07/19/13 07/19/13 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] >> from pacifica, this is democracy now! is as if one day everybody affiliated with the democratic party and everybody registered as a democrat was hunted down and killed or put in concentration camps. that is essentially what happened in 1965 in indonesia. >> today we spend the hour with joshua oppenheimer, director of a brown great thing new film called "the act of killing trico

more than a million indonesians were killed beginning in 1965 by the u.s. backed military and paramilitary death. the story is told by the killers themselves. >> at first we beat them dig at that there was too much blood. there was so much blood here. so when we cleaned it up, it smelled awful. used thishe blood, i system. can i show you? >> the act of killing. all of that and more coming up. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the military judge presiding over the court-martial of u.s. army private bradley manning has upheld the most serious charge against him -- that he knowingly

aided the enemy by giving hundreds of thousands of classified documents to wikileaks. manning's defense team had asked colonel denise land to dismiss the charge, which could see manning sentenced to life in prison without parole plus an additional 154 years. but on thursday, she ruled there was enough evidence to show that in giving information to wikileaks, manning had knowingly provided it to enemy troops such as al qaeda. last week, harvard law professor testified that argument arguments are expected to continue today. the national security agency says it is implementing new security measures following the links by edward snowden revealed its massive spying operations. nsa chief general keith alexander said the agency has developed a two-man rule

requiring to systems administrators to work simultaneously in order to access key information. during remarks at the aspen security forum in colorado, general alexander also discuss the obama administrations to element of cyber weapons, saying roughly 4000 people in pentagon units were assigned to conduct cyber offense and defense. alexander also suggested for the first time that president obama had raised questions early in his tenure about the number of "mistakes" resulting in what alexander friend is the accidental collection of data about u.s. citizens. when asked about the impact of the leagues that about how the nsa conduct surveillance on communications both at home and abroad, alexander condemned them in harsh terms. >> i think it is significant and a reversible damage to our nation, and we have got to be clear on that. the purpose of these programs and the reason we use secrecy is not to hide it from the american people, not to hide it from you,

but to hide it from those who walk among you who are trying to kill you. >> former u.s. president jimmy carter meanwhile has gained attention for strongly criticizing the nsa's spying this week. in atlanta, according to the translation of a court -- wrote that appeared in a german magazine, carter said "america has no functioning democracy at this moment." detroit, michigan has become the largest city in the united states to file for bankruptcy. detroit's emergency manager says the city's debt could be as high as 20 billion dollars. the exact consequence of the towards bankruptcy will be determined in court, but they could include hermetic cuts to pensions for city workers. in egypt, supporters of ousted president mohammed morsi are taking to the streets again today for mass rallies more than two weeks after morsi was toppled by the military amidst a popular uprising. morsi's opponents are holding rival protests ahead of today's

actions, interim president of the monsoon were gave his first national address, pledging to protect egypt from those he says are seeking chaos and violence. all myaffirmed to you commitment and the government's commitment to restore security, stability in our country. we will not be scared or alarmed and we will not go easy on those who kill the innocent. we will fight the battle for security until the end. we will protect the revolution, we will build the nation, a move forward without hesitation. >> a russian opposition leader has been released from prison pending an appeal a day after he was sentenced to five years in prison for embezzlement. his supporters had flocked to the streets to condemn his conviction, saying was motivated by his criticism of russian president vladimir putin. he helped launch mass protests

around the real election of vladimir putin last year. u.s. military says a number of prisoners on hunger strike bank has dropped to 75 for more than 100 last week. a lawyer for the prisoner says he believes the drop is due to threats the prisoners would be deprived of prayer rights during the holy month of ramadan if they don't eat read a federal judge denied a motion by prisoners seeking to and the force-feeding of hunger strikers. warty six hunger strikers are still listed for force-feeding are formed with nasal tubes. italian officials say an ex ca- based chief convicted in absentia of extraordinary rendition of egyptian cleric has been attained in panama all. the cia station in milan. he was convicted in italy and sentenced to nine years in prison for the kidnapping of an in mom known as abu omar, who was snatched from the streets of milan in 2003 and taken to u.s. bases in italy and germany before being sent to egypt where he says he was tortured. omar

