gave an opinion of the injuries are highly suggestive of a struggle and ruled it a homicide. >> reporter: homicide, and there was only one suspect. in april of 2013, 15 months after emily died, alex fazzino was arrested and charged with his wife's murder. >> they said, "you're under arrest." and, i was in complete shock. when you're innocent you don't think it can happen. you think they're gonna come to their senses, they're gonna see it. but, no. >> reporter: he spent three weeks in jail before being released on bond. >> truth will come out. >> reporter: alex's sister, marguerite says her brother was charged with murder because of small town politics. >> what was it that you think kept the state sort of moving forward with -- with the idea of prosecuting? >> well, i think it was the beckwiths. i think the power that they have

prosecute this. >> the suggestion that there was some sort of political pressure that was put on my office to push this case forward or to charge it is absolute nonsense. it didn't happen. >> reporter: as alex waited for trial, things got worse. his 5-year-old daughter coco was diagnosed with cancer and underwent a bone marrow transplant. >> his daughter's illness took a huge toll on our family i will say this about my son. i saw him as very strong. you know, he was handling things that i don't think most people could. >> reporter: it had taken four years after his wife's death, but finally alex fazzino went on trial for her murder. >> please rise. >> reporter: because of pre-trial publicity and the high profile beckwith name, the case was moved out of boone, 200 miles away to decorah, iowa.

beckwiths were now separated by much more than the courtroom aisle. the prosecutor told the jury, that after a deteriorating relationship and with divorce papers filed, alex lost it that night, and killed his wife. >> alex had everything to gain by emily's death. and he had everything to lose by emily being alive. alex would lose his kids, would lose his job. would lose his house. divorce. >> reporter: the state started its case using alex's own words. >> help! help! oh, my god! >> 911. what is the location of your emergency? >> help, help, help. >> reporter: prosecutors said this wasn't grief, it was remorse. >> in that initial 911 call, alex sounds pretty genuinely traumatized to me. he doesn't sound like somebody who was faking it. >> part of the argument to -- to

murder. >> what we're hearing is his horror at having just committed a murder of someone who is close to him? >> that would be a way to characterize it, yes. >> reporter: prosecutors claimed that in that 911 call, alex had already concocted a story that emily committed suicide or died from a drug overdose. >> my wife's killed herself. my wife's killed herself. please help me. >> who? >> reporter: even at that police interview a few hours later, prosecutors said alex was had somehow overdosed. >> maybe she didn't kill herself. maybe it was an accident. >> reporter: then the prosecution called the state medical examiner to tell jurors about that key piece of evidence, the toxicology report. >> did you also have testing done on body fluids and blood that had been taken from emily

toxicology tests. >> reporter: she told the jury emily had no drugs in her system that would have killed her. >> the drug tests were -- that were done did not show opiates in her system at all. >> reporter: you think it didn't play a role? >> i don't think it played a role that night. >> reporter: and even though she'd initially ruled the cause of death undetermined, the state medical examiner had a surprising change of heart on the witness stand. >> which manner of death do you favor over the others? >> in this case i'm much more strongly leaning toward homicide than any of the other manners of death. >> reporter: and that second pathologist said there was no doubt about his conclusion. >> bruises, front, back, left, and right of the head, would be consistent with a homicide. bruises along the side of the windpipe and larynx would be consistent with a homicide. >> reporter: murder by strangulation. prosecutors now called family and friends to testify that emily felt threatened by her husband. her sister, ammie.

to her death? >> sad. >> why was emily fazzino sad, do you know? >> cause she wanted, she wanted to get away from alex. >> reporter: the children's nanny also recounted a conversation with emily just before her death. >> i asked emily two questions. the first one was if she was scared of alex. >> what was emily's response? >> her response was yes. >> what was the second one? >> i had asked her ie worried that alex would harm her or kill her. >> what was emily's response? >> she nodded her head yes. >> reporter: less than a week later, emily fazzino was dead. prosecutors said there was only one conclusion -- alex murdered his wife. >> the only explanation here after looking at all the evidence, all the circumstances, is that the head injuries were inflicted, and who would've done that.

