i am bob schieffer and this is face the nation. u.s. officials say they now have evidence the russians were involved in the shootdown of the airliner over ukraine, and in israel, there is an intense filing of the ground war in gaza. in ukraine, more complications as russian separatists continue to block international efforts to secure the crash site and are now removing bodies. and what appear on the black boxes from the scene. we will have reports from ukraine and moscow. >> in israel, the death toll rises on both sides and there is no end in sight. secretary of state john kerry joins us with the latest. we will hear from a key member of the house intelligence committee, new york congressman peter king and the former u.s. envoy to the israeli-palestinian

peace talks, ambassador martin -- and analysis on all of this .. >> 60 years of news because this is face the captioning sponsored by cbs good morning, again, we are starting with the latest on the malaysian airliner shot down on thursday, cbs news senior foreign correspondent mark phillips is at the crash site in eastern ukraine, mark. >> bob, the scene here has been chaos in the three days since this crash but finally, and largely as a result we think of the international outrage that has been caused, some of the bodies roughly 200 of them of the victims of this crash are now being moved, it just has been confirmed here, they have been taken to a town nearby and put in refrigerated rail cars, but that is just the beginning of it, there is still at least we calculate 100 bodies data are unaccounted for, many of them entwined, we have seen over the last couple of days in this wreckage, there is still a huge job to be done here, there are areas that are still hot, still

a lot where aviation fuel is down, there are people in the tangle of the wreckage that will take days and equipment to extract, but in terms of the anguished families all over the world, who lost people in this crash, those people are not now laying exposed here. in terms of the early summer, in terms of the actual investigation, nothing serious has started here yet, there is an advanced team from the european security body, on-site, but in terms of actual crash investigation, how this happened, who did it, what evidence is in this field, nothing yet, bob. >> schieffer: all right, mark. thank you so much. in the other major segment of the horrendous events that are unfolding this morning, israel's ground invasion into the gaza strip is more intense than ever and now there are new reports of israeli casualties, barry petersen is in gaza with more on that, barry. >> good morning, be bob, well i

think we can say it is an dramatic explanation if i can borrow your word, horrific death toll, overnight hamas claims it ambushed a bunch of israeli soldiers hamas claimed it killed 14, then today we saw shelling in one of the neighborhoods here in gaza, so far, the death toll is about 70 but i have to tell you, bob, we really don't know, there is a cease-fire, that got broken when the shelling started again. the city hospital today talking with some of the people who had been chased out of the area who say they saw bodies in the street, people that they were unable to get help for and perhaps the saddest place to be in the city, the morgue at the hospital, as fast as they would find a family, they would identify the remains, they would take them away, sobbing and wailing, another body would come in, and i have to say, bob, that is the metaphor for the war that is going on in this city today. >> schieffer: all right. barry petersen, thank you so much, barry.

the secretary of state john kerry joins us now from boston, mr. secretary, thank you so much. and i want to start with the bottom line question. do we have definitive proof that the russians were directly involved in the bombing, downing of this airliner? >> well, bob, when you say definitive proof of russia, the investigation is going to draw conclusions that are, quote, definitive, what we have is a lot of evidence that points in the direction that raises very, very serious questions, including the fact that a few weeks ago we have 150 vehicle convoy coming from russia, going into the east of ukraine with tanks, artillery, mobile rocket launchers armored personnel carriers turned over to the separate tests we know that there are russian leaders, russian whose are leaders of the separatists, some, not all, some, and we know that the

russians have armed the separatists, trained the separatists, support the separatists, and have to date not publicly called on the separate tests to stand down or to be part of the solution. we know that from our own imagery, we see that an sa 11, which is what we have assessed this to be the type of surface to air missile because of the altitude, the plane was at 33,000 feet, we know they had an sa 11 right in the vicinity, hours before this shoot. the social media has documented this. we know that immediately after the shoot the social media documented the self-proclaimed defense minister of the people's republic of do task as they donetsk, he was bragging on social media about shooting down a transport plane .. and then when people learned it was a civilian aircraft, they pulled that off of the social media. we have intercepted voices that have been documented by our

