the state of montana had made a solid and much delayed case that brian laird killed his wife. so what could defense attorneys matthew wald and sandy selby possibly do to counter that? well, as it turned out, a >> the evidence will not show proof that any witness saw brian laird physically harm kathryn that night. any witness who heard more than the verbal argument that brian had already admitted to. any evidence of incapacitating injury to kathryn prior to her drowning. >> why, they asked, did it take the state so long to come up with a case at all? and why did those witnesses never come forward until the fbi finally tracked them down?

saw brian hitting his wife with a bag of cookies? >> you never reached out to agent jackson from the fbi to say, hey, i've got some information about brian laird chasing his wife. >> i had no clue that the fbi was involved. i thought it was just a drowning at that point. >> and the state's star witness who supposedly heard such a deadly argument? well, although his wife thought brian laird might have been the man they saw driving away later that night, he had no idea who was at the wheel. >> were you able to get any further description of this individual that you say you saw driving this white vehicle? >> i have no more to add. >> as for the terrible row he supposedly heard between brian and kathryn -- >> you never thought that it was necessary to pick up the telephone and call the cops, did you, to intervene in any way? >> i did not have any interest in calling anytime.

problem next door. it wasn't my concern. >> but didn't the neighbors know full well that kathryn's family was asking around, desperately, for that very information? >> do you remember seeing any posters, seeking any information regarding ms. laird's death? >> yes. >> did you ever make contact with this person seeking this information? >> no. >> did you provide the information that they were requesting to anybody? >> no. >> as for the state's limited forensic evidence provided by the botanist, that man had no way of knowing, said the defense, whether those particular grasses were even growing there all those years ago. >> you can't tell the jury that you know how exactly those grasses were distributed in 1999, can you? >> no.

was. dr. thomas bennett. one of the two medical examiners who autopsied kathryn. the other had since died. >> i've probably performed over 12,000 forensic autopsies in my career. >> and, imagine this. after reconsidering his original report, in which the cause of kathryn's death was ruled undetermined, he could now say for certain it was not a homicide. >> did you see any forc evidence that she was assaulted? >> in my opinion, i did not see any injuries that i would opine were the result of an assault. i did not feel she was assaulted. >> those bruises he'd noted in his own autopsy? he now realized there was a very simple explanation. >> there is no indication that she was alive when any of those bruises occurred.

embalming. >> so how did she die? the doctor's answer was a torpedo into the belly of the prosecution's case. >> well, in my opinion ms. laird clearly died of freshwater drowning. i found no evidence, forensic evidence, that indicated that ms. laird died at the hands of another. >> brian laird didn't murder kathryn, because it wasn't a murder at all. so kathryn's family was floored. >> i was very upset. i thought at that point we'd probably lost the case. >> yeah. >> i was pretty much distraught. >> in his closing, defense attorney wald drilled in the message. >> so the state ended their case after showing you nothing. and we provide the one guy that actually did the autopsy the second time and had knowledge on the case.

certainty, that death was caused by criminal means. >> the jury retired to deliberate. they were out for five hours when word came, a verdict had been reached. >> please give the verdict to the bailiff. >> i was shaking like i have never done in my life. my brother had one hand, i had my other hand with my mom and actually john teling was holding it, too, our fbi agent. >> in the charge of deliberate homicide, guilty. >> guilty. listening for that one word. and i heard it. >> what happened to you then? >> all of us started crying. hugging each other. >> it was wonderful. it was a -- it was a feeling that justice had been served. fairness, finally. they could at least have an

>> not long after the verdict, kathryn's brother thomas died of a heart attack. a broken heart? and then last month kathryn's three months after the trial, kathryn's surviving family was back in the courthouse. it was judgment day for brian laird. her sister spoke. >> i couldn't pick up the phone we were best friends. >> and her mother, who'd learned the meaning of sorrow. >> she was beautiful and happy. he took it all away. he didn't have to do that. he could have let her come home and have her life. >> mr. laird? >> and then a pall over the courtroom as the judge turned to brian laird. >> do you wish to make a statement? >> yes, your honor. i did not do this, your honor.

