12/12/13 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] >> from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> we want to confirm that he is really gone and no longer with us. >> as thousands way for hours to pay their last respects to nelson mandela, we go to johannesburg, south africa to speak with longtime anti- apartheid activist ronnie kasrils who helped found the

armed wing of the african national congress with mandela. as a youngvolved student. revulsioner shock and for what had happened in the general revulsion against the apartheid system. the anc had been banned. one had friends and contacts. i got deeply involved very quickly. >> after decades living underground, ronnie kasrils went on to become a top military official and the south african government under president mandela and later served as south africa's intelligence minister. we will talk with him about his years with mandela, the apartheid struggle to president zuma, in the future of south africa. all of that and more coming up.

this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the white house says enrollment in obamacare insurance plans continues to improve after a problem plagued first month. people signed up in november, double the month before. more than 800,000 people have also signed up for medicaid eligibility. health and human services secretary kathleen sebelius touted the improvements in an appearance before congress. >> as more americans give healthcare.gov a second look, they're finding the experience is night and day from where we were back in october. and they're responding by shopping for plants and enrolling in greater numbers. >> the white house says it still expects to meet a goal of 7 million enrollees by march. the pentagon has announced a media blackout on information about hunger striking prisoners a quantum on them obey. the latest wave began in

february and grew to as many as 100 six prisoners over the summer. the pentagon now says it will stop disclosing how many prisoners are on hunger strike and will reject all media requests for information. a military spokesperson told al jazeera -- striker's desire to draw attention to themselves, and were not going help them do that." the head of the national security agency appeared before congress wednesday to defend the ball collection of u.s. phone data. general keith alexander compare the mass sweep of phone records to the running of a library. >> if you look at all of the information out there, the billions and billions of books of information that are out there, there is no viable way to go through that information if you don't use metadata. in this case, metadata is a way of knowing where those books are in the library and a way of

focusing our collection, the same our allies do, to look at where are the bad books. from our perspective, the national security agency's perspective, we get great insights into the bad actors overseas. >> a proposal from democratic senator patrick leahy would end the bulk collection of phone records without a court order. but alexander told lawmakers that even if approved, the measure would not necessarily in new orleans collection depending on judicial interpretation. refusingn leaders are to meet with ukraine president theor yanukovych in aftermath of an intensified crackdown, demanding his resignation. dozens of people were winded on wednesday when rightly stormed a large protesting kamman. the officers eventually withdrew after demonstrators refused to leave and ultimately grew in size. in washington, white house

and state department official said the u.s. is considering sanctions against ukraine. >> we were appalled last night by what happened in kiev. the response to peaceful protest over the last two weeks has been unacceptable and difficult understand why they've decided to move against their own people repeatedly with force rather than engage in real dialogue with the opposition. >> all policy options including sanctions, are on the table, in our view, but, obviously, that is still being evaluated. >> protesters in thailand have cut off power to the compound of prime minister yingluck shinawatra amidst the country's worst political crisis in years. dozens have stormed the compound in the latest protests over alleged government corruption. yingluck shinawatra dissolved parliament and called new elections for february earlier this week. but demonstrators are seeking her immediate resignation. her offices and gave a national address today from a separate location.

inuvo to the opposition ,thai military leaders have turned on a meeting request from protest leaders. the top commander of serious western backed opposition has blood across the border -- fled across the borders. it comes after fighters from the islamic front seized his forces races and northern syria. the move prompted the u.s. to suspend all nonlethal aid to syrian rebels. what have spokesperson josh earnest confirmed the freeze. >> we have seen the reports islamic front forces have seized the headquarters in question and warehouses belonging to the supreme military council, and we are concerned by those reports. we are still gathering facts and image ring the supplies that have been provided -- and inventory the supplies that of them provided. as a result, the u.s. has suspended all further deliveries of nonlethal assistance into northern syria. >> a prominent syrian lawyer, he