>> reporter: now it was the defense's turn. this was to be a trial of two emilys. coming up -- >> did you drink a lot tonight? >> no, i had three cocktails. >> reporter: the surprise evidence alex had up his sleeve. >> why -- why -- why does it matter? what'd you do today? >> emily, under the influence? when "dateline" continues. let's feed him to the sharks! squuuuack, let's feed him to the sharks! yay! and take all of his gold! and take all of his gold! ya! and hide it from the crew! ya...? squuuuack, they're all morons anyway! i never said that. they all smell bad too. no! you all smell wonderful! i smell bad! if you're a parrot, you repeat things. it's what you do. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. it's what you do. squuuuack, it's what you do.

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>> reporter: by this time, the love that had once joined the beckwith and fazzino families was long gone. in an iowa courtroom, both families had listened for a week. >> alex fazzino murdered emily fazzino on january 29. >> reporter: as prosecutors painted alex fazzino as a monster who brutally killed his wife in a fit of rage. >> i gotta ask you this straight out. did you play any role in killing your wife? >> physically, no. i mean i, i'll always feel a little responsible that i couldn't get through to anybody to get her help. and i'll carry that with me for all of my life. >> reporter: defense lawyers,

all. >> this case should have never been prosecuted. >> that was where you came down right, was from the beginning, was that the case shouldn't have been brought? >> absolutely not. i took that position because of the lack of evidence. alex fazzino was totally innocent. >> there's no more pressure than when you -- if you have an innocent person that you're trying to defend on this kind of a charge, first-degree murder. >> reporter: kutmus says that from the beginning, prosecutors targeted alex and refused to consider anything else. >> they reviewed all the reports, everything associated with her death. they concluded, "we don't know what the cause of death is. we don't know the manner of death." and what happened almost a year and a half later, the state finds some guy from sioux falls, south dakota, a pathologist who said that the manner of death was -- was a homicide. they found this person. >> reporter: kutmus stated his case to the jury. >> emily fazzino passed away as a result of an accidental drowning.

addiction. >> reporter: he said the only crime was that emily never received the help she needed. the defense called emily's mother to the stand to show that detox at her house was at best amateur hour. >> you have no certificate or any license. >> no, i don't. >> are you telling this jury that you know all the subtleties of withdrawal? >> absolutely not. >> reporter: kutmus tried to cast doubt on the claim that emily had gotten completely n >> were you in denial at that time about your daughter's condition is this -- about your daughter's condition? >> absolutely not. >> reporter: to drive home that point, the defense called witnesses who say they saw signs emily was still abusing those pain pills and alcohol in the weeks before she died. one of them was alex's mother. >> she was argumentative. agitated and she didn't really seem to comprehend sometimes

>> reporter: signs, the defense said, that are evident in this video. >> what did you do today? >> well -- >> reporter: it was a facetime call alex said he recorded less than two weeks before emily died. >> i got, i can't, i don't know. why, why, why does it matter, what'd you today -- >> what? >> why'd you record that facetime call? >> to ensure i'd get custody of the kids in a divorce. >> you wanted proof that emily >> right. it's hard to argue with what's plain to see on video. >> did you drink a lot tonight? >> no. i had three cocktails. >> reporter: the defense theory? just before she died, knowing she was facing a child custody battle and would be tested -- emily took herself off the drugs one final time. >> she goes cold turkey. what happens? it's clear. withdrawal happens two or three days later.

