personally, i would be delighted if he would, but i don't think we can expect him to. why would you be delighted? because i want to take that hill. would you tell him that? no. that's not his role? no. i don't think so, but anything that would help me i'd be happy for. anything that would make your men feel they were right. that's right. yeah. lieutenant downs, we're taking the hill, but we're suffering heavy casualties, as i told you. in the process of taking it, it becomes apparent to you that this mission's not going to work. now, do you radio that back to headquarters? well, are we at a standstill? we can't move. pinned down, we can't move. and you're losing men.

i'll radio back for reinforcements, tell my company commander what the problem is, tell him we can't move. you won't retreat then. you'll wait for orders. i'm not retreating, we're pinned down. i want a way out to continue attacking. general meyer, he tells you he's suffering casualties, that men are being lost, and there's no way he's going to be able to successfully make it to the hill. but an important fact in this hypothetical is that you know that he's not going to make it. in fact, you sent that platoon out as a decoy, knowing that every single man in that unit would probably lose their life. if mr. downs continues to go forward as he's going, the enemy north kosanese troops will follow that attack, and you'll be able to launch a more successful military reprisal from another unit, from another position. now, when you get that call from lieutenant downs,

will you tell him that he's a decoy? i wouldn't because it's very important that people on missions such as that understand the criticality of their mission to the success of the operation. if they know they're a decoy, they won't do their best. lieutenant downs is a soldier! if i said he was a decoy, he's also a decoy. he may give the soldiers a little different instructions. is that the ethical thing, to deprive him of information? if it's for the greater good in that situation. if it means, in the end, more soldiers are going to live, if it means the opportunity will exist for us to win or lose, the answer is yes. it's a tragedy as far as lieutenant downs is concerned, but military leaders have had to make decisions like that-- gettysburg to wherever it happens to be.

lieutenant downs, do you feel any different now? no, because i agree. that's the role, that's your job. i know it sounds almost cliche, but as a combat officer, you are given orders. you must trust in your superiors when they give orders, knowing in your heart sometimes they're not the best orders, but also understanding that your job is to carry them out to the best of your ability. and as a combat infantryman, you always have that thing inside of your heart that says, "i will make it to the top of that hill." you figure out after many deaths that you're a decoy. would you tell your men? absolutely not. we're there to do our job. we are possibly making it possible for thousands of other men to survive by our action. that's the purpose we're there. we cannot independently make a decision to withdraw

because if we can hold out five more minutes, then it may determine the course of the battle. why don't you tell me, "you're a decoy so that a greater mission is accomplished"? because you're not a decoy you're part of the military strategy of winning, and you, ultimately, will help your country. general meyer? there's one thing you must understand. it's unethical not to be professional at the art of war or not to be professional at any art. i am assuming in this situation that we have already decided that from a professional point of view this is the best way to employ the force in that situation, and that element that's being used in that area contributes to the greater good. lieutenant downs, one of your men just doesn't accept this. he can see his buddies dying left and right.

he says, "this is suicide. i'm not fighting. i'm not going forward," and you're ready to move. i'm ready to continue attacking. "i'm not going!" i'll order him to continue. "i'm not walking in there. this is ridiculous. men are just being murdered!" there's no time. "i'll stay here." i'll hit you with my rifle and threaten to shoot you. "i'm not going!" in that case, i've already given the order. i told you what would happen. we're under fire. i'm thinking. the men are looking at me. i've got stress that's unbelievable. i've got to take that hill. i'll kill you. you'll shoot me. i'll shoot you to save these men. this is not a situation in which i have time for argument, discussions, nothing else but follow me expressedly to my order. if i have to kill you to save men, i will.

