welcome to another session of beliefs and believers. i'm dr. john simmons and we are moving on through the semester here, thoroughly ensconced in the doctrinal dimension. but since doctrine sometimes can be a tough road to hoe, why don't we start out with something fun here- a joke. anybody have a joke? a joke? yeah, go ahead. >> it's a george carlin- the comedian- it's his joke. someone in the audience asked him did he believe in the ten commandments. he said, 'yes, i do believe in the commandments- six commandments

and four suggestions." >> that's a good one with doctrine, because when we're talking about doctrine, as you know, and ethics, we're at the very heart of the course, which is belief and behavior. and we've mentioned several functions of doctrine, and today i want to take another spin on that and look at the tension in the doctrinal dimension between the sacred and the secular. so often the deeply religious have a problem with the secular world, and for others, like us, it's difficult to see where that demarcation is, that line between what is the mundane, what's the ordinary, and what is special and what is sacred. and we've talked about iliade and looking at symbols and we've looked where people have gotten holy symbols. but for some groups, building a doctrinal- i don't know if wall is the right word, but the brain isn't quite working yet, so we'll use wall- but they build a doctrinal wall between the secular and the sacred world.

and we could pick many, many different groups in order to look at that, but two that people seem to have a lot of interest in and i want to look at today in this class- first off, the amish, the old amish. people know of them if nothing else- the hit movie witness seemed to have brought them out on the map. so we'll look at the amish, but also the mormons, and look at two very different ways that groups have gone about this task of keeping the secular and the sacred apart. now the amish, of course- we'll do them first- but with the amish, they literally built a cultural wall. they've taken 18th century customs, they've built this wall of nonconformity to the world, and they struggle- believe me, they really do struggle to keep that world out. so we want to look at some of their background and also how this struggle becomes even more difficult today. so we'll start with the amish. now, i picked the mormons as the second one because they've taken another turn on this. rather than blocking out the secular world-

and this is not unique to mormons- they've sacralized the secular world- they've taken the whole drama of their religion, historically and on up to the present, and they've made the daily workings of life a sacred drama- a sacred mythic drama, to go back to that. and so we want to look at some of the doctrines in mormonism that allow them to do that. so an interesting class- another way of looking at the power of doctrine as belief, and it's affect on behavior, or the ethical dimension, on the believers. so if we could, to get us thinking about the amish, we want to look at them first, and i'm going to be doing some graphics, give us a little historical background, because so many people know a little bit about them, but i want to place them in a long tradition of protests. but to get us more visually involved here, i'd like to go to a roll-in on the amish. now this shows your typical dumb religious studies professor out in the field, but we go out with this crew and all our cameras and everything, knowing full well

that for those reasons doctrinally based in nonconformity, that the amish do not want their pictures taken. so we tried and we tried and we met them and we cajoled, and we got buggy rides and we ate sausage and we just had a great old time. but no videotape! so we did the best we could, a little bit of a monologue standing out there, took some pictures of the buggies and the amish life- here we're in the area of illinois- just to get some of the feel for it. so if we could, let's go to the roll-in on the amish. >> this is definitely not your father's oldsmobile. the sticker price on this baby will set you back more than a few bucks, back, well, a few hundred years and about 7,000 miles way to reformation europe, where we find the roots of the old amish. today we're in arthur, illinois, talking to the old amish, trying to understand their lifestyle. now in class, the most important subject that we've been dealing with lately has been doctrine- the power of doctrine, the function of doctrine. why would anyone want

to drive a horse and buggy when they can drive this shiny new american car? well, certainly, the horse and buggy gets better gas mileage- i understand it runs on one bale of unleaded hay. but there's a much more important reason why this is. that has to do with the fact that doctrines mean such a great importance to the amish. of the many contributions that come from the protestant reformation, a unique one that comes from the family that the old amish belong to is the vital need to separate from secular society. on one hand, you have the power, the temptation of technology here in arthur, illinois- the amish say, "no way. we're holding back. we're staying with the old style, the lifestyle of previous time." for them, that is the most authentic doctrine that they can come up with- a doctrine that represents the apostolic church- an actualization of simplicity, of devotion, of spirituality- which for them is the most important grounding foundation

in their life. so for some folks, perfectly fine to have a car; for the amish, it's the simplicity of the buggy, the simplicity of the horse, the simplicity of the agrarian life and these wonderful buildings around us- that's the power of doctrine. there is perhaps no more an intriguing chapter in the american saga of beliefs and believers than the story of the old amish. popularized by the hit movie witness, the plain folk for centuries have clearly been protestants. in fact, their roots go back to one of the greatest doctrinal battles in modern history- a radical reformation in the 16th century. but unlike reformers such as martin luther or john calvin, the amish interpreted the bible as demanding absolute avoidance of modern secular society- a corrupting society to boot. and in their attempts to actualize apostolic beliefs, these believers froze a culture-

non-religious customs of 17th century europe are now identifying characteristics of the amish. the horse and horsepower certainly replaces the tractor. hooks and eyes replace buttons. bonnets and aprons are evident. broad-brimmed hats, ears and long hair. once again, the fascinating relationship between belief and behavior. the amish are still protesting today. their very presence represents an intrusion of sacred space in the compromising world of modernity, for the amish reject any of the luxuries and/or technological developments that are part of everyday life in a modern community. farming, of course, does rely on horsepower, but the horse and buggy are more important- they replace the automobile. and yet, the outside visitor to amish country can't help but notice a thousand strange little compromises the amish seem to make with the modern world.