newman rights activist and leader of the antigovernment protest movement, has been reported missing in a rubble controlled damascus suburb. from zaitouneh disappeared her apartment along with her husband and two other activists after receiving threats from islamist groups. following the chemical attack earlier this year in ghouta, razan zaitouneh appeared on democracy now! to describe the carnage. we could not believe our eyes. i haven't seen such death and my whole life. people were lying on the ground and hallways, on roadsides, in hundreds. there hasn't been enough medical staff to treat them. >> witnesses say razan zaitouneh 's apartment was found ransacked with laptops and other belongings removed. you can go to democracynow.org to see all of our interviews with the syrian activist. the families of two spanish journalists have come forward to reveal the pair's in syria.

journalist javier espinoza and photographer ricardo garcia- vilanova were reportedly seized by al qaeda-the troubles in september. espinoza's wife urged the kidnappers to set them free. >> [indiscernible] >> the family said they have come forward because of an impasse on talks with the pair's captors. the two were apparently trying to leave syria your the border with turkey when they were seized. mexico senate has advanced a controversial measure that would overhaul the country's energy sector. mexican president peña nieto wants to open the state-

controlled oil company to investment from foreign all she gushed multinationals after 75 years of nationalization. ambranon toronto -- z said if given final approval, the measure should go before national referendum. >> we warn all private, national, and transnational business and companies that want to come and invest in mexico in order to expropriate mexican petroleum to think again. the most probable outcome is within a year and a half, a recall referendum will reject this change. >> the energy measure now goes to mexico's lower house for final approval. the obama administration continues to ask lawmakers to hold off on new sanctions against iran during the six- month nuclear deal. iran is receiving a limited forase -- relief in return scaling back its vigor activities. but a bipartisan group of lawmakers is pushing legislation

that would press ahead with sanctions approved by the house over the summer. secretary of state john kerry told a house panel he has doubts about iran's intentions, but said the agreement should be respected. >> i came away from our perimeter negotiations with serious questions about whether or not they're ready and willing to make some of the choices that have been made, but that is what we put to test over the next months. we're asking you to give our negotiators and are experts the time and space to do their jobs, and that includes asking you while we negotiate that you hold off imposing new sanctions. >> despite the administration's request, democratic senator robert menendez and republican senator mark kirk say they expect to introduce new sanctions measures as early as this week. iran has warned any new sanctions would nullify the nuclear deal. she can lawmakers have approved a measure that would make insurance plans charge extra

fees for covering abortions. could it have dubbed it the right insurance law because it would force women to purchase separate policy writers. to her credit senator gretchen witmer denounced the measure. >> this tells women that were raped and became pregnant they should have thought ahead and bought special insurance for it. by moving forward on this initiative, senate republicans want to essentially require andigan women to plan ahead financially invest in health care coverage for potentially having their bodies violated and assaulted. >> michigan would become the night state to require additional fees for abortion coverage. republican governor rick snyder vetoed a similar measure last -- year, but the new law want require his signature. dozens of protesters gathered outside a new jersey immigration jail on tuesday to mark international human rights day. were arrestedrs

after chaining themselves outside elizabeth detention center to show solidarity with day to knees and families separated by deportations. >> there are many immigrants from the new york area that are processed through the new jersey detention center and this is one of the central processing areas. it was very important to do the action here. there are many more actions across the country in arizona, california. we wanted to stand in solidarity with their brothers and sisters across the country and say it is time for president obama to stop the deportations. president obama can do it with the stroke of a pen, can change the lives of millions of immigrants. >> the vigil was part of a national campaign to urge president obama and congress to pass immigration reform and ended deportation quotas. in texas, and immigrant rights group is claiming to have uncovered nearly 100 immigrant inainees who remain jailed el paso, despite being cleared for parole. the national immigrant youth alliance says its organizers

