is termed the principle of our understanding and awakening. oh, my beloved god - >> oh, my beloved god. >> mysterious one - >> mysterious one. >> and through this hour - >> and through this hour. >> come i unto you - >> come i unto you. >> and of the days that follow - >> and of the days that follow. >> this splendid night - >> this splendid night. >> of all that i learn - >>of all that i learn. >> of all that i gain - >> of all that i gain. >> i experience - >> i experience. >> as truth - >> as truth. >> of that which i learn - >> of that which i learn. >> i command thy light - >> i command thy light. >> to manifest these truths - >> to manifest these truths. >> all the days of my life - >> all the days of my life. >> even unto - >> even unto. >> two hundred years - >> two hundred years. >> so be it - >> so be it. >> drink!

>> drink. >> and so ramtha opened his school here, and started out with a small group of people, and he's taught them how to become god - the first step in being masters of their life. and i really dedicated my life to that end. every day, every night, the people who wanted to learn, he taught them, and they were worthy of that, because they were free thinkers. so i had come to the conclusion that this wonderful divine, brilliant, beautiful being didn't have a message for everyone - only a few, who heard, who resonated, who saw and felt a value, and were ready to learn, and therein is where

i focus my efforts on ramtha and his school, taking common people and having him educate them, a broad level of education - from the sciences to biology to psychology to theory, religious dogmas, historical information, science - the whole spectrum. and teaching it in such a way that it was never above their heads, and allowing them, then, to apply that knowledge in disciplines that he taught them, and he showed them that god does in fact live in them. so they're called masters - they're mastering their humanity, for the sake of the divine greatness, and celebrating life on a new level, a new understanding. and all of that,

as we sit here today, has all been worth living through, finding my own truth, knowing what i know, and willing to live it, no matter what, has evolved me tremendously. and now in reflection, i look back and see that without adversity, we never know our own strength. >> i want to tell you that i love you - >> and we love you. >> - and that you are worth loving indeed, and for you to also understand, coming from social consciousness, for you to re-remember as it were, that your god loves you more than all else, for you are that which is termed the reason for god existing on this plane. and when we understand that that which is termed - that we are loved by point zero,

and that we are held into place by that which is termed the cosmic laboratory glue called love, that there is only one entity to which that love comes, and that is the god which is given that which is termed not only time as a relative place, but vibration's relative place, and matter in its frequency, its relative place, and that you, as that which is termed human being, are loved by that which is termed the very essence and power that gives you life, mobility, choice, decision, existence. so no matter what you do, you will always be loved. >> see, now maybe after that short piece, you get a sense of my enthusiasm in my opening comments, and that's what i meant. i didn't mean to confuse people

by talking about the excitement of being around a new religious movement, but think how many start out with a charismatic leader, with an extraordinary story, with the promise, as we've seen, of new answers to profound life questions, and then you bring in incredibly committed people who are willing to make the sacrifices in order to realize this vision. i mean, if you went down through the great beginnings of the world traditions, you see those qualities. and that's what i'm talking about. even if the ramtha school of enlightenment doesn't last a generation, the qualities are still there, and that's why it's so exciting from the experiential dimension. but i have to be quiet, because i bet you have a million questions, and we were going to start with janet here. and pavel will help out best he can. >> it seems to me that when you talk about this energy, and using the parts of your brain that no one uses usually, it seems to me that it reminds me a lot of tai chi masters that i've heard of who use chi gong, which is an energy also

associated with the front; yogi masters, who can also use their aura and sense things, like finding the entrance to a maze. it seems to me that there are some very old traditions also that use these very same techniques. >> right. when houston smith came to the school to visit and see ramtha's teachings and see some of what was going on there, he said, "you know, this is not new age. this is very ancient teachings here." so you're right. i think there's threads of what we learn here in all of the great religions of the world. and i think also that there are specific things that are taught here that are not taught anywhere else, and that you can't find in the other religions. for example, the breath technique itself, it's not really one that has been found - the closest thing to it is hatha yoga, from what i understand from religious experts. and there is something called the blue body which ramtha teaches, a blue body healing technique, which deals with