died. i loved her and miss her more than anyone could ever know. thank you. >> the judge delivered his sentence. >> you are committed to the custody of the montana state prison for a term of 100 years, none of which is suspended. >> an impassive brian laird was manacled and led away. even if justice was done, for the survivors it nevnd >> it's kind of anti-climactic. you've waited 17 years for this. he's guilty. it's done. i still don't have my sister back. >> i wonder if there's something in our brains that in spite of ourselves we have to have a fantasy that if we can get justice, somehow she'll come walking back into the room. >> that would be amazing, wouldn't it?

worked. >> that's all for this edition now. i'm lester holt. thanks for joining us. this sunday, president-elect trump's administration begins to take shape. general mike flynn, senator jeff sessions,gr pompeo. loyalists all as donald trump turns his campaign rhetoric into a governing reality. i'll talk to his incoming chief of staff reince priebus. also, do democrats in congress work with trump or fight him? >> on issues where our values are at stake, where the president goes in a divisive direction, we'll go against him with everything we've got. >> my interview with the new democratic senate leader chuck

voters who went for obama and then trump. >> well, maybe it's the fact that i believe that hillary clinton was a criminal. >> i talk to voters who turned blue states red about what they expect now from the president. joining me are tom friedman, columnist for the "new york times." kathleen parker, columnist for the "washington post." neera tanden, president of the center for american progress. robert costa of the "washington it's "meet the press." good sunday morning. president-elect trump spent the weekend at his bedminster, new jersey, club, meeting with possible members of his administration including one time rival and critic mitt romney who is reportedly being considered for secretary of state, as well as michelle rhee, a democrat who ran the school system in washington, d.c. could

thing clear with his choices for national security post it's that he's not yet tacking to the middle as many conservatives perhaps feared or liberals hope. for national security advisor general mike flynn who says militant islam poses an existential threat to the united states. attorney general jeff sessions of alabama, tireless opponent of illegal immigration and someone accused of making racially incesensitive remarks that derailed a previous hearing for a federal judgeship in the '80 representative mike pompeo of kansas, tough critic on hillary clinton for benghazi. he's gotten praise from both. the team represents security over civil liberties, loyalists over moderates. republican senators were largely supportive of the choices and democrats for the most part, particularly for jeff sessions, sharply opposed. joining me from donald trump's club in bedminster, president-elect trump's incoming

reince priebus. mr. priebus, congratulations on the new job. >> well, good morning, chuck. appreciate you having me on. >> let me start with the meeting with mitt romney. is it fair to conclude -- i've talked to a few people close to your campaign but we're talking to you and that is simply it's rudy giuliani or mitt romney for secretary of state. is that fair to conclude? >> look, i think if you see the entire picture here what americans should take from this is the fact that we have a es he started with that speech he gave on wednesday morning very graciously say nothing matter who you are, no matter what your background, i'll be here for you, make you proud of our country and what you saw with mitt romney people like ted cruz coming in is a continuation of this bridge building in this scene that all americans should take in that he wants to bring us all together. the meeting with mitt romney itself, though, i will tell you was a very good meeting.

and it was very sincere and it was productive. so we don't know where it will lead right now, but i can tell you that it was a great first step and people should be proud of the way things are going here in president-elect trump's operation. >> would it surprise you if president-elect trump selected mitt romney for secretary of state? >> you know, look, i'm not sure who he's going to select but i do know -- >> but would that surprise you. >> rudy giuliani, general keene, general mitt romney, obviously, and we'll see, chuck, where it goes but it's a good sign for all americans. >> i want to talk about, obviously, donald trump ran especially at the end on the phrase, he used it a lot, "drain the swamp." but there's a number of moves that have happened that call that into question, perhaps conflicts of interest, his daughter ivanka trump was seen pictured at the meeting with the japanese prime minister there

