>> dickerson: ben carson goes on overseas fact finding mission and jeb bush says donald trump isn't ready to be commander in chief. with polls showing voters skeptical skills, retired suffer gone takes his campaign overseas to visit syrian refugee camp. >> getting a good impression of what is going on. >> dickerson: back at home a new ad takes on the president. >> the obama-clinton talk is empty rhetoric. we need people to start whining. >> dickerson: dr. carson will join us from amman, jordan. jeb bush will tell us how to defeat isis and tough talk about donald trump. >> he's all over the map. misinformed at best and preying on people at worse. >> dickerson: joining us from

from baghdad, iraq, republican senners to john mccain and lindsey graham. we'll have analysis on the politics of the war on terror then finish up with our annual thanksgiving book panel this year we'll talk about some new books on presidents past. all ahead on "face the nation." captioning sponsored by cbs good morning, welcome to "face the nation" i'm john dickerson. republican presidential homeful ben carson is in the middle east this weekend joins us from amman, jordan, you visited sear syrian refugee camp, what did you learn there? >> first of all i was very impressed by the outpouring of humanitarian effort on behalf of the jordanians. this has been going on for many decades. but they have really reached out to the syrians in a very big way. i had an opportunity to talk with many of the syrians. that was very eye opening. asking them, what is their desire. what is their main desire.

their main desire to be repatriated in their homeland. i said, what kind of things could a nation like united states do to help. there was a pretty uniform answer on that. that was they can support the efforts of the jordanians. the jordanians have done a yeoman's job in terms much putting up these camps, but the reason that the camps are not full because they are not supported by the international community. it seems like everybody in the international community is spending more time saying, how can we bring refugees here rather than how can we support a facility that is already in place that the refugees are finding perfectly fine when it's adequately funded. >> dickerson: your assess system that jordan could take all the refugees just a matter of getting more financial resources? >> i think jordan could take a lot more of the refugees than

they're taking right now. i don't see any reason quite frankly that some of the other nations in the area shouldn't also be asked to do it so that you don't have to go through a big cultural change with them. and in terms of money, when i looked at the refugee camps in jordan, there's about a $3 billion short fall. annually. that's how much money we spent last year on halloween candy. is it something that can be done? if we bring 10,000 or 25,000 of them to the united states that's not solving a problem. that's a little band-aid that makes people say, we're good guys. we want to actually solve the problem. >> dickerson: make the link between halloween and the refugees for me, are you talking about a national fundraising drive or -- >> i talked about in terms of the amount of money that it

would take to fund the shortfall. our country has done a great job in terms of providing support. there's no question about that. but i believe that the entire international community could easily make up that $3 billion shortfall. my point comparing it to halloween candy to say that this is not a big deal. >> dickerson: i'd like to ask you about the war on isis, you have new advertisement out that entitled "winning versus whining" who is whining? >> my point in that advertisement is let's not sit here and talk about what we can't do and why this is too difficult. instead, we have some terrific military intelligence and advisors who know how to get the job done. let's ask them, what do they need in order to get the job

done and then let's make a decision. are we going to give it to them? or just keep -- >> dickerson: are those advisors not being consulted pgh. >> whether they're being consulted or not is irrelevant. if we're not-ing attention to what they're saying. >> dickerson: what do you think that they're saying that is -- >> if we try to micro manage them. i think they're being micro managed. >> dickerson: what specific way? >> just go out and talk to a number of the generals who have retired, in many cases prematurely they can give you a very good answer to what i'm talking about. >> dickerson: do you have an answer to that question? >> my answer is for you to go out and talk to them and ask them specifically, you want to know the exact reasons why we're not winning and ask what advice has been given and how it has been ignored, i would suggest that you talk to them.