i'll face that in a court-martial and explain myself, but i know at that moment in time, i've got to make that decision. i'll live with it. but you are dead. well, you've got a different situation. i'm not angry about what's going on, i'm terrified. that's right. so am i. i'm a second soldier. i'm scared. i can't move. i can't move! what soldier are you? you're the second soldier? have i shot the first one? absolutely. i'm really scared now. yeah. you should be. you should be because i'm going to drag you up the hill. i won't threaten to shoot you. every man is a different decision. you don't want to go up that hill. i'll probably grab you and drag you up. i'll do things to you. i'll hit you. is it wrong that i'm afraid? no. i know you're scared, but i'm scared.

we're all scared. that's the fact of combat. but being scared is no reason to stop. i will not allow it. mr. jennings, you're there. i thought you were going to do that. oh, i wouldn't have a newsguy near me in a situation like this. well, we do, unfortunately. unfortunately, mr. jennings is there, and you see lieutenant downs trying to take control of his men, and you see this soldier refusing to go forward. you've got your camera. that's why he wouldn't be with me. what will you do? i would try to stay out of the officer's way. i would try to capture as much as i could on videotape. why would you film this lieutenant shooting a private, an american soldier? to use one of the great journalism cliches, because it's the first rough draft of history.

we are witnessing in that little corner of the globe an historic moment in what may or may not turn out to be an historic struggle. and my job and my camera team's job at that point is to record history. the reason i'm staying out of his way-- because i don't want to make any judgments. general westmoreland, do you want mr. jennings there filming this lieutenant trying to maintain order over his men? well, if mr. jennings is on the battlefield with his cameramen, he is not going to be welcomed in that platoon because it's not only mr. jennings. you got a sound man, and you got a photographer, and that is going to give away downs' position. i may complicate his job, but i'm not in a position to give his position to the enemy. i'm part of the unit. what i'm saying is, you don't belong there,

and the combat troops don't welcome you there. i've been with this unit for some time. though lieutenant downs has been a little difficult, i got to know the men. even he doesn't think i'm the worst thing to come down the pike. he's not thinking too much about me, but about his man. i'm staying out of his way. you may be there by happenstance, i admit, but since i've got the floor, i'd like to make a few points. he...allegedly gave orders that he would take no prisoners, but i would like to ask him this. you attack the hill, followed by an artillery and mortar preparation of that hill. you perhaps may have had a psychological warfare unit there broadcasting to the troops, "lay down your arms and you'll be safe." so you attack the hill,

and suddenly you see a lot of the soldiers of kosan throwing down their weapons and holding their hands up. you're not going to kill them. that's right. that's a different circumstance. and my ultimate goal, always driving me, is the mission and my men. now, given the circumstances that general westmoreland just said, yes, he's correct. i would never give my men that order. but i don't see that hill in front of me as an unarmed person. i see it as a hill of soldiers who initiated action against us. a moment of time between being wounded and between being weaponless to me is an esoteric discussion. i'm going to kill the enemy and take the hill. i'll pay the consequences later. and if i win, then sometimes that's the best judgment of all. but it doesn't mean you're ruthless or heartless.

it does mean, though, that you have set up a tenure among your men ahead of time. they're counting on you to help them survive. they don't want their wife or their mother to receive notice they've been killed. i don't want them killed because i made a decision-- "we'll take prisoners. we'll let the wounded go"-- because sometimes prisoners have weapons underneath their clothes. sometimes wounded use that as a trick. i don't want to put up with that. i won't take that gamble in this instant of time. let me make sure everyone understands. the military ethics is that we don't kill prisoners or the wounded. we don't shoot our own troops. it's moral. i think it generally in best interest, even from a self-serving standpoint, whether it's intelligence information, whether it's to get other enemy to lay down arms.