allowed themselves to be detained in order to infiltrate the el paso detention center. you can go to democracynow.org for our web exclusive coverage of the immigration actions in new jersey and texas from felandra lizaire and renee tz. on wednesday, federal officers loskarn andn searched his washington, d.c. home. florida prosecutors have dropped a mystic from his charges against toward zimmerman, the man who killed unarmed african- american teenager trayvon martin. zimmerman was arrested last month after his girlfriend accused him of pointing a shotgun at her and trying to choke her. as she ascends refused to cooperate with prosecutors. zimmerman had been ordered to surrender his firearms after his latest arrest, but will not get them back, as he did after being acquitted of trayvon martin's

murder in july. pope francis has been named "time" magazine's person of the year. francis has capture global attention for his criticism of capitalism, his softer tone on including issues abortion and homosexuality, and his calls to refocus the church toward the needs of the poor. the managing editor nancy gibbs --d the pontiff was chosen "for pulling the papacy out of the palace and into the streets, for committing the world's largest church to confront its deepest needs and for balancing judgment with mercy." a vatican spokesperson reacted to the honor on wednesday. >> man of the year, means that many people have understood the message of the love of god for all. it is a very important message. this is good news. the pope can be happy.

>> pope francis beat out four runners-up -- nsa leaker edward snowden, gay rights activist edith windsor, senator ted cruz of texas, answering president bashar al-assad. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. >> welcome to all our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. the mood in south africa has turned solemn after tuesday's memorial for the late president and anti-apartheid leader nelson mandela. he will lie in state through friday in an open coffin in the capital of pretoria. his body is on view in the eggs was -- exact spot where he sworn in as the country's first black and democratically elected president in 19 years ago. south african police said a line of people waiting to pay their respects stretched nearly four miles long, reminding many of the lines on election day in 1994. earlier wednesday, motorcade transported mandela's coffin

from a military hospital to be displayed from a passing the courthouse where he was sentenced to life in prison. >> among the first to pay their respects were family members and government officials, including mandela's former wife, winnie mandela, and former president f.w. de klerk who freed mandela in 1990 after 27 years in prison. the beloved leader's head and shoulders were visible under a glass cover, and his body was dressed in a brown shirt. many of the south africans who came to see him said they felt closer after the viewing. this is it. we're the first people to be here from the public. he is reallyfirmed gone and no longer with us. >> it was emotional, but very peaceful, the emotions that rose. and carries aere lot of piece around him -- peace

around him. i never would've hope to see him in that coffin, but they guess that is how it is and we should let go and let him rest in peace. emotional, but i guess [indiscernible] >> for more we go to south africa, where we are joined in johannesburg by a man who worked closely with mandela and first met him in 1962. ronnie kasrils was a leading anti-apartheid underground activist, and on the national executive committee of the african national congress for 20 years -- from 1987 to 2007. he was also a member of the central committee of the south african communist party from december 1986 to 2007. >> ronnie kasrils served as minister for intelligence of both -- and postapartheid south africa from 2004 to 2008.

his late wife eleanor was a scottish south african anti- apartheid activist, whose story he recalled in his 2011 book, "the unlikely secret agent." his autobiography is titled, "armed and dangerous: my undercover struggle against apartheid." ronnie kasrils, welcome back to democracy now! >> thank you. >> your thoughts, first, in terms of the passing of nelson mandela and his importance not only in your life, but of the millions of south africans and fighters for justice and freedom around the world. well, in common with so many people close to him as well as who were far away, profound sadness. he was 95 and ill for some time, so i can't say it

came as a surprise. in fact, we were prepared for this. but whenever death strikes, it seems to come like a beast in the night. you are shocked and torn up. but actually given the life he had led and the tremendous example of that extraordinary life of struggle, of being involved in a collective leadership all his life, a facing the death penalty of all those years in prison and denser managing that in coming to wreck -- and in surmounting that in terms of political power and set the country on the course of democracy for to being close to throughout that, leaves a deep, deep pain and an