>> dickerson: okay. i'd like to ask you about a domestic political event or what some people see as political. that's shooting at a planned parenthood location in colorado springs. some abortion rights supporters have said that the rhetoric led to that kind of violence, what's your view on that? >> there is no question that hateful rhetoric, no matter which side it comes from, right or left, is something that is detrimental to our society. this has been a big problem. our strength in this country has traditionally been in our unity. and we are allowing all kinds of circumstances to divide us and make us hateful toward each other and the rhetoric is extremely immature, divisive and is not helpful when you have outside forces, global islamic

jihaddist, why would we do that to ourselves? we at point have got to become more mature. no question the hateful rhetoric exacerbates the situation and we should be doing all we can to engage an intelligence, civil discussion about our differences. that's how we solve problems. we don't ever solve them with hateful rhetoric. >> dickerson: should 'bores -- those who oppose 'bores rights tone down their rhetoric? >> i think both tines should tone down their rhetoric and engage in civil discussion. >> dickerson: dr. ben carson, thanks so much for joining us. we spoke with another republican presidential candidate, former governor jeb bush earlier asked how he would be any faster or more effective than the current one. >> i say no fly zone, creating safe zones in syria, directly arming the kurds and iraq, reengaging with the sunnis. the sunni tribal leaders that

were effective partners in the creation of the storage. have our troops be embedded with the iraqi military. basically all of this needs to be a strategy not just one off kind of incremental decisions being made by this president who wants to run out the clock. the strategy ought to be, how do we destroy isis and create stability. right now we have neither. >> dickerson: you've talked about saying you would listen to the generals in terms of their advice about ground troops to fight isis in syria, the president has said his military advisors told him that without a force on the ground to help you u.s. troops if you were going to put u.s. troops they have to stay as an occupational force. is that wrong in your view? >> i think it is wrong. i think that had we kept a small force in iraq we wouldn't have the mess that we have right now. the president and hillary clinton said that al qaeda in iraq was decimated, was gone. when we pulled back diplomatically, politically,

hillary clinton only traveled to iraq one time during her four years. that lack of commitment created the instability that now created a call fate. of course we need to have engagement. without american leadership this isn't going to happen. it's going to require troops on the ground mostly special operators that are helping build this force, but we need to lead in this regard, regardless of the persian gulf countries. >> dickerson: what i'm trying to figure out what the number is here between -- you want troops to go in, then everybody seems to agree there needs to be some kind of stability afterwards. you mentioned the surge from george w. bush's presidency. that surge was successful because hundreds of troops were in there. how does it work in this case without that many troops? >> well, first of all had we kept 10,000 troops as military leaders had recommended, we wouldn't have isis. my point is in the post-isis world there needs to be civility you can't allow the void to be filled. i think we need to do this not

unilaterally, we need to do this in concert with the syrian sunni led forces, well trained, backed up by air superiority and we need to garner the support of the arab world not to -- in unified fashion to create fighting force that will take out isis as well as bring about change in the assad regime. >> dickerson: if 10,000 was good sustaining force in iraq after all the activities there, this is a totally new adventure, it would seem that upwards of 10,000 troops would be necessary for the kind of engagement you're talking about? >> if i'm commander in chief my first order, give me options, and if the military says that we need a fighting force of x thousand, this is the best way to destroy isis then i would take that under advisement for sure. i believe most people that i've talked to, military leaders, think that we can't do this alone but it's going to require more effort than we have right now. >> dickerson: in terms of building a coalition, you've said that you would -- russia could be ally in this fight only

if they abandoned their alliance with assad and sear california how do you get them to do that? >> i don't think we will. i have great doubts whether russia would make that big sea change. we always should be in dialogue with russia my problem is talking to russia from position of weakness only enables their objectives. it has nothing to do with ours. if we were stronger, we would be in a better position to deal with them. >> dickerson: one of your security advisors, john noonan, referred to donald trump and his, called him a fascist, is that correct? >> i think he's uninformed. he's playing you guys like a filled, the press, by saying outrageous things. and garnering attention that's his strategy to dominate the news. the simple fact is that he has been wrong on syria and on the refugees, pretty consistently. and no one is holding him to account. first said we should -- had no interest in being involved in syria let the russians take out

isis, let isis take out assad. back and forth it goes. the net effect, these really serious times he's not a serious leader. >> dickerson: why if he became the nominee would you still support him? >> anybody is better than hillary clinton, let me be clear about that. i have great doubts about donald trump's ability to be commander in chief. i really do. i wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt to see how the campaign unfolded. but you listen to him talk, it's kind of scary to be honest with you because he's not a serious candidate. he doesn't talk about the issues at hand that are of national security importance for our country to keep us safe is the first priority of the president. he's all over the map. misinformed at best and preying on people's fear at worst. >> dickerson: how would that be better than hillary clinton? >> i let voters decide about donald trump. i'm pretty confident that the more they hear of him, the less likely he's going to get the

