well, i want to say welcome to another session of beliefs and believers. but, it's a sad day folks because this is, indeed, the last class. you know, we've reached the end of the social dimension, and today i hope we'll have a chance, especially from you

wonderful students, to share your insights on what you've gained from the class. i want to ask as we are in the social dimension, i want to just continue along with our discussion of religious diversity and one of the key themes that we want to, i guess leave everyone with is; how do we appreciate religious diversity in an increasingly pluralistic society? we've seen that religion ideally is a force that moves human beings towards unity, towards compassion, towards caring. unfortunately, think about our journey through the middle east, so often those wonderful religious ideals don't pan out in the social arena and not just there. so, we are sort of stuck here. we know that religion does strive to bring out the best in people, we've moved through our six dimensions and tried to see how it might analyze it. sometimes it doesn't work, but we do know particularly in the united states and we have been focusing on that more here, simply because it is such pluralistic society. we know that it behooves us all to develop skills, world view analysis skills

that will allow us to appreciate religious diversity. so, in that small quest, in this final class i want to move through one last set of notes from sociology, from the social dimension and develop a set of neutral criteria for assessing whether a religion is deemed conventional; an established religion in our ecological niche or unconventional. why do that? well, in doing that we'll have a way of approaching religious diversity, in a neutral and open minded fashion. so, we want to do that. we've got a couple of our sparkling final roll-ins and some speeches from some great interviewees, and then most important want to turn it over to all of us here in the class and share some ideas and see since we spoke at the beginning of the semester way back whenever it was; we said that, one thing about beliefs and believers is it's not-- there is no finality to it, there is no conclusion. the ideas that we then we take these skills

move on past school, past education, past college to see them and realize them as much as possible out in the world around us and if so, we may make the world just a tad bit better place. so, that's my little speech. i was supposed to do that at the end of the class, but anyway. let's look at these neutral criteria for culture based conventionality. in other words, here is the idea with this last bit of sociology. could we develop a set of criteria, cultural-- culture base means that we can put these criteria on any different culture, and we'll see the different set of data is going to pop up. it's in one culture, a religion is going to seem convectional and you take that same criteria conventionality and you put it another culture, another part around the world, and it won't seem convectional. so that lets us know, if nothing else, that's it's where we are and the moccasins we are in, we're walking in that

determines what seems too strange, too unusual and what seems normal. and once you make that leap then you can begin to appreciate something that is different without necessarily feeling fearful or threatened or whatever from it. so, i bet you could figure these out on your own, but let's do it a fun way. let me ask you; if you thought what kind of qualities in cultures would make a religion seem more conventional than another one down the street? what kinds of things that that religion has done, or manifested or been might do that? yes, sure. >> there is a church of that kind in every town even those little towns. >> absolutely. >> they are there, every where. >> that's a great one janet and there is more of them; we'll get to that as we go through the list. but exactly, if there is more of something it seems more conventional. as i'm driving my 1932 toyota through the fields of illinois here,

my way up to governor state, which hopeful i won't have to do for the next 50 years. not that i don't like the state, but it's boring. [laughter] >> anyway, yes every town i go through-- we've got probably a little methodist church, or you've got your roman catholic church. i have yet to pull through one of those small towns in mid illinois and find a daoist temple or a ramtha school of enlightenment annex - this kind of thing. not, so that's a key one, familiarity, tradition. other characteristics that? yes. >> one thing in this class, we deal with people seeking religion, seeking god. >> yes. >> and yet on the other hand there is the idea that god seeks man. rabbi heschel had a good book called "god in search of man." and just as abraham, god was always after-- in the bible. abraham through dreams and he says "no not me" and they reject it. that's a way of our god

seeks people. and sometimes you may not be aware of it, but god will tap you. >> and in a way, how is that tapping done? in often times it comes with traditions in the culture that seems religious. so, that'd be another one. anything else, before we bounce down through this list that might make a religion more conventional? yes. >> i found from the things we have to study that culture and religion go together. that you will find the amish clustered together because it was as if their religion led them to stay together. or the amana, is that what they call-- in iowa? >> sure, yes. >> and all the swedish people go in one area in minnesota and therefore they have their lutheran church, i believe it is that is, that's their state religion. >> and that's a good point. and out of that we get tradition. and familiarity, and these are other elements we see in the culture