president-elect's organization, trump organization, they had a meeting with the president-elect, took pictures of it, creating this idea that maybe they'll end up profiting off of the trump name now that he's president in india. how are you organizing a divestment or a blind trust right now of donald trump and his businesses? >> we're not going to get into the details of that but that is being handled and there is nothing being discussed of any import. >> how do we know you didn't bring the press in. >> the meeting was cursory. and, look, all of these things -- all these rules are going to be followed, chuck. there is going to be no violation of any of these rules, i can assure you of that and as we move forward those matters will be more clearly spelled out and you'll be aware of it but the one person i can tell you that makes these decisions is donald trump. families historically have been

administrations. and i can assure you what you're seeing donald trump do right now is bring the best and brightest together to make the best decisions for america, for all americans no matter who you are. >> at the end of the day, how does he prove he's not used the presidency to profit. there have been reports that the trump hotel in washington, d.c., that ambassadors were encouraged to bring their visiting delegates and have them stay at the trump hotel in washington, d.c. is that true? >> no, it's chuck, and i think what we have here is it's truly a unique situation where you have an international business person that has done incredibly well in life that is now going to work toward focusing 24/7 on being president of the united states and setting up a system, a legal system to shield himself from any and all conflict. that's what we're doing. that's what people are going to see and in the coming days and weeks the american people will

recommending if following, "wall street journal," no member of the liberal media, at least their editorial page. the political damage to a new administration could be extensive, they write, "if mr. trump doesn't liquidate he will be accused of a pecuniary motive any time he takes a policy position." they essentially believe it's untenable for trump or his kids to have any control over the trump organization while he's president. does the president-elect share thatvi right now, chuck, as well, and like i said before, we're going to make sure no matter what decisions are made that they'll be run through counsel and there's a white house counsel's office that will be there, that will be issuing opinions and these matters will be dealt with accordingly and donald trump, our new president, is going to spend every hour, every minute of the day making america proud of where we're going and making america great again but also making the decisions that

this country so we're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit but i can assure you the work will continue and the best and brightest will be brought together no matter their background, their political affiliation and all the rest. >> let me ask you about the appointment of general mike flynn to national security advisor, essentially there are two corner offices in the white house, you'll be in one, he's going to be in the other. in february, flynn posted a video perpetrated by muslims with the comment "fear of muslims is rational." can you equivocally rule out a registry for muslims? >> um, look, i'm not going to rule out anything. but i wouldn't -- we're not going to have a registry based on a religion. but what i think what we're trying to do is say that there are some people, certainly not all people, chuck, there are some people that are radicalized and there are some people that

into this country and donald trump's position, president trump's position is consistent with bills in the house and senate that say the following. if you want to come from a place or an area around the world that harbors and trains terrorists we have to temporarily suspend that operation until a better vetting system is put in place. and when that happens, when a better vetting system is put in place, then those radical folks -- excuse me, they' will be allowed in but only until that is done. that's what general michael flynn believes and that's what president trump believes. >> does president-elect trump agree with general flynn that fear of muslims is rational? >> he believes that no faith in and of itself should be judged as a whole but there are some people in countries abroad that need to be prevented from -- there are some people that need to be prevented from coming into this country so i think that's

>> reince priebus, the next white house chief of staff, appreciate the time and thanks for sharing your views. >> thank you, chuck. >> you got it. on friday i traveled to michigan for a story on middle-class voters who picked donald trump over hillary clinton, we'll have that story for you later in the hour. but while i was there i took a break to interview the new senate democratic leader chuck schumer. he began by telling me that senate democrats would give a very thorough vetting to president-elect trump's choice for attorney general, senator and that he had tough questions for mike flynn, though he doesn't need senate confirmation who, of course, is mr. trump's voice for national security advisor. but then here we're going to begin with a question i asked of whether he thinks senate democrats should oppose president trump because it's good for the party or work with him when they can. >> well, my test is the specifics. we're not going to work with him for the sake of working with him. we're not going to oppose him

