>> i am major garrett today on face the nation, the threat from isis grows. two americans are killed fighting with the terror group that is also known as the islamic state in iraq and syria. president obama studies the dangers and the options. >> i don't want to put the cart before the horse. we don't have a strategy yet. >> the pentagon is conducting surveillance for air strikes in syria, will the president approve them? will they be enough to defeat sigh sister and is that even the goal of u.s. policy? and russian troops and military equipment enter eastern ukraine, more economic sanctions appear likely but can the west reverse russian aggression. >> we will ask the president one of the top president's critics, john mccain and get the latest on the fight against isis and potential threats against america from peter king of the house homeland security committee and adam smith of the house armed services committee,

60 years of news because this is face the captioning sponsored by cbs >> good morning again, we start this morning with the growing debate about what the u.s. and its allies can and should do to combat the brogue threat of a terror group isis, yesterday the policy debate was front and center in the pages of "the new york times". secretary of state john kerry who is being extent to the region to build and international coalition wrote, air strikes alone won't defeat this enemy, a much fuller response is demanded from the world. we need to support iraqi forces and the moderate syrian opposition who are facing isis on the front lines. we need to disrupt and degrade isis capabilities and counter its extremist message in the media. and on the other side, republican senators john mccain and lindsey graham wrote regional allies are importance but ultimately isis is a military force and must be confronted militarily, mr. obama has begun to take military action against isis in iraq but they have been tactical and reactive half measures, continuing to confront isis in iraq but not in syria would be

fighting with one hand tied behind our back. >> senator john mccain joins us now from cottonwood in his home state of arizona, senator, specifically as you can you describe for our audience what a full-blown strategy against isis would look like? >> a full-blown strategy would be recognizing that we now are facing the largest, most powerful, wealthiest terrorist organization in history and it is going to require some very strong measures to defeat tell. and they must be defeated not contained. and we first of all have to have a strategy, the president said he didn't but what our goals there, if you want to build coalitions, what are you telling our allies? that we want to save people who are stranded on a mountaintops or protect american troops? you have to have a specific strategy to defeat isis and that means

among other things understanding that isis has obliterated the boundaries between syria and iraq, main headquarters being in syria. so we have to get better weapons to the peshmerga and we have to have air strikes in syria as well as iraq. we have to arm the fsa, the free syrian army, one of the biggest mistakes ever made in my view in recent times was the president's overruling his entire national security team, including the secretary of state, two years ago for providing weapons for the free syrian army. that was a seminal moment. remember this is a president who say it is not a matter of whether, but a matter of when bashar al-assad would go, we need to have reconciliation between the sunni and the new government in iraq and most of all we have to have a clear

strategy dictated by a policy, and that policy has to be we have to defeat isis, not contain, not stop, but defeat isis, because they are a direct threat overtime to the united states of america. >> let me pick up on that senator mccain are you saying we are at war and should say so clearly to the world an to congress with isis and does that also mean introducing special forces into the mix? >> >> i think that it requires additional u.s. troops, not ground combat units, but it is going to require some more special forces, it is going to require some more forward air controllers, it is going to require some more advisors for training. of the iraqi military which right now as we all know is in near clams. and we have to also work closely with the kurds and help a very, especially with weapons to the peshmerga which is a very -- they can fight, and iraqis will

fight, but there has to be a policy and a strategy to implement that policy and first we have to tell if we want to build a coalition, we have to tell those people what our goals are and these people by the way are very cynical, particularly the saudis and others because we said we were going to vehicle syria and then the president reversed himself without even telling them. is this a war footing we should be on with isis? does it represent that much of a danger and should that be the organizing principle of the strategy whenever it is developed? >> i think it starts with an understanding that this is a direct threat to the united states of america, that it may be one of the biggest we have ever paced, i was astounded when the president of the united states said that the world has always been messy and it has been accent gated by social media .. that means that the president of the united states is either in denial or

overwhelmed, he is either in denial or overwhelmed one of the two, because whether it but crane, which may be we will have time for a few minutes on but this is a direct threat to the united states of america and we are seeing, of course, vladimir putin on the march in ukraine. >> what should be done in the ukraine? the president is talking about more economic sanctions when he meets with nato leaders next week in europe. >> of trawl, we have got to realize what vladimir putin is. he is an old kgb colonel that wants to restore the russian empire. then yanukovych was over throw peace my by the peace of ukraine indicating their commitment to being a part of europe vladimir putin had to take crimea because of his desire to have that naval base and access to the mediterranean, then vladimir putin thought that he could excite enough separatist and enough pro-russians in eastern ukraine to establish some sort