seizures, fainting, dizziness, unsteadiness, weakness. she could've fallen in that bathtub. unable to even lift herself up. >> and that also explains why there weren't any of those drugs found in her system? >> correct. >> exactly. >> reporter: could emily fazzino have simply drowned accidentally in the tub? alex's attorneys were hoping to plant that thought in the minds of the jurors, but what about those bruises? they called their own pathologist who said he didn't w >> do you know any determination where they could conclude how that particular injury occurred. >> no, sir. it's unknown to them and to me, unlike the tv shows you can't just look at that and tell exactly how it happened. >> reporter: no expert, they argued, could say for certain that that there had even been a murder. >> i do not know the cause of death, i do not know the manner of death. that's not an intellectual failure, that's intellectual

that even the state's own m.e., dr. catellier, had come to the same conclusion in her original report. the cause of death, undetermined. >> well is there anything in dr. catalier's original autopsy report, that you take issue or disagree with? >> no sir, i actually agree with it wholeheartedly. >> at trial, dr. catalier testified that she favors homicide. would you agree with that? >> no sir, i would respectfully disagree witth >> reporter: the defense conclusion, it wasn't alex who killed emily, it was what was in those pill bottles. >> this is the marital issue. this is what he screamed about, and he howled about. but no one would listen. do justice to alex fazzino. find him not guilty. >> reporter: jurors would now have to decide if alex fazzino was a killer, or a wrongly accused husband who had tried

>> reporter: coming up -- >> you prepared for a guilty verdict? >> yeah. >> reporter: two families on edge. four years of questions. >> reporter: and the verdict --

>> reporter: four years after emily fazzino's death, her husband's fate was finally in the hands of a jury. alex says he was confident during the nearly three-week trial but says doubt crept in

you prepared for a guilty verdict? >> yeah. i wrote a note to my children. >> reporter: what's it say? >> nick, ricky, and coco, i loved your mother, and i never hurt her. i would never leave you. like your mom is always in your heart, i will be, too. you kids are the light of my life. all my love, now and forever, dad. >> reporter: the first day, the jury went home without a verdict. as the hours ticked by the next morning, still nothing from the jury. in the afternoon, alex got a phone call. the jury had reached a decision. >> when they called me and said the jury's in, i could barely breathe. >> reporter: emily's family and friends rushed to the courthouse. prosecutors were confident. >> we did the best that we could in putting on the evidence that we had and -- and -- hopefully the jury would see it our way and convict him. >> reporter: the defense attorneys were confident as

we had the experts. >> but -- but you never know. >> but you never know. >> good luck, honey. i love you. >> i don't need luck, dad. >> reporter: both sides couldn't be any more raw, or more on edge. alex was facing life in prison. and finally, after four long years -- >> is this the verdict of each and every one of the members of the jury? >> reporter: -- here it was. >> in the matter of the state of iowa plaintiff versus alexander joseph fazzino. we the jury find the defendant not guilty. [ cheers ] >> thank you, lord! >> reporter: not guilty. the words alex and his family had been waiting to hear. even his veteran defense attorneys couldn't hold it together. >> i held off crying until bill started crying. >> yeah. >> he -- he started it. and that's what sent me over the edge. >> reporter: and -- one never cries if you think your client's guilty. >> no. >> you don't.

>> reporter: on the other side of the courtroom, emily's family and friends could barely move. with the verdict, the divide between these two families became complete. >> thank you so much. >> reporter: the celebration across the aisle became too much for emily's mother to take. >> shut up, shut up! i went in shock. alls i can remember is -- people jumping up and down like cheerleaders. that i told 'em to shut up. >> reporter: as they left the courtroom, the reality of what had happened sank in. back inside, alex says felt he far from victorious. >> there's not much to be excited about. emily is still gone. and -- my kids don't have their mother. i felt completely unchanged. i was innocent when i walked in the courtroom and i'm innocent

high five about? >> reporter: you know there are people that are never gonna believe you're innocent? >> yeah. i'm very aware. >> reporter: you're okay with that. >> i'm not okay with it. i can't let it bother me. i'm not gonna let what somebody says keep me from holding my head up high. >> reporter: emily's parents are among those who still believe in alex's guilt. but strangely enough, something that sounded like acceptance crept into our conversation. >> this isn't easy for me to say, i hope that the rest of his life he spends -- doing as much as he possibly can for his children. we don't have bitterness inside. >> or hate. >> or hate. he was found innocent. it's over. we're walking down the -- the road of life. >> reporter: their granddaughter

this year, she turned 7 years old, cancer-free. but alex says big moments like these will forever be tinged with sadness. >> graduating from kindergarten, my son's first big hit. every one of those moments for me, it's not the happiest because emily's not there. she's not there for -- for them and for me. to share in it. it'sit that's all for now. i'm lester holt. thanks for joining us. this sunday, trump 3.0. donald trump's evolving positions on immigration.

