democracynow.org 02/06/14 02/06/14 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] >> from pacifica, this is democracy now! we begin with a fox news alert, there's a bombshell report that finds obamacare will be much worse for the economy improves the predicted. >> obamacare is a job killer. that was the message across the media this week after the release of a new congressional budget office report. but what does the report really say? we will speak with politico's winning los angeles times

columnist michael hiltzik on "why the new cbo report on obamacare is good news." he also argues, many of the health laws elements could be cured by single-payer system. then the empire of necessity. that inspired her to open up to a full history of slavery and all of the americas, north and south, looking at slavery as the flywheel of the capitalist revolution which to: the americans and elected world starting in the 1770's. commodity, capital, credit, emotional investments. they signaled a status at the same time there were objects of nostalgia. slaves helped the development of capital as both an economic system and an emotional system in ways that i think the story exposed -odes the

-exposed. >> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. syria has missed another deadline for shipping out its chemical weapons as part of the deal reached last year following threats of your strike. the regime of bashar al-assad has handed over just 5% of its stock, far below the timelines 90% goal. assad regime is claiming the delay on its clashes with opposition rebels. the u.n. says it still expects syria to meet a final june 30 deadline. in washington, the director of national intelligence of james clapper, said he believes the weapons agreement has strengthened assad. >> well, the prospects are right now that he is actually in a strengthened position than when we discussed this last year, by

virtue of his agreement to remove the chemical weapons -- as low as that process has been. so if he doesn't go, in the absence of some kind of a diplomatic agreement ensuing from geneva or follow-up discussions, i would proceed more of the same sort of gradual state of stalemate where neither the regime or the opposition can prevail. >> a new report warns children in syria are enduring unspeakable suffering from us at the hands of the assad regime. syrian children have suffered abuses including torture, maiming, and sexual crimes. government forces are said to have been the main culprits, but the reports say rebel groups have committed increasing abuses against children over the past year. at least 23 people have been killed in a series of bombings

in the iraqi capital of baghdad. the attacks came near the heavily fortified green zone housing the iraqi government and several embassies. or than 1000 people were killed in iraq last month. that follows the country's deadliest year since 2008. the israeli government has authorized a new round of settlement construction in the occupied west bank. over 550 homes are planned for three settlements surrounding jerusalem, whose borders israel has extended beyond the internationally recognized dreamliner. the move was announced as israel demolished three palestinian homes in east jerusalem. the news follows a public spat earlier this week between the israeli government and secretary of state john kerry after john kerry said israel will face intensified global woodcuts if it fails to make peace with the palestinians. ae united nations has issued harshest condemnation to date of the catholic church cover-up of child sexual abuse.

in an a report, the u.n. committee on the rights of the child says the vatican has consistently placed its reputation above the welfare of child victims. the panel chair said the vatican has enabled a culture of impunity that has wronged tens of thousands of children. >> the main finding of the committee was that they have adopted policies and practices which have led to the andinuation of the abuse by the impunity of the perpetrators. the holy city has consistently placed the preservation of the reputation of the church and the protection of the arbitrators above children's best interests. >> report calls on the vatican to hand over alleged or known abusers to law enforcement worldwide, and release its entire archive on child sex abuse cases. supreme court has ordered an unprecedented probe of a 1981 massacre of civilians by u.s.-backed troops.

around 45 people, including women and children, were killed by the salvadoran military in the town of san francisco angulo. the investigation comes days after former rebel leader just missed an all-out victory in a first-round presidential elections, setting up a runoff for next month. the el salvador supreme court is also reviewing the challenge to a 1993 law granting amnesty for atrocities by el salvador's right-wing governments. federal officials are claiming the water supply in west virginia is safe despite continued local warnings to avoid consumption. residents have been told they can drink the water only a month after a chemical spill cut off 300,000 people for up to a week. but despite the safety clearance, doctors are still advising pregnant women and children under three to use alternative sources of water. two schools in charlestown were close on wednesday after the water had the same licorice smell as it did during the spill and students complained of

chemical related symptoms. the company behind the keystone xl pipeline is facing the scrutiny at home. the canadian broadcaster cbc news has revealed regulators buried a report about a rupture on a transcanada natural gas pipeline in 2009. an investigation cited transcanada for inadequate inspections and ineffective oversight. but for unknown reasons, the incident was never publicly disclosed in the report never released. the canadian government has been a vocal proponent of transcanada 's plans for the keystone xl. speaking to cbc, environmental policy expert nathan lemphers said reports disappearance raises questions. >> is early seems fishy from the outside that this report was kept quiet due to an apparent administrative error. certainly, if the report came out, it would have been risen to immediate public attention.