that would do that. yes, helen. >> how successful it is at meeting human needs from myth and a ritual and a dimension of depth? >> there you go, it has to make sense. and that takes us back to our question about the dilemmas of institutionalization we went through a while back. but it has to make sense; it has to work for people. otherwise, people in a free society such as this one are going to move down the pipe. well, let me just run down the list, because i really think we've actually touched on all of them. and keep in mind now what-- these are neutral categories and we'll see rather quickly probably already picking up on where this thing is going. but if you can apply in one place such as the united states you are going to get a different set of data. you apply them in say pakistan, something else is going to pop up. so, well the first one we've touch on is longevity. something is seems conventional simply been around longer, it's been around and people are used to it. and of course, in this context of the united states, christianity has simply been around longer.

in your good comments tradition is another one. if it's been around longer, the traditions seem more conventional and we've gone back and forth on the various kinds of christian holidays, to some extent jewish holidays these seem conventional. but cindy jones wanders in here and talks about the solstices and i forget the terminology she used for halloween. but these are not so conventional. yes that's it. so those are the ideas that if it is tradition been around it's going to seem more conventional. if it's been around a long time, and it reflects the traditions of the society, it's also going to reflect the prevailing values. and i think that goes back to helen's comments about the rituals have to mean something and the myths have to mean something. so, we see the prevailing values of society. we touched on that, somewhat controversially, when we were talking about the mormons.

and how in that earlier revelation about polygamy cut against the grain of the morays of society and it came down to the established church the latter day saints, eventually deciding to give it up, rather than to press against that and be continued to push into a non-conventional stance. numbers; janet's comment, if there is more of something, it's more familiar; and if you've been around longer and there's traditions and you reflect prevailing values, it's probably because there is a lot more of you. and that's why we'll see religions such as buddhism in this culture that have been around, longer historically, but they haven't been in this particular cultural setting so they may not seem as conventional. and the last, but not least, is tension. if for one reason or another you don't meet the four above there may well be tension. and anytime you have a tension between the religious organization and other institutions in society, then that is going to have

a tendency to push that religion into a more, if not a non-conventional stance, at least a middle ground and we'll talk about that here shortly. see what i want to do, after we go through these initial things, is to lay this grid of neutral criteria down upon the united states and just see what pops up. and, but first, before we do that, what we could do then and here is our example on the graphics, is you take a methodist church in macomb and you are talking about a pillar of conventionality. i mean, it meets every possible characteristic and criteria so when people from outside might come into macomb they see that church, a methodist church, and it's very conventional. you meet someone on the street and they say they are a methodist,-- well that's nice. you say i'm a ramtha devotee and listen to a 35,000 year old master they will go; that's interesting. remember the interesting that says, bye. that kind of interesting.

but then we take the same criteria and we lay that down on a methodist church say in pakistan, and then of course it's going to be unconventional for those very reasons. the question may well be running through your mind and it should, so what? why are we doing this? well, once again, the idea is a way of approaching religious diversity that we can not get all caught up in truth, not true, good, bad, but simply understand that the perceptions of religions, particularly those that are in a minority and are different, we can appreciate that that difference is simply because of neutral factors that are based in the culture. if we applied the same criteria down in, say israel, we had such a struggle with that class. the ethical dimension and i am not quite sure what would pop up, it would be very skewed in that kind of intense environment. but in a pluralistic one

it certainly works here. so what i wanted to do on this graphics-- this is sort of fun in a way because if you didn't-- sometimes i do this as a lecture to a general audience. now you have all become experts in world view analysis since this is the last class. so, you wouldn't be as shocked at this. but it's amazing the prejudices that come when i simply lay down this criteria and say let's look at american diversity and see what's going to pop up. it's amazing the prejudicial kinds of comments that come up; "that can't possibly be a conventional religion, i know those people--" that's the sort of stuff that goes on you see; the tension that still exists in people about looking at religious diversity. but, the way i divided this up is to talk about conventional religions in the united states that respond to this neutral criteria. then suggest a middle ground, nothing is static in the world of religion that there must be a middle ground maybe for one reason or another