undocumented immigrants? >> there certainly can be a softens because we're not looking to hurt people. >> or is he still for it? >> there is no path to legalization, unless people leave the ountry. >> or is he not sure? we'll ask the head of the rns reince priebus and the clinton foundation under fire amid pay for play accusations. if hillary clinton wins, will that foundation need to be shut down? finally, the toxic state ofhis campaign. t continued pushing discredited conspiracy theories with racist under tones. >> hillary clinton is a bigot who sees people of color only as voters. >> and what voters think of it. >> rotten eggs. >> skunk. >> garbage. >> joining me this sunday morning are andrea mitchell, nbc

correspondent. hugh hewitt and joy reid. welcome to sunday, it's "meet the press". >> announcer: from nbc news in washington this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning and we're happy to be back after a break for the olympics. how about team usa? worth the break to watch them dominate. let's state the obvious. it hasn't been a good week for either presidential candidate frankly or for the a week that reagan with donald trump revamping ending with him stating immigration and another and back on. the evolving do deport, don't deport statements confused the public and left his staff tongue tied at times. at the same time, the fbi discovered some 15,000 new clinton state department e-mails that will be released starting next month guaranteeing that issue will follow hillary clinton through the end of this

charges and calls for the clinton's to distance themselves further from the foundation if hillary clinton wins the presidency and candidates called each other names in a nasty and negative campaign that appears to be turning voters off. we'll see what that means down the road. but we begin with donald trump's ham-handed efforts to find a middle ground on deportation. was he for it before he was against it or a little bit of to explain again. >> all the media wants to talk about is the 11 million people. >> after a week in an attempt to moderate immigration turned into a muddle. >> there certainly can be a softening because we're not looking to hurt people. >> i heard people say it's a harden hardening. >> monday, trump appeared to defend tpresident obama's polic. >> lots of people were brought

laws. >> as the week went on, his position multiplied. >> they have to pay back taxes. they have to pay taxes. there is no amnesty, as such. there is no amnesty. >> there is no path to legalization. >> we talked about -- >> unless people leave the country. >> trump even polled a town hall audience. >> number one we'll see throw out. number two, we work with them. ready? number two. [ cheers ] >> who knew that it would be donald trump? [ laughter ] >> to come and convert the gop base. >> trump's latest confusion may be an attempt to soften his image without alienating long-time supporters n. march more than half of trump supporters opposed allowing immigrants to stay in the

certain requirements but 74% of voters overall supported eventual actual legal status. >> trump's positions on immigration is like shaking a magic eight ball. half the time it comes up and says shake again. it's reflecting what positions ought to be. >> a former editor at large, the national's right-leaning website and critic of steve ban none. the long-time char main trump hired to run the flagging campaign. >> if the polls continue to not be good, then i surprised to see him start edging out other members of the team by saying he's been telling trump all along he should do what he feels is in his heart. >> he's making the influence felt about clinton's health. >> i'm not saying she's had a stroke or anything like that but this is not the woman that we're used to seeing. >> she doesn't have the stamina to do it even if she wanted to, believe me. >> well, joining me now is the chairman of the republican party reince priebus.

let's start with immigration. a month ago you predicted in an interview with the "washington examiner" what is his position specifically on the immigrants? >> you'll see he's giving prepared remarks on the issue i think very soon. i don't want to give a date. i think -- let me. >> we don't know? i mean thanks is sort of remarkable we don't know. >> i don't speak for donald trump. that's what i do here is what i know. his position will be tough. his position will be fair, but his position is going to be humane. he's going to build and complete the border wall that was set in place in 2006 by congress. it's going to be paid for. i believe that he is going to when he talks about deportation, he'll go after people here and are criminals and shouldn't be here. >> who is a criminal under this circumstance, though? some people believe just being here illegally is a crime.