for example, on a trip down a country road through amish country, the amish want to avoid pesky visitors with cameras, and yet signs dot these roads, advertising canned vegetables, honey, cabinet making. they'll be happy to talk to you about their various doctrines and their lifestyle, but you dare not take a picture- no cameras are allowed. they're happy to ride in a car, but they dare not drive. they would never use a combine to harvest their crops, and yet they would have their crops harvested by a neighbor who is non-amish. and cabinet making- some very successful and beautiful furniture are made, and yet they won't use electricity from the normal electric power company; they would buy gas and run a gasoline generator in order to run the machinery. these compromises are very interesting. if a foundation breaks down on a barn, well, you call the local cement truck to save it. but if the amish from time to time seem to strike a bargain

with modern times, and if their customs- and sometimes these customs seem quaint or silly- are a bargain, it's a bargain that has allowed them to protect amish culture. they might turn around and ask the english- a term they use for anyone outside their group- "what do your secular beliefs bring you? we have beautiful farms, a simple life. you run off to cities, take jobs you hate, lock your parents in homes when they get old, don't have the sense of family we have, don't have the sense of beauty in a quiet, agricultural life." in fact, these believers are doing just fine, thank you. not only have they kept the modern world with all its problems at bay, nationally, they have grown from a meager band of 5,000 in 1900 to over 100,000 today. and their farms survive while many modern farms are failing. in fact, they survive very well, and simplicity and beauty and a sense of family and community.

so the dilemma of the amish faith is a dilemma we find throughout our exploration of world views- the ideal of standing apart from secular society must be balanced by the very real need to be a part of the world. so though the door closes, it must again open on the modern world around it. >> you know, since we've done that video interview, you see it's not so much that they're freezing a culture, what's going on here is more along the line of it's a nonconformity but with three great institutions in mind- the family, of course, the church, by all means, but also the economic basis. so these compromises take a lot of work and a lot of effort, and if you've seen any movies on the amish, you see how that transpires. but can we go this far? can we use this new appliance? can we use this new theme? well, if it supports the church,

it supports the family, it supports the economic institutions, fine. at the same time, it's a constant working to keep that doctrinal wall- to use my terminology- in this case, in order to move through it. but before we go through the graphics, questions that you might have? yeah, jamie? >> is the prohibition against videography or photography in general just a reflection of a technological culture that they reject or is it something more specific about an image on paper? >> it's a very good question, because we tried- naturally, we tried to get some answer to that, and oh, they at first would do a little song and dance about one of the first commandments about not making a graven image. but you know what? what it really comes down to is they feel that something like that would compromise their situation here. but you know, there's- we'll get to the graphics here to give you some background on it- but this idea of separating from the world, of moving from the world because the world, essentially,

will draw you down from your spiritual roots. but where we go with that is back to the protestant reformation, as many of you might know. with the protestant reformation, we're talking here the 1500s through 1700- it's a time in which great turmoil was going on in the christian church, and we've looked at christian doctrines. and the tradition that we have here is known as the anabaptist tradition, and these were the protestors after luther- martin luther- who kept right on protesting; they just kept right on doing it. and they said, "no. that's not enough. we need to get more holy, more apostolic, more back to the true church." and from that, we see a great tradition known as the anabaptist tradition. swiss brethren actually began it, but they have a whole set of rules about separating from the world- church and state should not be one and the same; they should be different, they have different kinds of powers- and that's where they went, and you know, that's the basic idea on the amish. yeah, chris? >> weren't the anabaptists one

of the reasons they wanted to move to american and to other outlying continents? weren't they severely persecuted by both protestants and catholics? >> absolutely. there's an amazing story- you've heard of the mennonites- simon menno? he is one of the ones that tries to get some common ground, because when this explodes, this anabaptist fervor- for instance, the town of munster, a group of radical anabaptists took over the town, and they said, "jesus is coming back at any time now, and we need to be holy." so they took over the town, and they actually persecuted lutherans and catholics in it. well, shortly thereafter, an army made up of both protestants and catholics surrounded the town, and many people were- died. now out of that, someone, like mennonites, like simon, comes out of there and says, "we have to have a more neutral path." and so a certain set of doctrines were developed that the amish eventually

draw on. jacob amman, the founder of the amish, tries to find a ground that is not radical, that is not so disruptive, but keeps that wall there. and we look to that period of time, where we're talking about the avoidance- you've heard of the shunning, or avoidance, the ban- that becomes part of it. if somebody has fallen away into sin, not to punish them so much, but to restore them, to bring them back into the fold. so we see that today in the amish realm. holding on to the dress, the hooks and whatever you call those things- yeah, hooks and eyes; yeah, that's it. those kinds of things are all part of the amish attempt- you know, not to freeze a culture. i know i mentioned that in there, but even since then, i've done more research and seen it's not so much to freeze a culture in, you know, 17th century swiss elements, but more, "where are we going

