you call 866-359-4334. 866-359-4334. "cyphassange, the book, erpunks." it is not a huge book but it is a witty book in other ways. thedvd of the extended julie assange interview is yours for $75. together, $120. we urge you to call 866-359- 4334. make the call that makes it possible for link tv to happen. 866-359-4334. the book and the hour and have a conversation that we had when julian assange, unprecedented, as he is in the ecuadorian embassy in london.

if he steps foot outside, the british government says they will arrest him and to extradite him to sweden where he may be extradited to the u.s. the british parliament has spent about $5 million in costs for surveillance outside of the embassy. we have more that we are offering as well. we have a double dvd that relates entirely to this. danielmichael moore, ellsberg and others, who gathered at the culture project in new york to talk about the attack on whistle-blowers and journalists. he is a journalist i could andiminalized by speaking he is joined with other reporters, analysts, the intellectuals like noam chomsky, daniel ellsberg and others in the suit against the u.s. government.

is an hour that is also unprecedented. william came into our studio, no fault if you do not know who he is. a top level employee at the national security agency, a number of times larger than the cia, who left the agency, along with others with him because they were concerned about the u.s. government's spying on americans. he felt he was a part of that surveillance machinery, being part of the nsa, a place he had worked for decades. he came to democracy now! to tell his story. he is making a film with julian assange, who has been harassed too many times to count as she comes in and out of airports. she also did a film on yemen before. applebaum, who co-

wrote the book with doing assange. he has had its own experience is coming in and of the country. you will hear us describe this in the hour. this two dvd set, the whole conversation with william and jacob is yours for $100. everything,to get that double dvd, today's extended democracy now! would join assange, and his book, "cypherpunks: freedom and the of is yours for" that a $200 contribution. 866-359-4334. we cannot do this without you. your colleagues in difference. we urge you to call 866-359- 4334. fill these phone lines. we ask you to call and right now, 866-359-4334.

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your call makes the difference. you make link tv happen. please call and let us know you are in the house. today's extended democracy now! broadcast, you heard part one of the conversation with joe and assange. you also get the event at the culture project with michael moore and chris hedges and then the special hour. and the book for $200. the whistleblowers trilogy of dvds and "cypherpunks: freedom and the of the internet,"all yours for $200 if you call 866- 359-4334. make the call that makes a difference. we ask you to stand up for independent media. let's go right now to william. and they give me some background. this was the first interview he did after resigning from the national security agency, the

intelligence agency that is many times larger than the cia. he resigned over the domestic surveillance program. we will get into the interview, but he discusses the ennis a pause massive power to spy on americans and why the fbi raided his home after he became a whistleblower. we also speak with the academy award nominated filmmaker laurel about how she was repeatedly detained and questioned by federal agents whenever she enters the u.s.. she is an international film maker based here in the u.s. with jacobke applebaum, the computer researcher who has experienced surveillance since he was associated with wikileaks. we begin with william bennett describing the ordeal after he designed -- resigned from the national security agency. >> i should say, it was the

morning of the second day after gonzales's testimony to the senate judiciary committee on tsp,- what was called the a fabricated plan, to cover up a number of other plans, one of which was stellar wind, another that they did not want to discuss. they picked up on the wiretapping one because the public would generally say anyone who is potentially a foreign terrorist communicating with anyone in the u.s., we want you to monitor their communications. that was the exceptional part of it, but that was grouped with stellar wind and other programs so that they could give cover to it and talk about some programs, say they are talking about the terrorist surveillance program but it was basically a group of programs which they did not want to talk about he did not want to testify. i believe some of the white house and find gold for the two

on the senate intelligence committee, challenging at the time, that he was not being truthful. >> you live where? >> maryland, four miles from nsa. they came busting in, the fbi, about 12 of them. they came in with their guns drawn on my house. >> where were you? >> in the shower. my son and to the door and they pushed some of the way at gunpoint and came running upstairs and found me in the shower and came in and pointed a gun at me. >> at your head? >> oh, yes. they wanted to make sure i saw it and was intimidated, i guess. >> what did they do at that point? did they begin to question you? taking to headquarters? >> they basically supported us