extraordinary gap in one's life. the term in aing superficial way am a would we all,e was a father to us it was like the passing of one's father. this was a leader in the best sense of the word, a leader who led by example and lead from the front, and could also lead from way a in terms of the shepherd make sure the sheep are going in the right direction. so one is actually filled with enormous strength at a very difficult and complex time internationally, is a global problem in terms of what we face, as for a much in south africa, one digs deep down, as many south africans are now, to the lessons that must be learned. ofit is been a huge period

continued reflection of his , and how weample need to say farewell but how we need to move forward on that long walk to freedom, which doesn't come to an end, to be guided by the tremendous lessons of nelson mandela. >> ronnie kasrils, we have a good amount of time today to talk about the future of south africa as well and the current president. first, we would like to go back in time to the time you first met nelson mandela. tell us when it was, where it was, and what you both did together. >> right. it was in july 1962. it was in a safe house in the city of durban. the house that belonged to a worker.

it was rather small. the room he was ushered into seem to absolutely shrink in terms of the size of the man. he was far taller than i had ever expected, having seen him only through photographs. having heard of him, obviously, but i'm talking about 1962, so i had been in the movement for two years and the armed wing of the , mk for he helped form short, he was our commander in chief. at the young age of 23, i found myself as part of a command of a province. we weren't expecting him. we knew it was an important meeting, but we didn't know who we would be meeting.

we were short of leaders. in, he wasolled quite stern and grim in terms of the times. a little bit of joking came in a little bit later on, but mandela had just gotten back to south africa having slipped out and labeled the black panther that he had gone underground the year before when he let us national strike in 1960 -- when he led a national strike in may 1961 that was brutally put down by the police and was the way they put that strike down, part of the catalyst which brought about the end of [indiscernible] the formation of a new method of struggle.

he had been out of the country. later, andto learn he talked about this a little bit with his discussions with us, olympic training, happen to be in morocco. this was the base of the algerian at the time. everything coming to a head in that country. yet been to ethiopia. he had met with african leaders. about this newd form of struggle in south africa. i yet been to the -- he had been to london to spread the message of the anti-apartheid movement. wasmeeting with us essentially to get reports from us about our work and how we work on pushing tasks from our mission in terms of setting up provinces. and the beginnings just at the

end of the previous year, so something like 6, 7 months previously, of our first sabotage actions -- which is leaders we had participated in personally. otherswere busy training for the underground, setting a machinery, preparing explosives. as a result of his arrest a couple of weeks later, to actually let me say liberate steal than steel -- dynamite from a road construction company, which meant the actions of that sabotage phase of our struggle was on the point of really operations.dramatic the first operations were rather based on the kind of homemade kitchen-type chemicals that

people have read about or you learned about at school. but we were very, very serious and committed and believed we would really when the struggle, helped to galvanize the and fill theple enormous gap left by the banding earlier of the communist party but then in 1960, of the anc in the congress. mandela listened absolutely intently as we briefed him, possibly for a full hour. he showed no expression. very serious mask of a face. when we finished, he put a number of questions to us and then gave us a briefing about what he had been doing outside the country and then discussed the tasks that lay ahead.

theas then a little bit of jocular mandela appeared. without him smiling, we may have junk a little tea and water in that period. it was winter, but it was rather clammy and hot. , "boys" -- that is what he called his, i was the youngest, they were probably 10 or 15 years older than me. he said, "noise, you have to train, be physically fit -- "boys, you have to train, be physically fit." he encouraged us to read as much as possible from international

literature, from books like arms"way's "farewell to as well as other material. importantly, you will never forget, the struggle of can you let freedom. the struggle of canyon led freedom. he said, know how the struggle in africa, the armed struggle against colonialism in africa has been inspired and motivated by its successes and failures. as a 23-year-old, amy, i possibly wanted to show -- i was somewhat of an athlete and i was

in the cross-country class. -- we did not call him a madiba in those days, that came much, much later -- i said, "comrade mandela, i am trying very hard." he said, "are you good at long distance, because that is what we need, my boy." >> i said, sure, i'm going to training for the marathon. at that time, only whites could participate. he said, you have to train very, very hard. we joked a little bit about that. i think within just over a week, the dreadful news arrived that mandela had been arrested on