>> the drugstore chain cvs has announced it will stop selling tobacco products in its thousands of u.s. stores. brennan president troy says the company has decided the sale of cigarettes does not fit in health care setting. >> part of the overall health care team. it is antithetical as a result of a product like tobacco that causes these kinds of diseases. that is why it is one for trust to a limited the sale of tobacco products today. >> protest up and held in 20 cities around the world to protest russia's crackdown on lgbt rights. the all-out protest were part of a series of actions organized around russia's hosting the winter olympics in sochi, which begins on friday. in london, protest organizer marie campbell called on the games corporate sponsors to speak out. >> this year's corporations are saying one thing and some country that their pro-gay, but

they're standing silent in other parts of the world where the consumers and employees are suffering under anti-gay laws. >> two freed members of the russian punk group pussy riot were honored wednesday night at a concert organized by amnesty international. they are in the u.s. following the release from prison in december. nearly two years behind bars for protesting russian president vladimir putin inside an orthodox cathedral. thousands atd of the barclays center in new york, the pop star madonna introduced the pussy riot members. >> i do not take this freedom for granted, and neither should you. ok? so the two members of pussy riot that i'm about to introduce do not have this right in the country they come from. they do not share this freedom with me come and so they must be

commended for their courage and for their fearlessness. [applause] that would be a yay. you can do better than that. they must be commended! will not forget and we will not forget what the regime is doing to our fellow citizens. we demand a russia that is free, a russia without putin. >> earlier in the day, the two women from pussy riot met with the u.s. ambassador to the u.n. samantha power, prompting rebuke from powers russian counterpart. meanwhile at a news conference before the concert, the women responded to reports of a rift within pussy riot. jailed, pussye riot immediately became very popular and widely known. it has turned from a group into essentially an international movement. anybody can be pussy riot.

you just need to put on a mask and stage an act of protest against something in your particular country, wherever that may be, that you consider unjust. >> and we are not here as leaders of pussy riot or determining what pussy riot is and what it does and what it says. we are just two individuals that spent two years in jail for taking part in a pussy riot protest action. >> six anonymous members of pussy riot have released a letter saying the two women are no longer members and calling the sale of concert tickets and the use of an event logo displaying a man and a pussy riot mask and extreme contradiction to the group's principles. other performers at wednesday's event included the flaming lips, blondie and yoko ono. those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. welcome to all our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world.

turn now to the latest controversy over obama care. on tuesday, the congressional budget office released a 175-page report on the nation's budget and economy over the next decade. the cbo report coakley became the top story of the day. -- quickly became the top story of the day. >> fox news alert, the new cbo report finds obamacare may be worse for the economy to prove maybe worsected -- than predicted. >> substantially larger than estimated, nearly three times larger. that adds $1 trillion to the debt. dobbs, wow. this thing was dropped about 90 minutes ago. what are we to think now? non- -- you arertisan, as

saying. we're looking at another round of devastating numbers for all americans because the result of this is, there will be fewer jobs. >> that was fox news report on tuesday. many other media organizations and right-wing pundits quickly claimed the cbo report proved the affordable care act is a job killer. any outlets claim the report found obama care would result in the loss of about 2.5 million full-time jobs will stop "washington post" website wrote -- >> it turns out these initial misinterpreted the report's findings. on wednesday, the director of the congressional budget office said the agency has found obama care "spurs employment and would reduce unemployment over the next few years." our first guest michael hiltzik

's approval to prize-winning columnist at "the los angeles times." he wrote a piece titled, "why the new cbo report on obamacare is good news." he has also argued many of the health laws ailments can be cured by single system. we will get to that in a moment. michael hiltzik, welcome to democracy now! start off by just explaining what exactly is congressional budget office report says. had a number of elements about the affordable care act. it said, number one, it found the cost of providing affordable coverage and sensible coverage to americans was lower than it had initially estimated. of insuring cost against risk by insurance companies that are participating in the affordable care act is lower than expected. in fact, risk management will actually return a profit to the

u.s. government. and it reaffirmed this act was going to bring coverage to as many as 25 million americans a year who might not otherwise have it. all of those elements are great for americans. it really shows the aca is working as it was anticipated to work. >> what about the confusion of the initial reports and the take they had on the report? and the issue that 2.5 million people who might choose to leave their jobs, could you talk about that? >> sure. this is a part of the aca the cbo talked about. is that the equivalent of 2.5 2025on workers by the year will be cutting their hours or maybe leaving the workforce. many of them voluntarily. that is because what the aca to please what we