people through intelligence as being separatists, who are talking to each other about the shootdown, and we know that we have a video now of a transporter removing an sa 11 system back into russia and it shows a miss missing missile or so. so there is enormous amount of evidence, even more evidence than i just documented that points to the involvement of russia in providing these systems systems, training the people on them. we know that the separate tests have shot down 12 aircraft in the last couple of months, among them two transport planes, but the evidence is quite enormous, here is what is currently bothering everybody. drunken separatists have been piling bodies into trucks and removing them from the site. we only have 75 minutes of access to the site on friday, three hours of access yesterday,

despite mr. putin and russia saying they were going to make every effort to make sure that there will be a full and fair investigation, thorough and the site would be protected. because of russia's linkage to these separatists they have a greater ability to exert influence and we need russia to become part of the solution not part of the problem. >> schieffer: well, what else do we need to know, after hearing what you have just outlined here? >> we need an investigation, not the secretary of state just listing the things that we do know, but a full investigation within international investigators with their trained personnel, with the people who can put all of the evidence together and draw the appropriate conclusions so that we don't have he said, she said, finger pointing back and forth. people will draw their own conclusions, the evidence is there, but we need a full access to this site in order to conduct a thorough investigation. >> schieffer: well, what if it does come down to, yes, the

russians are responsible for this? then what should the united states do? what should our response be? >> well, there are many things that are options and are already options, bob. we are in conversation now with our european counterparts. we hope this is a wakeup call for some countries in europe that have been reluctant to move. president obama took steps unilaterally, he took them on his own the day before this event and he imposed very tough new sanctions in the banking sector, in the energy sector, in the defense sector, and there are still other sans that could be put in place if it was necessary. our hope is that president putin will put the actions behind his words. if we can join together in order to help end this separatist effort, bring them into the politics of ukraine, and try to, you know, help ukraine to be

able to move forward. and incidentally, you know, in the last months we have been successful in having an election in ukraine, having a new president, and being able to have a new government formed. this deserves the support of russia to be able to build a peaceful, not confrontational and separatist insurgency, but to create a peaceful process to be able to have a ukraine whose sovereignty is respected and where it is not a pawn in some unnecessary struggle between east and west. we have said to russia, we want ukraine to be a bridge between the east and the west, and it can look in both directions. but the way russia is currently play this dual track policy, saying one thing, do another, is really threatening both larger interests as well as that region and threatening ukraine itself. >> schieffer: mr. secretary, let me shift to this situation in israel, hamas on their

website are now taking credit for killing 14 israeli soldiers in the latest ground action in the gaza. can you confirm that? do we know that there have been israeli casualties? >> i think there were some casualties reported a little while ago, bob, but not up to me to be reporting israeli casualties, it is up to, you know, that will be done in the proper course and process. but let me say this. israel is responding to an intransigent hamas that was offered a cease-fire and didn't want to take it. we support the egyptian effort to have a cease-fire, which israel joined into, which does not have preconditions and then there was a promise of sitting down and dealing with those underlying issue that need to be dealt with, but hamas is trying to insist that as a reward for their terrorist behavior things

be decided ahead of time and we support israel in the international community's right not to be extorted by terrorism. >> schieffer: are you going to -- let me just ask you this. are you planning to go out there to try to -- increase the chances of a cease-fire? >> i am planning to go and probably very shortly. the president and i have talked about this as recently as a day and a half ago, we were supposed to be in touch again today. it may be they will ask me to leave immediately, but we have been working very closely with all of the parties and in touch with them and i think if the president deems that this is the moment that is appropriate obviously we will go immediately, but i think there are conversations takes place today with prime minister netanyahu and others and hopefully we will have a decision in short order. >> schieffer: all right.