that road from durban to johannesburg, a tremendous setback. >> ronnie kasrils when we come back from break, as you talk about what you and mandela and the other leadership are doing in the anc, with the conditions on the ground were, now it is referred to as the anti- apartheid movement, but what was apartheid, the reality on the ground? helparrest, also, with the of the caa, locating mandela, giving information over to the african -- south african security forces. ronnie kasrils is with us for the hour in johannesburg, leaving a tripartite activist -- ,eading anti-apartheid activist was a top military official under president nelson mandela. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. our guest for the hour is ronnie kasrils, former top military official under president mandela , was in the anc executive committee for 20 years and also served as the minister of intelligence under president and becky. i want to turn back to a rare televised interview with nelson mandela and he was already in hiding. it was in 1961. >> we have made it very clear in our policy that south africa is

a country of many races. >> that was nelson mandela in hiding in 1961. ronnie kasrils, can you talk about the conditions on the ground, why nelson mandela and so many others got involved in the underground to fight apartheid, and as you mentioned his arrest, the role of the united states and that arrest? the role of an infiltrator in the cia? course, if you were of any color in south africa other than pink, white

pigmentation, any shade of color -- which means mixed race or people of really even light brown complexion who were termed colors -- right through to indigenous by people are african indian orwell as the asian people from india who had been brought in under british rule to serve in the sugarcane plantations in the middle of the 19th century, people who been brought in by the dutch several centuries before bringing in slave labor after the duchess indies, you had with apartheid, after colonial repression and exploitation with the worst

aspects of british rule in relation to that, tempered to some degree by the missionaries and their churches who had helped to provide a bit of education to a black elite such as that which mandela and others came from, you moved been to the 1948 period where apartheid proper was in power, the national party was elected to power. imposing said about very rigid race laws, scores and scores of them regiment in .eople according to their color if you are of mixed race or indian, your second class citizens. if you are black, you're absolutely third class. this was segregation on the grand scale to the legislated

laws of the country at the time. based to quite a degree on nuremberg laws of race and race to termination. -- determination. it was living in an absolute straitjacket of ghettos for certain people in organized labor system, into the mines and farms were you served as absolute menial slave labor for the most pitiful wages in the most dreadful conditions. with white south africa living the life of privilege. so in that sense, what motivated people, you were motivated by the low-pressure and, the exploitation -- the oppression and explication you saw on a daily basis. this was the enormous

indignities of color discrimination, which, of course, were hand-in-hand with class exploitation. but we should also bear in mind, the discrimination according to race and color, those are a thousand slides and cuts a day that's humiliation. backed up by a police state to regiment people to intimidate people, to deal with anybody who raised their voice, who put a foot wrong. so south africa was living in that police state. and the motivation and is yourred to was clear that had to be able to overcome your fears. you had to stand up, get onto your feet. your conscience is what played that role. if you listen to it. this is what drove the likes of mandela and all these other

great leaders of south africa. black likewhite myself, utah the line -- you towed the line. might bee a few of us and others, names you americans know well, who could live with a conscience that basically would allow you to turn away. we were drawn in by this which was repressed, which was underground. if one was lucky were fortunate like i have happened to be for having a relative in the -- it shocked me as it did so many others to the core -- i was able to determine

that i would listen to my conscience and would follow those who lead by example. you see, those two points i would say are crucial to mandela and any leadership. people of conscience, people who lead by example, that pulled me in. in no time, i was very, very involved with clandestine and even the arms struggle. i progressed so swiftly because as an athlete, someone with particular skills and regarded as being little adventure -- and you need young people who are prepared to do things. colored,e many indian, black youth like myself -- i was lucky to be drawn in under units. into the early