some of the higher, subtler energies in the body that are available to us, and we've had remarkable healings occur with people, from this work, and that's something that's not taught anywhere either. >> yogis - yeah, they do use yoga for healing, quite phenomenally, and the tibetan medicine men also use those kinds of techniques. >> oh, right. no, i'm not saying that they don't; i'm saying the blue body healing technique is not - it's not a yoga technique. >> not that particular one. >> right, that one. >> i might jump in also and say that jz has become comfortable, through ramtha's guidance, using the term the gnostic - a gnostic school. and if you know something of that term, that's a very, very ancient path that has many different meanings, and i can imagine why someone might be troubled, because it can mean a number of different things. but one thing it does of course mean is sacred teachings, special teachings, teachings that help you grow out of a limited state into what you might call self-mastery in this context. sure, barbara. >> i found myself

enjoying this early, enjoying in the sense that i participated with what i was seeing. there is such a permission to do your best, an expectation that you're more than you think you are. i mean, it seemed to me a very creative and very worthwhile - >> well, you're very open-minded. >> right. - an area that people would be drawn to. so this is what i was going to ask you: word of mouth? how did you begin with that number of people? i mean, you're not going to put an ad in the paper. >> no, there was never any marketing or aggressive proselytizing of any kind, and i don't think anyone in this school would really want to do that. i think that you share it with your friends, the people closest to you, people you love - you want them to experience what you experience - and it's kind of grown that way. ramtha did teach - jz did tour the country

in the early '80s, and there was quite a number of people that responded at that time. when the school started, it started with - i'm not sure of the numbers - but it remained pretty consistent at about 3,000 people. >> immediately they drew that many? >> i think it probably started with about 1,500, just from people that had been going over the years and wanted to get into a more rigorous training. i know i did. i mean, i was asking him, "when are we going to learn these things you've been talking about?" and so he started the school with a core of committed people. there's a core and then there's those other people that want to come because they're curious and they want to see what their friends are doing. but i think that there was a real strong core of committed people that really wanted to do this, and at a time when it wasn't popular either - i mean, when people that really wanted to do careers and have relationships. i mean, they had to make this the most important thing

to really make it work, and of course the fruits can be seen now. does that answer your question? >> very much so. thank you. >> and i might just add my observations. the students come to the school, they don't stay at the school. they'll come, as pavel said, for a week, perhaps as long as a month, but they come and then they go out into the world. and i've naturally in my travels been to a number of new religious movements or totalistic movements or something nonpejoratively we might even term a sector or a cult that we'll get to later in the semester. but nobody at this group ever grabbed me by the arm and says, "sign up," "we want you on board; you need this." nothing like that at all. people are there because they want this training, and because then, as far as i can tell in my conversations with many, many, many different people that didn't make it on the video tape, they see positive aspects in their lives. and so that's - there was an integrity about my stay there

that oftentimes is not there, unfortunately, when you are walking around in a totalistic spiritual environment. >> we have 23 different countries represented in the student body and 44 states currently, and i think that right now we're having an increase of students again. we had our largest beginning event ever, which was 700 people recently. and right now we're having an event where there's about 1,800 people. altogether, there's about 3,000 - plus students in the world, and they come from all over. >> now i promised julie - you have a question? >> as kind of an analogy, i remember when i was in my youth, reading about helen keller quite a bit, and it just seemed so natural that there's so much inside people that they don't use. if you could imagine being blind and deaf from day one of your life

and learning what she learned, and she was such a lesson to everyone that we all have potential - we have so much. >> well, there's a great singer right now - what's his name? the tenor. >> oh, yeah. >> oh, andrea - >> he was blind - he became blind, and instead of becoming a victim and saying that, "my life is over, why don't i just can it," he not only got a law degree, but then he went on to become what has been called by pavarotti to be the greatest tenor in the world today. >> that's the kind of thing that you gain there is, "it's your life! do something with it, and move along with it." >> i have a question. i'm trying to clarify this in my mind. is this ramtha like a spirit that enters jz's body? and that's the spirit talking through her to the people?