it pushes the religion into an area that is not quite non-conventional, but there's concerns. and then of course look using those neutral criteria at a suggestion of a list of religions that are again non-conventional. a number one key point, should have started the whole talk out with that; is that conventional is not-- doesn't mean good and non-conventional does not mean bad. conventional doesn't mean true, non-conventional doesn't mean false. that's where the word neutral comes in it; simply a way of seeing that culture so often determines how we approach and think about religion. so let's just be a little bit aware of culture. janet, do you have a question? >> no, i just wanted to say that with your middle ground, so you are implying there is a range of-- >> yes. >> conventionality towards unconventionality there is a range of? >> i just see, as you would know, well, know by now, i just tend to see all kinds of things on a continuum and i would also say

that religions move along this range. and an example i am going to use is if you walk into a christian science church or christian science reading room in any town or city of the united states, conventionality exudes from it, it just fits that conventional american protestant type mode. but over issues of healing for instance, when, from healing through prayer, when someone dies or some issue has been raised in the courts, that tends to push them along the continuum at least into a middle ground, and in some cases where there has been some severe conflicts and some convictions, particularly involving children it can push them in there, so there is a lot of movement here. also let's not just think about the united states, so that's primarily what we are looking at. you go to cities of los angeles and there is a buddhist temple of one sort or another in just about every other corner next to your episcopalian and methodist church. so buddhism in los angeles is taking on a much more conventional status

where as if they-- well for instance, to flip my examples here, but there are enough muslims in macomb to actually build a mosque and they are going to begin work on building a mosque there. and you know, that is going to be a lighting rod of that conventionality within that predominantly christian community. so you can-- i don't mean to say that you just have to use this grid on huge geopolitical arena; you can take it and put it on your own home town. perhaps even in your section of your town to see how it works out. yes. >> i was just thinking, this was when i was much younger, but i went with a girlfriend down to southern illinois and-- to visit her grandmother. and i being catholic, my girlfriend asked her grandmother, "is there a catholic church around here?" and she said-- first she looked at me funny then she said, "there used to be a catholic settlement a couple of miles down the road." [laughter] >> catholic settlement. [laughter]

>> it was just really, i mean just-- when you grew up near a big city, you don't hear that kind of thing. you just-- it was just very interesting. >> and that's an example i was going to use, but it slipped my mind. you find that in these small towns in illinois you get down there and there is the one church and some towns it's the big catholic church. and that's conventional there. you go there and say, "where's the methodist church?" "well let's see, there is a methodist church down in the car wash down the road, some little back thing next town down the way." they all seem to be seven or eight miles apart. i guess how long it took to ride a horse before your butt hurt or something like that. but the next one down the pipe might have the big methodist church and there you go. so it's interesting and i am-- again when we are thinking about sociology and religion and bringing up some of these terminologies is just kind of a wake up call to watch our feelings,

watch the kind of emotions that raise up this prejudices and so often, it has nothing to do with truth or the goodness of the people within the religious organization and it's just factors that exist in just being aware of them, i think, helps. anyway, if we do this little number here on the united states and i'll move through this quickly because it's just one reading of it and it's, well we can probably debate this 'till the cows come home. it's-- it roughly fits the criterias we've existed. anyway if we are talking about conventionality, because the nation's predominantly christian, we are looking at the major denominations such as lutheran, and roman catholics, and episcopalians and methodists. don't think for a minute these people are going to get along necessarily, they can sometimes fight worse than someone who is different. but you know the church is-- the reformed church, presbyterians, baptists, independent churches, eastern orthodox. primary reason