criminal. does that count? >> well, look, those are the things that donald trump is going to answer, and this is not obviously a simple question. these are not simple issues. if they were simple, obviously, the position -- >> simplified it a lot during the primaries some would argue over simplified it. >> he did simplify it. now he's reflecting on it and his position is going to be null. here is the thing, the part about what -- where donald trump is on this, is he's a guywh issue, tougher on illegal immigration than any politician we've had as a nominee or ever could have as a nominee. that's not going to change. he's going to be a law and order candidate, he is. and a law and order president. >> do you agree with some of the analysis that says this is jeb bush's policy? >> i don't. i don't think you're going to

>> bush's plan provided an easier plan. >> the gang of eight was an easier plan to legalization, an easier plan to citizen ship. you're not going to have a pathway to citizen ship with donald trump. that's off the table. there is no method by which someone is here illegally that is going to become a citizen and jump the line as hillary clinton wants to do. i mean, the real issue is look at the two plans. look where hillary clinton is. she wants to put barack obama's gr are here illegally to cut the line before anyone else. >> donald trump praised parts of barack obama's immigration. >> parts of it. >> as far as deportation. >> parts of it but not illegal immigrants jumping the line like hillary clinton wants to do. that's the issuemen. the issue is this is an election of choices. one, allow everyone in through complete amnesty or number two,

human. >> citizen ship is still on donald trump's plan. >> you'll have to ask him. >> where is the republican party on this? do you think that should be something that should be the position of the republican party? >> no, i believe in the interpretation of the supreme court on the issue. >> so you're comfortable with birthright citizen ship? >> i'm comfortable with it. i'm comfortable with it. i'm comfortable with the supreme court rulings on the issue. >> so your advice to him would be don't be touching birthright >> a nominee is not -- does not have the -- doesn't have to adopt every single position and platform position of the republican party. if -- we're talking about and what my opinion is on birthright citizen ship does not necessarily have to be adopted by a nominee. my exact view of immigration and

nominee. >> let me ask you this, in the infamous 2013 autopsy, this is what was written in it. if hispanic americans perceive a gop nominee or candidate does not want them in the united states, i.e. self-deportation, they will not pay attention to the next sentence. do you think donald trump understands this analysis? >> i think he understands it completely. i think -- >> is that what this evolution is about? >> you know what? i don't know -- when you say what the evolution is about, at every position that it's taken and as you get closer to the white house, a degree of hum humanity and decency is part of every decision needs to be made. i know donald trump in private. i talk to him every day. i know what he's thinking about the issues and this is a good and descent man that wants to do the right thing and take every position he's talking about and

and human tar. >> let's talk about race. donald trump called hillary clinton a bigot this week. do you think she is? >> you have to look at people's actions. you look at donald trump and his actions and developing and promoting women and breaking a mold, which today we think is nuts but 40 years ago broke the mold in allowing anyone with any br background, any faith, you look at hillary clinton. she labeled african super predators. her campaign and supporters in her campaign were the ones that the birther movement. it was bill clinton and her campaign in 2008 that questioned the success of barack obama, not based on his talent, but based on his race. it was their campaign. why can't we start judging these people based on what they actually did? she gave out state secrets.

that's unacceptable. >> this week's new york times outline what trump and his father may have done when it comes to basically keeping african americans -- >> may have done. this is the issue. this is what he may have done. >> if you look at what he's done as a developer, and putting together golf courses, these clubs, the things he's been doing for the last several decades, he has broken the mold when it comes to this issue, and i can tell you where his heart is a >> one of the things he said, he said hillary clinton only views african americans as votes. not as human beings and this is what he tweeted out yesterday morning after the tragedy about dwayne wade, former heat, chicago bull whose cousin was shot and killed in chicago. dwayne wade's cousin was shot and killed walking her baby in chicago. what i've been saying, african americans will in all caps vote trump. appropriate?