>> what he considers himself to be is much more akin to the warrior gods of the hindu religion - a very, very ancient understanding of these divine beings. he's got a fully operational brain in his lifetime and went beyond the human realm, to the divine. he can assume jz's body and work the body through the seals within the body, which science is only now beginning to understand about the ductless glands in the body and the seals, the energy centers in the body. he can operate her body. she abdicates her body completely, which makes her a pure channel. >> she wills him into her body when she's in front of a group, then? >> yes. >> and this happens - >> she leaves her body. she goes down through the tunnel of light, very much like the people who - well, exactly like the people who describe death experiences or near-death experiences.

she's gone - she has no memory of what has occurred while she's gone - and she comes back sometimes eight, nine, ten hours later, and it's dark out, so she's missed the whole day. her body retains an enormous amount of water for this to occur, because of the very dynamic occurrence. her faces gets real puffy. i just saw yesterday and i said, "oh, i feel for you; your face is all puffed up again." she said, "yep, that's what happens." and she gets an enormous fatigue from the whole process. it's an enormous amount of energy coming through. >> i told you this was going to generate a lot of questions, but we have one last roll-in i want to get to from our experience at the school, and this is an important one, because it in part answers this question about some of the changes that jz undergoes and the scientist that came out to measure these. also in part, something that always happens with new religious movements or new spiritual movements, the established religions

on the block turn an eye to it. and as you can well imagine, it's a rather long and arduous story that jz mentioned, that she'd struggled, she'd had adversity. and what we have is pastor walt stowe, who is the pastor at the local calvary baptist fundamentalist christian church, who has a very different opinion on what's going on with jz. and we went out and we'll meet pastor stowe later when we look at christian fundamentalism, and i want to say the man was sincere, the man, also has a kind of integrity. but as you can well imagine, it's not ramtha that jz is channeling, but someone from his own mythological background. so if we could listen to, first off, reverend stowe, and then how the scientists see this phenomena. ♪ singing

>> i think, in response to your question, how do we account for what she's doing - do we believe it's out and out fraud, you know? possibly, there's some of that involved. i think 60 minutes did a program on her that brought out that possibility. we also believe in demon possession, since i believe the bible and the bible has a lot to say about people who are demon-possessed, being possessed by an evil spirit. so if she's being possessed at all, and being channeled for anything at all, it's for a demonic being, and he's conned her into believing he's ramtha. even she herself had some doubts when this first came up - this bright, shining light, she was afraid of it. she knew the bible said satan is transformed into an angel of light, but she couldn't get any help from her denomination, i think, which was the assembly of god. and she got some spiritualist

to straighten her out and explain to her what was happening, and so somebody said - had all these scientists come over a while back, and they checked her out, her pulse rate and all this. i have a thing here on shamanism, where it says the shaman goes through the same thing when he's being possessed - his heart rate quickens, d he gets superhuman strength, and something's really happening there - what is it? is it god or is it the devil? and we believe it's the devil, all right? and we believe - the bible teaches us we limit our understanding of spiritual truth to what god tells us in the bible, and not to some outside source, which is typical of cults, by the way - they always have some authority other than the bible. >> what happens to me is that i acknowledge - there's seven energy centers in the body, that in eastern philosophy,

they call them chakras. ramtha argues with that. so the chakra is when two points of energy line cross, and at that crossing - it's called the crossing - we have matter that is formed from that; it's called a chakra point. so he said that the seven centers in the body are not chakras; they're called the seven seals, and they're referred to in the book of revelation - they're the seven churches, the seven candlesticks, the seven seals, the seven angels. and he said, and those are in your body, and they're at different points in your body. the pituitary is the great seventh seal - it's at the top of the brain; we actually use it here. the pineal gland is the sixth. the thyroid - the center of the neck - is the fifth. the fourth is the thalamus - the heart.

the third is the solar plexus region, which really takes in your adrenals. the second is your reproductive area. first is your sexual organs - it's your first seal; sex consciousness, pain consciousness, power consciousness, love consciousness, truth consciousness, master consciousness - where all your energy is in your mind, rather than in your body. he said before you leave, you have to open them up, which i do. i open them up, and by that time, the energy's moving through my body, right up the back of my spinal column, and in a way, to sort of simplify this, that is a disconnecting process of my integrated energy of my spirit, taking with me, in a rapturous flow, my soul.

the soul is lodged right here - it's not the heart; it's the space beside the heart. the soul is caught up in the flow of this rapture energy, moves up - so i'm actually pulling the self out of the body, and in a moment, i pop right out and there's a buzzing sound in my head, and i'm right up above my body; i can see 360 degrees. i don't have eyes - we really don't. our computer has eyes, but at the spirit, we're all spirit - we have total vision. and at that time, there's ramtha, and i move through a hole that looks like a large tunnel, and you're moving very rapidly through this tunnel. you see this little pinpoint of light. you're moving very fast to this light, and it gets larger and larger and larger. i call it a tunnel because i perceive that in this

black room that it's a tunnel. in reality, it's actually a wormhole to another time. i move to this wall of light, and the moment i hit that wall of light, i come back. >> it happened one summer, about a year and a half ago. he and a couple of his colleagues with him, and some others came up. they brought a set of instruments, and they monitored a whole set of different body functions of jz going in and out of trance. and i was there the first time they did it - it was, to say the least, rather spectacular. i was watching the monitors as the things were changing, and as jz went into trance, we could see the little squiggly lines on the monitor actually jump off the screen.

