit. >> that's a non-profit. a social welfare organization, the government, the i.r.s. was sending letters to these organizations saying we want to know the content of, if you pray, what your prayers are, we want to know what your literature says, we want to volunteered on someone's campaign going back the last ten years, if you donated to anybody's campaign. that is not the i.r.s.'s business when they are making a determination about an organization being a social welfare organization. >> let's get back, let's get back to this term, dark money, and i want to roll tape number 3 if we can. this wisconsin union fight over scott walker. this was steeped in all of this stuff, wasn't it? >> sure. >> tell me how. >> well, this was an example of scott walker getting

immediately instituting big reforms, reforms that would make a big difference in the state budget because they had negotiated health care plans and other retirement plans that were just way too rich. >> it was a battle against the unions. he was trying to beat the unions. >> it was a union battle. public employee unions, in particular. and he got that passed through and then the unions went crazy and they mounted a year-long recall campaign to try to push him out of office. to say, hey, we don't like what the governor is doing, we have our standing. we're going to fight the way we want to fight. >> right. >> okay, so the money comes in, pours in from the union. and then money pours in from around the country through these nonprofits. 501c - - >> 501 c4's, and c6's, up against the union 501 c5's. it's an alphabet soup. >> in the end of it, at the end of the day, with this term "dark money", is it kind of like the u.s. and the soviet union and the

other in the end? >> i would make an argument that if you look at how much money was spent by the left, obama and his pals in the presidential campaign and romney and his pals, it was pretty much equilibrium. and so, it really came down to, ultimately, what the reason romney lost the election is because he didn't relate to people. people just couldn't relate to him. and there was a few things that could have made the difference so you had this arms race bu really just this tipping point issues, right, and i think that's the way politics works. there's going to be a vigorous debate on either side but at the end of the day, people are gonna go with who they trust. >> okay, now on the republican side let me just ask you this from a tactical point of view because you have run campaigns. would the republicans be better off instead of this money from, this so-called dark money from non-profits to spend that money targeting

outreach to try to get more women to align with them? would that money be better spent in other ways, instead of just flooding campaigns with it? >> i think what you're seeing, and what you will see over the course of the next few, couple of years leading up to the 2016 election and 2020 presidential election, you're going to see nonprofits that do more outreach, non-profits that are associated with republicans and conservative causes, doing more outreach to, you know, outside their base because frankly, the republican base is growing old, it's dying off, and we as republicans need to broaden the tent a little bit and i think what you've seen some of that to date. great organizations, like libre initiative, uh, there's veterans organizations reaching out, there's women organizations reaching out and i think that is important to helping people understand that ultimately conservative principles are what's best for this nation. >> your new group is american encore, correct? >> yes. >> we're gonna find out what that's all about with sean noble,

on dark money in politics. when we come back, how sean noble got in a little trouble over this stuff and where he is right now in his career. back in a moment on newsmaker sunday. >> ? music

>> ? music >> back on "newsmaker sunday" with the so-called dark money man, sean noble, he was connected to the koch brothers, and distributed millions during campaign cycles in 2010 and 2012. that term dark money man, does that tick you off? do you object? >> well, i think the left, and in general, people who oppose those kinds of ideas use it as a pejorative. um, i mean it is a 1st amendment right and you know, i don't like the term but it's what people call it. >> if you're with somebody on an airplane, and they say, oh, my name's bill. what do you do, sean? what would you tell them? >> i'd tell them that i advise non-profit organizations. i do political consulting and i run a nonprofit

freedom, the free enterprise system, to make america great again. >> and let's be clear, you don't raise the money, you just distribute the money from people who want to donate to nonprofits that see the world their way. >> right, there's a great number of patriotic americans that see this country as something that is great. they see that there are parts of this country slipping and they know that america's best days can be in the future, and so they want to see resurgence of the american exceptionalism. >> i've got to ask you this. in 2012, there were even polls that showed that romney was going to beat obama. how is it that a wealthy guy like romney with backing from the koch brothers as well, and other big-money interests can't beat the president who had some issues, but they killed republicans on tactics, use of the internet, use of fundraising that way, use of grass roots, getting out to

voters to vote. how does that happen? >> the two, the two most important components are, what i've said before is, barack obama could have unplugged all of his social media, his digital, all his technology, use paper walk books and still beat romney. >> why? >> because he had a huge number of people on the ground. the most important thing in politics is that personal touch and they did a great job of spending four years leading up to his re-election of putting people on the ground, building those relationships in the most important places. extended primary season and a shortened general season just didn't have the -- >> that's gonna change next time around, cause cleveland's gonna have their republican convention in june maybe. >> right. >> and the other aspect was we did an election night and the day after election poll of swing voters who made their decision late and we said word or phrase to describe barack obama and they said disappointed, disappointing

he wasn't living up to what they expected. so i thought, well, if they are disappointed, then obviously why didn't that happen? when we asked a word or phrase to describe romney, they said liar. that was the, we did a word cloud, and liar -- >> liar? >> and the message the barack obama campaign was pushing was that he was a liar, couldn't be trusted and ultimately in elections, who you trust or who you may not trust is the most important -- >> five seconds, does romney make a comeback and try to run again? >> i think that is a possibility. >> i do too, as well. >> i'd be open to that. >> okay, sean noble, great to see you. best of luck in the future, i know it's been a tumultuous four years, but wish you the best. >> john, thank you. thank you. >> thanks for joining us on "newsmaker sunday".

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