to draw the line?" and in this case, the key idea is nonconformity with the world, and that's where we get the peace element- we're not going to go in the army; that's where we get the element of separating and not being hooked up to the electric company. you may have heard of the challenges- we don't go to education past the eighth grade; a famous- yoder v. wisconsin, i believe, is the famous case that sorted that out, and in most instances, the amish are left alone and allowed to do that. so that's where we are. you had a comment? >> do you know if they pay property taxes, and how does all that work? and do they work outside the farms? where do they get their money? i have like a list. >> you know, it's- now help me out here because someone else has asked that and i had said i would go look that up, but i'm not sure about property taxes. my gut feeling, if i'm allowed to have gut feelings, is they've got to pay property taxes- you know, they've got to do that. now we don't want to just think that they're involved in farming because they've moved on-

cabinet making, furniture making- depending on the group. and i need to say something here a little realistic about the doctrine, that some of these questions actually split the amish into various sects and groups. we talked about the old amish, but we can't think of them as entirely being in that characteristic, because some will split over just how do you divide up the farmland? how should the band be organized? yeah, janet? >> well, they can make some big money now because they do organic farming, and no growth hormones in their livestock. so they can make prime money if they sell their produce from their farms right now. >> and you go down to the amish communities, and here's where you see, "is the wall porous? are we getting some holes in it?" because at the same time, they don't want to be bothered; then you'll have them, you know, obviously catering to tourists in some areas. now not all- >> i have a remark to make on that. >> all right. i went down to napanee in indiana, which is a large community.

not a one of those people who are dressed in amish clothes is amish. they hire the people form the town because they will not participate, but the people then act for them, because they themselves keep withdrawn from the community. i really wanted to talk about the taxation, because if i'm not mistaken, their big protest is that they do not want their money to go for armaments. they want a traditional- peace tradition, and so this is a very difficult thing to say, "yes, i will do this, but none of it must go toward armament." now how do you divide that with the government? >> and it's very difficult along those lines. sure, we can get to you. >> i have a question not really related to that one, but if they are, you know, against the modern conveniences pretty much just so they can stay as is, how do they- do they accept our modern

medicine and hospitals and such, or do they shun that too? >> well, it's a constant- i think you take the incident and then figure out where you're going to be. if you're really ill, you really need to go to the hospital, then you will. there's a lot of healthful home medicine that goes along these lines. let me just give you one example. no, susanna, go ahead, and then i'll give you my example. >> i've had a couple of experiences too. my first job out in kent state speech path was i was one of three who was invited to initiate a program of speech and language therapy services in the schools of tuscarawas county, ohio, and we had to divide the county up. some folks were making wise remarks about the amish, and i said, "i would take that section," because it sounded interesting, and i thought i would like it. then i found out that school district hadn't had a catholic within 500 yards for many years, so they had to take a vote about whether it was okay. whether that's true or not, i don't know, but i can tell you that i had a wonderful welcome

and three extremely happy years there. but i learned about the amish, and i consider them a great people. there were two one - room amish schoolhouses on my beat, along with a couple of high schools that were not amish and a set of grade schools that were not amish. most of the amish children were in the regular school district in garaway. the towns were sugarcreek, dundee- two that i went to. both of the one - room amish schoolhouses had to have a college graduate for a teacher, and they did. but even with a college graduate for a teacher, there was a difference there. whenever i went out to the school eva brown, they were there. and here's a school that i thought, as a 21-year-old right out of college, "if i have children one day, i would like them to be here," because the way she ran her classroom was exquisite. i would come in my shiny new car, and she would just stop everything, and say, "ah,

miss richard is here today. children, let's stop and gather around and listen and see what she has for us today, what we need to do," you know, for her. and then i would do my testing and things, i had a corner of the schoolhouse, and so forth. i went to the other one and at least half the time nobody was there because hazel had let them out early. and the following year, all of the children had to go into the consolidated school district, and the ones from eva brown's school did, without incident, and they all stayed. the ones from the other woman's school went, but then there was a renegade group that went out and started their own school. but that's time for that. what i learned best was taught to me by philip aiker's father. philip had hearing problems, and i started my conference with his dad, talking down to him, i'm embarrassed to say. but i learned

within about two minutes of our starting the conversation that his vocabulary was very much equal to mine. i think i had them confused with christian scientists, or at least in my- i don't know much about that, but my picture was that they had nothing to do with modern medicine, so he would not have known anything. he knew a lot, and i learned an important lesson early in my career, which was, thou shalt not talk down to anyone who's sitting in front of you. and i didn't. but years later, i met a friend who had an amish - sounding name- i don't know if i'm at liberty to say it, so i guess i won't. but let's just say freeman. and after i knew him a while, i said, "were you ever an amishman?" and he said, "yes." he was episcopal when i met him. so we talked about my experiences and about his life, and i asked him, did- were you shunned when you first left

to continue your education or whatever? and he said yes. but he wasn't still shunned- for a good many years now, he's been okay- still visits his mom and so forth. he's a practicing clinical psychologist, so he did take a different path. >> you know, what you're saying, though, is so helpful. first off, your first comment about worldview analysis- that you don't talk down; you learn by talking to believers what's going on in these kinds of areas, and that's so true. the other thing that comes to mind- again, to bring it back into the theme of doctrines- is how difficult it is, really, for the people to maintain, you know, this kind of thing. i'll show you one example. first, what i was going to say before susanna's good comments, i want to tell you about our entrance into the amish community that even got us far enough to do that video taping that we did.