-- i was separated from my family, took me on the back porch, and they started asking me questions. tellbasically wanted me to them something that would implicate someone in a crime, so i told them that i did not really know. they wanted to know about certain people, the people being rated at the same time, -- those thewere raided, signed complaint. the pentagon inspector general complaint against an essay. talking about fraud, corruption, waste, and abuse. in november of that year. we were the ones that signed it. >> who were the other people that were rated the same day? kirk, andourke,

another. diane had the account. she was monitoring, she was to oversight, real oversight. the others were not. basically, the others were taking with the nsa said verbatim and took them at their word. basically not oversight but diane wood probe and pry into what they were saying to find out clearly what was going on. >> ostensibly, they were searching for who was leaking information -- who had leaked information? >> that was the pretext, yes. i accuse them of being sent there by someone outside the fbi and their body language told me that i hit it right on the head. i could not tell them anything because i did not know anything that would implicate us. >> they were looking for leaks? >> that was the pretext.

the leak was on the new york times. what they're really looking for was intimidation so we did not go to the judiciary committee or senate and tell them, here is what gonzales did not tell you. that is what it was really all about. igo retribution for the dod complaint. >> what is it that gonzales did not tell them? your perspective in terms of what is happening to our security surveillance situation. stellar wind all of the domestic spying. >> we will come back to this conversation. the technical director of the national security agency, which is a number of times larger than the cia. when we come back, we will also speak with a well-known hacker, jacob applebaum, who has

volunteered for wikileaks, a computer security researcher, whose films have been nominated for an oscar. back in a minute.

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. with meat is the technical director from the nsa. he worked with the nsa for almost 40 years, national security agency. we are also joined by an oscar nominated filmmaker, and jacob applebaum, computer security researcher. you two have something in common with each other. every time you come into the

united states by plane, you are stopped, searched, you are interrogated. laura, tell us about your experience, your latest one. >> i have been stopped at the border since 2006, since i started on these films, looking at the u.s. post 9/11. i have lost count how many times i have been detained at the border but i think around 40 times. --this particular trip, lately they have been sending someone from homeland security to question me in the departing city. i was questioned in london about what i was doing. i told them i was a journalist. my work is protected and was not going to discuss it. in this occasion, i landed in york airport. flying, they do passport control inspection at the gate, so they make everyone

de-planing to show their passports. i do not even get to immigration. , and then they take away. -- i haveeen going on been through this several times. what happened in this particular trip, which was very disturbing -- >> just a few weeks ago -- >> i was met by a few agents. when they met me, i took out my pen and paper to note their names and times. i have a record of the questions i am asked, how long i was detained for, the focus of the interrogation, what they're doing to me. on this occasion i took out my pen and i was ordered to do that, and i continue to take notes, and i was ordered to be taken away.

then he tried to handcuff me for not putting away my pen. at that point, i walked over to immigration and took out my pen again to take notes, was ordered again to put it away, and then was taken into secondary screening and i ask to speak to a supervisor, explained i was a journalist. then i was told i could not take notes, that i was free to take notes after i finished being questioned. pennder the theory that the was a weapon? >> yes, they said it was a dangerous weapon. that is with the agent said. in terms of context, you have to understand, i am surrounded by border agents who are all carrying guns, and taking away my pen which they found threatening. this was profoundly upsetting.

then i was taken directly into an interrogation room and questioned. i to come my pen again, was ordered by another agent to put it away. this went on for quite some time. i was told during the interrogation -- i am always asserting my rights as a journalist to not reveal my work, my sources. >> you did a film on yemen, iraq. >> yes, so this detention started after i finished the first film in 2006, about the occupation of iraq. i was refusing to cooperate with an investigation and then he said, it was not an investigation but questioning but i was refusing to cooperate. then i assert my rights. that is not a refusal to cooperate. this went on for quite some time. this is something that has been happening for a while. i have talked about it publicly

but i'm also hesitant because i do not want to jeopardize the work i do. have taken your computers? phone? >> yes, on one occasion. maybe a weekdays, after jacob -- contact the now! homeland security to see why you were detained. we received a reply from the public affairs specialist in new york city for u.s. customs and border protection. mails, due to privacy laws, border protection is prohibited from discussing certain cases. he went on to write, our dual secure safety.