mr. secretary, thank you so much for joining me. >> thank you, sir. >> schieffer: thank you. our foreign correspondent clarissa ward was in moscow listening to the secretary, clarissa how is what he just said going to go down there? >> well, bob, it is anybody's guess we have been working the phones all day trying to get some reaction from the russian leadership to this sort of growing litany of evidence that appears to indicate a russian role in this crisis and so far there has been radio silence, even president putin himself has not been seen or heard from since friday when he issued a brief statement essentially saying that a an international impartial investigation needs to take place, but of course, bob, in these situations actions speak louder than words and as secretary kerry said there is no real evidence yet that president putin has tried to used his considerable influence with the rebels to get them to facilitate that investigation to open up the crash site and give the investigators unfettered access. >> schieffer: all right.

well, clarissa, keep us posted, thank you. and joining us now for more on this story, cbs news senior national security contributor and formerly the number two man at the cia, michael morrell plus cbs news homeland security correspondence bob orr or and our correspondent david martin. mike, i am going to go to you with the same question i had for the secretary. what else do we need to know here? it seems pretty clear that russia was deeply involved in this, and and if they were,t do we do now? .. >> bob, there are different levels of russian responsibility here. one is the fact that they created these separatists, they encouraged them, they funded them, they equipped them, that is a level of responsibility all by itself. that is already established. there is a second level of responsibility in terms of did they give this particular weapon system to the separate tests? the evidence on that sounds to

be, seems to be mounting. the ukrainians are now claiming it. the secretary all but said it a few minutes ago. i think we are there too. and then the third level of responsibility is we are, were russian special forces on-site? did they assist in the firing? that we won't know. i don't think we are going to learn the answers to those questions from a forensic investigation of the crash site. we are only going to learn those answers from intelligence. but it does seem that there is significant russian complicity here to me. so that means, first step is to mr. putin, what does he do? and he really has two choices here. he can come out and take some responsibility for this, just as the soviet union did in the shootdown of the south korean airline never 1993 and really put the separatists back and really bring peace to eastern ukraine. i don't think he will do that, though. i think he is going to continue to deny. that means it is going to have to come back to us in terms of what we do and really two choices i think one is to ramp

up the sanctions significantly, they have been very modest to date. ramping them up significantly and providing much more assistance to the ukrainian government. i think those are the two observes, two options. >> schieffer: bob orr or, he thinks the answers here are going to come from an intelligence investigation, not a crime scene investigation, as it were, is it possible now that they are hauling off these black boxes, the bodies and so forth are being moved, obviously they had to be moved, just for health reasons, are we going to -- what are we going to find out here? >> i agree with mike, there is going to be intelligence driven. what the crash scene can do for us is validate intelligence finding. if we get access, independent verifiable access to the wreckage you can look for tail tell signs of pitting and high explosive residue on the plane skin and look for the way the metal has buckled, those things would confirm a missile strike which we already know happened. the other thing is much has been made about the black box it is

rebels have paraded them through the field now, apparently they y are in donetsk and maybe in a a root to the international treaty organization. but the fact of the matter is the black box accounts do very little other than to confirm it was a normal flight and a sudden cessation of data, consistent with a high altitude explosion. >> schieffer: what about this circumstantial evidence? >> well, the 11 surface to air missiles from two places one they could have captured them from the ukrainian military when they were seizing ukrainian military bases or they could have gotten them from the russians. u.s. intelligence believes it can account for all of the sa 11s belonging to the ukrainian military, so that leaves russia, and now there is evidence that the sa 11s have actually been seen .. moving across the border from the separatist held area of the ukraine into russia. it adds up to a circumstantial case, but a circumstantial case.

>> schieffer: so what is next? >> so what is next is what does vladimir putin do? i think the fact he has disappeared for the last several days is interesting. it means he is trying to figure out what his next step is. and what do we do and what do the europeans do? and as secretary said we are in conversations with them. >> schieffer: could this in some way backfire on the russians? as i think probably the shootdown of that korean airliner by the soviets did. i mean, world opinion seemed to change after that. >> i think that was, bob, a turning point in the cold war, because it really demonstrated to the world what the soviet union was all about. i think that this event has the potential to make, tell the world what the world is all about, he is a thug and he is a bully. >> i think one thing about the crime scene part of this, as i mentioned before, bob, is that missile launch search long gone, it is not there anymore. and the wreckage has been picked

