many of my relatives are quakers- mingle with their whole neighborhood. you would never know they're really any different except the girls don't- when i still lived there, anyhow- no lipstick, no makeup, no card playing, no dancing. needless to say, when my father met my mother, who was lutheran, she introduced him to the evils of card playing and dancing. >> yeah, and watch out for those! >> i was attending a party and it was one where we all knew the hostess but didn't know many of each other. so we were talking back and forth, and one woman said, "i'd give anything to meet a quaker." she said, "i've always wondered about the quakers," and i said, "well, here i am. i'm a quaker." she said, "but you don't dress like one." she was assuming the gray- the pilgrim outfit, you know. "but you don't dress like one." now this was three years ago, so i can see people's ideas certainly give a graphic of what they have learned. >> well, another thing, the quakers that i know,

at least, they are called friends. they have renamed themselves friends. and the kids i went to school with after eighth grade would go away to haviland, kansas, and attend the quaker friends high school and college. >> you see what we're drawing in here, yeah, is yet another group of this sort that works with this. and as i said, we could have several different groups. just in the interest of time, let me shift over to the mormons. now i don't want to- you know, we'll have a chance to come back to look at some of these other groups and make mention of them. but you see, we've got the ball rolling here in class, which is what i wanted to do by picking just- not really just any two groups out of the air- but two groups that make us think about just what a challenge it is to deeply religious people to make agreement compromises, a working relationship with the in-world experience. now the mormons, if we could take a peek at them for a minute. joseph smith, jr.,

the founder of the mormons, is one of the most extraordinary stories in american history- truly extraordinary. and what makes it so powerful from the point of view of, well, beliefs and believers, is mormonism- you say mormon, if you're not a mormon, just what i talked about, that level of cliches come up and people start picking here, picking there, doing that. but what you find if you look at the mormons from belief and behavior point of view is an amazing tale of extraordinary zeal that also plugs into the cultural needs of the time. now i like to think about it in terms of if you're going to have an alternative religion- and by the way, just for some background, we're talking about mormonism, starting to give you a little bit of the story, we talk about the prophet, joseph smith. he is living in upstate new york in the 1820s. he's confused because they called it the burned over district- there's so many doctrines flying around

and preachers preaching and pastors preaching, and so many ways christianity is being spun. and he prays and says, you know, "god, help me. which is the true one?" and lo and behold, a divine personage occurs to him- the angel moroni- and reveals these ancient plates that were buried in upstate new york, and he's given powers to translate them. and on these plates comes the book of mormon. and what does the book of mormon do? it places the mormons in the center of god's drama, right on the american frontier, which has absolutely unlimited potential. so you take spiritual power, a divine plan, revealed mythically, supernaturally, to a people who are then called upon to build zion, to build god's kingdom on earth, right at a time- and we're talking here, you know, jacksonian democracy- heading out across the frontier,

building the great nation because god wants us to. well, what are the mormons going to do? they're going to restore the true christian church on earth. so with that kind of mythic power- and you know, we talked about doctrine guiding myth- but with that kind of mythic power behind them, the story then becomes absolutely fascinating in terms of what they were able to put up with. just a little bit more of the history, sometimes i- his plan of course was to bring the group of people together and then head out across the west, out of upstate new york, immediately- you know, we talked a myth here, and doctrine defining myths- but this is one of those stories, the mormons say it exactly happened this way. but whether or not it's true, it gave these people a power to move across to ohio, gather more people, then into independence, missouri, where joseph smith- the center place, the axis mundi, would be independence, missouri. but they developed so quickly. you know, it' another- the challenge of the secular world-