he did not answer our additional questions. >> i guess they should add journalists to the list. >> jacob, your experiences entering the u.s. at various times? >> after the summer of 2010, my life became a little secure hecn it came to flying. i do a lot of flying working with the tour project. after i gave a speech in place of julian assange, i was targeted by the u.s. government. until last four times and i have flown, i was detained every time. sometimes men would meet me on the jet way with guns. >> tell us about the moment that you went to the whole conference, hackers on planet earth. julian assange was supposed to be there, he was not, you stood up. >> hello to all my friends and fans, domestic and international surveillance. i am here today because i believe that we can make a

better world. >> what did you go on to say? >> basically, i went on to talk about how people like bill me to come forward to talk about what the u.s. government is doing so that we can make informed choices as a democracy, i went on to talk about how wikileaks is bordered making that happen. as long as we have classification and secrecy, we need wikileaks, and we need to stand in solidarity together so that people will have the information they need to understand what is actually happening. > you mentioned the tour project. what is that? >> it is an anonymity that mark that injures the people have the right to read and speak without exception. torproject.org. everyone in the world has the right to read and write.

technology, it is possible for everyone to use this anonymity network. it is useful for resisting so- called lawful interceptions. see mubarak's wants to somebody talking to the network, they see that, not that they are posted on twitter. that wase a program developed by the u.s. government? projectnally, the tor is born from ideas from the anonymity community which the military has contributed to, but since the time, it has become a free project software where the u.s. navy has contributed zero lines of code but certainly lots of good ideas. they understand, as others do, that if everyone has anonymous communication, everyone does. if only special people do, you can tell they have special privileges.

you can see who they are. collective runs a number of tors. as long as you get one good one, you get some of the properties you need. this helps people to resist not just waffle interception, but also to resist censorship. if you cannot see inside the communications, you cannot discriminate based on the content. >> in our news have blind to date we said that the fbi seized a computer server at the new facility shared by rise up. i want to go back to your experience at the airport. if you could briefly say -- it has been dozens of times that you have -- >> facility shared i do not flys laura, and she has been at it more than i have. i have been detained in number of times. the first time i was detained by immigration customs

enforcement, put into a special one where they frisked me, guy caught me in a -- uncomfortable way, they took my cell phone, and i am not able to talk about what happened next. we are not in a free country. it took my laptop, give it back. they were surprised that it did not have a hard drive. that threw them for a loop. then they interrogated me, denied access to a lawyer. there was a member of the u.s. army on american soil and refuse to let me go. they tried their usual scare tactics, sort of implied that if i did not make a deal with them, i would be sexually assaulted in prison, which is the thing they do these days as a method of punitive punishments. >> how did they imply that? >> they say, computer hackers like to think they are all tough, but you would not do well

in prison. that kind of stuff. >> what was the main thrust of the question there were asking you? >> they wanted to know about my political views, my work as a journalist. the notion that i could be somehow associated with julie assange, they wanted to ask me questions about the iraq war, afghan war, what i thought politically. they did not ask me anything about terrorism, smuggling, drugs, or any of the customs things you would ask them -- expect them to do. .othing about declaring taxes they denied me a lawyer. they gave me water but refuse me a bathroom. >> what happened to your twitter account? >> the u.s. government, as i

learned when i was in iceland, sent what is called administrative subpoena. this is essentially less than a search warrant. >> what happenedmeta something e data and the third party does not have a chance to challenge. we were lucky in that twitter did challenge it, which was wonderful. we have been putting this in court, and without going into too much detail about the court we lost the state at said twitter had to give the government data. in aggregate is used to paint a picture of the ip addresses that i use, my communications. i am sure bill can talk about how dangerous that they is. >> i wanted to ask william about this issue. when it comes to snail mail, it is very easy for the government to intercept mail, especially in