i had a student in my 101 class at western, a woman obviously very secularized. she was a law enforcement major- she was about to graduate and she was going to be an illinois state trooper. and i thought, well, that's okay, that's great. well, then she turns out- i happened to mention, "i sure would like to visit some amish," and she said, "well, my grandparents are old amish." she's going to be packing, you know, like a 44 on the hip and driving around in a car and her parents are old amish- okay. well, so we go over there and we see just how hard it is to maintain this lifestyle, because her parents were mennonites. now the mennonites are much less rigid about any of these things- they're more open to conforming to the world. in fact, many old amish go to mennonite. and now here's this, you know, young woman who's basically secularized- she's given up religion. well, they took us around in the evening,

and we went- it was a small town in downstate illinois and we're going by the football stadium- it's at night. and down, around, and behind the football stadium, parked next to the z-28s and all the shiny teenage cars, there's a buggy, you know, parked up and tied up in the dark. and you know, we say, "well, what's that doing here?' well, she says, "you know, the younger amish tell their parents they're going over to the preacher's house and do this, that, and another thing, and then they get in the buggy and they drive down, park it, get in the z-28 with their mennonite friends and cruise around." and the other one that was just in the paper the other day- and i don't want to make this seem facetious, but maybe some of you saw this. i knew that we were going to come and be talking about the amish here today, and of course, probably the most well known amish community is in lancaster, pennsylvania. i happened to grow up in chester county, which is the county, one county over, so i'm very familiar with this area. talk about the, you know, closing in of the secular- it was once beautiful farm

country, and now you go back and visit it and it's kind of a mini high tech silicon valley out on the corridor of route 30. anyway, this is just sort of a mind blower article that shows how difficult it is. a couple of young amish fellows who are part of the old amish hooked up with the pagans motorcycle gang, bought cocaine from them, and were distributing it in these young amish groups that are called- little youth groups known as the crickets, the antiques, and the pilgrims- these young amish kids, and they're buying cocaine from the pagan motorcycle groups and they're selling it to the younger people. and one of the elders of the group says, "people think"- and i'm quoting here- "people think the amish are sheltered from the outside world, but the temptations are there. my client's parents are extremely conservative- horse and buggy, the whole bit- they're having a hard time understanding this." and i bet they are. but that's the challenge-

you know, you try to erect these walls that go right back to these ancient anabaptist traditions- you know, the motivation to want to be as holy and as sacred as possible. but that insidious way, you know, that the secular world can move in. that's why many amish, of course, are moving out of the more populous areas there. a couple more comments on the amish before we move on to the mormons? go ahead, james. >> well, this was a mennonite group asked me to come in and videotape the inauguration of a pastor, and this was about three months ago. and before the inauguration itself began out in the yard of the church, they had a little rhythm group with drums and singing and having a little jam session. so i got to- i know nothing about the mennonites, but far from the strict observances i would expect in an amish-related religion. >> it's very mainstream. again, to testify to my d -

credentials as an anthropologist, when we originally- you know, before we had the camera crew but when i originally went down to amish country, i just had a camera and i was trying to chronicle, you know, different- the diversity of religious behavior here in illinois. so i pull into this little town, arthur, illinois, and i said, "well, where's the amish church?" you know, and they said, you know, "what train did you get f,uddy?" they don't have churches. the old amish will be out in the field in the summer or in a barn; about twice a month they come together for the various services. but the mennonites, of course, function very much like any traditional, you know, protestant christian group, so- and we see that there. >> are they related to the quakers? >> it's a similar tradition. i wouldn't say it's a close relationship, but it's a similar tradition of those groups that come out of the protestant reformation, and wish to take a more radical stance on issues. they certainly share with the quakers the peace issue. >> i think they don't have

a church either. >> yes, they do. >> or they have a church but they don't have modern- >> it's a meeting hall. >> but the thing i'd like to mention is that i admire the mennonites very much. even though it was illegal, they made no effort to conceal the fact that they were housing the political refugees from el salvador, who came in and were being really hunted. they contributed to- in fact, they housed them, they took them to school, knowing that any time they could be stopped and be arrested because they were doing something illegal. the compassion of these people- it was like an underground railroad bring them in, do your best for them, and pass them on to canada. fascinating people, because they don't hesitate about making personal sacrifices when they see injustice. and i'm not a mennonite. >> yeah, well, you see, that is part of the key here that we're talking about with doctrine- you stand up for a radical stand