call job log. after the passage of the affordable care act, that is no longer the case. you can now get affordable care regardless of pre-existing conditions. you can get it in the public market. you don't have to worry about being turned down. you don't have to worry about paying exorbitant premiums. that means you don't have to worry about giving up your job or losing your job or cutting your hours. so you are free to spend more time raising her family. you are free to retire early, maybe before you get your full social security and before you're eligible for medicare. these are good things because one thing we have understood about the impact of losing your health care is that it forces people to stay in jobs that are dignified, art the right jobs for them, that aren't very well paying simply so they have health care for

themselves and their families. it is no longer the case with the aca. books i want to go to a clip from a press reefing on tuesday when the chair of the white house council of economic explain the cbo report's findings. >> in fact, what cbo found, and this is her summary quote near the top of appendix c -- reduction stems almost entirely from a net decline in the amount of labor that workers choose to supply rather than from a net drop in businesses demand for labor." what is relevant about that is their word itself is "choose." this is a choice on the part of workers. i have no doubt for example, if we got rid of social security and medicare, there are many 95-year-olds that would choose

avoidk more to potentially starving were to give themselves an opportunity to get health care. i don't think anyone would say that was a compelling argument to eliminate social security and medicare. says theyhere, cbo are choices workers are making in the face of new options afforded to them by the affordable care act, not something about firms destroying jobs. >> sure of the white house council of economic advisors, explaining the cbo report's findings. michael hiltzik, if you could expand from there? >> i think what he was talking about, the point he was making, the affordable care act really is at its core social insurance and it really is an extension, an expansion of the social insurance we have had in this and thesince 1935 enactment of social security and then, of course, medicare.

this is the next that. she really is saying -- he is absolutely right that one of the goals of the affordable care act was to relieve americans of this burden of having to work in bad jobs were in jobs that really interfere with their retirement or their family obligation just to get health insurance. >> michael hiltzik, what does the report say about the other side of this, the actions of employers, some employers possibly reducing the number of hours that they give to their workers in an effort to escape the mandates of the affordable care act? >> this has been one of the 10 arts about the affordable care act that we hear a lot from the right -- canards about the affordable care act that we hear from a lot of the people from the right. they are cutting back full-time workers are part-time so they can escape the mandates.

we know from economist who have been studying this for years that that is not the case. the cbo report underscores that. it also finds there's absolutely no evidence that there has been any sort of growth in part-time work at the expense of full-time work as a result of the affordable care act. whatct, it reiterates other economists have found, which is that in fact, part-time work is growing at a smaller pace than full-time work. in other words, we're getting more full-time employment in this country relatively less hard time employment, and the part-time employment we are getting is also voluntary. it is people who don't want to work a full day or full hours because they do have family obligations or other obligations. so the cbo really did confirm what everybody else has seen and it should, in the real world, or in the same world, put to rest this idea the affordable care horde ofeating a

part-time workers. >> the people want to work fewer hours, doesn't mean there will be more jobs available? >> in fact, one of the things the cbo report did say is it to certain aca extent will spur more employment. the unemployment rate will come down in part because people are leaving the workforce, but also because there's going to be more demand for jobs, more demand for workers, especially in the health care field. this is all good. the cbo report really says this is good for employment across the country. >> what does it say about the whole issue of the government turning a profit under the affordable care act for the upcoming years? >> sure. one of the elements of the affordable care act is, especially in the near-term when insurance companies are feeling their way around the act of learning how to deal with what

could be 30 million more customers, there are built-in sort of speed governors that ensure the companies are not penalized for taking on riskier new customers. that is older customers, sicker customers, known as -- there is considered reinsurance. companies can have unexpected high levels of riskier and more expensive customers will be subsidized by the government and the government will in return charge companies that have better experience, they will have to pay a rebate back. in the past, the cbo has assumed this will be neutral. in other words, there will be as much going out to help companies that have higher risk as coming from companies that have lower risk. what it found out or what it says in the latest report is in fact there is going to be more money, in from companies with

lower risk than is going out to companies with higher risk. in the differences $8 million over 10 years. that will come into the treasury from the insurance industry to manage this risk. tothat actually is a profit the government. what is important about that, republicans have been trying to in theis risk provision aca. they've been calling it a bailout of the insurance industry. what we see now is in fact, if they kill it, that will be a cost to the government. >> michael hiltzik, you have a ."w piece headlined, "job lock you cite paul ryan in 2009 about health insurance plans. this is a clip of what he said then. >> a relic of world war ii, discriminates against the self-employed, gives the unemployed, and against those people who do not get health coverage at their jobs.