for conventionality here is it fits the first four things; it's been here longer. we're of course, not making mention of native american traditions who have been here way longer, because that's a whole other story. and of course, you go into other parts of united states and you will find that that is the predominant spirituality, but for the big picture, those kinds of religions that have been here longer are the ones that seem conventional. well judaism, here is an interesting case here with judaism. jews, with the usual anti-semitism have been here since the earliest colonial times. in fact, peter stikensen was he the fellow in new york, those of you who can remember your history. i think he actually put out an edict that expelled the jews from new york at one point. so they endured some-- anti-semitism. but nevertheless, judaism is part of the fabric of this culture and reform and conservative traditions are, unorthodox for the most part,

are very conventional. now hasidic judaism, when judaism moves to the more ultra-orthodox stance, can add some tension, but not to an extreme. so here we are nudging with the ultra-orthodox towards a more non-conventional stance. now here is my middle ground and for one or more differences it could be doctrinal differences, it could be ritual activities, they it's not always an easy picture. in other words, you are liable to find people being more prejudicial towards them and if you end up in one of those conversations you might say, "well, what's really bugging you, what is it?" and then you may here them try to eek out a doctrinal stance of some sort of belief or truth statement. but you scratch down a bit and you find it's probably one of these factors isn't being met in their mind and therefore it pushes them into a level. see anytime you are moving out of conventionality

along that continuum, more tension wells up and there is less acceptance. so whatever-- anyway looking at the religions on the middle ground here, if we go to that next graphic. what we have a list of them here, let me check them over the factors here. christian science is one that i've already mentioned and in terms of christian science with the question of the health is the one that we talked about. here coming up on the graphics, let's go through them. the adventist groups, very traditional, part of protestant denomination but it's that intensity about the end of the world and how sometimes that gets, shall we say, overwrought, when we have the jehovah witnesses who so intensely work towards that

and prosthetise towards it; it can put them in a situation where there is more tension. sure? >> i've always thought that jehovah's witnesses were the same as mormons, they're not? >> (class) no! >> no, now see isn't that interesting-- in some audience the-- here for the tomatoes get that woman, stone her. >> my mother has always said, don't let anyone in. jehovah's witness and no mormons, it's the same thing. >> very, very different. well, there's a lot of interesting similarities and there both 19 century native american religions and they are both bi-lineal in their own way. but the focus on the millennium the idea of the kingdom of heaven theology is just very different. but they both will come to your door, there's no doubt about it, sure. >> i would love to talk to you about what happened. for many months, i had my daughter and her husband from pakistan with me. and they are baptist who go chapter and verse and they quote them so--

he loved nothing more than when the watchtower came to the door and he would stand out there for an hour saying, "what you say is not quoted right now if you look at your bible." i mean they're doing the same things, but it's competition. he knows he's right and they know they are right, so they can spend the longest time dueling back and forth over the very same thing. >> and that creates a certain kind of tension. and we will-- to take us back to our doctrinal dimension, that's the struggle with interpretation based on authority of the bible based on faith. you're going to come up with different answers. yes, janet. >> i think the difference is that, when the jehovah witnesses come to my door they park on my grass and it really irritates me. [laughter] the mormons never do park on the grass. >> tell them you are radical environmentalists. [laughter] >> i have the perfect answer, i'm going to say i'm a quaker one of my daughters is a mormon, i have children overseas as baptist and i have children in china-- so they look at me

and they say, "oh" and then they leave. [laughter] >> i have an even better one; i've got this huge dog. [laughter] it's just part of the situation and this is wonderful because what we are seeing is the kinds of things that cause tension, but are very much part of the whole view. we can take it to the extreme and i'm sure seventh day adventist would be uncomfortable with the relational or the relationship, but we can look to something like the branch davidians as being a cousin, of a cousin, of a cousin of that tradition. so, it can push, waiting for the end of the world and we touched on that, in our look at armageddon; obviously you can create tension with the established society. mormons the very much established denomination but some tension because of differences doctrinally with the established, the older, the longer christian denominations, protestant denominations and again the protestising