like the amish might make, separating the secular from the sacred, and yet, in the day-to-day living that you do, you find ways of compassion, you find ways of crossing, and it's a key, you know, beliefs and believers theme that you can't- you know, as susanna was saying- you can't just think, "well, i know about a group. they're christian scientists, they're amish or they're mormon, so i know about them." but probably what you know is a whole bunch of pejorative cliches that have been bunched together. and where you see it, as you're saying, barbara, is right out there on the field. sure. >> i was going to say, my grandparents were quakers, and they just closed their church because there wasn't enough following anymore. but they mingled- all the church people- you know, many of my relatives are quakers- mingle with their whole neighborhood. you would never know they're really any different except the girls don't- when i still lived there, anyhow- no lipstick, no makeup, no card playing, no dancing. needless to say, when my father met my mother, who was lutheran, she introduced him to the evils

of card playing and dancing. >> yeah, and watch out for those! >> i was attending a party and it was one where we all knew the hostess but didn't know many of each other. so we were talking back and forth, and one woman said, "i'd give anything to meet a quaker." she said, "i've always wondered about the quakers," and i said, "well, here i am. i'm a quaker." she said, "but you don't dress like one." she was assuming the gray- the pilgrim outfit, you know. "but you don't dress like one." now this was three years ago, so i can see people's ideas certainly give a graphic of what they have learned. >> well, another thing, the quakers that i know, at least, they are called friends. they have renamed themselves friends. and the kids i went to school with after eighth grade would go away to haviland, kansas, and attend the quaker friends high school and college. >> you see what we're drawing in here, yeah, is yet another group

of this sort that works with this. and as i said, we could have several different groups. just in the interest of time, let me shift over to the mormons. now i don't want to- you know, we'll have a chance to come back to look at some of these other groups and make mention of them. but you see, we've got the ball rolling here in class, which is what i wanted to do by picking just- not really just any two groups out of the air- but two groups that make us think about just what a challenge it is to deeply religious people to make agreement compromises, a working relationship with the in-world experience. now the mormons, if we could take a peek at them for a minute. joseph smith, jr., the founder of the mormons, is one of the most extraordinary stories in american history- truly extraordinary. and what makes it so powerful from the point of view of, well, beliefs and believers, is mormonism- you say mormon, if you're not a mormon,

just what i talked about, that level of cliches come up and people start picking here, picking there, doing that. but what you find if you look at the mormons from belief and behavior point of view is an amazing tale of extraordinary zeal that also plugs into the cultural needs of the time. now i like to think about it in terms of if you're going to have an alternative religion- and by the way, just for some background, we're talking about mormonism, starting to give you a little bit of the story, we talk about the prophet, joseph smith. he is living in upstate new york in the 1820s. he's confused because they called it the burned over district- there's so many doctrines flying around and preachers preaching and pastors preaching, and so many ways christianity is being spun. and he prays and says, you know, "god, help me. which is the true one?" and lo and behold, a divine personage occurs to him- the angel moroni- and reveals these ancient plates

that were buried in upstate new york, and he's given powers to translate them. and on these plates comes the book of mormon. and what does the book of mormon do? it places the mormons in the center of god's drama, right on the american frontier, which has absolutely unlimited potential. so you take spiritual power, a divine plan, revealed mythically, supernaturally, to a people who are then called upon to build zion, to build god's kingdom on earth, right at a time- and we're talking here, you know, jacksonian democracy- heading out across the frontier, building the great nation because god wants us to. well, what are the mormons going to do? they're going to restore the true christian church on earth. so with that kind of mythic power- and you know, we talked about doctrine guiding myth- but with that kind of mythic power behind them, the story then becomes absolutely fascinating in terms

of what they were able to put up with. just a little bit more of the history, sometimes i- his plan of course was to bring the group of people together and then head out across the west, out of upstate new york, immediately- you know, we talked a myth here, and doctrine defining myths- but this is one of those stories, the mormons say it exactly happened this way. but whether or not it's true, it gave these people a power to move across to ohio, gather more people, then into independence, missouri, where joseph smith- the center place, the axis mundi, would be independence, missouri. but they developed so quickly. you know, it' another- the challenge of the secular world- how do they- how does this fit with non-mormons? well, the mormon mores ensued in missouri, and they had to move back across the river into illinois. now has anybody been to nauvoo? yeah, a few people have been to nauvoo. well, that is- certainly, for illinois- it's the site of the greatest drama here, and fortunately,

we do have a roll-in coming up here shortly on it. but against all odds, they were able to take this swampy, disease - infested part of illinois here- and we're talking, you know 1839, into 40s - and in a short period of time, built the largest city in illinois- larger than even chicago. but animosity comes in- that secular world. the mormons have sacralized the entire political drama, and they're running the show, according to their mythic reading, and how doctrine spins on it. but the other residents of hancock county didn't quite see it that way, so depending on whose story you listen to, joseph smith is arrested and taken down from, you know, from nauvoo into carthage, where he's actually assassinated. let me take you- we do have some graphics up here- let me take you through some real quick ones on my five p's of prophet, and then we'll come see a roll-in on this.