frustrated with. democrats, i think, have been taking advantage of this vote and providing very little leadership to get things done in urban areas across america. i worked in wisconsin for tommy thompson when the first private school choice bill was put together. it was democrats out of the cities, democrats in the power base of their party that fought school choice across the state of wisconsin. and to me, i at leadership in the cities, it's education reform, it's freeing up sba loans. these are things our party is champing and he says that and it's frustrating to see that the democrats go into these cities, i think take advantage of the vote and provide very little leadership in return. >> are you happy with the hires? >> look, i go with the flow,

i think kelly ann is doing a phenomenal job. i don't know steve bannon. >> we're learning his background and some of it -- is this the proper background that donald trump should be hiring if he's trying to appeal to women for instance? >> i don't know how much of it is true or not, neither do you. i don't speculate based on what other third parties say about people. i tend to judge people on what i see and interact with. >> one final question when it comes to theis clinton foundation and tax returns. i want to ask it this way. donald trump has been hitting her hard and saying all sorts of behind the scenes, pay for play allegations. does he have -- does it under cut the message if he doesn't release tax returns? would he have higher ground here and criticizing clinton's finances if we saw his tax returns? >> i don't think so. >> roger stone is the latest republican to call for donald trump to release the tax returns a close friend of trump's? >> i don't think so.

clinton has done -- when voters look at what hillary clinton actually did, they see somebody that they believe broke the law. they see somebody who gave away state secrets and see somebody that went out of her way -- >> donald trump -- >> but you're judging -- >> we don't know. that's the point. >> but do you think -- >> let me ask you, if we don't know -- >> we know hillary clinton shouldn't be trusted with national secrets and with the most precious -- the most precious information that our country has in their hands. we know she can't are you equating that the known -- >> wait -- >> conclusion that she can't be trusted with state secrets to what could be in donald trump's taxes? >> we've had a history of every major nominee releasing their tax returns reince -- >> i'm not suggesting -- >> i'm -- >> he's a private businessman whose companies may or may not benefit from him being president. that's something voters should want to know. >> i'm not suggesting it's a subject good journalist don't

i'm suggesting it's preposterous. >> to equate -- >> someone we know gave away -- >> you're making an assumption. we don't know. >> we do know. c cow me said -- the. >> vulnerability. >> james comey laid out the case for gross negligence. >> we don't know factually. you don't have the smoking gun. >> you're telling me we don't have a smokin we know that confidential top secret e-mails were part of the information that was put in a private secret server. we know that to be the case. you're equating that knowledge to the possibility of maybe something isn't right in a tax return that we don't know about? come on. >> okay. reince priebus, i'll leave it there. good luck. >> it's been a good two weeks for donald trump and it's been a bad two weeks for hillary clinton. >> we'll let the panel assess

the panel is here. hugh hewitt, andrea mitchell. robert costa and joy reid. all right. costa, i'm going to put it to you. that question, a good two weeks for trump and bad for clinton. >> coming in trying to get populism back on track for trump and getting trump more disciplined in the message but this is a candidate uncomfortable stay something on script. we'll have to see how long it lasts. >> has he immigration or not, hugh? >> new york city i think he helped himself a lot to bring more humanity. it was a terrible two weeks. i think what we will hear, eight letters fara, fcpa. in trouble on the two complex laws. >> andrea, where are you on this?

it a little bit less controversial, if you will, on deportation but he has to venn actually be more specific on the debate, let's say. on the law, go back to what cow comey said, he said over and over again -- and in the letter he sent to the committee afterwards he finds no basis for prosecution. and that has to be the bottom line. >> in the last part that chairman priebus and i were going back and f that people have with the clinton foundation and what we don't know about trump's businesses, is this equal or not? >> not even close to being equal. one of the things that is interesting is we discovered one of the few things we have been able to find out is how much money he owes to foreign banks. those questions are not going away. i think the american people as

have a right to know. one of the concerns a lot of demod democratic strategists have had, donald trump has done more to energize after condition americans against him in the last two weeks of out reach than hillary clinton has done in a year. >> by the way, the steve bannon. >> what did you make of that? >> tells me there is concern -- >> i will say this, for every coulter there is more. there is a reflection. >> the roger stone. >> i'll say there isn't somebody with connections to white nationalism in that group you mentioned except steve bannon and that's a significant problem for the trump campaign. >> the trump campaign is in new jersey. i've been covering bannon for five or six years. he's done zero press appearances. he has conway.