that trump sponsors but let me give you an example on both sides. surprisingly on certain issues candidate trump voiced very progressive and populist opinions. for instance, getting rid of the carried interest loophole. changing our trade laws dramatically. a large infrastructure bill. cleaning up the swamp in washington. these are things that democrats have always stood for and, frankly, republicans have always been against. so we're going to challen on those issues where we can. if he doesn't, he'll be breaking his promise to particularly the blue-collar workers, many of whom voted for him on those particular issues. but on issues where our values are at stake, where the president goes in a divisive direction, where his campaign did before, we'll go against him with everything we've got. we're not going to repeal or help him repeal obamacare.

dodd/frank, i think they should forget about that, we have 60 votes to block them. we're not going to help him build his wall. we have a comprehensive immigration reform bill that builds a much tougher border security and had bipartisan support than he's ever called for. so we're not going to oppose him just because it's trump, but we're certainly going to stick to our values and oppose him wherever he opposes those. but i hope, chuck -- one final thing, i hope on the promises he's made to blue-collar america on trade, on cared on infrastructure that he'll stick with them and work with us even if it means breaking with the republicans who opposed those things. >> you may have the longest relationship of any u.s. senator with donald trump. i know you frequently speak with him. i'm curious, how frequently have you spoken with him post-election? >> well, look, number one i didn't know that well. we'd see each other occasionally at events in new york but i

>> you did a walk on on "the apprentice" so you must have been somewhat palish. >> well, they asked me to do it and i was surprised but i don't know him that well, i learned for more about him in the campaign. i was troubled by a whole lot of things in the campaign. the only thing i can say to my colleagues is president obama met with him and said the presidency is a sobering experience so i hope that president trump will rise to the occasion and when he does we'll try to be supportive doesn't we'll use everything we've got to oppose him. >> i'm interviewing you right now from the suburbs of detroit. we're doing a bring focus on what happened in macomb county, a place where there were obama/trump voters. why do you believe you lost -- the democratic party and hillary clinton lost these voters that voted obama in '08 and '12 and voted trump in '16, particularly in a place like michigan. >> when you lose an election

look away from it. you have to look it directly in the eye and analyze what you did wrong. and the analysis will continue but my preliminary reading is very simple -- we did not have the kind of strong, bold, and pointed economic message that appeal to these people and a message that talked about how rigged the system was in washington. what i hope to do as our democratic leader is craft policies and platform and message that are bold on economic on economic issues, that don't just i believe in around the edges. and what that will do, i believe, is unite not only democrats in the senate, you've seen in our leadership this team this kind of message has gotten. bernie sanders and elizabeth warren on our team as well as joe manchin and mark warner but much more importantly, unite america. i don't think there should be a choice. you know, people say well, should we go after the obama

workers? a bold, strong strong economic message will unite both of them, both groups. it will appear to the worker in oakland county, the factory worker, the college student in los angeles, the single mom trying to get above minimum wage in harlem. >> let me finally ask you about the supreme court obviously you were not pleased with how senate republicans handled the merrick garland nomination. i assumed barring some miracle for your side it duck. >> pray for that miracle. >> how -- are you comfortable filibustering any pick that a president trump makes and if that happened, do you fear the nuclear response by the republicans? >> well, first i hope that president trump picks a mainstream candidate. a mainstream candidate is somebody you may not agree with

believes in precedent and basically believes in following the law. >> what does that mean? can he nominate somebody, in your mind, that is, say, ted cruz? is he too conservative for you. >> i'm not going to get into specific candidates but we'd hope it would be mainstream. if it is mainstream, you have to remember the last four nominees -- two from president bush, two from president obama, got bipartisan support on the bench. if he doesn't nominate mainstream candidate, we're going to go at him with everything we have, or her. go at the candidate with everything we've got because this is so, so important. now, you know, senator mcconnell has said let's not use the filibuster. but they don't come with clean hands having delayed merrick garland for a whole year and further more i was the person