through and cherry picked to a degree that mr. putin can leave the rest of it there and it can't tell us a definitive story so this has already been corrupted to the point that the fizz capital side of this is even less important than it would have been otherwise. >> schieffer: what can we expect from our side, david? >> well, mike mentioned increased aid to ukraine, right now, the u.s. is providing so-called nonlethal military equipment to the ukrainian military and the obvious ramp up would be to start providing them with lethal, but when we ask that question on friday, the answer was, no consideration is being given to providing ukraine with lethal weaponry that they could use against the russians or the separatists. >> schieffer: all right. thank you all, we will be back with, in one minute with a lot more face the nation.

new york rubiconing man peter king, talks to us about the homeland security and, he is joining us from new york. you heard the secretary, you just heard our discussion, congressman. isn't this coming down to, we need to decide whether these people, the russians were behind this or not? and the question i ask the secretary, well, what else do we need to know here? >> bob, i agree with you, i think secretary kerry laid out the case against russia, there can be no reasonable doubt now that russia was involved, that putin was involved, by supplying this type of weaponry to a group of thugs, like the ukrainian separatist juice to bear responsibility for what happens after that. now, this is a game changer. i think that is the point that the u.s. and our western allies have to make clear to putin, that the rules of the game have now changed. he has violated civilized norms and i think we have to engage

severe economic sanctions and symbolic like cancelling the world cup, why should countries be going in the world cup to moscow? why should for instance, areikat to have landing rights so but putin is not allowing access to the flight site so long as the crime scene there is being totally polluted this man shows he is incapable of functioning in the civil lized world and going back to the days of stalin and khrushchev and brzezinski me the way he is responding to a crisis he calls and which everyone knows he did and yet he goes underground, this is what a mafia mob does, what a goon does, not a world leader, not someone in the civil lized world. >> schieffer: well, you point out, cancelling air not flights to the united states .. is exactly one of the things ronald reagan did he stopped all negotiating on all fronts after the soviet shot down that korean plane and he also turned away

aeroflot flights into the united states and is a that ban stayed in effect three years but do you think even that would have an impact on mr. putin because right now, nothing we have done so far seems to have any influence whatsoever on what he is doing. >> bob, i think it would if western allies went along with it and i have been so disappointed in many european nations, i have to give prime minister david cameron of the uk tremendous credit, and in his statement he put out today he was very critical of the other european countries who somehow want to go back to a type mentality and assume this will disappear and go away. it is not they have to stand up to putin, so we have western allies, european allies go along with this, cooperate with us, and a impose severe sanctions and give cameron for leading the way in europe and, in fact, we could have our people just stop putting tout names and locations of all of the bank accounts that putin and his goons, you know, where their money is hidden, all of the stolen assets, hidden

around the world by the russians, we have been playing by the rules with someone who is really the ultimate dirty fighter and to me, there is a moral equivalency he is not part of the civilized nation. >> schieffer: well, congressman king, thank you so much and we will be back in a moment with some personal thoughts. >>

>> schieffer: on the evening news, i was making the point that there was so much turmoil in so many places that you could make the argument the world was more unstable today than it had been at the height of the cold war with the soviet union, the next day the airliner was shot down. someone asked me if i could remember a time when the country faced so many complex problems at once. well, of course i can. the good news, if there is any these days, is that the country has survived many crises. the united states is a tough old bird. still, that hardly lessens the

danger of these days. the shooting down of an airliner, the kidnapping of innocence that, israel, the fragmenting of a that received almost no attention this week. attention in each of these places are events that could trigger wider wars. overnight we found out more about the downing of the airliner, but the question now is what should the united states do if we find the russians are directly responsible? first, we must not draw red lines we are unable or unwilling to enforce. but we must convey to the russian leader in public and private in ways he can understand that such behavior endangers our national interests and security and cannot be tolerated and what penalty he can expect if it continues. back in a minute. >>

>> some of our stations will be leaving us but we will be right back with more face the nation.