republican familiar nation. >> dickerson: let me ask you about your position on refugees. you mention that perhaps an approach might be to allow christian syrian refugees in. how is having religiosities like that wouldn't that play into the narrative isis wants, this is battle between the christians and islam? >> it is already in the law that there is a requirement to screen for religion. this is the practice of our country. there was a bipartisan bill that of course didn't pass in congress this year to provide preference for christians who are being slaughtered in the middle east, persecuted based on their faith. religious minorities should have preference. to provide support for the refugees, best means are safe havens inside of syria, that is ultimately what we need to do, this president hasn't led in that regard. >> dickerson: governor jeb bush, thanks for being with us. >> you bet. dickerson: we'll be back in one minute. plan

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>> dickerson: back now with two key republicans. committee chairman john mccain and g.o.p. presidential candidate, senator lindsey graham. they join us from baghdad in the u.s. embassy there. senator mccain i want to start with you. there are two problems in syria, assad and isis. what are your plans for handling both of those? >> i think you have to handle both, the biggest mistake we could make some kind of reliance with russia, vladimir putin's ambitions are different from ours. first you have to obviously take out isis, but at the same time you have to establish a no fly zone which sends the message to russia assad, stop bombing people and slaughtering his innocent sieveville yen, men, women and children and driving millions to refugee status which we are trying to cope with now. >> dickerson: senator graham that's two simultaneous military engagements that senator

mccain sketched. do you think american people are ready for that kind of a commitment in syria? >> they better be, because if we don't destroy isil in syria we're going to get attacked at home. the region is ready to fight. the region is coming after the sunni arab nations in turkey. entire region wants assad gone so there's an opportunity with some american leadership to do things, which is destroy isil before we get hit at home and also to push assad out not give another arab capital to damascus. i can't over emphasize the influence of iran. we've been here for a day and a half. iran is all over iraq. they filled in the vacuum that was created when we left. the region is worried about iranian dominant. >> dickerson: the walt street journal wrote that the kind of operation that you both are recommending could require 40 to 50,000 troops is that what

people should be considering here? >> the could good news 90% would come from the condition. the kind of force 10 1/2% of the force will come from western powers, the force that we're talking about will come from regional armies, there are large regional armies, egypt, turkey, they would go into the fight if you put assad on the table. so most of the fighting will be done by the region. they will -- one thing i can tell you about iraq, next president of the united states is going to be dealing with isil and iraq, because what we have in place here is small, it's limited in focus and will get limited results. have done limited capability we don't have enough american troops inside of iraq to destroy isil any time soon. >> i believe we take it back, which is very important with relatively short period of time that's just beginning. there is fallujah, mosul and others, we need more robust

presence. at all of our candidates talk about refugees, sea sad is major cause of the refugees which are now flooding europe and causing some consternation in the united states. no fly zone will provide refuge at least for some of these refugees. >> there is no ground force being formed in syria. if you don't look at iraq and syria as battle states you are making huge mistake. >> dickerson: base there is no ground force military advisors tell him it would require an occupational u.s. force, that res poor lots of forces for a long period of time, what is your response to that? >> i haven't been told that by anybody. the holding force would be the region. talking about regional armies coming together with a western component, 90% them, 10% us. holding by sunni arab states. turn to assad say you must go. russia and iran what be outside

looking in to entire regional army including turkey with western elements that will fall like cheap suit inside of iraq if we had 10,000 american forces, some western coalition helping us, we could get them out of mosul a lot quicker. i cannot stress to you how urgent it is that we destroy isil every day that goes by that they hold millions of people under their sway is a bad day for us because they're going to hit us at home if we don't put them on the run. >> dickerson: you mentioned bloviating presidential candidates, how much of an effect, let's say donald trump when he talks about registering muslims in the united states, did that have any real affect outside of the united states in the fight against isis? >> i think it has an interesting affect of turning muslims all over the world against the united states of america which is 99 and 44/100 people who practice honorable religion. by the way, the fact is that we

can succeed here and isis is not that strong but the longer they say in power the more this pow on spreads and ma that is that sizes as far away from afghanistan, africa, other parts of the world. >> dickerson: final question to you. talking about a regional force, but the administration has been trying to get gulf states to participate, have been unsuccessful you're talking about regional force than be involved not with the russians but the russians would be active there? people are highly skeptical that such a force could be put together. >> let them be skeptic call. we have tried it, they are ready. but also assad has to be part of the equation, he cannot stay in power for one day longer than necessary. and if you had the right president and the right leadership, they would coalesce. but there is no confidence in the arab world today in the united states of america. that has to be restored if we

want to put together a regional force which has to have american participation. >> dickerson: thank you so much. stay with us, we'll be right back.