how do they- how does this fit with non-mormons? well, the mormon mores ensued in missouri, and they had to move back across the river into illinois. now has anybody been to nauvoo? yeah, a few people have been to nauvoo. well, that is- certainly, for illinois- it's the site of the greatest drama here, and fortunately, we do have a roll-in coming up here shortly on it. but against all odds, they were able to take this swampy, disease - infested part of illinois here- and we're talking, you know 1839, into 40s - and in a short period of time, built the largest city in illinois- larger than even chicago. but animosity comes in- that secular world. the mormons have sacralized the entire political drama, and they're running the show, according to their mythic reading, and how doctrine spins on it. but the other residents of hancock county didn't quite see it that way, so depending on whose story you listen to, joseph smith is arrested

and taken down from, you know, from nauvoo into carthage, where he's actually assassinated. let me take you- we do have some graphics up here- let me take you through some real quick ones on my five p's of prophet, and then we'll come see a roll-in on this. but first off, i've already mentioned it, joseph smith is the prophet; he is the leader of the mormons. the next one, if you have a prophet, you have to have a promise, and the promise in this case was from the angel moroni, and the angel says, "here's the book of mormon. head on down the pipe." next you've got to have a plan. after you have a plan, well, the plan is nothing less than to build zion, to build the kingdom of god on this planet. and we've already talked about that old testament covenant idea that god had brought peoples here to build god's kingdom in the latter days-

the latter day saints. well, what joseph smith did is to sort of supercharge it with high octane fuel, to make it even more amazing. the possibility was the fact that we have unlimited territory, the people are energized to do it, and we've got the frontier, so there's a lot of space to move on, and move on they did- as we said, establishing great communities like nauvoo. and finally, the place. well, the place today, just to run that down for you, the place, of course, is utah. after the death of joseph smith in carthage, most of the mormons, after continued harassment, followed brigham young out to utah- that becomes zion for them- and today, that's the latter day saints. there is 8 million latter day saints; it's a very, very large movement. so we have 8 million folks in the latter day saints movement. the second group is, with 250,000, are the reorganized mormon

church, and they still hold to the independence, missouri, is the center, and they have followed the descendants of joseph smith. thereafter, there's several other different sects, but the idea here is that the place becomes utah, the place becomes independence, missouri, but there's more- something like maybe 200 different sects that continue to split off because of different doctrinal disagreements. as you can well imagine, one of the most difficult- well, one of the most controversial doctrinal teachings that came out of a revelation joseph smith had in nauvoo was the question of polygamy- of plural marriage- and that has continued to trouble the church. and today, most of them are left alone, but there's many, many existing separate fundamentalist mormon polygamous sects that exist in the world around us.

so what i'd like to do if we could is we have an interesting roll-in at nauvoo. and what they're doing is they're restoring the nauvoo settlement, and we had a chance to go down there, we talked to elder andrus, who answered some of these basic questions on mormonism. so if we could, let's go to the nauvoo roll-in. >> this majestic portion of the mississippi looks pretty peaceful on a crisp autu morning, but about 150 years ago, it was the site of illinois' greatest religious drama- the exodus of the mormons from their otherwise successful town in nauvoo. the nauvoo saga is not just illinois' greatest religious drama- it could be a religious drama for all times. what zeal, what zeal the mormons demonstrated, in terms of their belief. belief and behavior- once again, one of the powerful dimensions, doctrine in all worldviews. look at the mormon story. from the time of joseph smith's revelation back in new york,

all the way across to missouri, they encountered many, many, many types of harassment from otherwise good citizens of the united states. and moving back to nauvoo, they established one of the greatest centers in all of illinois. but the harassment didn't end. in 1844, joseph smith was martyred at the carthage jail, and for two years thereafter, the mormons were harassed by citizens of hancock county. on the frozen night, february 4th, 1846, men, women, and children- mormons had had enough- and some walking on actual ice, some going on barges, moved across this river towards their eventual home in utah. without that connection between belief and behavior, the power of doctrine, mormons may not ever have survived, and we wouldn't have this major worldview today. i'm sitting at the