a few years ago when leader reid changed the rules i said let's not do the supreme court, we should have 60 vote, which we still do, because we should get bipartisan support so i hope both president trump and leader mcconnell will recognize those facts. >> senator chuck schumer, i have to leave it there. >> thank you. >> democrat from new york, new senate democratic leader, thanks for joining us. >> thank you. >> appreciate it. >> i did that interview on friday. as the interview was airing donald trump tweeted the following about chuck "i have always had a good relationship with chuck schumer, he's far smarter than harry r. and has the ability to get things done. good news." so there you go, a trump/schumer relationship begins anew. when he come back, my trip to macomb county, michigan, home of the reagan democrats who voted first for president obama voted first for president obama and then for d welcome to the world 2116, you can fly across town in minutes

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or when it's convenient. it's using state-of-the-art simulators to better prepare for any situation. it's giving offshore teams onshore support. and it's empowering anyone to stop a job if something doesn't seem right. at bp, safety is never being satisfied. and always working to be better. let's dig in with the panel. kathleen parker and tom friedman. welcome to you all. robert, i want to start with you. romney, giuliani, how real is romney's secretary of state? you are quick with the trump

romney is very much in the running for secretary of state. trump likes his look, he likes his background. he wants to make an overture to the republican establishment. for trump, he knows his reputation not only at home but around the world. he wants to maybe have a different kind of face. >> there's no question that romney brings a different face because he is the epitome of goodness and would be, i think, a very smart move for trump to put him up front as the face to the rest of the world. as sobo an american flag and turned it into a human being, it would look like mitt romney. >> you have to have a good relationship though with the national security advisor. i bring this up, thomas, as somebody who covered plenty of white house and international affairs. mike flynn has been described -- this is by former colleagues, people that worked with him, they did it anonymously. you have covered general flynn

afghanistan surge. what do you know of him? >> i have seen general flynn in iraq, afghanistan, washington at the dia. i don't know the general flynn who has been tweeting. i had many encounters with him or several in his job as one of the most intelligent intelligent officers we have had. he and stan mccrystal together created the killing machine that took down al qaeda in iraq. they did it in an amazing way, leverg they would take down a terrorist leader, take his computer and cell phone and pour it into a computer, find links and do one raid and another and another. i don't know mike flynn but that mike flynn is a serious, intelligent guy. >> qualified? >> the old mike flynn, definitely. i don't know the new mike flynn. >> yeah. i would say the new mike flynn is deeply worrying. that's who we have seen for the last year. someone who has attacked muslims as awe group, someone who has

basically things that seem racist on their face. and also, in a more disturbing level, we found out that he is actually as a lobbyist been getting security briefings. he is a lobbyist for foreign entities, foreign companies that are linked to foreign governments and has been receiving briefings while he is doing that. i think in it the drain the swamp concern, there's something still there. >> one thing on flynn, we're talking about list world view and combative how close he is, it's revealing about this whole transition. he is there because he is loyal. he was one of the early people who would go up to the top of trump tower, brief trump on foreign aaffairs. flynn was in the running for vp because he was there early. >> what we should learn here? i'm talking about, a team of rivals or is is it going to be loyalists? >> national security, you have

secretary of defense that are able to work together and are basically aligned on their priorities. >> they need to be aligned. >> they have to be basically aligned. >> romney and flynn doesn't feel like an a -- that feels -- it doesn't work. giuliani and flynn to me is more an alignment. kathleen? >> gosh, well if you want -- if you want to present a fierce presence to the rest of the world, those two combined would certainly put fear in the hearts of our allies and enemies as well. the other thing about romney -- i think really today we should change his name to mike romney, since that seems -- >> if you are a mike you have a better chance. >> remember in the second debate with obama, romney was the person who said in our greatest geopolitical foe is russia. he practically got laughed off the stage. this man is not -- he is no novice when it comes to foreign