of area under his control. >> what does do you do next, senator? >> what to do now is impose strong sanctions, we would not even give intelligence information or to ukraine give them the weapons they immediate, give them the wherewithal they immediate, give them the ability to fight. they will fight. and as far as vladimir putin is concerned put strong sanctions, vladimir putin's viewpoint, major he has done pretty well with minimum personality and as long as the europeans are dependent on his energy supplies they are not going to do much. >> senator, i have talk to people at the white house say the last thing that region needs the more weapons that is making the situation worse. you disagree. why do you believe the introduction of u.s. weapons would make a difference on the ground in eastern uh explain. >> for god's sake can't we help these people defend themselves? this is not an incursion. this is an invasion.

>> has there been an act of war committed by russia against ukraine? >> i think from the ukrainian standpoint you would say that. he is accomplishing a land bridge all the way to crimea and ahe may threaten moldova and the balance ticks if he continue to succeed when you say she a quote, unquote war it is a conflict that requires our participation, not through american ground troops, but our participation, our help and our leadership, and that is what seems to be mysing. >> libya now is collapsed into a failed state, that is what happens when you lead from behind, and we are now facing more crises and more in more parts of the world than at any time since the end of the cold war. >> senator mccain before we go i want to talk about the ebola crisis in africa, 1,500 dead, 3,000 cases already, 20,000 predicted in the next six months. should the united states send military medical assets like the uss comfort, uss mercy to treat

some of those afflicted by this virus and should the united states be more directly involved in trying to contain this outbreak? >> i would like to see obviously, al of us would like to see the united states more involved. we have hospital ships because they can move from one place to another. if there is a role they can play where we can provide additional medical help i think all the world would support it, and some experts are now saying that this is a very incredibly dangerous situation that we are facing. so we should marshal up all the assets we have to do what we can, but it is a very complicated and difficult situation, obviously. >> senator mccain thank you very much for joining us on face the nation. for more of the threat on isis we turn to congressman adam smith a top democrat on the armed services committee joining us from seattle and republican peter king a senior member of the house homeland security and intelligence committee congressman joins us from his home state. >> do you have any reaction to senator mccain's comments about

syria and the ukraine, specifically let's start with syria. well i think the point is absolutely it is a military 0 conflict, but it is also a political one and i think the problem is, we need reliable partners to work with in the region, if we simply come in and start bombing isis, we run the risk of forcing sunnies into their camp and let's take iraq as an example .. when the problems began in iraq there was considerable criticism the president didn't act right then. but the problem was we had the maliki government in iraq and acted right then we would have coming in on the side of iran and the shia, in a shia-sunni civil war and what we need in iraq and syria we need moderate sunnis to oppose isis to do that, we have to build that coalition, building that coalition is not an excuse for not doing military action, it is making sure that that military action is effective, by insisting on a change in government in iraq, getting?ing even approaching a power sharing arrangement to bring some sunnis back in, put us in a stronger

position, similarly when we were able to partner with the kurds that put us in a stronger position to confront isis. and syria it is much more complicated, we have got to work with the plea syria movement, but they are relatively away and divided and last problem we have there is for too long a potential allies in the region like turkey and saudi arabia were punning groups like isis, you know, increasing their power now i think those folks have seen the light and they want to try to work with us, but it takes time to build a coalition, we can't stinl my bomb first and ask questions later, we have to have the right targets and the right support in order to be effective in stopping isis instead of uniting sunnis around them. >> very good, congressman king i want to play something for you that british prime minister david cameron said on friday about the threat to the u confident and possibly other western nations let's take a listen. >> if what we are pacing in iraq now with isil is a greater and deeper threat to our security

than we have known before, people are rightly concerned about so-called foreign fight whores ralph from britain to syria and iraq taking part in terrorist acts and then come back to threaten our security here at home. and the fear of this threat is growing. >> congressman king based on what you know what can you tell us about the likelihood of an isis or isil attack on the united states in is that really the leading threat we have to face here or is it more something that the europeans, specifically the bring dish have to be concerned with? >> >> major i would say we have to face it as much as the british. there are more brits in syria than americans the fact is all of those brits it could be 500, as david cameron said and also thousands of others of other european nations that have gone to syria, they are a, they have european passports and all come to the united states, admission to that we have over 100 americans that are there and a number of canadians who can come back to the united states and as has been seen in the past the united states is always the main target of these terrorist organizations, so, we are very concerned about this and i would