latter day saints visitor center in nauvoo, illinois, sitting with elder garth andrus, and he's going to give us insight into the mormon religion and the powerful presence of nauvoo for mormons in this area. elder andrus, let me start out with a simple question. where does the term mormon come from? >> well, the term mormon is a nickname, and it arrives because of the book of mormon that the latter day saints have as a part of scripture, which was received through joseph smith when he received the plates to translate into the book of mormon. >> maybe it would be helpful just to know a little bit more about joseph smith, and then we can talk something of the doctrines that are unique to mormonism. >> well, joseph smith was born in new york, and as a young boy of 14 years of age, he was studying, reading the bible, and he came across a scripture in james that said, "if any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask it of god." and at that point, he was verconfused, because he was being taught

by this church that they were right and this one was right and this one was right, and his family, even his own immediately family, are members of different churches. and he wanted to know which was right and he came across that passage of scripture, and so he went, then, and prayed to the lord to answer his questions, which church should he join. and that was when he received the vision, or the appearance of the heavenly messengers that told him that none of the churches were right at that time and that they would give him further information. >> what happened in nauvoo, and then what does this spot mean to a devout mormon? >> well, in the first place, the saints were run- actually expelled out of missouri because of their religious beliefs, and they came here to nauvoo. now at that time, nauvoo was a swampland- infested, mosquito swampland- and they came here looking for peace, really. and when they came into nauvoo, the place that they could-

nobody wanted, in reality. so they came here and they proceeded, then, to drain the swamp and make it a place that they could live. now the word nauvoo is a very interesting- it was commerce at the time they came here, and then that was changed to nauvoo, which is a hebrew word meaning "beautiful place." and joseph smith then changed the name from commerce to nauvoo, and they came here in 1839, from far west missouri. and then they were here from 1839 to 1846. when the persecution became heavy again- they were growing fast in number- nauvoo became this, well, almost as large as chicago. believe it or not, at one time, they had 11,000 - plus residents here in nauvoo and chicago was 12,000 - something, and they were growing much faster than the surrounding areas in hancock county even. and so they also had a special

charter that was given to them by the governor of illinois that gave them special rights, and i guess they had privileges that other people were concerned about, and so there was a lot of persecution because of their beliefs and the fast, rapid growth, and i think there was some intimidation in other areas. >> and what are the doctrines that make mormonm ique? i know it has to do with restoring the true apostolic church, but maybe you could outline a little bit more for us. >> well, the church is organized after the same existing organizations existed in christ's church when he was here upon the earth. and of course, it's the church of jesus christ of latter day saints, or the "church of jesus christ in these latter days" is the meaning of the name, and it's organized- like christ had 12 disciples, and so there's 12 apostles today; there's the first presidency and there's the 12 apostles, who are profit

seers and revelators and receive direction from the lord in regard to the needs and responsibilities of the lord's work here upon the earth today. >> okay. in one segment of this course, we're talking about different kinds of doctrines, and i was reading through the current encyclopedia of american religion and simply counting up the different varieties of mormonism, and i actually found 43 different groups that claim to be mormon in one sort or another. can you help me out a little bit on why there might be this variety? >> yes. there have been a number of spin-offs, you may say, or fragments. for example, first when the saints left nauvoo, at that time, there were those that did not follow the leadership of brigham young- they didn't go west with brigham young- and they stayed behind and they organized what they call the reorganized church of jesus christ of latter day saints. and that was the first spin-off, and there's been numerous ones since that have fallen off, just like in the catholic church

or any other church, and organized their own. that's where you come with these different factions. >> okay. let me turn to another subject. it's, well, not the most pleasant side in religion. there always seems to be misconceptions people have of religions when they're outside of them, and one that keeps coming up, somewhat embarrassingly, when you discuss mormonism is people say, "oh, those are the people who practice polygamy, or did practice polygamy." can you set us straight on some of these misconceptions? >> well, yeah. there was a period of time that yes, they did practice polygamy, and that was after- in fact, during the time that they were here, as they were starting to trek west, they were petitioned by the government to form a militia- or not a militia, but a battalion- and they sent the mormon battalion out, which was several hundred men. and consequently, they had many women- they had far more women- and there was nobody to look after them or to help them,