h said have come to be true. >> i want to go back to the ethics thing. are the trump folks aware that this is something that could blow up? i thought it was interesting that reince priebus didn't dismiss. >> the question is, who is having this conversation with the president-elect in a confrontational way about his family, about his business? a lot of people around donald trump don't want to engage with him on that level on that topic. the idea that a president would profit from the presidency is -- he said he would work for the people, not himself. when you look at the information we're getting about meetings with indian businessmen who want to do more business, the idea that the hotel he has is basically pushing foreign dignitaries to stay at his hotel, give the hotel money in

that is -- >> listen -- >> he does not seem to want to divest. >> i think he has to realize he has been benefitted from the cell cell phone revolution. >> he responded. >> a friend of mine says, the cell phones, five years ago they were a portable x-ray machine. now they're a portable mri machine. they can see everywhere. they can tell the world what lawyer or filter. that can work for you and it can really work against you. >> i'm going to end this. this is why everybody will buy his book. >> note to public officials, don't tweet. >> i don't know. i think it's good. we're learning about who people are. let's pause the conversation here. when we come back, we will hear from some of those white blue collar voters who abandoned hillary clinton for donald trump. what do they expect from their new president? plus, quite a few of them were

about ho ?jake reese, ?day to feel alive?? ?jake reese, ?day to feel alive?? ?jake reese, ?day to feel alive?? [burke] at farmers, we've seen almost everything, so we know how to cover almost anything. even a rodent ride-along. [dad] alright, buddy, don't forget anything! [kid] i won't, dad... [captain rod] happy tuesday morning! captain rod here. it's pretty hairy out on the interstate.traffic is literally crawling, but there is some movement on the eastside overpass. getting word of another collision. [burke] it happened. december 14th, 2015. and we covered it. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two

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people who voted for barack obama in 2012, but abandoned the democrats this year and voted for trump. they were concentrated in middle class suburbs and in rural areas and helped trump win six states, and gave him a decisive victory in the electoral college. i travelled to the epicenter, macomb county, michigan. it's made famous by reagan democrats in the '80s. it is one of 225 obama to trump counties nationwide. a small amount of counties but many stretch across the upper midwest. 12 in michigan. 22 in wisconsin and 22 in iowa. >> obama didn't necessarily disappoint me. i guess. he didn't fulfill everything i wanted. >> a group of voters i sat down with in warren, voted obama in

>> we wanted to get out of the bush administration and we were told lies. >> reporter: but this time, he picked trump. what made you vote for him? >> well, what made me vote for him, i believed that hillary clinton was a criminal. >> this man is the owner of little joe's coney island, a diner. >> i hear people say he's a billionaire. he can't be bought. that's what people are saying. they can't control him. >> 30 miles north of here. i think a lot of people feel like she took it for granted, like it was always been a blue can state and she had it in the back pocket. >> macomb county is car country, ford is next door in sterling heights. half of the manufacturing jobs in macomb vanished. some have come back, but median household income is down 25%. pensions are gone or

>> if i'm elected, you won't lose one plant. >> voters expect trump to keep the promises. >> put us all to work. give us the opportunity to earn a living and take care of our families. that's it. it's that simple. >> job creation. not doing all of our jobs off shore. >> macomb still whiter than the rest of the country, is diversifying quickly. >> diverse. >> i see my children with a school with 30 different languages spoken. >> with it, come some cultural changes. >> i don't like that you can have a transgendered person going into the bathroom. >> voters aren't sure that trump can unite the country. >> how he's talked about me, my daughters and women, who he's appointing all these all white men, to me reaching out is having women and women's issues in the forefront.