was eventually freed without being charged with a crime. a panamanian police official told reuters robert seldon lady has been handed over to interpol. at the top u.s. military officer says the obama administration is considering use of military force in syria. general martin dempsey, chair of the joint chiefs of staff, told the senate armed services committee thursday he has provided president obama with military options. dempsey responded to heated questions on syria from arizona senator john mccain. >> i am asking for your opinion strikes.se of >> that is under deliberation inside of our agencies of government and would be inappropriate for me to try to influence the decision with me rendering an opinion in public about what kind of force we should use. >> vinegar mccain has vowed to block the reconfirmation of dempsey over what he says are

inadequate responses on syria. the u.s. announced plans -- plans to arm the rebels last month, but the effort has stalled amid questions by congress. reuters reports britain has dropped its plans to arm the rebels due to public opposition and fear the weapons of provides could end up in the wrong hands. john kerry is wrapping up a visit to the middle east today after failing to advance plans for peace talks between palestinians and israelis. palestinian negotiators a call for israel to agree to guarantees regarding its future orders in order to assure peace talks would be productive. this week the israeli government approved the building of more than 700 homes outside of its internationally recognized 1967 borders. a judge in georgia has indefinitely extended a stay of execution for the mentally disabled prisoner warren hill over a new state law that makes the suppliers of lethal injection drugs a state secret. in an order issued thursday, the

judge said the secrecy law likely violates the constitution, but allowed prosecutors to immediately appeal to the state supreme court. if her injunction is overturned, worn hill could still be executed tonight. hill was sentenced to death for killing a fellow prisoner while serving a life sentence for another murder. his lawyers say his execution would violate a supreme court ban on the execution of prisoners with mental disabilities. trayvon martin's parents have spoken out for the first time since george zimmerman was acquitted in the fatal shooting of their son. in a series of network television interviews thursday, sabrina fulton and tracy martin responded to the verdict. this is tracy martin on "today." >> still shocked, still in disbelief. that wein our hearts were going to get a conviction. we thought the killer of our unarmed child was going to be

convicted of the crime he committed. >> trayvon martin's mother also the widerabout implications of the acquittal and the message it sends to use. >> it is sending a terrible message to other little black and brown boys that you cannot walk fast, you can't walk slow, so what do they do? how do you get home without people knowing or assuming that you are doing something wrong? trayvon wasn't doing anything wrong. >> justice for trayvon actions are said to take place in more than 100 cities this weekend. willturday, sybrina fulton join the vigil outside the new york police department headquarters, while tracy martin plans to attend a similar vigil in miami, florida. the senate has officially confirmed thomas perez as labor secretary and gina mccarthy as head of the environmental

protection agency. the vote came after the republicans agreed to drop their blockade of a number of president obama's nominees in a deal to preserve their ability to filibuster. axis governor rick. signed into law a bill that could shut down nearly all of the states abortion clinics. the bill inspired a people's filibuster and a stand from texas state senator wendy davis that shut down an initial attempt to pass a late last month. but kerry announced victory in a signing ceremony on thursday as protesters chanted "shame" outside the room. >> it is our responsibility and duty to give voice to the unborn, the individuals whose survival is at stake. this bill lives up to that responsibility. the law holds abortion clinics to the same standards as hospital style surgery centers and requires hard to obtain admitting privileges for abortion doctors at nearby hospitals. at 20o bans abortion weeks post fertilization and imposes restrictions on access to the pill form of abortion.

opponents are expected to file a lawsuit against the restrictions before they come into effect. in virginia, the state's largest abortion provider has closed under pressure from anti-choice restrictions. nova women's healthcare in fairfax try to change locations after new state regulations required clinics to meet hospital style building standards. but it's permit applications upgrade a new space was denied by officials citing inadequate parking. when the fairfax city council learned of the plans of the clinic to move, they approved changes forcing clinics to go through extra layers of approval and expensive permitting. the clinic had also agreed to leave its former location following lawsuits from its landlord landlord over complaints including the "unreasonable annoyance" kospi antichoice protesters. . a local spokesperson told the washington post --

virginias harsh new regulations forced another clinic in norfolk to close in april. the firstarks anniversary of the mass shooting and aurora, colorado when a gunman opened fire on a movie theater audience killing 12 people and wending scores of others. the group mayors against illegal guns is gathering today to remember the victims in auroras aurora's cherry creek state park. those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the hour with the director of a groundbreaking new film called "the act of killing." the film is set in indonesia, where in 1965, the military and paramilitary slaughtered up to a

million indonesians after overthrowing the government. that military was back to the united states and led by general who would rule indonesia for decades. there's been no truth and reconciliation commission. as the film says, indonesia is a country where the killers are to this day celebrated as heroes. a key figure in the film is anwar congo, who killed hundreds, if not thousands, of people with his own hand and is now revered as a founding father been active right-wing paramilitary organization. well, director joshua oppenheimer spent more than eight years interviewing the indonesian death squad leaders. in his film, he works for them to reenact the real-life killings in the style of american movies the men love to watch -- this includes classic hollywood gangster movies and lavish musical numbers. the film is remarkable. the issue of the indonesian military's brutality is no stranger to our democracy now! audience.