>> schieffer: and welcome back to face the nation. martin indyk was the u.s. special mideast envoy, he was our negotiator in the peace talks between the israelis and palestinians before they collapsed, before that, he was our u.s. ambassador to israel in the clinton administration. he is back at the brookings institution now. thank you for coming. you heard the secretary kerry, it sounds all but just to be announced he is leaving for the middle east pretty quick to try to do something to get peace talks started there. where does he go? who does he talk to? what is our best chance to just at least get this killing stopped so people can talk to one another? >> i think he probably heads to cairo, bunk yes moon is u.n. secretary is on his way and the

palestinian president mahmoud abbacy think he is in qatar and will also be heading to cairo, i suspect that cairo is going to be the scene of the action. and the purpose is to achieve a cease-fire, obviously, and what that requires above all is for hamas to decide that it is in its interests to stop firing those rockets. >> well, so far, hamas doesn't seem to be answering to anyone. we know mahmoud abbas asked the question, why are you sending these rockets into israel? even he as head of the palestinian authority is questioning them. who can get their attention and get it stopped? >> well, it is the real question at this moment. the egyptians have kind of a choke hold on gaza and they could influence it by being willing to open the passages, one of hamas's demands, but they don't seem to be keen 0 to let hamas off the hook of israel's battering at the moment. a abbas could have influence and i think that is where the focus

now needs to be. he has a reconciliation agreement with hamas. he is the one that we need to see take control of gaza, that obviously is a long and difficult process, but it needs to start with the cease-fire. so the question is whether egypt, the united states, have, with the help of qatar that provides the financial leverage, can convince hamas that it is in the interest of the palestinian people now to stop firing in favor of a process that leads to the palestinian authority taking control in gaza. >> schieffer: prime minister netanyahu was saying this morning he thought the only real solution here is the demille tarration, as i understand it, of gaza. who can do that? >> well, there are only two ways to demilitarize gaza, either by israeli force, which as we have seen this morning will cause a huge number of casualties, on both sides, which would be, i think, a terrible development,

or the alternative is to get a cease-fire and to have some international force of the process of disarming all of the militias in gaza in the terms of a political process that leads to the lifting of the siege of gaza, reconstruction in gaza, all of that can only be done through the palestinian authority, and it is, perhaps an international force, u.n. man date to do that in conjunction with the palestinian authority, who might be willing to step up and do that? i haven't noticed people volunteering to step in and be an international force to -- >> >> to control the gaza it is a big ask and can only be done in the context of a situation in which there is a different future for the people of gaza. one in which life can return to normal. the restrictions on the passages and the flow of goods and people are removed. that can only happen in the context of a disarming.

so it needs to be in effect a package deal in which the international community and the legitimate authority, which is the palestinian authority together insists that hamas now go along with the process that will serve the palestinian people in gaza. >> schieffer: ambassador, do you think this outbreak in any way had something to do with the breakdown of the peace talks between the balance palestinians and the israelis? you were a big part of that, of course as one of the negotiators. >> sure. i think that secretary kerry has been warning from the outset when everybody wondered why he was trying to resolve this conflict that the alternative to a resolution of the conflict is this kind of chronic conflict with its horrendous toll taken on both sides, and so, you know, that was the purpose behind trying. that was the purpose behind trying to resolve the conflict in a way that would put an end to all of this. i mean, we have had three times

this situation repeat itself over the last six years, and are we really just going to go back to the status quo quo or finally say enough is enough we need to resolve this conflict. that's what we tried to do. perhaps coming out of this we will have a better chance. >> schieffer: does hamas have just an un-- this number of rockets they have, do we have any idea, have they used upmost of them? do they have a lot more? >> the estimate when this conflict started was they had 20,000. >> schieffer: really? >> and so they are firing at approximately 150 a day. they have a long way to go. tough to have indigenous. these are crude rockets, some made out of sewage pipes and you can see, they don't have much impact, except to terrorize the population. >> do you think that the prime minister, prime minister netanyahu may have underestimated their strength? >> i think that it was -- they had the rockets, it was known