>> you mention this whole dynamic a few white south africans who joined with our became part of the anc. i'm wondering how extensive was the involvement of white revolutionaries and radicals in the movement? did you have the kinds of tensions within the anc that obviously developed in the united states and other parts of black power or black consciousness movement developed? werther splits that began to develop between the white comrades in the african or black comrades? how did you work those out? ok, i think there are quite a lot of similarities, to a degree -- obviously, no two places are the same -- between americans experience, and i'm thinking of the deep south, the struggle against slavery and for civil rights.

those experiences of african americans that are referred to that faced people in south africa. and in terms of the nonracial , thee of the struggle numbers of white he became involved were really few. there were exceptional people, people of great quantity and education and bravery like from , they had been in the communist party which started off in the 1920s as basically white involvement of a few hundred people. it was never big. they tended to come from the british trade union movement on ,he one hand, and as in america

immigrants out of eastern europe, particularly russia, a lot of jewish people who had with the jewish bunch of the russian empire. it was a party that sort of [indiscernible] and 1940s, with a large influx of black workers, he begins to change. theblack workers come to fore. there were african nationalist. they were able to also be members and became leaders with the likes of nationalist like mandela of the african national congress. ofinitially, in the period the 1940s into the 1950s, there was quite a bit of tension.

mandela is a perfect example where reflection of this. as an african nationalist. he is a bit weary of the communists in particularly those with the white skin. he regards marxism in the early outside ofomething africa. he is very typical of african nationalism with those particular fears. parties thatiberal tends to be anti-communist, that is not as active as the white in terms of its goals, doesn't even accept full universal franchise. so as the african national theress under mandela into 1950s begins to become very

active, highly militant, and mobilizes by the tens of thousands, the african people of whom huge percentage tends to be people from labor, working class , they begin to change. it deals with the communists, black or white, and the nationalists, the african nationalists in the same way and houserepressed arrested and imprisoned so the two come together. instead of going for the black- white race aspect, let's think of south africa is having to

deep cleavages that i race the black-white divide. and these two devise, one which gives rise to trade unions, to socialist in the commonest party, the other the race divide or national oppression of black people gives rise to the african nationalism. under the repression of apartheid and backed up by its courts and jails and judges and the brutality of its police and thatso the two cleavages are divide and no set reflect them come closer together. thatld say it is a period mandela caps off his suspicion of tremendoussts,

unity emerges in the struggle of the 1950s. the science of unjust laws campaigns. some similarities with the american civil rights movement where blacks and whites volunteers led by mandela would spacesoccupy whites-only in the offices and the railway stations, park benches -- all of these everyday manifestations of apartheid. people were thrown into jail and very seriously were very serious jailwere passed, five-year sentence for a black man sitting on a white man's bench in a park and vice versa. >> ronnie kasrils, let me ask you, was president -- did nelson mandela become a communist? know, at this particular point in time, it is become something of an issue

because of the book written by a british observer called stephen ellis. i have been checking the book again. i would say there are pretty strong clues to indicate for in theeriod, possibly late 1950s into the early 1960s, that mandela was very impressed -- what i understood as a young person joining the communist party, becoming very close to joe slovic particularly, as with any leader in the african arm struggles, wants to know, what marxism was about, what was there from this andlutionary theory programs of action that they could learn?

it is a short period when i would say it is the closing of mandela's connection, of his brother, perhaps coming about. mandela, however, has denied it. there are a couple of people from our movement who say, well, he was in the communist party. there's no documentation. formally a member. i think we have to accept that. there's no conclusive proof. theren if he had been,

were great people who joined. mandela certainly showed he was sympathetic. he was very full of respect for those communist. >> the south african communist , last weekie kasrils said at his arrest in august 1962, nelson mandela was not only a member of the then underground south african commonest party but also a member of our party central committee. we have to take a break. just a 32nd response. >> sure thing. >> we will take a break and get your response, ronnie kasrils, leading anti-apartheid activist, top military official under president nelson mandela and served on the african national congress executive committee for 20 years. for somederground quarter of a century. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. withe spending the hour ronnie kasrils in johannesburg,