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do do do be do. >> dickerson: now for some analysis. peggy noonan is "wall street journal" columnist, cbs news contributor author of "the time of our lives." david ignatius is columnist with the "washington post." jeffrey goldberg is national correspondent for the "atlantic" and michael gerson is also a columnist for the "washington post." david i'll start with you, you had three people there who are auditioning to be commander in chief, what did you make of it? >> my strongest impression was that jeb bush did the thing he's got to do to survive as candidate to sound like a convincing commander in chief. i thought he gave a good account

of how he would augment president obama's strategy for dealing with isis. the additional things he'd try to do with no fly zone, more forward position with special operations forces. i thought he was powerful in taking out, calling out donald trump. i thought this was moment in which he went to the heart of the matter. playing on people's fears. this is getting toward bush's last chance. my take away from that, this is a person who in this environment of anxiety and foreign policy can speak to the country's worries. jed jeffrey, what did you make? >> i would agree. i don't think that bush is penetrating in a way that chris christie is penetrating on these issues. i would just jump to ben carson for one minute say that he said something very densible which, is that the solutions are refugee problem is in syria it's not in united states or anywhere else. we need to be focused on the fact that more than half the

population of syria not even in syria any more. can't solve this problem without a syrian solution. but on what david was saying, yes, there is some important ideas that are being put forward by jeb bush and chris christie. the thing that i'm struck by this buffet line approach. i would take safe zone and no fly zone and i'm going to get the nato allies to do x the arab allies to do y. it's all highly theoretical. each one of these option, is that everyone is talking about, incredibly difficult to pull off. we haven't thought about the second or third or conconcerns of these ideas. >> dickerson: quickly david about 30 seconds on this notion that mccain and graham are talking about the regional army that would handle 90% of the ground troop operations, hooplas sick that? >> it's a huge lift. that was great weakness what mccain and graham said. typical, they're on the scene, they're looking, they're reporting, that's admirable. our problem has been getting our

sunni allies to stand up. they're fighting a war now in yemen. they're fighting a proxy war against their regional adversary, iran. they're not focused on isis. the distance that they have to travel to be the force that would fight with us and clear and hold fallujah, mosul. >> dickerson: we'll be back with all of you in a moment. stay with us. having 5,000 new s being sold every month. this is a very big problem for us with respect to fast and efficient transportation. it's kind of a losing proposition to keep going this way. we are trying to tackle the problem with several different modes. one of them is the brand new metro. we had a modest forecast: 110,000 passengers per day in the first line. we are already over 200,000. our collaboration with citi has been very important from the very beginning. citi was our biggest supporter and our only private bank.

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>> dickerson: welcome back to "face the nation." we want to continue with our panel which includes peggy than noon. david ignatious. "washington post." jeffrey goldberg with "the atlantic" and michael gerson is here. i want to start with you since the attacks in paris, how if at all do you see republican race changing? a lot of people think it's changed what do you think happened? >> i think some of them are pressing important case. after paris we now have isis which showing strategic ability to strike. solidify holds on territory, it has affiliates or followers in 20 different countries. so i identify with senator graham's sense of urgency here. we seem to have a strategy in place a five-year defeat of

isis. maybe we need strategy for one to two-year defeat of isis. republicans -- many of the things are the same but the difference is urgency in leadership. >> dickerson: did you get that sense of urgency from the men you heard today or in general? >> no, i don't think anybody on the republican side or the democratic side communicates a sense that they know exactly what needs to be done, how to do it and how it could all realistically happen. i heard the other day, mike morell said one of the things that can concentrate the mind when thinking about policy, when thinking about isis, is suppose isis hit the united states as everybody fears. what would we all be thinking the next day was absolutely the right urgent strong thing to d. he said, maybe concentrate on the answer to that question.