but there are circumstances. we should recognize that they are dire circumstances. they are history in the making in this dire cir-- i don't know of any case in world war ii where we had a commander shoot one of the troops. he takes on a great reonsibility. he's got to protect his troops. he's tried to take that hill. he does what's necessary to do it. it may involve killing prisoners. but he has to recognize that that goes contrary to the basic ethics. and it may involve killing a soldier. even killing his own soldier. and he's got to recognize and live with the consequences of that. but he's willing to take that risk if there's a court-martial or whatever. so there's a great responsibility on this lieutenant going up there. mr. wallace, mr. jennings tapes him shooting an american soldier

who refuses to go forward. he sends it to new york. you get the tape. any reluctance to air it? i will look at it, obviously. i'd talk to him. i will investigate it. i will do as much background as i can. it doesn't have to be a quick decision, first of all. there's no deadline. nobody else has this film. we can take time and decide how to do this. my hunch is that eventually, yes. you'd air it. let me hear what you'd say when the tape shows lieutenant downs holding this gun and shooting the private. what would you say? how would you explain it in three minutes? this is on 60 minutes where we have 15. and you know something? that's very important, really, because if you'd have enough time-- you wouldn't put it on the evening news, i don't think.

you'll take the time to edit it properly, understand it properly, and background it properly. and the discussion going on around this table is what'll go on in the editorial conference among the various people who are involved. my hunch is that in the long run, the decision will be made to go with the piece... under the rubric of "war is hell, but let's understand what can take place during war." let's understand. these are people who are charged with doing a job. downs is charged with doing a job. the young man who was killed-- we understand families. the hill had to be taken. i, i--this, this-- i can see days-- not a quick understanding-- i can see days of discussion, editorially, before this thing is aired. and it'll go to the top. it'll go past me. i'm his boss, but i have bosses.

but my hunch is that eventually, yes, it will be aired. could we hear what you'll say as this tape is being shown? what you'll say is this... "an extraordinary thing happened-- "extraordinary in and of itself "and extraordinary in the fact that we were able to film it, "tape it as it happened. "and we thought long and hard "before we decided to broadcast this. "but because this is the way that war goes "and because this is a circumstance "in which an officer felt "that for the greater good of his platoon, "he had to commit this act under battle circumstances." and for the american people to understand that this is the kind of thing that can go on under wartime circumstances, the american people are entitled to see it-- young people...parents...

washington...the pentagon. i cannot see how you'd keep from broadcasting it. colonel connell, let's assume that we have a report that there's a village where guerrillas are likely to be held. they're hiding. they're being protected by some villagers who are also north kosanese, but they're civilians. and you know that in that village there's a report that a chief guerrilla who is reponsible for killing six men in your unit within the last week is likely to be held in that village. you're the head of the platoon that's sent into this village. what are you going to do? i need more intelligence information about how they operate, what the nature of this village is like, what the terrain-- you've got a village with 200 people in it.

they're all north kosanese. we don't know who's the guerrilla and who's not. the village will be surrounded. if we have no other way to do it, then we're reduced to the crude method of going in and searching the people and houses individually, looking for weapons. searching the people? are you going to search women? ahh...could, could. i wouldn't rule it out. general, you're nodding your head, saying absolutely. why? they can kill just as easily as men. they could be guerrillas as easily as men. now, i'm going into this one little hut, and there's a bed there, there's some drawers, there's some boxes, there's a hole covered with hay. what do you want me to do? what are your instructions to me in terms of what i should look for? i want you to search it as thoroughly as possible to look for any evidence

that the guerrillas are there in an underground bunker or there's any of their equipment there. and i also want you to be very careful. someone at that door says, "we're not guerrillas. we live here." should we stop? no. i don't need a search warrant. you don't? so you completely search the village. certainly. let's say you search the units and reach the hospital. there are some people there who are bandaged. i'd unbandage them to see if they're gunshot wounds. you think they might fake it? yes. is that a humane thing? yes. it's unpleasant, but i think there's a greater good here. i don't think it's a matter of immoral or unlawful. what's the greater good? to find the guerrillas. ok. lo and behold, you leave the hospital, you walk out into the alley,

and there you see scarface, the guerrilla who's responsible for killing men in your unit two nights ago. he's got a gun. he notices you as you notice him. he raises his gun. what do you do? i shot him first. did you ask no questions? no. ask him to drop his gun? no. why not? i don't have time. he's raising the weapon. i'm in danger. what if the gun is at his side and he's reaching for it? i would like to take him a prisoner because he's much more valuable to us alive than he is dead. but my adrenalin is pumping at that point, and i'm very nervous. i'm not sure what i'd do. i hope i'd be calm enough to take him prisoner, but if he made a gesture, he's dead.