protect them, and provide for them, and at that time, they did practice polygamy, and it was more to provide for single women, or families that have been left. in fact, some of those were families that had been left without a husband or a father, as the case may be. and that took place until after they reached salt lake valley, and then later on, then it was against civil law, and when it was against civil law, they followed that civil law. and since then, there is no polygamy and hasn't been for many, many years. in fact, those who insist on practicing it are excommunicated from the church. so there are no members of the church that practice polygamy. >> okay. another point, it's well l known to people that study religion that mormonism may be the next great world religion- it's so successful and expanding at such a rate. is there any one or two things you can attribute the success of the mormon worldview to?

>> well, yes. i would say yes. one, of course, i think is our great missionary program. they go into all parts of the world and explain religion, and i think, again, that it's somewhat of their beliefs, i think, that attract many people. for example, we do believe in a supreme being. we also, which i think is also impressive to people, we believe that we can be families forever- that through certain ordinances that are performed in a temple provided for that responsibility and offered to us- we can be sealed on earth to families and be eternal families that will come forth in the next life as family members. >> that's a very powerful aspect of mormonism, the family - centeredness at a time when the family is in such a terrible state in america. let me just do one last thing, give you a chance to say anything else you might want folks to know about mormonism, any points we might have missed, anything that you mit think would beul

in understanding the worldvi. >> well, i would just, i guess, sathis, that it's a very family-oriented religion, and that we firmly believe that it's a family responsibility to look after people. in other words, the first responsibility of a person is not to go to government welfare, is not to be a leech on someone else, but family's are responsibility for their own. and i think that this is a great thing that they've done. you've probably heard of the church welfare program. well, it's not a dole system, like the government system is. it's that people who receive help- and many do- then are expected, when they can, in what they can, to repay back, so someone else can enjoy th same privilege. but i guesi'd say that the big thing is the family-oriented aspect of the church and the fact that we can be eternal families and enjoy those great blessings.

i guess one of t things that also is different somewhat from the latter day saints church is the concept and the belief in the godhead- that we believe that there are three separate beings, god the father, and his son, jesus christ, and the holy ghost, whereas some believe that there is just, there is one, three in one, and we believe that they are three distinct and separate beings. >> well, thank you very much, elder andrus, r sharing this with us and it certainly has helped our study of mormonism and our visit to nauvoo. thank you. >> well, thank you for the privilege. >> now, let me sort a few things out there, because as we were looking at that i saw a few eyebrows go up, particularly when we touched on the element, or he touched on it, the believer- not me- the believer touched on the question of polygamy. we see here a gentleman talking from the perspective of the latter day saints church, and this is the establishment mainstream mormon church with 8 million people

and growing all the time. he kind of pushed off polygamy, as one would expect on tv and as a spokesperson for it, as, "well, that's not done anymore." and in fact, the latter day saints church did outlaw it under quite a bit of intense pressure back in 1890, when the u.s. government was getting nearer to utah and pressuring them. so it's quite true and he says they're excommunicated. but interesting about sacred doctrine and how it plays out over time in a particular group. there are as many as 200 different tiny little fundamentalist mormon sects that do indeed practice polygamy. and why do they do it? it's because of the original revelation that joseph smith had, and they believe that this is a ration that furthers god's plan. they disagree with the conformity- to go back to our amish idea- with the civil law of the united states.