>> dickerson: right. david, you know what that is, that would be preemptive action of some sort. isn't that -- tricky thing about that formulation we would need the initiating event to get the country behind the action it seems to me that would be then required. >> use your imagination, what would that look like to us? what would be the proper response at this point. >> dickerson: do you think the country would be behind such a thing. >> if it were hit directly the public would support, demand retaliation. i think two roots that we would fall in that case should think about following now. one to augment the direct action strikes that are special forces are already making every day inside syria and iraq. we are killing dozens of people who get back in touch with would-be attackers in the united states who come in on social media. if you get a call back, if you are one of those people trying

to direct an operation, we'll try to kill you. that is already going on, it should be augmented. second harder question is, whether to add ground troops from all the talk from mccain and graham there is not arab ground force that clear iraq or any of these places eliably. will we do that with nato, with coalition? those are the kinds of questions that we would ask the next day we should ask now. >> dickerson: don't you have to do do something after? >> we have lot of experience, it's he's he's to take some of the sunni arab cities, it's also hard to hold them. so i think -- i have very little doubt that president obama would be under huge pressure to insert ground troops in a major way. and to take territory from isis should god forbid there be an attack in america. i also know that he has a tragic sense of the difficulty of taking iraq then doing something with it. the first week we'd have victory. second week we're being attacked

by sunni militants, we've seen that movie over and over again. the challenge is huge. which is why he for many reasons, this whole thing that never has to face this question. >> dickerson: michael on refugees, dr. carson's plan that more can go into jordan what did you think of his -- >> i think republicans have hurt their ability to make critique by relative indifference. we're seeing the situation in the middle east, the massive betrayal of children on unprecedented scale, millions of children were refugees. children who are forced to work or forced into urban marriages, response of the administration according toll special advisor that they ploy for syria, he called pantomime of outrage. there should be serious moral outrage at the problem here. republicans can't provide that because they're conflicted about the issue of islam and issue of

refugees. >> the issue, analytically speaking is that americans are so tired of the middle east, they want to cauterize entire region, don't want to hear about it or know about it, don't believe anything we can do would make it better that's the problem that any policy maker who is looking for any kind of intervention is facing. >> a foreign policy person once told me that americans when they consider foreign policy issue they always think back to vietnam. or back to munich. i think -- do you know what i mean? the dynamic in play. when they think of the mid east they think that's chinatown. that's where tragedy happens no matter how hard we try to do the right thing. >> what's happening there is that young people are being put in camps or refugee situations. they are marinated in the outrage of their parents. creating generations of problems here. this is not just, we can ignore

this. creating generations of violence here. >> is it reasonable to say then let's get the christians in syria who are desperate, who want to flee, who are living in terrible conditions, let's get them over here. they appear to be people who are not connected with those who are going to blow us up. >> they are minorities in general are in great peril, we saw that with the range of minorities. i'd hate to just say christians only are the ones worried about. i heard one thing today on your show that really surprised me. i heard from john mccain talk about candidates bloviating in this race. i heard from ben carson talk about hateful rhetoric that was hurting the country. i heard from jeb bush how donald trump was preying on people's fears. the first time i can remember hearing one on one show three candidates speak out against

tone. maybe that marks -- >> let me ask michael about this. donald trump has offended a lot of different groups and lot of controversy, this year he operated new ground. he appeared, we're going to watch here for a second to make fun of disabled newspaper reporter. >> i don't know what i said, i don't remember. >> dickerson: trump denies that he was impersonating the reporter at the event, the reporter is with the "new york times" he has a disability trump says, he wasn't referring to him. picking up on david's point. donald trump is wildly popular within the polling among republicans. what is the state of things here? >> well, i think it's time, to confront not just trump but followers. it is fashionable in certain quarters to obsess of reality

tv, shock radio, social media version of reality. which is fashionable to attack people and groups. in this sort of way. this is exactly at odds with what the founders talked about virtue. in their view restraint and civility all these things that under guard democracy are undermining. >> he's got 35% it appears of the republican base. that's a significant piece but only a piece. it seems to me everybody always saying with trim that's going to do it him. that's the end of him. it's never true. but at the end of the day a cumulative affect and impression comes together and in his case will not help him. >> dickerson: thanks to all of you we'll be right back with our panel of presidential authors. can a business have a mind?