but first off, i've already mentioned it, joseph smith is the prophet; he is the leader of the mormons. the next one, if you have a prophet, you have to have a promise, and the promise in this case was from the angel moroni, and the angel says, "here's the book of mormon. head on down the pipe." next you've got to have a plan. after you have a plan, well, the plan is nothing less than to build zion, to build the kingdom of god on this planet. and we've already talked about that old testament covenant idea that god had brought peoples here to build god's kingdom in the latter days- the latter day saints. well, what joseph smith did is to sort of supercharge it with high octane fuel, to make it even more amazing. the possibility was the fact that we have unlimited territory, the people are energized to do it, and we've got the frontier, so there's a lot of space to move on, and move on they did-

as we said, establishing great communities like nauvoo. and finally, the place. well, the place today, just to run that down for you, the place, of course, is utah. after the death of joseph smith in carthage, most of the mormons, after continued harassment, followed brigham young out to utah- that becomes zion for them- and today, that's the latter day saints. there is 8 million latter day saints; it's a very, very large movement. so we have 8 million folks in the latter day saints movement. the second group is, with 250,000, are the reorganized mormon church, and they still hold to the independence, missouri, is the center, and they have followed the descendants of joseph smith. thereafter, there's several other different sects, but the idea here is that the place becomes utah, the place becomes independence, missouri, but there's more-

something like maybe 200 different sects that continue to split off because of different doctrinal disagreements. as you can well imagine, one of the most difficult- well, one of the most controversial doctrinal teachings that came out of a revelation joseph smith had in nauvoo was the question of polygamy- of plural marriage- and that has continued to trouble the church. and today, most of them are left alone, but there's many, many existing separate fundamentalist mormon polygamous sects that exist in the world around us. so what i'd like to do if we could is we have an interesting roll-in at nauvoo. and what they're doing is they're restoring the nauvoo settlement, and we had a chance to go down there, we talked to elder andrus, who answered some of these basic questions on mormonism. so if we could, let's go to the nauvoo roll-in.

>> this majestic portion of the mississippi looks pretty peaceful on a crisp autu morning, but about 150 years ago, it was the site of illinois' greatest religious drama- the exodus of the mormons from their otherwise successful town in nauvoo. the nauvoo saga is not just illinois' greatest religious drama- it could be a religious drama for all times. what zeal, what zeal the mormons demonstrated, in terms of their belief. belief and behavior- once again, one of the powerful dimensions, doctrine in all worldviews. look at the mormon story. from the time of joseph smith's revelation back in new york, all the way across to missouri, they encountered many, many, many types of harassment from otherwise good citizens of the united states. and moving back to nauvoo, they established one of the greatest centers in all of illinois. but the harassment didn't end. in 1844, joseph smith was

martyred at the carthage jail, and for two years thereafter, the mormons were harassed by citizens of hancock county. on the frozen night, february 4th, 1846, men, women, and children- mormons had had enough- and some walking on actual ice, some going on barges, moved across this river towards their eventual home in utah. without that connection between belief and behavior, the power of doctrine, mormons may not ever have survived, and we wouldn't have this major worldview today. i'm sitting at the latter day saints visitor center in nauvoo, illinois, sitting with elder garth andrus, and he's going to give us insight into the mormon religion and the powerful presence of nauvoo for mormons in this area. elder andrus, let me start out with a simple question. where does the term mormon come from?

>> well, the term mormon is a nickname, and it arrives because of the book of mormon that the latter day saints have as a part of scripture, which was received through joseph smith when he received the plates to translate into the book of mormon. >> maybe it would be helpful just to know a little bit more about joseph smith, and then we can talk something of the doctrines that are unique to mormonism. >> well, joseph smith was born in new york, and as a young boy of 14 years of age, he was studying, reading the bible, and he came across a scripture in james that said, "if any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask it of god." and at that point, he was verconfused, because he was being taught by this church that they were right and this one was right and this one was right, and his family, even his own immediately family, are members of different churches. and he wanted to know which was right and he came across that passage of scripture, and so he went, then, and prayed to the lord to answer his questions, which church should he join. and that was

when he received the vision, or the appearance of the heavenly messengers that told him that none of the churches were right at that time and that they would give him further information. >> what happened in nauvoo, and then what does this spot mean to a devout mormon? >> well, in the first place, the saints were run- actually expelled out of missouri because of their religious beliefs, and they came here to nauvoo. now at that time, nauvoo was a swampland- infested, mosquito swampland- and they came here looking for peace, really. and when they came into nauvoo, the place that they could- nobody wanted, in reality. so they came here and they proceeded, then, to drain the swamp and make it a place that they could live. now the word nauvoo is a very interesting- it was commerce at the time they came here, and then that was changed to nauvoo, which is a hebrew word meaning "beautiful place."