and to show you this, just as i picked up the newspaper and look around for these things in the newspaper, you might have seen this also- another newspaper just two days ago, chicago tribune, i pick up and on the third page, "mormon women uniting to help sisters, wives escape polygamy." and it's a group here called the tapestry of polygamy. rather- you know, one has to be careful here because the latter day saints, the gentleman is quite right, that church does not practice it. but obviously, it's an extremely difficult thing because these women have gotten together and they even have their own website, which i guess doesn't mean much anymore- i'm happy to share that with you. but you know, here's some of the comments that comes out, the difficulty between the secular and the sacred, which we're working here, when people probably, for the most part, legitimately, really believe that they are following the original command that came down in the original revelation. but you know, here's a part of the story. "more than three weeks ago"- and i'm quoting from the trib- "a 16-year-old

girl was found abandoned, belt-whipped, and severely beaten in remote box elder northwest of salt lake city. the girl said she was trying to escape the seven-month-old forced marriage to her uncle- she reportedly was his 15th wife. you know, later you go over here to vicky prunty, who is one of the founders of this group tapestry of polygamy, and on her, she says after ten years and five children, prunty left her husband for a man who had two wives. it took her another four years of despair and depression for her to finally realize that she needed to break out of this. and what an interesting thing, it ends up with a quote from this woman who started this group to help women and children who are in polygamous mormon groups around the country. she says- very interesting from the doctrinal point of view- "i wish we could throw out organized religion." hmm. "i think it pits people against each another. but i have a great faith, and i believe it's in god,

and i don't believe in fighting a battle i can't win." so she's- having suffered through a doctrinal difficulty, her inability to take a doctrine, based on revelation, at least within this polygamous mormon fundamentalist sect- to be able to see that that was enlightening to her, that that was helpful to her, and so she breaks out from it. in my 101 class, another interesting case- maybe it was the "religion in america" teleclass that i'll do through independent study, so most of the students i never see; you know, it's mailed around the country. i asked the students to do a paper on any group in america, and i get this paper back that was so amazing by a polygamous mormon sect that even the fellow who wrote, the encyclopedia of american religion, j. gordon melton, had never heard of- way up in the mountains of arizona. and she made me promise never to reveal her name, to never reveal the name of the sect, and i've kept that promise

and will continue to. but here she told this amazing story of several families that lived up in the mountains in arizona and practiced this. so it's a tension. and when some groups did not believe in the change that the latter day saints, the establishment church went through, they kept the old nonconformity doctrine and have to this date done it- and for the most part, they're left alone by the authorities. any comments you might have? sure. >> my sister lives in nauvoo and i visit very often, and i just would like to say that it was very faithfully restored and is completely restored as the 1840s when it was built, and it's lovingly tended. and when you mention zeal, the zeal is still there in a very large measure. they're very proud and nauvoo is supported financially by salt lake city, to see that it gets monies

to build its various- rebuild its various buildings. and it's thriving, even though the town is not all mormon. and what has fascinated me is when it was built, the people who built it were very, very skilled tradesmen, and they built it in a communal type way, so that each family who came helped everyone build the homes, and then when that house was completed, they went on and built another, and the houses were very well built, and are- it's a wonderful place to visit, to see history very much alive. >> you know, you're so right, and you're hitting very close to home, because my 11-year-old daughter lilly's fifth-grade class went to nauvoo, and being a good parent, i chaperoned along, so i was just there a couple weeks ago, and you're so right about the zeal. and it brings up this fascinating question, we talked about it with myth:

did joseph smith actually find plates revealed to him by a divine personage that revealed a new book and this plan? well, people are going to argue back and forth, and if you go to nauvoo, as you well know, you're going to find the established christians in town, signs everywhere saying, "this is not true. don't believe in mormons," all of this. but it's belief and behavior- beliefs and believers- that is so amazing. and you are so right. i was there just now three, four weeks ago, and the women making candles, the mormon men who are on a mission- you know, they're there for free, utah plates, idaho plates- they're there, working there for free, making horseshoes, showing the kids how to make buggies, how to make soap, how to do all these sorts of things. you sense, and you look in their eyes, the joy that this is really doing something for them. they're not making this up, they're not actors- they're there for free and they're there on a mission. and so one reason why i wanted

to bring up the mormon religion in this context is, like the amish, look what they put up with and how well they do. well, believe it or not, we have run out of time, but therein is the power of doctrine in that tense battle between secular and sacred.