particular situations. when it comes to phone conversations, you need a warrant to be able to intercept phone conversations. what about e-mail, communications that are now the more dominant form of people around the world? what are the restrictions in terms of mail. >> after the passage of the patriot act, their thempretation, giving license to take all the commercially held data about us, which is exceedingly dangerous, because if you take that and put it into forms of graphing, which is building relationships, social network's for everybody, and you watch it over time, you can build knowledge about everyone in the country. having that knowledge then allows them the ability to

concoct all kinds of charges if they want to target you, like in my case, they fabricated several charges and attempted to indict us on them. fortunately, we were able to produce evidence that would make them look silly in court, so they did not do it. i was basically assembling evidence of malicious prosecution, which is a countercharge to them. theo you believe that government has copies of all e- mails? >> i believe they have most of them, yes. >> and you are speaking from a position where you would know, consider your position in the nsa. >> they would just have to put various devices along points along the network, chokepoints, convergence points, and they could basically take down and have copies of most everything on the network. >> jacob, your e-mail? >> i selectively chose to use public services and i

specifically did that to serve as a warning to other people. i did not use it for any other thing. the u.s. government began asserted in the cases, according to "the wall street journal," that they have the right to all that meta data. with theinteraction fbi on monday were they hinted maybe there might be a national security letter for one of my accounts which is also hosted by google, specifically because i was the canary in the coal mine for the people. >> the nsa has given out hundreds of thousands of those. about them.written if you get one, you are not allowed to talk about it, even that you were handed

a national security letter that said something -- to turn something over. >> that happened in the case of a brave americans who fought and won. >> and some librarians in connecticut and did not want to give over information that you t patrons in the library that the fbi wanted information on. > what is scary about a nsl, an that is required is for agent to say that they need one. your service provider will be served and they cannot tell you, so you do not get your day in court. >> laura, set up this clip that we have. >> this was taken on monday, a panel at the open society institute. deputy general counsel of the fbi present. jake had the opportunity to question her about national security letters. >> are you including national security letters in your, about believing there is judicial oversight with the fbi's

actions? >> national security letters and subpoenas have the ability of oversight, yes. >> how many of those have judicial oversight in percentage? every time you get a national security letter you have to go to a judge. >> know, as you know, just like administrative subpoenas, you do not need to go to a judge. the statute allows for whom those persons are served to seek judicial review. people have done so. >> in the case of the third say the 27 orders on my d mail and internet service provider account, third party were prohibited from telling me about it, so how am i supposed to go to a judge if the third party is gagged from telling me that i am targeted by you? >> there are times when we have to have those things in place. at some point, obviously, you became aware. at some point, the person

becomes aware. the statute allows us to do that. >> jacob, who she was again. >> my and standing issue was the deputy general counsel of the fbi. >> and the significance of what she said? >> essentially, we are just and righteous because judicial review. but there are some cases where you do not, but we're still just and righteous, and you should trust us. later someone asked about cohen tell pro -- the counterintelligence program. >> tried to get martin luther king to kill himself, for example. the fbi and urged him to commit suicide. for her to suggest that the fbi is just and right sort of overlooks the historical problems with doing exactly that for anyone in a position of power with no judicial oversight. >> what about the companies that

are approached by the government to participate or facilitate the surveillance? the degree of opposition they are mounting, if at all? has there been any qualitative change since the obama administration came in compared to the bush administration? >> first of all, i do not think any of them opposed it. they would approach it by saying, you would be patriotic if you support us. because they were told it was legal, too. then of course they had to be given retroactive immunity for the kinds -- crimes they were committing. presidentobama and bush. it started with president bush. >> the differences in the administrations? >> the surveillance has increased, in fact. that they have

assembled on the order of 20 trillion transactions about u.s. citizen with other u.s. citizens. >> and you are saying that this surveillance has increased? not only the targeting of whistle-blowers, like your colleague, who are actually indicted under the obama administration, the number of people who have been indicted is more than all presidents combined in the past. is to silenceit what is going on. data, they can target anyone they want. >> talk about utah. what is being built? >> a very large storage device, basically, for remote interrogation and processing.