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>> dickerson: we're back with our physical shall good panel. doris kearns goodman, long time george w. bush political strategist karl rove is the author of "the trial of william mckinley" john meacham's new book. and edward larson the author of "the return of george washington: nighting the states

in 1783-1789" he's also with us -- almost lost it there. let's talk about presidential at tributes we're in season of electing presidents. let's talk about each of your presidents what they did that will help us to form our choices. doris, start with you. what attributes from the presidents you've written about should we be looking for, prospecting for. >> the first thing we need to figure out is whether they can master themselves and their own emotions. have they been able to get through adversity. have they come through trials of fire. have been able to manage negative emotions. once they have grown themselves can they grow other people. can they inspire staff. can they make collaboration happen. can they communicate with people in way that country is going to understand. i really think that's what we should be looking at after dealing with the presidential candidacy. we've been dealing with polls, who said something stupid. the question, we should look at

guidance tell us something, the dead guys. >> dickerson: you've written about the dead guys and been on the inside. what in mckinley's life should we use to help us inform ourselves? >> first, doris was right. here is a man who was unbelievably courageous individual in the civil war, three battlefield commissions, suffered enormous personal tragedy in his life. these i think informed his character. in 1896 wins an election up in the air because he first of all, deliberately seeks to unite the country. his opponent is using language like the enemy's country referring to the east. attacking wall street. excoriating the rich. here is man who is determined to help working class people rise and he seeks a language that is conciliatory and unifying in his race. there by contributes great deal to winning the contest. the other thing is, that he doesn't -- he wants to initially not engage on the biggest issue of the campaign.

he wants to straddle it then wakes up in the middle -- the money question, wakes up in the middle of august realizes i don't get to choose the issues, the voters get to choose the issues i have to talk about that issue in a way that allows the people who are up for grabs in this election, work can class, to to vote for. takes on the biggest pressure group confronts the anti-immigrant, anti-catholic sentiment there by modern nice his party, creates a new coverrening coalition that lasts for four decades. >> dickerson: the american protective association. john, give us attribute that we should look for from george herbert walker bush. >> stability. the fundamental political transaction in the democracy, do we trust our fate in his hands or her hands. and george h.w. bush became president through series of life experiences, he was able to convince enough people that he was someone who could be trusted at the helm.

it was not a glamorous figure, he was not greatest of other for i think safe to say. but he gave up up a sense of command, i think that whether it was being last president of the world war ii generation, series of jobs, almost impossible to imagine now someone with his resume getting even remotely through a primary. u.n. ambassador, chairman of the republican national committee during watergate, what second prize. director of the cia, vice president for eight years. he was a public servant who i think culturally and temperamentally had as much in common with the founding father as has had with his own successors. >> dickerson: i want to talk about present day in a moment. where did george washington, my goodness, he seemed to have it all. what would you pick in terms of something we should look for fellas and women who are running these days? >> did he have it all. everything doris said about

attributes of leadership, washington exemplified. i think of the scenes, courageous, consensus, cautious risk taker. he was courageous he always led from the front, whether from revolution. he was in front. and as consensus, doris of course famously talked about rival are lincoln. nobody put together a team of rivals like that. in the same group, he wanted to pull consensus together. that's how he led his battles he call all his lieutenants together get their advice then think about it then make a decision. he made them all part of the team. then encouraged risk takers, which i think we need in a president. he was willing to think of yorktown then as president, other things. the national bank. he was a risk taker, always

cautious. always by building a team first, that is how washington made it work in a very difficult time. >> one thing i'd like to add what they're looking for, they're all ambitious when they run for president s. there ambition doubled is it for the people, accomplishing something that will stand the test of time. i think about the risks that lyndon johnson took when he became president after kennedy died he made priority to have that civilized bill that would end segregation in the south pass. if he had failed in that, his whole presidency would have fail, he would have never been elected in november. even succeeding he knew he was going to undo the south for a generation for the republican party. he took that risk then once that ambition was fulfilled, he wanted to go for voting rights, affirmative action. when you feel that as a president, if you're really able to cruise that power to do something important then you become a different person. >> dickerson: let's talk about risk taking for a moment. seems like that we're talking about leadership. we hear the word a lot but bent

out of shape. john, what would you say in george herbert walker bush's career, jeb said going back on no new taxes pledge was great symbol of modern presidential leadership. i don't know if you would pick that. what moment would you pick that was risk-taking moment where he really stepped up? >> well, in 1968 as member of congress that houston he voted for the fair housing act which lifted racial discrimination. he had opposed 1964 civil rights act that doris mentioned when he was running fog the senate. once in 1964. once he had power, did he the right thing. he consistently did that. 1988 campaign was hard hitting race. but once he got to washington, he tried to seek consensus. he have members of congress come down take pictures with the polaroid one step, the early selfie. he would -- no one used the horseshoe pit, camp david as much as he did. to george h.w. bush it was one