say, i wish our president was showing the same leadership that david cameron showed, what is president obama waiting for? i agree with adam smith that we have to have coalitions and try to get other forces on our side, this was a year ago this started, the white house with dennis mcdonough talking about the importance of air attacks in syria and our allies pulled out and, pulled the rug out and the allies it is hard to get back in a coalition and vice president biden in the white house trying to get support, virtually nothing has been done on that, we can't wait forever and the longer with doe wait the stronger isis becomes, more people and more america and bring tape come at risk. i would like to ask you both, i will girlfriend you a second, let me ask you both is this a situation that should remind us of what we did or did not do with al qaeda? he we did not declare war on a al qaeda, should we declare war on isis and get a military strategy

about defeating them even if we can't have the perfect or even near perfect coalition that you talk about a minute ago, congressman smith? >> i think problem with doing that is with repeated references the air attacks, the president threatened and didn't do, those are air attacks that were going to be against the assad regime the very people isis is fighting so i think that shows the complexity of the situation. we do not want to come into syria now on the side of assad we have got to find other folks, the free syria movement to work with, that isn't simple and again if we go in and appear to be, you know, choosing either assad's site side or the shia side in a civil war then we simply drive more sunnis into the arms of isis, that's why we have got to build these partnerships, building these partnerships superintendent about we would rather not do it ourselves it is it won't be effective if we do it ourselves, yes the threat is real, i think it is a bit of an overstatement at this point to say that that threat is on par with al qaeda,

al qaeda was actively plotting attacks and they had numerous of them, that they were blotting against the u.s. and other western targets isis has a lot of foreign fighters come in, some are going back and we are worried about lone wolf attacks, there is no evidence at this point they are actually doing this sort of command and control plotting, planning specific attacks against western targets like al qaeda was, gosh to are a better, for almost a decade before 9/11. >> congressman king let me pick up on that because there are some analyst whose shade the the packet we are now carrying out air irrelevant strikes, air strikes in iraq will make isis more likely than it would have been originally to attack the united states and create a grievance that didn't exist before would that also be the case in syria and is that something the u.s. government to ponder? >> no. al qaeda didn't need a grievance to attack us on 9/11, these groups don't need any excuse, they will attack us whenever they can and i disagree with adam i believe isis does plan on attacking the united states, even three years ago the predecessor organization tried to attack fort knox and two

people were arrested and convicted in kentucky for that, attempted attack and again, ad damn talks about the president talks about setting up this coalition they started a year ago and they can't put it together, how long do we wait, the more we wait the more dangerous isis becomes and my main criticism of last year the president lined up these allies for the bombing attacks and drew the red line and then he pulled the rug out without telling the allies and now they don't trust the president an that's why you will find reluctance to other countries and arab states to get involved with us in a cole lis. >> let me talk to you both about ukraine, i talk to several analysts who believe that is bigger threat because vladimir putin is trying to upset all understood international orders, international rules of law in ukraine, what congressman smith do you think .. is the appropriate response of the united states government should it only be sanctions or should the united states as support mccain suggested introduce arms and intelligence on about a behalf of the ukrainians fighting the russian incursion? >> both of these situations are threats, i would certainly argue

that isis is a bigger threat because they are a terrorist organization with specific designs on disrupting the region and ultimately attacking us in the west but obviously containing putin is a threat and we should support the ukrainian government strongly in pushing back the separatist and russian incursion that opinions strong economic sanctions against russia, i even believe it would be appropriate and we have sent some nonlethal aid to the ukraine, i think it is appropriate to up that level of aid, to make them a more capable fighting force to resist this incursion and to make it as painful as possible for putin to make any progress in the ukraine. so i do think we should be more forceful in supporting the ukrainian government. >> congress mccain you have 30 seconds, congressman king, wrap it uh. >> i agree with him as i do on many issues, it is important we do arm the ukraine yanls and allow them to defend themselves and give them the role they need we need to let putin flow is a price to pay for this otherwise we can see a move on the balance

ticks, we can see troubles spreading through poland and the czech republic he needs to be told he cannot recreate a soviet or russian empire and we should provide wins to the ukrainians and do it at the earliest possible moment. >> congressmen, thank you for joining us on face the nation. we will be right back in just one minute. >> this portion of face the nation is sponsored by bp. proud to be america's largest energy investor. >> for some analysis this

morning we turn to danielle met a of the american enterprise institute and near east policy, great to have you with us, danielle your thoughts on where we are in syria, what the president needs to do, and how damaging in your opinion was his candid, white house says admission we don't have a strategy yet. >> thank you for those extremely easy questions. >> look, the situation we are in in syria is terrible.