there are not enough people to actually work the data. it is being worked somewhere else. >> where do you get the no. 20 trillion? ofjust by the numbers telecoms, it seems to me, the questions posed to them by cnet in 2006, looking at the responses, and i said, anyone that purchase updated from that, -- by the way, and that estimate was only involving phone calls and e-mails. it did not involve any queries on the net or any other transactions or credit-card stuff. the original allegation that you made in terms of the crimes being committed under the bush and ministration in terms of the rights of american citizens. >> i reported the crime when i was raided in 2007.

violatedadministration certain statutes at the time. i was reporting this for the fbi on my back porch during the raid. i went through stellar wind, told them the information that was used. were assembling data to pretty much spy on any americans. >> i want to go to a clip of georgia democrat hank johnson questioning the national security and administration director keith alexander, asking whether the nsa spies on u.s. citizens. nsa routinely intercept american e-mails? >> no. interceptednsa american cell phone conversations? google searches? >> no.

>> text messages? >> no. >> amazon orders? bank of order? >> no. >> would judicial consent is necessary to involve this for americans. >> within the u.s., the fbi lead. if it was a former actor, the fbi would still have to leave, and they can do so with other intelligence agencies as authorized. to conduct that kind of collection in the united states would have to go through a court order. the court would have to authorize it. that was general keith alexander, a democratic congressman being questioned by congressman johnson. use theof it is how you

term intercept, whether or not -- what they are saying is we are not looking at it, but we have, whether or not they are collecting and storing it. >> so the mistake was not asking are you collecting? >> he also said we do not collect against u.s. citizens without a war. in the same interview he said we to serveve the samability jail in the country. >> is he lying? >> i would not say that. it is kind of avoiding the issue. >> jacob out of town, what does this mean to you? telling bill, he is probably the most powerful person in the world -- >> more than president obama? >> if he controlled information

going to his desk, and makes decisions based on that information, what decisions can he make other than the decisions presented to him by the people he trusts? when the people he trusts is the military, the military makes the decisions. you are nodding your head. >> their responsibility is to interpret what they had and report on it. that is the responsibility of all intelligence agencies. they have basic rate fell to the information to what is important, which addition do because it takes time for leaders to review material to make decisions. they have to boil them down as best they can. it is a function of their processing but it is important that they do it correctly, to make sure the information they get there is correct and

complete. stronger than president obama? >> in terms of presenting an argument, sure. >> for those that have to go through what you have gone through just report what is going on with our government, the chilling effect than it has on you or other journalists? >> i feel like i cannot talk about what i do for work at home, sometimes in my country. the chilling effect is huge. >> you have been watching laura applebaum, and william benny. we will offer you the entire show or a contribution if you call and right now. it is a double dvd. moore,er is michael daniel ellsberg, and others.

the double dvd is yours for $200. with julie assange is $75. and his book, "cypherpunks: freedom and the of the internet ." but the show and the book together, $120. the book as well as the conversation that you just saw, and more, because we only give you an excerpt of it. the three dvd's and the book are yours for $200, if you call 866- 359-4334. we cannot do this without you and we are only doing this today. we have a limited supply of the book. the book and triple dvd is yours for $200. if you just what the julian assange interview from today, exclusive broadcast, yours for

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documents of what has happened in history over the years. suddenly, a german -- journalists had access. newspapers all over the world, hundreds of stories on what they were learning in these documents, but then they would drop julian assange like a hot potato. that is what is so frightening. of course, at another point they could rally around, and the question is, where is the brewery, where it courage? when journalists are under attack, the matter which agency there with, we are not there to win a popularity contest. we are there the whole those uncountable. those in power usually have the upper hand. it is truly brave act when you have people who are just deeply committed to democracy, saying, at least in this country, it is a reason that professional journalism is the only one

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