and joseph smith then changed the name from commerce to nauvoo, and they came here in 1839, from far west missouri. and then they were here from 1839 to 1846. when the persecution became heavy again- they were growing fast in number- nauvoo became this, well, almost as large as chicago. believe it or not, at one time, they had 11,000 - plus residents here in nauvoo and chicago was 12,000 - something, and they were growing much faster than the surrounding areas in hancock county even. and so they also had a special charter that was given to them by the governor of illinois that gave them special rights, and i guess they had privileges that other people were concerned about, and so there was a lot of persecution because of their beliefs and the fast, rapid growth, and i think there was some

intimidation in other areas. >> and what are the doctrines that make mormonism ique? i know it has to do with restoring the true apostolic church, but maybe you could outline a little bit more for us. >> well, the church is organized after the same existing organizations existed in christ's church when he was here upon the earth. and of course, it's the church of jesus christ of latter day saints, or the "church of jesus christ in these latter days" is the meaning of the name, and it's organized- like christ had 12 disciples, and so there's 12 apostles today; there's the first presidency and there's the 12 apostles, who are profit seers and revelators and receive direction from the lord in regard to the needs and responsibilities of the lord's work here upon the earth today. >> okay. in one segment of this course, we're talking about different kinds of doctrines, and i was reading through the current encyclopedia of american religion and simply counting

up the different varieties of mormonism, and i actually found 43 different groups that claim to be mormon in one sort or another. can you help me out a little bit on why there might be this variety? >> yes. there have been a number of spin-offs, you may say, or fragments. for example, first when the saints left nauvoo, at that time, there were those that did not follow the leadership of brigham young- they didn't go west with brigham young- and they stayed behind and they organized what they call the reorganized church of jesus christ of latter day saints. and that was the first spin-off, and there's been numerous ones since that have fallen off, just like in the catholic church or any other church, and organized their own. that's where you come with these different factions. >> okay. let me turn to another subject. it's, well, not the most pleasant side in religion. there always seems to be misconceptions people have of religions when they're outside of them, and one that keeps coming up,

somewhat embarrassingly, when you discuss mormonism is people say, "oh, those are the people who practice polygamy, or did practice polygamy." can you set us straight on some of these misconceptions? >> well, yeah. there was a period of time that yes, they did practice polygamy, and that was after- in fact, during the time that they were here, as they were starting to trek west, they were petitioned by the government to form a militia- or not a militia, but a battalion- and they sent the mormon battalion out, which was several hundred men. and consequently, they had many women- they had far more women- and there was nobody to look after them or to help them, protect them, and provide for them, and at that time, they did practice polygamy, and it was more to provide for single women, or families that have been left. in fact, some of those were families that had been left without a husband or a father, as the case may be.

and that took place until after they reached salt lake valley, and then later on, then it was against civil law, and when it was against civil law, they followed that civil law. and since then, there is no polygamy and hasn't been for many, many years. in fact, those who insist on practicing it are excommunicated from the church. so there are no members of the church that practice polygamy. >> okay. another point, it's well l known to people that study religion that mormonism may be the next great world religion- it's so successful and expanding at such a rate. is there any one or two things you can attribute the success of the mormon worldview to? >> well, yes. i would say yes. one, of course, i think is our great missionary program. they go into all parts of the world and explain religion, and i think, again, that it's somewhat of their beliefs, i think, that attract many people.

for example, we do believe in a supreme being. we also, which i think is also impressive to people, we believe that we can be families forever- that through certain ordinances that are performed in a temple provided for that responsibility and offered to us- we can be sealed on earth to families and be eternal families that will come forth in the next life as family members. >> that's a very powerful aspect of mormonism, the family - centeredness at a time when the family is in such a terrible state in america. let me just do one last thing, give you a chance to say anything else you might want folks to know about mormonism, any points we might have missed, anything that you mithink would be hul in understanding the worldvi. >> well, i would just, i guess, say this, that it's a very family-oriented religion, and that we firmly believe that it's a family responsibility to look after people. in other words,

the first responsibility of a person is not to go to government welfare, is not to be a leech on someone else, but family's are responsibility for their own. and i think that this is a great thing that they've done. you've probably heard of the church welfare program. well, it's not a dole system, like the government system is. it's that people who receive help- and many do- then are expected, when they can, in what they can, to repay back, so someone else can enjoy th same privilege. but i guess i'd say that the big thing is the family-oriented aspect of the church and the fact that we can be eternal families and enjoy those great blessings. i guess one of the things that also is different somewhat from the latter day saints church is the concept and the belief in the godhead- that we believe that there are three separate beings, god the father, and his son, jesus christ, and the holy ghost, whereas some believe that there is just, there is one, three in one,

and we believe that they are three distinct and separate beings. >> well, thank you very much, elder andrus, for sharing this with us and it certainly has helped our study of mormonism and our visit to nauvoo. thank you. >> well, thank you for the privilege. >> now, let me sort a few things out there, because as we were looking at that i saw a few eyebrows go up, particularly when we touched on the element, or he touched on it, the believer- not me- the believer touched on the question of polygamy. we see here a gentleman talking from the perspective of the latter day saints church, and this is the establishment mainstream mormon church with 8 million people and growing all the time. he kind of pushed off polygamy, as one would expect on tv and as a spokesperson for it, as, "well, that's not done anymore." and in fact, the latter day saints church did outlaw it under quite a bit of intense pressure back in 1890, when the u.s.