in 1990, 1991, traveled to east .imor with reporter allan nairn we witnessed a massacre by the us-backed indonesian military. that was the indonesian military occupying a foreign land. this film deals with the indonesian military's murder of its own people. this week i sat down with joshua oppenheimer to talk about "the act of killing" which he directed with christine sent and another director who remained anonymous out of fear. it's executive producers are werner herzog and errol morris. the film opens today in new york city at the landmark sunshine cinema and comes to los angeles and washington, d.c. july 26 and a theaters nationwide. this is a clip from the film's trailer. >> cut, cut cut.

you acted so well, but you can stop crying now. ♪ born free ♪ >> war crimes are defined by the winners. i am a winner. >> honestly, i never expected it to look as brutal.

>> that is the trailer for "the act of killing" a new film that has been a years in the making. erector, joshua oppenheimer, joins us in the studio, longtime film maker who with death squads and their victims to examine political violence in the public imagination. the codirector remained anonymous. it's executive reducers are werner herzog and errol morris. joshua oppenheimer, welcome to democracy now! >> thank you so much. >> this is an extending film, a ansterpiece -- and is astounding film. give us the context?

explain what happened in 19 65. >> in 1965, the left-leaning government, basically a socialist nonaligned government, the founder of independent indonesia emma was overthrown in a military coup that led to the dictatorship. ongoing corruption continues today. when sukarno was overthrown, the military swiftly went after everybody who was opposed to the new regime and accused them of being communist. of course some were communist. indonesia had the largest communist party that was to achieving political power through the democratic process. they were in a way a non- revolutionary communist party. so they were accused, but also the women in indonesia, their movement, the entire trade union movement, intellectuals and the

teachers, and the ethnic chinese , and land reform advocates. within a year, somewhere between half a million and 2.5 million people were killed in what was really one of the very largest genocides in our history. it was reported in the united states as good news. it was reported in "the new york times" and "time" fairly accurately in terms of the death tolls, but with headlines like "the gleam of light in asia." inevitably, these events had been forgotten in the west because, how do you remember the killing of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of people as good news? it doesn't make sense as a story. cane forget it area did >> you talk about the u.s. role at the time, something that is very much, people even know about what happened here, story that is not well known?

>> the u.s. and the west in general, particularly the uk and probably australia, were very much involved with supporting and encouraging the genocide. the u.s. provided money, weapons, radios so the army could coordinate the killings across the vast area of indonesia. they also provided death lists, thousands of names a fairly ,rominent public figures leaders of unions, intellects. it was a clear signal, we want these people dead. >> and they're handing over names of people and they were crossing off the names as they were killed. >> one was a guy named bob martin. when we met him, he was living in bethesda, maryland. another was a ca deputy station

suburbaning in virginia. they were handing out or handing over these lists of names, basically -- i remember bob martin was on the record in 1990 for interviewed by journalist and said, i may have blood on my hands, but sometimes that is a good hang. that the stiff names were people be dutch beyond that list of names, the whole message from the united states was, we want you not just to go after a few political leaders who are opposed to the new regime and leaders of the communist party, for example, we want you to go after the entire grassroots base of the indonesian left. it is as if one day everybody affiliated with the democratic party and everybody registered as a democrat was hunted down and killed or put in concentration camps. that is essentially what happened in indonesia in 1965 with western support. >> let's talk about your film.