they had the tunnels, so i don't think there was an underestimation. the problem, bob, has always been, what do you do about it? because they hide among the civilian population. that is their shield, and the international program is their protection, and, you know, netanyahu has been very cautious in terms of getting dragged into the war, but he is now being dragged into, and the predictable results i think the hesitation was not about lack of knowledge, it was what do you do about it? and there are only two things to do about it, either you just kind of restore the status quo ante and we know where that leads, conflict again in another two years, if not sooner, or you try to find a more comprehensive resolution, which starts in gaza, with trying to take control from hamas and re-establishing the palestinian authority's control. and that leads to a renewed

effort to resolved the palestinian-israeli conflict. >> ambassador thank you so much we appreciate it and wish you all the best in trying to resolve this thing. we will be right back with our panel of analysts in a moment. >>

force for. >> schieffer: we are back now with kimberly strassel who is a columnist for the wall street journal, washington post columnist david ignatius, plus

new york times white house correspondent peter baker and cbs margaret brennan. you know, once when i was a young reporter covering the ford white house and the president called on me at a news conference and my mind went totally blank. to think of a question, i said what about the russians? >> and his answer made the front page. and the more think i about it, it was a pretty good question. >> it was a great question. it is a universal question one we will be asking not just today for but for many weeks to come. >> the russians are put in a bad position here because they are now on the defensive in the world in what president obama clearly hopes is the reluctance that europeans and others around the world have shown toward a tougher stance toward moscow will be changed as a result of the international outrage, it is not just in ukraine anymore, it is 192 dead dutch passengers, it is people in australia, malaysia, around the world who have now been brought into this

one time local conflict, and the question is how does russia respond to it and it is really not clear at this point. >> well, what do you think, david? i mean, what if we determine the, beyond a reasonable doubt and i am beginning to wonder how much more evidence they need here that it was russia that was directly responsible for this? at least they put everything in place. maybe there wasn't a russian there to say pull the trigger. i thought we heard secretary kerry pretty close to that point this morning on your show and it seems clear they haven't decided what the next u.s. step will be, i think for now, for now they are putting the question to president putin and saying you must stop this double game, in which you talk about a resolution of this crisis and you continue to pump weapons in to irresponsible rebelling less separatists. you have to be, as secretary kerry said you have to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. if putin steps away and we can only imagine what he is thinking in retreat now about this mess

that he has caught himself in, if he stems away, then new diplomatic doors open up, if he doesn't then that is really the question we are asking, what steps have been taken? i think they will be driven by europe. i think the dutch prime minister when he, what he calls the behavior of the russia and their allies disgusting he is furious and i think that drives a new stage of this, whether economic sanctions the u.s. has started become much tougher and then you see, begin to see the real weakness of putin's position. >> schieffer: kim, do you think the administration was a little slow to recognize the gravity of this? >> a little? i mean, the president talked about how this should be a wakeup call, the wakeup call should have been when russia annexed the crimea. month ago and go back further and maybe when russia was rolling into georgia in 2008. putin, all the words were used here today, bully are correct but it is word than that, sea

would be czar, he has ambition of a greater russia and the worry of what we just heard here is why would he respond to the west simply saying you need to be part of the solution? no one has done anything up to now. back in june, all of the european leaders got together, we had the g-7 summit in brussels and he was told if he did not stop backing the separatists there would be more sanctions that deadline came and went and now in the middle of july and the united states finally did something on its own and the europeans did nothing, it has to be more than sanctions there has to be lethal aid to the ukraine. that will actually send the message to russia that we will continue to fund them and support them and help them until he stops doing this. that's the only thing he is going to listen to. >> schieffer: so what is the administration thinking about on that front, front martha. >> secretary kerry talked to his counterparts and read them the riot act but it is unclear if

that does anything because a all of the diplomatic engagement at that level is not successful. charlie rose was told the other day that lethal aid should be happening and going to the ukrainian government. there has been support among policy makers in the pentagon and policy makers but unclear white house is moving from the position they just don't want to go there quite yet. so i think sanctions and this idea of stepping up, freezing, i mean, freeze dollar denominated transactions for some big russian companies is not insignificant, be to you really have the full pressure, has to come from the eu. i think also this is a test of whether putin does have command and control over some of these paramilitaries on the ground. that border between russia and ukraine has been quite open and a lot of players in there with can differing agendas it is going to be interesting to see if he can get them to comply, if he chooses to go that route. >> schieffer: there are reasons, obviously, practical reasons here that some of the