muslim from kosovo. stop the rhetoric that's out there where people are being offended, attacked or whatever the case may be because they're minorities. they have a different look to them, a different name to them. they practice a different religion. he has the chance to unite us all. >> by the way remember those 12 obama to trump counties in michigan that i mentioned? michigan primary. by the way, bernie sanders also beat her in all 22 of the counties in wisconsin that went from obama to trump in the wisconsin democratic primary. joining me now is bernie sanders who is out a new book called "our revolution." >> good to be with you, chuck. >> just those county stats alone in wisconsin and michigan, the fact of the matter is they're clearly and i ran into them,

supporters of you. you were for some supporters second choice and clinton was not the second choice and they chose to stay home. do you think you would have had a better chance at carrying michigan and wisconsin if you had been the democratic nominee? >> chuck, i don't know that does a whole lot of good to look backwards but we have to look forward. and we have to hear what the workers are saying a few moments ago and they're sick and tired of seeing their standard of living go down. they're sick and tired of seeing their jobs go to china and other low wage countries. transform our trade policies and tell corporate america to tart investing in this country and not countries all over the world. that means we have to raise the minimum wage. we need pay equity for the women workers and we need to rebuild the crumbling infrastructure and make public colleges and universities tuition free. in other words. what all of that is about is the

been decimated and the rich are getting richer. people are tired of it and they want real change and i'll do as part of the new leadership of the democratic par tri to bring about the change. >> one of the things you hear about is job retraining for folks who are displaced but i want to play a quote from the coo of the auto parts manufacturer and he was talking about the problems with some of these retraining programs. take a listen. floor doing skilled or semi-skilled work and you're 40 years old, you don't want to go do a computer based job. you want to make things. >> essentially the job retraining programs and some of these younger vo-tech programs almost too computer based. he was complaining of lack of skilled labor, but physical skilled labor. >> well, i think we have to move forward on all fronts. i think we have -- not everybody wants to go to college. that's fine. god knows there are enormous

we have to get people the training to do that which is why we have to rebuild our inner cities. we have to rebuild our infrastructure. there's a desperate need for affordable housing in this country. we can put millions of people to work rebuilding this country and so many other parts of america and that is what we have to do. on the other hand, in a highly competitive global economy we do need the best educated workforce in the world. we have to make public colleges and universities tuitionre billionaire friends are going to have to start paying their fair share of taxes. >> the progressive movement, the democratic party is having a debate about whether to work with donald trump when there is agreement. i want to read for you something that eric sassen of the new republican had to say about this debate. to so many democrats any mention of finding common ground with trump is a step towards accomplishing the exact thing we fear most normalization. by prematurely offering to work

slightest bit of contrition, congressional democrats are hollowing out the argument he's unfit for office and that needs to be made more than ever. it's up to trump to prove to us he's able to lead. we shouldn't make it easy for him. bottom line is this, essentially, do you not work with him until he shows some contrition on some of the social issues? >> well, look, let us be clear, chuck. when donald trump helped lead the birther movemenha effort to undermine the legitimacy of the first african-american president we have ever had. that was racist and disgraceful. the african-american community and all of us deserve an apology. when he talks about latinos and mexican as criminals and rapist that's outrageous. when he says that people who are muslims cannot enter the united states, that's an outrage.

clear. speaking for only myself. there is no compromise. we have come too far as a country to try to move forward in a nondiscriminatory way. to go backwards and see us divided up by racism and xenophobia. on the other hand, issues like raising the minimum wage -- you know trump has talked about he's not going to cut social security or med care and medicaid. he's glass/steagall kind of legislation, we have been working on those for years. if he wants to work on those, i accept that. >> you don't accept the premise you shouldn't work with him under any premise? >> right. but he's said outrageous thing and he needs to apologize to the american people. there are people all over this country who are really frightened. but the other thing, the other thing, chuck, is climate change.