you're giving the political backdrop created -- akhtar. talk about how you discover the people in your film. begin with the name. they very much tells us the story, "the act of killing" and the various meanings. >> it is the title of the film and has several meetings. of course they can refer to the commission of the crimes, commission of the deed of killing, which is worth pointing out is fundamentally a human act. we have really no other species except for a couple of the higher primates that kill each other. human beings kill each other and we do it again and again and again through history area did so there is a sense the film looks at what does it mean for human beings to kill? what are the consequences of killing? why do we kill wi and how do we justify killing through the

stories we tell? and the capital of north sumatra, the largest city where the third-largest city in indonesia, about the size of perhaps chicago, the army recruited in 1965 its civilian death squad members from the ranks of movie theater gangsters . these men were gangsters, they were part of a mafia that was running all sorts of criminal protection rackets, smuggling, prostitution rings, and so forth, but they were using it as a base of operations, movie theaters. they were selling movie theater tickets on the black market as a small side source of income, and they loved the movies. because they were hanging out in them, they developed a culture around the movies, ahold used gang culture around the movies, and at the time, the head of the american motion pictures association of indonesia named

bill palmer was believed by ordinary indonesians to have been involved in plotting a coup to overthrow the president of indonesia. sukarno. outside oflla jakarta in which they found a memorandum which may or may not have been a forgery, signed by the british ambassador gilchrist -- again, could've been a forgery -- but it was discovered it was a coup attempt against president sukarno. everybody had reason to believe that the time the guy bringing american movies to indonesia was in fact a cia officer and planning to overthrow their founding father, if you like. so there was a boycott, a wide- ranging, broad-based boycott of in 1964, 1965.

the movie theater gangsters hated this of the army recruited them because they knew they had a proven capacity for violence because they were gangsters, criminals. and they knew they hated the indonesian left already and could be easily mobilized to do their dirty work in attacking the left once the killing tarted. the movie theater gangsters were recruited to form these death squads. as it happened, they loved -- because of their love of movies and because the army had placed it offices where they were killing people directly across the street from the cinemas so it was convenient for them to leave the cinema, walk across the street and torture and kill people i'm a they would torture and kill people in ways inspired by american movies. the main character in the film, anwar congo, describes coming out of the movies, a midnight show, and elvis presley is ago for example, dancing his way across the street and killing

happily. so acting was always part of the act of killing for the men in the film. it was a way of distancing themselves from the horrific needs they were doing. them tomy film, i allow reenact what they have done, to dramatize what they have done in whatever ways they wish. perhaps in a moment going into how i came to that method. the act of killing has this double and even triple meaning, how acting was always part of the killing. in the film they act out their memories of killing. the act of killing needn't be were needn't refer simply to the act of killing human beings, it, as it does in this film demonstrates, it also refers to the act of killing ideas, hope, , and sort solidarity of our common humanity. >> filmmaker joshua oppenheimer,

interviewing does squad leaders. in his new film, he works with them to reenact the real-life killings in the style of american movies the men love to watch. that includes classic hollywood gangster movies and lavish musical numbers. "the act of killing" opens today in new york and then moves on to los angeles and washington and the rest of the country. we will continue our interview in a moment. ♪ [music break]

>> from pacifica, this is democracy now! . this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. interviewe with my with the director of "the act of killing" were beginning in 1965, u.s.-backed military and paramilitary slaughtered up to one million indonesians after overthrowing the government. a key figure in the film, anwar congo, now revered as a founding father of an active right-wing paramilitary. director joshua oppenheimer spent more than 8 years interviewing the death squad leaders. he works with them to reenact the real-life killings in the style of american movies. let's go back to the interview with joshua oppenheimer, but first, a scene from "the act of

killing."

>> anwar congo, describing "the act of killing." are theppenheimer, you director. take it from there.

>> this was in fact the very first day that i met anwar were filmed him. it was typical in a way. as i was saying earlier, i began this process in the countryside outside the city, working with survivors. they would send me to meet perpetrators. the perpetrators would boast. when we would go back and film with the survivors, the military would stop us. the army and police would come and stop us, detain us, take our equipment. a would take our tapes. it was very difficult to get anything done and it was terrifying for the survivors themselves. we regrouped and went to jakarta as a group with the survivors of whom we were filming read we asked, is this too soon after the fall of the dictatorship for us to make this film? is it till to sensitive -- is it still too sensitive? we asked if it was too dangerous. everyone said, you must continue