europeans are not as anxious to put these sanctions on. what will it take to convince them that there needs to be a unified front here? >> it is going to be various. one of the players, one of the countries that has been most concerned about losing economic ties to russia through all of this has been the netherlands so this is a very interesting moment. they actually turned out to be one of russia's largest trading partners and vice versa, a lot of interest there is, they have not been interested in losing that business. the prime minister now has a different dynamic, he has a whole country who lost more people as they like to say as we did as a proportion on 9/11 and he has to go into the next round and explain what he thinks ought to be done. the european foreign ministers will meet on tuesday and it is hard to imagine the dutch coming in there and saying we have to act strongly, that the rest of the europeans don't find that a moral leadership that they have to follow on some level but how farther going to go really is up in the air. >> schieffer: if they are

germany, it is all about energy and where they get their gas. >> yes. i did some reporting last week to look carefully at what is ahead this winter under different scenarios and the problem is that europe is going to face a very cold winter. europe depends approximately 30 percent on russia for natural gas supplies and there is no way in the short run that the united states can make up for that. we can reduce the impact, and i would hope that in the next few days there will be the most serious discussions about what if all russian gas was cut off, what would we do? what would they do? how would they manage supplies and pipelines? because for russia to go into this your contingency plan you really are absolutely especially to this energy weapon that putin plays every chance he gets, and the europeans are afraid of it. >> schieffer: well, i mean, this is a european gas station,. >> if the european gas station we need to find them a jerry can, another gas station down

the road. >> this gets to the question, the united states i understand president obama's reluck stance, the issue of lethal force, but this is obvious what we should have been doing from the beginning is unleashing the might and force of the american economy on putin and they should have said right away we are going to do whatever we have to do to make sure that we are replacing, helping with european gas stores, talking about other trading relationships and things that the europeans, that we are demanding do more, feel that they have the flexibility do push away russia somewhat and still have the backstop of the united states and its economy behind them. >> schieffer: you know, beyond diplomacy and maybe below the diplomacy, this scene of what is transpiring there out in that peeled, where you heard the secretary say, drunken rebels were out there, you know, going through these bodies and i guess the serve must have been almost unbearable, at least they have gotten them into refrigerated

area, but apparently, margaret, there were reports also taken of some of the black boxes, the recording devices were taken out of that. that is obviously of great concern to the administration. >> it is. and the ukrainian government has alleged that those black boxes they say they have recordings of planning between militants on the ground and what they say is russia help, saying get those black boxes back to moscow, don't let the monitors on the ground from a group called the rsce but it is unclear whether that black box is really going to be intelligence that tells us what we presume and what the secretary laid out which is they do believe russia is complicit if not responsible, the ukrainian government is going beyond that, they said russian military servicemen helped pull the trigger here and that is sort of the next step here in intelligence, is showing the level of russian help, but the ukrainian government is out there saying, they know what is happening, and they are waiting

for us to all sort of catch up. >> how much credibility do they put in those tapes that the ukrainians have released? because in one of those tapes, our class award who, clarissa ward who had been there during the trouble of crimea, she says she recognizes the voice of one of those voice as the people who detained their crew and beat up their camera man and now he seems to be one of the people who is talking to the russians about shooting down of this aircraft. >> that is extraordinary. well, i certainly have the recordings by officials that is not something the u.s. is putting out there right now, but ukrainian service recording but they are also have their own agenda and that is what has been so difficult in covering this ukraine conflict is is there, so much of it has been extreme propaganda by both sides over the past six months but with this incident it is going to come down not to propaganda but the specifics of what intelligence can lay out, they