what if he swings at you without a weapon? he's dead. what if he's walking away? he's dead-- well, that's too glib. i'd really be proud of myself if i ran up behind him and smacked him with my rifle. then i'd have the best of both worlds. he runs away. i killed him. he's unarmed. it's war. there's no doubt who he is. he's dead. he's unarmed! he'd dead, too. he's running. not for long. mr. jenkins, if you were in colonel connell's position, i'm sure you'd shoot him if he pulled the gun, right? i would. what if he's aching for it? i'd probably still shoot him. what if he's running away? if i couldn't run him down, i'd probably fire at him to stop-- to stop him.

you stop him, wound him. he gets up, he's going again. this is some incredible guerrilla leader we have here. he certainly is. that's why he's scarface. he will not escape. i mean, he's already been wounded. he will be stopped. what does that mean? if i have to, i'll shoot him again. you'd kill him if you had to? i'd prefer not to, but there again, i'm in the same situation. i mean, we're talking about things that take place in a split second. we're talking about an incredible amount of fear that i would have. what are the other circumstances? i'm alone, just this guerrilla leader and myself. there's no one else. we haven't cordoned off this village. if we've done our operation properly, i'm not going to be in this circumstance. somebody there will grab him. i'll just chase him down into that somebody.

and there's no need for it. if it hasn't been planned properly, then i'm going to take the consequences, and i'll have to stop him. no, i don't want to kill him, and i would--without knowing all the circumstances, i'm just absolutely persuaded that i can do that without killing him. if you had to kill him, you would. there's no one else but... it's all you. i would do what i would have to do and what that would be... would be another of the secrets that i will live with for the rest of my life. in theory, loyalty makes life simple,

but the choices demanded by loyalty sometimes conflict with the demands of our own sense of right and wrong. from the lieutenant on the battlefield to the general or admiral in washington, life-and-death dilemmas must be faced amid fear and uncertainty. the soldier must act in the moment, and he must live with his actions for the rest of his life, as must we all. this dialogue continues next week when the subject is "confidentiality and the military." here are some scenes from that program. you can make any man talk. how? torture, if necessary. i'm not sure you can make everybody talk, even under torture. there would be no torture. can i submit, it's very easy to sit here

and say what we would do and wouldn't do. i'm opposed to torturing prisoners, but i'm not sure what i would do. privileged communication in the military is very important, i think, to our future existence, that the soldier can go to someone and bare his soul without any fear that that person will then take that information to someone else. i don't have to respect privileged communication. that's not part of my ethic, it's a part of the religious ethic. i would not violate that, but if i got it, i'd use it. if you want to stick your neck out and jeopardize your safety by trying to go behind the enemy's lines, assuming that they're the enemies of the united states and you are a u.s. citizen-- if you want to take that chance, well, you're on your own.

and you would film the north kosanese shooting the american soldier? well, i guess--i guess i would-- no. i guess i wouldn't. i mean, i'm going to tell you what i'm feeling rather than the hypothesis i drew for myself. if i was with a north kosanese unit that came upon americans, i think i, personally, would do what i could to warn the americans. you're a reporter. granted, you're an american. but you're a reporter covering combat between north kosan, south kosan, and the ally. and i'm a little bit at a loss to understand why, because you're an american, you would not have covered that story. i feel utter contempt. two days later, they're both walking off my hilltop.

they're 200 yards away, and they get ambushed, and they're lying there wounded, and they're going to expect me to send marines to get them. they're just journalists. they're not americans. captioning made possible by the annenberg/cpb project captioning performed by the national captioning institute, inc. captions copyright 1989 the trustees of columbia university in the city of new york this has been a production of...

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