. they said, we need a film that exposes for indonesians themselves, above all for indonesians themselves, the nature of the regime in which they're living, things they already know but have been too afraid to say. essentially, we need a film to an point to things that are true but are too difficult to articulate, so we can articulate them now without fear. one of the key survivors in the film said, you know, why don't you film more perpetrators? you are finding out what happened. in their boasting, the audience can see exactly why we are so afraid. also you can see the nature of this regime, what is wrong with that, that these men could boast this way. so i went back and started to realize, it is as though i am in not the germany 40 years after the end of the holocaust and it is still the third reich, than

not these are still in power. the official history says nothing officially about the killings. officershe aging ss have been allowed to boast about what they have done, encouraged to do so, so they have become feared proxies of the state and also perhaps you can justify to themselves what they have done. i realized it that point, this was a reality so grave, so important that i would give it whatever it took of my life. i suppose, at that point i knew i would have to film every perpetrator i could find across the region, working my way up the chain of command to the city of medan and beyond army generals in jakarta to retired state department and cia officers leaving outside d.c.. i worked my way across the region and every perpetrator i

open.s boastful, within minutes of speaking to me, they would tell me these awful stories and typically they would invite me to the places where they killed. i always said, yes, take me, because i wanted to know what happened. we are talking about the deaths of tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, in one region. and these men as they would grow old and die, the facts of what had happened would be lost. i felt entrusted by the survivors and the human rights community to to film every single person i could find. anwar was the 41st killer i filmed. or 15, myaround 10 questions started to shift from, what happened back in 1965? two, what is going on now? why are these men owe sting? to whom are they? why do they want to be seen? >> anwar congo it is that has

killed 1000 people with pn a wire or in all the different methods he used. described going out to the countryside with him. there is one time where he reenacts the source of his nightmares. of course, it is not. he said he killed one person and failed to close the eyes. he cut off the head and it stares at him. hiss starting to talk about pain. it is one of these conflicting moments in that on the one hand he is opening up about his pain and trauma and his brokenness and at the same time he is still theg to himself about source of his nightmares. he has killed a thousand people. he says his nightmares come from this one killing. that was my moment. that is a crucial moment in the film in that it opens up the whole exploration of his conscience, which i was

resistant to throughout the film. i felt as though i've been entrusted by community of survivors to expose the whole regime and i was asking asking questions of the nature of the regime. i wasn't interested in leading a killer to remorse. but as it happens, discovering his brokenness has been the most effective exposé, if you like, of the rottenness of the whole regime. because if he was a genuine hero, if he was really the sort of founding father of this great new order, he would be enjoying his old age in peace. instead, he is tormented and the other killers you meet in the film are totally hollow. resonated sohas much with indonesians as they see the film. what islk about happening today. anwar is a founding father of

this paramilitary unit, as are all of the killers we meet in the film. it is a 3 million strong right- wing paramilitary gangster movement that has the support of the government. there is a part in the fillmore ecb vice president of indonesia -- where we see the vice president of indonesia addressing a rally of the youth raring the trademark orange camouflage. camouflage we think of something you wear so you blend in. bright orange camouflage you want to stand out. it exists to know that these people are feared. it exists to scare people. he addresses this rally and says, we need our gangsters, we need to be able to beat people up so that we can get things done. >> this is the vice president saying this, and gangsters he says means -- >> free man.

they use this sort of coincidence to justify the whole existence of gangster, a parallel system of gangsters. the other time in the film where we take an war to the countryside is to enact a massacre of the village free at -- village. they say their most heroic massacre of this village outside of medan were they basically went in and said it was a secret communist base. they went in and raped, looted and massacred. to understand how this right- wing paramilitary movement sees

itself, i gathered together about 100 young leaders in this movement, a minister in the government -- a deputy minister of youth and sport who was to look after political gangsters with youth being the euphemism for gangster -- he flies in from jakarta to direct and act in this massacre. they reenact destruction of a village. set, built a village. they cast their children and wives to play the victims. they set about destroying the village. during thatnwar scene. >> in that scene when they say, cut, cut -- they're also directing the scene. they are in it and directing it, like a movie. one of the little girls keeps crying. >> yes.

>> talk about the response to her by one of the killers. >> the girl who is crying is anwar's sidekick, his daughter. all of the children in the film have been auditioned for their ability to cry. they're not actually children of victims, but playing children of victims. she cries and he does his best to comfort her. he says, movie stars normally only cry for a second, so players altogether because you are embarrassing your father. child -- i think the the children's crying is not his -- it is always disturbing to see children cry, but that is probably not the most disturbing thing. there's another woman there who is the wife of a high-ranking paramilitary leader who in another moment in the film her husband is saying, god hates the communists, on television.