south africa. president nelson mandela lies in state in pretoria at the union building as thousands upon thousands are waiting hour after hour to be able to pass by his open casket. that will go on until friday and in the funeral, the state funeral for nelson mandela is this weekend along with his burial in the village where he was born. remained inls the underground for quarter of a century until 1989. he served on the national executive committee of the african national congress for 20 years and went on to be a top military official under president nelson mandela and then onto intelligence minister. amy had asked your question before the break, but if you could answer that quickly, but in a few minutes we have left,

we would be very interested in your assessment of what has happened in south africa since the end of apartheid. because you have been highly critical of what the revolution did not accomplish. in "theed in an article guardian" earlier this year about the bargain you believe the anc, that you in the other leaders of the anc engaged in with the leaders of that only south african capital, but the world capitalists and governments putting pressure on you at the time of the transition to majority rule. i'm wondering if you could answer briefly this issue of whether nelson mandela was a communist party of south africa, but spent most of the time talking about your assessment of the problems that still remain to be solved in south african society. >> sure.

let's deal with amy's point. the communist party something makes their claim a week or so ago. i was in the party from 1961, in a leadership at a very high level for many years, very close to slovo and others. none of them ever made that claim or statement that he had been a member, other than that he had been close and there have been some educational lessons in marxism. now maybe he had been. it is possible. but there's no documents actually proving that conclusively. so for me, it is not a question of wanting to cover up or be embarrassed whatsoever, it is that mandela never acknowledged it. and because there is no real proof, i think it has to rest. it doesn't really do very much. mandela had af

marxist orientation, which he certainly did, i would say for some time, that was dispelled when he emerges from prison 30 years or so later, when he addressely in his first to our people, he commits himself to the socialist freedom charter and the clause that is quite emphatic but doesn't use the word nationalization that says that what we committed to is the control of the hearts of the economy, the mines, the monopoly industry as .nconceivable that will change two years later, he shows a totally different view on the

divorce julying to 1992, very impressed, clearly, as he was in south africa, by the voice of monopoly capital. i'm not saying he bows down to it, but he certainly impressed in terms of what they're able to do. forcomes back and says that growth of the economy, we've got to look to the private sector. and he says it's clear that if we go forward, radical, socialist approach -- uses the term nationalization -- we're not going to get the foreign investment from the capitalist world that we need to make the country run and to overcome our poverty. so it is a total change. thethis is where i say

bargain stems from. it stems not just from mandela who is making this announcement and following this through, but joe slovo, the left-wing of the anc which was predominant, all communist party -- there is no real debate or argument about this. icon,a really is the which you should have been, for his fellow revolutionaries. he is a leader amongst other leaders. he's always about collective. on aandela is very firm course of approach once he is made is up -- made up his mind. i note people like joe and others actually go along with him. now the reason being that the political kingdom is coming close and of course his is a very big issue. we could've had a civil war at

the time. there could've been a enormous bloodshed. there was tremendous threats from the third force, the abradinghe soldiers undercover and with all sorts of right wing elements from the extremists. and we were very concerned. would we be able to move through that situation smoothly and get to a democratic election and form a government based on the people's role? that is an enormous attraction. that is where mandela's greatness shows. but i would say the same time, we pushed the economic issues onto the back burner and successively became distance. so nationalization, command of the hearts of the economy from a this becomes a no-no.

and once that sets in and you get the gates open for a [indiscernible] to come to the fore, junior partners a big capital incorporates an international connections, then we embrace the neoliberal economy of the world today with all of its corruption, with its cronyism -- >> ronnie kasrils, we just have about 30 seconds left. >> in your in the clutches of what we all have our clutches of, the 1%, the corporate world that runs the economy of this planet of ours and is doing so much harm to it, and begins to undermine the political sovereignty and independence of nations. that is the point we're at. that is why we are facing such scandal and corruption with our

political leaders. >> ronnie kasrils, thank you for joining us from johannesburg, south africa. former member of the national executive committee of the african national congress. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]