it has been growing worse over the last three years. and the problem is we are no closer to an answer. the president was being candid in the way that we don't want our presidents to be candid, we want our presidents to have a strategy and when they don't we don't want them to say so. the reality is we haven't got entogether a set of ideas or set of allies to fight isis or a al qaeda related groups in syria, we haven't got a strategy to push them out of iraq, we haven't figured out how it is that we are going to defeat these groups. and frankly speaking, it is a disaster for us not to, not just in the middle east it is a disaster for us wherever al qaeda and those groups are. libya is falling apart we are not talking about it, yemen is falling apart, we are not talking about it, we have got threats throughout the region and they are going to be at our doorstep before we know it. >> michael is there a danger in over amplifying the threats of isis? there is a sense now that her 20 pete tall and they are knocking on the doorstep.

>> well, look, isis pose as major threat to our interests in lots of different ways i think there is this question of foreign fighters and the threat to the homeland. there is obviously the big threat they pose to our interests the in iraq and syria and in the middle east more broadly but it is important we not sort of -- we 0 not treat them as though they are ten feet tall, if this is a threat if we have the will and decide to do it, i think we can address. there is a group which has thrived on sort of mobility and moving very quickly and i think it is a vulnerable group and i think the strikes we have undertaken already in places like the mosul dam area and recently just yesterday demonstrate this is a group with vulnerabilities if we do get that right advantage together to take it open. >> >> take it on. >> we have a developing government in iraq and a government unbearable, the assad regime in syria. talking about a coalition outside of that seems to miss the underlying point we don't have a real partner in iraq yet, we may overtime, and we don't have a partner that we can work

with in syria. how much does that complicate what the pea acknowledges is a highly complex situation to him. >> i think it really has been exaggerated, the reality is that we should be able to address what this problem is whether we like the government in baghdad or not. and wha what it has appeared toe over the past few month is just a reason not to have a strategy. not to act, not that we can't act because we are waiting for the good guys to arrive in baghdad, all the guys who arrived in baghdad but not sure if they are really together yet. these cannot be excuses for us. you know what we have a national interest here or we don't. if we don't, then it doesn't matter who is in baghdad, if we do, then we should be bushing harder to pull them together, but we should be figuring out what is imperative even as they put their own democratic government together. >> michael, you have said that you believe that ukraine is actually, of the two, and these are enormously complex and difficult challenges, bigger for all of the players on the world

stage because vladimir putin is trying to essentially rewrite existing world order that has existed since the end of the cold war. >> that's right. i think you see russia which is a major military state, obviously a nuclear armed power really pushing up against every norm, principle and red line which has governed western relations for 20 years now. it is really threatening peace in europe in a way we haven't seen in a long time, and i think it is creating a danger to the great power relations in the 21st century are really going to be dictated by conflict as opposed to cooperation that is not something we want to see and it is a very difficult challenge to meet. wwe haven't i think done enough in the ukraine we haven't done enough to support the ukrainians, but even if we do more, there is no easy solution to -- >> how about arms? >> i think more means a lot of things. i think it means we need to increase sanctions much more rapidly you can't have this incrept tall approach to sanctions i think, i think it means providing military

assistance to the ukrainians, not just weaponry it means intelligence and things like that as well which we have been reluctant to roy, and i think it means nato has to get serious, look, nato appears as though it was really unprepared for this crisis, and that is not acceptable, i think nato has to with the summit that is coming up this week decide how it is going to meet these types of chance in the future as well as this challenge itself. >> real quick do you think nato should enlarge it is elf to take ukraine in, sort of on the fly which is how being discussed? >> look, i think the ukraine yanls are interested in that but you heard very clearly from the president, he is reluctant to consider that kind of relationship with ukraine, i think that the -- there are plenty of ways we can help ukraine without even having to take that step. >> so let's first i think consider the things which are within reach like giving them military assistance which they don't need to be a nato ally to receive. >> very good, thank you so much for joining us this morning on face the nation and we will be right back. >> that's it for us this

morning. thanks for watching face the

nation. bob will be right back here next sunday. >>

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