and then there was this pause, because the machine had to recalibrate itself to continue the monitoring, and it happened both when jz went into trance and when she came out of trance - when ramtha came in and when ramtha left. now, i saw the jump, but i didn't at that point know the details of everything they were doing and measuring. but what in fact happened is that they were measuring eight different body functions. what they knew from biofeedback studies was that a yogi could change two, maybe three - if they were related - body functions, simply by an act of will - they train themselves to do that. but no one could change all eight. and what we saw happen was that all eight of those functions

changed within a second or two, literally, all at the same time, as the change in jz took place. this was a startling kind of physiological monitoring that went on. they replicated it two more times, so they had three different tests, and the same thing happened each of the times. the basic results from that is she couldn't fake the change. so whatever's happening, she's not doing it - it's something that's happening to her. in other words, she couldn't be a fraud - there's just no way. that laid that whole issue to rest. >> now that last gentelman speaking is, of course, j. gordon melton, who was instrumental in pulling this conference together, the author of the encyclopedia

of american religion, and what he said was rather astounding, and not just within that community but pavel could attest to this, all the major newspapers in the seattle area covered this, all the major tv stations, and the predominant headline was, "jz knight not a fraud," or, "woman who channels ramtha cannot be a fraud." and so interesting with pastor walt stowe - i mean, within his mythology, that's the only way he can explain it - the power of belief, the power of behavior. and those two - it's a culture class, it's a mythic class. but we have a mere four or five minutes left, so let me get to your good questions for pavel while we have him here with us. yeah, al? >> yeah. all night i've heard, "don't try this at home." but, can i? >> there are some books, and there will be a video coming out that does have a beginning consciousness and energy workshop on it,

which if that's your introduction to it, i still encourage people to come to the actual school. it's a whole different experience to be actually there in the energy, with a teacher of this stature. and i think that - i mean, that's my own personal recommendation; the school does not have an official opinion on it yet. >> is there any danger to trying it at home? >> with the video, i would think you'd be okay, but we don't - we haven't really come up with an official position yet. >> well, why don't you give it a try, and if you're not here next week, we'll have our answer. >> shirley macclaine has written books about the chakras. has she been to the community at all? >> she was at one time. before it became an actual school, she was a student of the ram. >> yeah, jamie? >> what does it cost to attend the school? >> various prices. >> you have three levels of beginning classes. >> right.

i think the beginning weekend is $250, and it goes up - i think a week-long event is about $1,000. it's structured as three classes the first year, and then after that, there's two classes per year to stay consistent in a group, so twice a year. and there's optional events that, of course, people can take as well. >> i see some symbolism, some definite things in this ramtha stuff. the star, with the red and the blue, could you explain that? and the name ramtha, as, you know, definitely, like students of the ram, and students of the ramtha. >> i don't know if we have time for all that. >> how about we take on ramtha, and then later we can put in the study guide what the various

symbols mean. so how about just the name itself? >> okay. well, the name ramtha is a name that he had from his lifetime, which he says he never died, that he ascended in his lifetime. after 63 years of a great march that conquered two-thirds of another world - he was a warrior, and a brutal warrior at the time. through a sword, through a betrayal, he had a sword thrust in his back, and pulled himself together with blood coming down. they were scared of them - they thought he was a mortal then. but actually, he wasn't - he took seven years to recuperate, on a rock, and becoming one with nature. in that time, he learned many of the secrets of the universe, and ascended in that lifetime. he's known as ramtha - the ram - and that is something that is actually mythic, and something that - it's mythic in some religions, but that's the name that he goes by.

>> believe it or not, we are down to our last 20 seconds, and what i'd like to do, pavel, is just thank you for another window into possibility for people who are interested in following up on this, and we'll certainly make more information available for them. >> i thank you for a wonderful class, and this is really the most open-minded group of people i've ever had the opportunity of addressing. >> well, it's the good training, i think. [laughter] they are a good grou well, thank you, pavel. it's good to have you.