she looks like she is fainted. the indonesian people will say she is possessed. they're trying to purge the ghost, trying to exorcise the ghost the possessor. whether we believe in ghosts or possession or not, what is clear is she is old enough to have an experience of this even though she is married to a high-ranking perpetrator, some real memory or real trauma comes up through the process. really to speaks something at the core of the film, which is that no matter how much as a filmmaker, as an artist, i try to stay in control of what was happening and control the experience that was unfolding in the shooting and also in the edited film, i think we were -- all of us were overwhelmed. it was like a tsunami overtaking us. in hindsight, i think you cannot walk into a place where one

million people have been killed, were the perpetrators are still in power and are boasting about it and keeping everybody afraid, then it turns out are doing that as much to protect their own conscience so they can live with themselves, as to keep everybody thatdown -- you can't do and and address that situation honestly and not feel overwhelmed. >> joshua oppenheimer talking about his new film, "the act of killing." we will continue our interview in a moment. ♪ [music break] ♪ [music break] >> this is democracy now!,

democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we continue with joshua oppenheimer, director of "the act of killing." his friends are able to reenact what they have done in anyways they have wished. as i was filming, they would take me to places where they killed and offered his show me or want to show me how they killed. gradually i started asking, look, you have participated in one of the biggest killings in human history. your whole society is based on it. your lives are shaped by it. you want to show me what you have done and i want to understand what it has meant to society. i will film the process in your reenactment in whatever way you wish. we will combine this material to show what these events mean to you and your society. --some point, starting with i think i suspected i would combine all of these different

perpetrators from across the region, but i lingered on this one man caret you're on the congo because his pain was close to the surface, his memories were close read it was haunting. was a movie theater gangster so he started to propose his love of american movies and started to propose these more and more complicated reenact dance at were inspired by the ,enre of his favorite movies hollywood movies from the 1950s and 1960s. he would watch his reenactment and always look pained. but he wouldn't express what was wrong. he would never say, this is awful because it makes me look bad. the pain that would be all over his face when he would watch his reenactments, he would not dare articulate because to do so would be to admit what he did was wrong, and he is never been forced to do so, never been forced to admit what he did was wrong. normally and documentaries about

perpetrators, perpetrators deny would have done or apologize or act apologetic at least. because by the time you speak to them, they have been approached as perpetrators and removed from power, framed as people who have done something wrong so they deny or apologize. these men are still in power, so anwar watching his reenactments would've disturbed. instead of saying why, he would take an emotion and place it in something trivial like, my clothes are wrong, my acting isn't good, i need to dye my hair. he started to embellish and create these more and more surreal and strange reenactments, which i filmed because i understood they were allegories for whole systems of impunity. what happened electively as individuals when we kill, when we have an original crime and get away with it and justify it and therefore, we cling to that justification and persecute the survivors lest they should challenge our version of the events. embellisho starts to

and the motor, if you like, is his conscience. he brings in another death squad member, another member of his death squad. the reenactments get more and more emotional, more and more intense. in the next clip you will see, it is a moment where they just reenacted the torture and killing that happened in their office downstairs from where anwar does thecha cha cha earlier. they reenact the torture and killing in this office and afterwards, they respond to it. other members of the death squads, and he recognizes, wait these reenactments have the power to turn the entire official history on its head. >> tell us who is speaking first. >> the character is named adi. he is another surviving member of anwar's death squad.

>> and he is flown in to do this film that you are filming. >> he flew in midway through the process. i was trying to meet him from the beginning after meeting anwar, but anwar kept him away from me. is a common name. it was impossible to find him without anwar's help. he only introduced us after indeed he was sure he was the star. in the middle of the film, adi flies in and reunited with his friend and former killing colleague, and they are on the set having just enacted the torture and killing they did together in their use. -- in their youth.

>> that's a killer in indonesia who knows how many people he killed. joshua oppenheimer is the director of this film, "the act of killing."

he comes to realize, this does not look very good for them. >> i think there are a number of interesting things about this. says or warnsi everybody this is going to make us look bad. in fact, he only warns everybody this strongly once in the film, but in the process, he did it many times. no one heats his warning. for the younger generation of paramilitary gangster leadership, as gangsters, fear is there capital, so they're not participating in this film to look good, they are doing so to look fearsome. they are only able to go into a market and shake down the -- who market owners were labeled communists just by

being ethnic chinese at that time -- these men are not trying to look good, the other younger members of the paramilitary, so they want to continue. his warning falls on deaf ears. , it isar congo particularly interesting was he doesn't listen to his old best friend's advice. i think it has to do with what anwar congo is trying to do this film. somehow he is trying to deal with hisown pain, deal nightmares. he finds a form in the film to express pain that the regime has no time for. the regime wanted to say, it is great. once you can live with himself, killers can live with themselves. suddenly, he has a chance to deal with the ghost that haunts him. in the first clip, he dances on the roof. we cut or he starts dancing the cha cha cha.