we have a president-elect who thinks it's a hoax when the whole scientific community is telling us -- >> senator, right. i want to go back to the other point. what do you say to the progressives that say, hey the republicans essentially united against president obama and guess what? it was good politically for the republican party. what you're describing is going to be perhaps good for the workers you're talking about, but may be bad for the democratic party. what do you say to if progressives? >> i think we need a good strategy to make sure that in fact we push our agenda. look, on the issues, chuck, that i'm talking about, these are the things that i have been fighting for years. but there's no compromise, none whatsoever on bigotry. there's no compromise on climate change because the future of the planet is at stake. we need a strategy and i'm going to work on the strategy. to go to michigan, to go to wisconsin, to stand with working people, to demand that we reverse the decline of the american middle class. >> senator sanders, that's all

thank you for sharing your views. congrats on the new book "our revolution." before we go to break, we said good-bye to our dear friend and colleague, gwen ifill. she was the host of "washington week" and she broke a barrier everywhere she went. she was tough and fair yet at the same time brought so much joy to her work. not to mention she had a great bs detector. something plenty of i was honored to have gwen as a panelist on this show many times. she made everyone including myself a lot smarter. she made over 70 appearances and many times we were on the show together we both called a mentor, tim russert. on the recent appearance on "meet the press," just eight weeks ago. she reflected on the opening of the new national museum of african-american history and culture. >> the emotion of the people in

singing full throatedly reminded me of what -- one of the things that are true in this country. which is that we want to, aspire to make it a better union and we see the clash and the hopefulness of that beautiful museum put up against what we see happening in the streets. [vo] wells fargo is making changes to make things right. first, all customers who have been impacted will be fully refunded. second, a confirmation will be sent when new personal or ard accounts are opened. third, we've eliminated product sales goals for our retail bankers to ensure your interests are put first. we're taking action. we're renewing our commitment to you. safety doesn't come in a box. it's not a banner that goes on a wall. it's not something you do now and then. or when it's convenient.

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we are back. it's data download time. it's a rule of thumb, the winner of a popular vote also wins the popular vote in the swing states. but this year, that's not the case. we have been keeping track of it particularly out west. hillary clinton leads by more than 1 pnlt 6 million votes nationally. that's triple of what al gore led george w. bush by in 2000. among the 13 swing states, these are defined as states that flipped from 2012 or decided by five points or less, it's reversed. trump leads clinton by 863,000 votes. of course, the states are all called battleground states for a reason. they are competitive.

going back to the '92 presidential election. get this. in virginia, out of more than 20 million votes cast in the last seven elections combined, only 72,000 votes separate the republicans and the democrats. in ohio, 34 million presidential votes cast, only 68,000 separate the two major parties. but take a look at florida. out of nearly 50 million votes cast in a presidenal separate the democrats and republicans. that's .02%. if that was the margin in a single florida election, we would see a recount, probably a lot of hand kaucounts. florida, florida, florida. it's for good reason. it's the microcosm of america. you have the old republican coalition and the new democratic

battleground state. when we come back, guess who thinks he should be the de facto leader of the democratic party going forward. it's barack obama. mr. before we go to break, here is snl's take on trump meeting with potential cabinet picks. >> thank you for taking the time to meet with me. >> governor romney, so good of you to come. >> t mary buys a little lamb. one of millions of orders on this company's servers. accessible by thousands of suppliers and employees globally. but with cyber threats on the rise, mary's data could be under attack. with the help of at&t, and security that senses and mitigates cyber threats, their critical data is safer than ever. giving them the agility to be open & secure.

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back now with the panel. what do democrats do? i want to -- the question that i addressed to senator sanders and senator schumer and they both essentially had the same position, they will work with him where they agree. there are democrats that think that's a mistake. where do you come down on this? >> look, i think people were willing to give the benefit of the doubt. this week when you see jeff sessions, mike flynn and steve bannon, you know, there's a view that the president has to reach out after a divisive race. we haven't seen much of that. i think democrats are actually -- many democrats, many progressives are deeply worried that we're going to see a divisive presidency -- >> do you count the tweet about