you hear it. >> i was very -- we're finding out. >> that was a tell to me, sounds like if the chairman had his preference. >> kelly ann conway is a great face for the campaign. steve bannon is not. >> we'll be back in a moment to talk about the other person that had a rough week. hillary clinton. 15,000 new e-mails operated on a pay for play paybasis and we tad about the ugliness of the ugly moment earlier this week. take a listen. >> i would like to talk to you about your comments about my being a racist you [ bleep ]. >> that voice mail message left by maine governor paul lepage is just the latest example of a race to the bottom. maybe by too many politicians and it's something that has a and it's something that has a lot of voters welcome to the world 2116, you can fly across town in minutes

in less than a century, boeing took the world from seaplanes to space planes, across the universe and beyond. and if you thought that was amazing, you just wait.

welcome back. turning to a week we saw hillary clinton answering questions about e-mails and pay for play or at least a pay for access. eight years ago after barack obama was first elected, members of his team expressed concerns about the foundation as clinton was tapped as secretary of state. joining me now to talk about

of 2008 campaigns. welcome back to the show. >> good morning, chuck. >> i know you were not involved in the transition negotiations at the time but there was definitely concern about the appearance of a clinton as secretary of state and another clinton raising money from foreign entities at a private foundation. do you believe that the clintons upheld their end of the bargain when it came to the memo of the understanding that was signed by thte i think you have to stack back-check. the clinton foundation, it's universal agreement has done remarkable work around the world. i think donald trump contributed $100,000 to the foundation. the work it's done around aids and malaria, i think they will answer that by saying bill clinton will step down but again, if you look at this from a campaign perspective, you've got the foundation and you've

amazing to me, of all the things donald trump has done and a hall of fame of unforced errors that hurt candidacy, the thing he's most concerned about is what is in the tax returns and business dealings. his foreign policy is basically centered around attacks on china. he probably has hundreds of millions of dollars of exposure there. fondness for vladimir putin. there is legitimate questions october the clinton foundation and presses clearly spending a lot of time on that but if you of who can you trust and financial dealings, there is not much of a comparison. >> let me go back to the clinton foundation. why what was okay at state not okay as president? and it makes you wonder like why didn't -- why wasn't there thought of former president bill clinton stepping down from the foundation eight years ago? >> listen, i think there is a lot of transparency and a great deal obviously, releasing of donors and information being

by the way, i'm glad they are not falling into the drop of shutting down the clinton foundation. >> why is that? >> the clinton foundation does remarkable work all around the world and i think as long as there is the right transparency, right accountability and those procedures are clear to the public, i think it's a huge at butte and contribution to the world. >> isn't it a concern, though, if you're at the clinton foundation and you're a mayor donor, isn't it a concern now if you're a donor considering how much of a political hot potato it could be, doesn't it undermine the clinton foundation efforts because of the political nature of things involving it? >> i don't think so. if you're someone that cares about the work the clinton foundation is doing around the world. you're going to be very, very passionate about continuing the work going forward and people will intensify because i think at the end of the day, these are political attacks. i get we're in a political season. it's undeniable.

addition to the global scene. >> i guess the issue has to do with the purchasing of access. which is legal. supreme court said it is essentially legal to buy access of a politician within reason. not to get something in return, beyond access, but is that really the problem? the fact that that is legal that essentially a lot of people do expect access in return for a contribution? >> well, my strong belief is i don't think people gave to the clinton foundation expecting access. melinda gates, mohammed. you got people, very wealthy people who care about the work of the clinton foundation. >> what about the government of qatar? are they looking for? >> secretary of state wills meet with leaders around the world. you do that anyway over the course of business. >> i want to ask about the race in general. the last time you were on, you expressed concern that hillary

places like virginia and colorado. well, it's the first two states that essentially the campaign pulled out of because they think they have put the campaign away. how did you miss that? why did you miss read those two states in particular? >> those are two tough states. they were uniquely suited to barack obama so when we had that conversation, i think the assessment is donald trump would do some things to appeal to the middle of the he's not. basically have a psychopath running for president. he meets the clinical definition -- >> wait a minute. do you really think -- diagnosing people on air and i assume you don't have a degree in psychology, is that fair? i mean -- >> well -- >> we're jumping to conclusions here. i think this is what gets voters frustrated with this kind of thing. >> listen. he -- the notion of self-worth, pathological lying.