but if you watch them dance, most viewers will feel appalled. how can a man dance where he is killed 1000 people? just before he dances, he says he is tricking, taking drugs, going out dancing to forget what he has done. somehow his pain, his conscience was there from the beginning. i think it is his effort to run away from the meaning of what he has done that leads them to propose evermore confiscated dramatizations. listen too doesn't the warning because somehow he is trying to deal with his pain. he is not trying to look like a hero, not trying to simply revisit or restate the official history. he is actually trying to run away from an experience -- and these are two paradoxical human needs. run away from an experience his pain. ends in afilm, it

devastating way. can you talk a little bit about what happens? >> yeah, at the end of the film, able to sayr is not the same kinds of things he is saying throughout the whole film . he takes us back to that office where we were at the beginning from the first time i met him where he shows how he killed and then danced, he takes us back there. it is the first time we have gone back and indeed the first time i went back over the course of five years of shooting 1200 hours of material. we go back to that office and my intention was just to ask them to say what happened in that office. he is speaking very much the same words he has at the beginning of the film. but his body, it is as if his body is physically rebelling is thanthe line he

speaking. he can no longer utter these and bear it. -- he starts to retch. is trying togh he vomit up the ghosts that haunt him, only to find he is the ghost in the sense he is -- his past haunts him and he is his past and you'll never be be free of it, so nothing comes up. he has lost all of his swagger. it is an enduring metaphor for how the film has come to theyesia in the sense that are still in school, still -- they that communists are still teaching in school that victims of the genocide deserved what they got, that it -- there teaching the genocide was justified and talking about it as a her own

chapter in the nation's history without going into the details of the killing. but indonesians themselves are starting to recognize this is like anwar congo's words, a hollow line, because the act of killing is making such a difference there. >> you have shown this film in indonesia? >> yes. they still censor books and films, and we knew if we just admitted it to the sensors before there was indonesian support for the film, it would be banned. if it were banned, we knew that would be an excuse for the paramilitary groups in indonesia or for the army to physically screening impunity. to get around that, we help screen at the national human rights commission in jakarta for indonesia's news publishers, news journalists, film makers, human rights advocates, survivors groups, historians, educators, artists, writers --

everybody really embraced the film saying they loved it. saying, we have to show this and get the film out. the news editors and publishers to perhaps the most interesting thing. any imagine you are the editor of indonesia's biggest newsmagazine and very much part of the establishment, in late middle age and you see this movie were the founding fathers of that establishment of your regime are totally broken by the end of the film? is tormented and ravaged. the side characters are hollow and shells of human beings. and you're faced with a pretty stark choice. they're not -- these men are not enjoying their old age as the heroes they have been telling themselves and the rest of the country they are. they are destroyed. you're faced with the stark toys if you're the editor read do you want to grow old as a perpetrator or take a stance question mark the editors took a

pretty brave stance and said, we our to brave our -- break silence. we need to marshal fresh evidence. a sent 40 journalists around the country to regions where they did not know the killings that even happened. see ifsically wanted to the act of killing was a repeatable experiment. outthere other anwars there? to their horror, but not surprise, they found it everywhere they sent people to maday came back with -- they could immediately find a local perpetrator and a perpetrator were criminals put in position by the army and encouraged to post about what they had done ever since so they would be these feared proxies of the government. these men within two weeks last -- the 40gathered journalists gathered hundreds and hundreds of pages of perpetrators boasting, edit it

to 75 pages and combined it with 25 pages of coverage of the film and came out with a special double edition of "tempo" magazine and it sold out immediately rid it reprinted and sold out. they did so again. this set the tone for the rest of the media to break their 47 your silence about what happened, to talk about the genocide. at the same time, the country is no illusion about anwar being the kind of mascot of the genocide. he has been contextualized perhaps as one of 10,000 . >>etrators of his level joshua oppenheimer, director of "the act of killing, post quote which opens in new york today. then it goes to los angeles and washington, d.c. and into theaters nationwide. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning.

e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]

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