long class reunion. some of his best friends were democrats. for him, the ambient reality of washington was more bipartisan one and so, when he faced tough decisions he was able to make a consensus-based one, it hurt him with the right. hurt him with his own party, he broke with the base of his party on read my lips. i asked him once, which is your regret, he said, shouldn't have said "read my lips." >> is there a reason why you pointed to me when you kept saying the right? >> with great love. dickerson: we'll come back after this commercial talk about mckinley with karl rove and rest of our panel as well.

>> dickerson: we're back with our presidential books panel. go back to you on mckinley and the american protective association. tell us what this is and why there might be parallel to it in today's republican party. >> one quick comment much we tacked about all these presidents, lincoln with rivals and washington and so forth. presidents have certain amount

of self confidence and self awareness, they have cob confident that they can command these personalities and self aware that they're not necessarily and should not be always the smartest person in the room. mckinley was like this as well. this is why he brought together the divergent elements of the republican party. the example, largest pressure group in america in the 1980s is the american proceed -- 1890s, it is a anti-catholic, anti-immigrant group founded in clinton, iowa, it has millions of members, plays a huge role in voter guides to tell people how to vote. and they declare in the 1896 that one candidate is unacceptable that is william mckinley he's thought to be too close to the catholics. he's smart enough to know that the country is changing rapidly. many of the new immigrants are catholics and not from the normal sources of immigration. they're not from the british isles from eastern europe and southern europe and central europe. he wants to modernize his party

he wants to win, he has to get the vote of catholic voters. urban et knicks. he goes out to do so by i.t. rally taking on the apa frontally but in a very smart way. he doesn't call them names. he doesn't excoriate he knocks them. he's a member of secret catholic set his campaign puts out list of secret societies to which he belongs, the grand army of the republicans. college fraternity. he then on first day of the republican national convention demonstrates that he's in command by not having the traditional invocation offered by a protestant priest but jewish rabbi, deliberately saying to the apa i'm in charge, you aren't. this coalition that he creates for 40 years has a significant number of catholics and urban workers, he's the first republican ever endorsed by member of the catholic

hierarchy. >> dickerson: ump r you were talking about washington and saying cautious risk taker. convincing him to come to the convention, the train of evils must be sorely felt. people maybe are weren't up in arms, he wasn't going to go yet. that sort of smartness about political capital. talk about that a little bit. >> washington was a tremendous retail politics, he knew people, he was dignified but he wasn't aloof. he had the sense about where the country was going, he knew that in the years after the revolution, before the new country, that a stronger government was needed. we needed national market economy, that required central government that controlled interstate commerce. we needed a strong country that could raise taxes and build military bus we needed national defense. he showed the issues were economic progress, and respect overseas of strong military, national security.

and realized the country had to be ready to buy that. idea of the new constitution which he strongly supported from the time of the revolution. had to be popular sense. how to bring the people together, he knew he only had limited capital from the revolution. he had to wait for the time was right, timing was right and build together large consensus. he would only go when he had a vision of what could happen, cautious risk taker. waiting for the right time to build consensus. that's what he did. >> dickerson: presidents have good sense of timing. do you see in our current political moment something one of the presidents you've written about would grab say, this is what they would do. >> i think two things. two of the guys that, one fdr, think about how confusing isiss we don't even know where they are, we can't figure out on a map where they are. in 1942 we were in similar

situation, we lost the asian theater he he says i want everybody to get a map in front of them for fireside chat i'm going to point out why this is a different war. why it has different methods why you have to care about what's happening. because it's our security we're going to get through this. unlike anything i've ever seen, more maps in that room than ever. even the guys who didn't like map, i want to watch what fdr is going to do or listen to him. we should do that now. we need to understand from our president where isis is, we need to look on our maps, have to figure out where it is, what we can do about it how it's going to affect us. >> dickerson: we're going to have this conversation and continue online. thank you all for being with us. there's lot more i can talk about unfortunately we'll do that right after the show, it will be posted later on "face the nation" website. we'll be right back.

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>> dickerson: until next week for face the make i'm john dickerson. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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