government was getting nearer to utah and pressuring them. so it's quite true and he says they're excommunicated. but interesting about sacred doctrine and how it plays out over time in a particular group. there are as many as 200 different tiny little fundamentalist mormon sects that do indeed practice polygamy. and why do they do it? it's because of the original revelation that joseph smith had, and they believe that this is a relation that furthers god's plan. they disagree with the conformity- to go back to our amish idea- with the civil law of the united states. and to show you this, just as i picked up the newspaper and look around for these things in the newspaper, you might have seen this also- another newspaper just two days ago, chicago tribune, i pick up and on the third page, "mormon women uniting to help sisters, wives escape polygamy." and it's a group here called

the tapestry of polygamy. rather- you know, one has to be careful here because the latter day saints, the gentleman is quite right, that church does not practice it. but obviously, it's an extremely difficult thing because these women have gotten together and they even have their own website, which i guess doesn't mean much anymore- i'm happy to share that with you. but you know, here's some of the comments that comes out, the difficulty between the secular and the sacred, which we're working here, when people probably, for the most part, legitimately, really believe that they are following the original command that came down in the original revelation. but you know, here's a part of the story. "more than three weeks ago"- and i'm quoting from the trib- "a 16-year-old girl was found abandoned, belt-whipped, and severely beaten in remote box elder northwest of salt lake city. the girl said she was trying to escape the seven-month-old forced marriage to her uncle- she reportedly was his 15th wife. you know, later you go over here to vicky prunty,

who is one of the founders of this group tapestry of polygamy, and on her, she says after ten years and five children, prunty left her husband for a man who had two wives. it took her another four years of despair and depression for her to finally realize that she needed to break out of this. and what an interesting thing, it ends up with a quote from this woman who started this group to help women and children who are in polygamous mormon groups around the country. she says- very interesting from the doctrinal point of view- "i wish we could throw out organized religion." hmm. "i think it pits people against each another. but i have a great faith, and i believe it's in god, and i don't believe in fighting a battle i can't win." so she's- having suffered through a doctrinal difficulty, her inability to take a doctrine, based on revelation, at least within this polygamous mormon fundamentalist sect- to be able to see that that was enlightening

to her, that that was helpful to her, and so she breaks out from it. in my 101 class, another interesting case- maybe it was the "religion in america" teleclass that i'll do through independent study, so most of the students i never see; you know, it's mailed around the country. i asked the students to do a paper on any group in america, and i get this paper back that was so amazing by a polygamous mormon sect that even the fellow who wrote, the encyclopedia of american religion, j. gordon melton, had never heard of- way up in the mountains of arizona. and she made me promise never to reveal her name, to never reveal the name of the sect, and i've kept that promise and will continue to. but here she told this amazing story of several families that lived up in the mountains in arizona and practiced this. so it's a tension. and when some groups did not believe in the change that the latter day saints, the establishment church went through, they kept the old

nonconformity doctrine and have to this date done it- and for the most part, they're left alone by the authorities. any comments you might have? sure. >> my sister lives in nauvoo and i visit very often, and i just would like to say that it was very faithfully restored and is completely restored as the 1840s when it was built, and it's lovingly tended. and when you mention zeal, the zeal is still there in a very large measure. they're very proud and nauvoo is supported financially by salt lake city, to see that it gets monies to build its various- rebuild its various buildings. and it's thriving, even though the town is not all mormon. and what has fascinated me is when it was built, the people who built it were very, very skilled tradesmen,

and they built it in a communal type way, so that each family who came helped everyone build the homes, and then when that house was completed, they went on and built another, and the houses were very well built, and are- it's a wonderful place to visit, to see history very much alive. >> you know, you're so right, and you're hitting very close to home, because my 11-year-old daughter lilly's fifth-grade class went to nauvoo, and being a good parent, i chaperoned along, so i was just there a couple weeks ago, and you're so right about the zeal. and it brings up this fascinating question, we talked about it with myth: did joseph smith actually find plates revealed to him by a divine personage that revealed a new book and this plan? well, people are going to argue back and forth, and if you go to nauvoo, as you well know, you're going to find the established christians in town, signs everywhere saying, "this is not true.

don't believe in mormons," all of this. but it's belief and behavior- beliefs and believers- that is so amazing. and you are so right. i was there just now three, four weeks ago, and the women making candles, the mormon men who are on a mission- you know, they're there for free, utah plates, idaho plates- they're there, working there for free, making horseshoes, showing the kids how to make buggies, how to make soap, how to do all these sorts of things. you sense, and you look in their eyes, the joy that this is really doing something for them. they're not making this up, they're not actors- they're there for free and they're there on a mission. and so one reason why i wanted to bring up the mormon religion in this context is, like the amish, look what they put up with and how well they do. well, believe it or not, we have run out of time, but therein is the power of doctrine in that tense battle between secular and sacred.

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