in the success itself of the mormon religion sometimes creates these tensions. christian science, we already went through. very conventional, but sometimes the emphasis on faith healing or healing through prayer i should say has resulted in the death, particular of a child which has brought in a legal system, so we get secular sacred tension in there. and now we have a chance for helen to jump in. helen took issue, but i left it on the graphics to give her this opportunity. unitarian universalists; there's a great difference which she's going to explain to us about the top three and unitarian universalists. i put them in the middle ground simply because of something like cups , because they can be- they are so diverse in their beliefs, that sometimes they can be liberal to the point of, legitimizing as it is said in terms of the convention a coven. the coven, we met kate cogen way back sometime in the mythic or ritual dimension,

a coven of unitarian universalists pagans. and so that open mindedness can create attention with a dominant society. as certain kinds of fundamentalists christian groups because of intensity of belief can create tension. one example you can-- be the second largest established protestant denomination in the united states, is the southern baptism. you might remember a while back where they came out with one of their conventions statements that women-- i forget exactly what it was but women should be-- should serve their husbands. now a statement like that, as we're struggling as we have so often in this class to rid ourselves of patriarchal attitudes, that pushes into tension. so we have that element. but helen you wanted to say-- to point out certain things about unitarian universalists. so, fire away. >> okay, though it is not hyphenated and it's not a coven of unitarian universalists pagans it's a covenant.

>> a covenant, okay. >> a coven has a different meaning-- >> oh, sure. >> of wican pagans. >> oh, yes. >> i really feel i owe it to whoever is seeing this, to explain that there are liberal religions which are non-creedal. where you can walk in the door and say this feels at home and you can sign the membership book you cannot walk in to the door of the seventh day adventist, jehovah's witnesses, mormons or christian scientist and just sign a membership book in other words we are non-creedal. and we are not the only ones, there are several groups in liberal religion. virginia here is a member of the society of friends, the quakers, they also are non-creedal and liberal. they don't proselytize and neither do we. and then there's the ethical culture society and the american humanist association and there are liberal baptist who are called modernists, or darwinists, rather-- evolutionist rather than literalists, rather than fundamentalist. and there's the

liberal branch of hinduism and a liberal branch of buddhism. and there's an international association of religious liberals. so in this particular doctrinal dimension, the unitarian universalists don't really fit with the others that you put there. then i would also like to speak to that thing about whether we are conventional or non-conventional? >> fire away. >> we like to think of ourselves as dissidence. we like to say that we are governed by individual conscience. however, the sociologist robert bella recently did a survey of unitarian universalists and pointed out that we're quintessentially american. because most americans believe in individual conscience and most americans believe in independence. and our values are remarkably coherent and remarkably mainstream. they are straight from jefferson, emerson, tharoe and whitman. so, i just wanted to say

that i don't think unitarian universalists are very comfortable on that particular list of middle ground at least from the doctrinal point of view. or perhaps from where-- i think we like to think of ourselves as being unconventional, but we're really much more conventional than we're being told by the sociologist that we are much more conventional and much more coherent than we think we are. but since you did mention cups the covenant of unitarian universalists-- >> and that was the one reason-- to push it over-- not to the doctrinal but the one reason was that, a move of liberal thinking can sometimes create tension that was the gist of it. >> well the fastest growing section, segment of unitarian universalism is the earth based spirituality, which is sometimes called-- neo-pagan and sometimes based on a study of indigenous religions. and we went through a several year battle in our annual general assembly to add the seventh principle to our principles like the first one is inherent

worth and dignity of every person. is that american? >> yes. >> typical. but, the one we had such a struggle adding is respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are apart and then the source that we draw from is spiritual teachings of earth, centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature. so that introduced the indigenous religions of the world along with the ones we've been studying in this course they-- >> yes, i don't know if they can focus in on that, helen. >> the world's great religions. i want to give you this, could i come give it to you? >> yes. >> is this a good time? >> yes, if you can get down here with out falling. >> well, i'll try. i've been getting up and down for 23 weeks i guess things. >> okay. well, thank you. come around here and tell -- they can't really focus in on it but what we have here is an interesting statement