know with this level of weaponry what happened. >> schieffer: david, let's talk a little bit about what is going on in israel and in the gaza this morning. obviously, the secretary of state is about to get involved here, but as i was saying to ambassador indyk, who does he talk to now? what is the best chance, where do we go now to find some diplomatic solution? and somebody you can have some control over hamas? >> as martin indyk said on your show, the secretary will head probably tonight to cairo, an egyptian led diplomacy from the united states trying to draw in abbas, the pal sinnian authority leader into a cease-fire process is the game. we have seen an interesting process of evolving war goals and at the very start of this operation they talked about an extended period of quiet. they just wanted the missiles to stop. then they began talking about closing off the tunnels, which are being used to attack israeli forces and that is more

aggressive cry for ground forces and now talk about disarmament and that is an ambitious goal and if you true try to get that by military force you in a nightmare, like invading lebanon, i don't think the israeli wants to do that, i had my eyes on a process going forward, secretary kerry will start with the egyptians that will try to create a political foundation for the palestinian authority to begin to get a new government in place in gaza that could make demille tar station work, you will just have to keep pushing on the weapon sites right to the end of whatever prediplomatic moment there is. >> i think the problem, though, is nobody does have control over hamas and also right now nobody wants to have control over hamas. egypt is very happy to have israel dealing with this situation demoment, and they don't necessarily want to step into this, and so as much as everybody wants to talk about a cease-fire i think the unfortunate reality is that the only way you make hamas stop at the moment is that you go in and

you debraid them politically and militarily is that they feel they have no other option but to come to the table and that involves going in and destroying the tunnels, getting rid of the rocketry in there and also targeted strikes on the military and political leadership, and israel has tried this before in 2009, 2012, and went in for a week at a time, didn't finish that job, and now have had to go back in again and hopefully this time they realize that you have got to actually finish it before there can be these talks. >> i think the channel is you can't militarily defeat an idea an woul one of the questions yot to martin indyk was really spot on to say, did you underestimate, did the israelis underestimate hamas because what you heard from u.s. officials and egyptian officials is how incredibly hamas has gotten with the new al sissy government, .. not only shut down tunnels but arresting the brethren, muslim brotherhood hamas in the

territory they control, so credibility the egyptians have with hamas other than they can control access along the shared border. the qatar-is will be an important channel and have been reaching out to the hamas leaders but it is not clear what that will add up to, whether any diplomatic traction at this point yet. >> schieffer: i think one of the great ironies here is when i was out there in may, and people were telling me on the palestinian side, look the reason that we joined up with hamas because they are so weak and that is the only reason they wanted to make this new arrangement with the palestinian authority, because they were so weak. well, right now -- >> well, really whether that is successful or not is hard to imagine. they have shown that they can speak into israel proper with, you know, capture israeli uniforms and do a lot of damage and that has a disproportionate impact in some ways even as they

are taking a lot of damage on their side. you talk about he script, how, two years the last time this happened president obama sent hillary clinton down, secretary of state and the person dealing with that was president morsi, and as we were alluding to that is the older brother of the hamas brother, muslim brotherhood they had an alliance, friendship al-sisi does not. >> the government of egypt is in fact on the opposite side, so when they propose the cease-fire they had nobody listening to them and the question ask whether that changes in the next few days. >> well, i think we have to leave it there. the efforts to get a cease-fire continue, but i don't think we are anywhere close to it right now. thank you all very much. we will be back in a moment with i want to tell you about a new book that is out about a legend here at cbs news.

i want to call your attention to a new book by tony silva out this week about an old friend, the late cbs news correspondent

robert pier point, the last reporter at cbs hired by ed murrah. over a four-year careers, he did more in cbs and covered the white house with a series of correspondents including dan rather, me, and lesley stahl. every newsroom needs someone who has been there long enough who knows the history and context and is unselfish enough to tell the new hires where to go and who to call to get answers. for many of us here bob pier point was that person this is a fine account of bob's work and journalism in the last half of the 20th century. back in a moment. >>

>> well, that's it for us today. be sure to stay tuned to cbs for the latest on these two big stories, plus all the other news tonight, every night on the cbs evening news and tomorrow morning on cbs this morning. that's it for us, see you next week. >>

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