psychology but here is -- chuck, basically the race sits today. i think hillary clinton is guaranteed at least 269 electoral votes because virginia and colorado both campaigns are away. >> >> at the end of the day 20% chance it's close three points and likely going to be a landslide. and donald trump has less than and in florida, states of ohio, nevada have the advantage. suburban and improve younger voters. >> prepping for donald trump

something like that? >> well, it's a great question. i think, it is going to be difficult because you have to prepare for many different trumps, like well behaved modest tr trump. a trump that doesn't prepare for anything. i think the job of preparing for trump is difficult. you have to have somebody that can play it's pface nating. >> you were in the white house dealing with politics of obama care for years. these are headlines in the last couple weeks, washington post won is the one i want to emphasize, health care exchange signups fall short of forecast, literally, one half of what was projected at this point in time on signups, let me ask you this, how concerned are you that ocho b obamacare could implode? it's not been a good year for

you got to step back. you had millions and millions of americans with health care coverage. health care costs obviously have been on a descent trajectory. so in terms of overall health care costs for the country. what will happen after this election, though, is obviously you'll have the space to say okay, what is working well and almost all of it is. what needs to be strengthened. you'll see a lot of republican governors acre aep there is no doubt over time you'll step back and say what needs to be adjusted? >> given the insurance companies bailing on a public option now a mistake? >> i think the president spoke recently about that, that he -- i don't think you could get a public option passed. that wasn't going to get pasted. we barely passed it. at the end of the day the president spoke and that's part of the solution going forward. >> always a pleasure. you got it.

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back with the panel. before we get into the clinton foundation stuff. while i was interviewing reince priebus. mike pence was on cnn and said let's be clear, nothing has changed. his position on illegal information, illegal immigration, principals and policies are absolutely consistent and actually thanks reminded me of something a spokesperson for the trump campaign christina pearson said. let me play it and let's talk about it. >> he hasn't changed his position on immigration. he changed words he is saying. what he has always said from the beginning -- [ laughter ] >> no, that he does not want to allow people to stay in this country illegally. >> look, priebused a bitted he changed his position and what he said in the primaries is different, hugh.

rhetorical games here? >> that's the north star he cannot depart and will not. he's always been ambiguous on touch back. who knows what that meant. >> we have robert costa here reporting to the washington post that donald trump tends to reflect the words of the last person that spoke to him and you can see the disconnect that he literally says it's a softening and got uncomfortable with the word softening and said it's a hard and incredibly durable and strong wall and i think donald trump has not thought deeply about policy but reflecting whoever is nearest to him or the crowd cheering. >> it's the crowd that's cheering. it's the push back and it -- you saw the most blatant example he did a poll and said to the crowd at the hannity town hall what do you want? do you want to deport them all or not? is it? it's like the roman circus. thumbs up, thumbs down. he's reacting and there is a

>> kelly ann -- >> you got to think about trump as someone surrounded by an orbit. you got roger ailes there and laura ingraham and steve ban in there and kelly ann conway and the family worried about the brand for trump. you have all these voices and trump doesn't have a populace core. that's not who he is. this crucial trunk tour is bg flooded with advice. >> the businessman in him probably is why he keeps gravitating toward middle ground because ultimately, middle ground is where he's comfortable. >> i should point out kelly ann said roger ailes was not at that meeting. there was is a disconnect there. she said she's not been at a meeting roger ails is a friend and advisor. >> ails may have been not in that same -- >> the question i think that voters could rightly ask then,