this may have worked in america when everybody had the same job throughout their lives and their careers, but that is not the america we have today. a lot of people change their jobs. the tax benefit should change and go with them and not the attached to their jobs. we want to address job lock. the key question that should be addressed in any health care reform legislation is, are we going to keep job lock or allow individuals or choice import ability to fit the 21st century workforce? we propose to equalize the tax treatment of health care, giving every american -- regardless of employment status -- the ability to purchase health insurance will stop and if you like what you've got, you can keep it. >> michael hiltzik, how does this compare to paul ryan's position today? >> i think commerce and ryan still believes -- i think congressman ryan still believes that job lock is a bad thing, but because it is associated with the affordable care act,

which republicans are supposed to the test, he has had to change his tune a little bit. then we heard that any a hearing he conducted just yesterday. in the past, as you heard, congressman ryan and other republicans have talked about job lock preventing people from starting businesses, from going back and raising their families, retiring early -- all of these things we know that the cbo talked about. now because that is supposed to the departure of these workers from the workforce is now supposed to be bad because it is associated with the aca, he is sort of recharacterize them and now talking about them as though they are just slackers waiting for a handout. we heard this at the hearing yesterday when he talked about how because these people are going to get a benefit from the affordable care act, they are going to give up the dignity of work. of course, it really takes somebody sitting in the chairman's seat of the senate --

house committee to not understand that a lot of work is undignified and people are engaging innocently because they need health insurance. but that is what you're hearing. your hearing a resurgence of this old conservative about the undeserving poor and what they're suggesting is that people take advantage of the benefits of the affordable care act for to do something else with their lives than work in a -deadening job are the undeserving poor, slackers, slobs, taking advantage of other taxpayers. i think that is dishonest and unfair. >> last night in new york at this big amnesty international concert that was honoring pussy riot, i interviewed george gresham, president of 1199 seiu. he was one of a number of public figures who spoke on the stage at the event. you aren't advocating single-payer -- you are

advocating single-payer. how do you expand the discussion be on the affordable care act? >> i think that is a good point. first, the affordable care act has to succeed. i think people have to understand the advantage of this program, what it means to have affordable health care in this country. then i think we can move to that next discussion. i do worry the reason the right wing is trying so hard to sabotage the affordable care act , because i think they know the next logical solution after that would be a more expanded proposal health care coverage, in which many of those legislators enjoy themselves. >> he represents about 400,000 health care workers. michael hiltzik, you have written extensively about single-payer. act,a, the affordable care as a stepping stone to single-payer? do you see that happening? >> i see it happening, but that

is a very long-term project, unfortunately. what we're seeing with the aca is that it is a major step toward single-payer. it does not really bring us there, but what may happen over the next years and may take decades is that people will come to the realization that all of the problems they see and that we see in the implementation of the affordable care act are associated with the fact that the act puts the private commercial health-insurance industry at the center of delivering health care to americans. in fact, more than it was from the enactment. the health insurance industry is the estimate of delivering the aca to people. and all of the problems that we see, all of the difficulties with the federal government's website, all of the confusion that we are still hearing from patients and customers really has to deal with the fact that ofhave left the delivery

health care to private insurers. and over time, i think most americans will come to realize to happend what needs will happen. and that is to take private impose an enormous cost on the delivery of health care, that they will go away. the long-term project will take 10 years, 20 years, maybe even longer. there have to be a lot of changes in the american system that happened before that can happen. >> in that context, michael hiltzik, what is happening with the existing private insurers, with the old i guess you would call them the legacy health-insurance programs that existed before the affordable care act, sort of reinforced that. and from blue cross in california just announced a huge increase in their premiums for about 300,000 other customers in california for 25% increase. these companies are still hiking their premiums and making health

insurance increasingly unaffordable. so even for those americans who have it now, because there are companies that have to pay them or they have to pay a portion of their premiums as well. >> another thing give scene is there is a real convergence -- another thing we have seen is there is a real divergence within the exchanges of the aca from depending on where they live still. that is another artifact of this reliance on the private insurance industry. in some states and some communities wrecking california, you see a fair amount -- like in california, you see a fair amount of competition among insurance companies within the individual exchanges. in other states, you might see one company that really dominates the market. those people are paying relatively higher premiums, even under the aca, than in other states. i think that will be something the american public begins to notice, pretty strongly, as the

implementation of this act continues. eventually, they will see the logicalwer -- the only answer for delivering health care is through a single-payer system. >> michael hiltzik, thank you for being with us, pulitzer prize-winning columnist for "the los angeles times." we will have a link to your pieces on democracynow.org the latest is, "why the new cbo report on obamacare is good news." michael hiltzik is also the author of, "the new deal: a modern history." stay with us. we go to greg grandin next month "the empire of necessity: slavery, freedom, and deception in the new world." stay with us. ♪ [music break]

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. >> we're going to spend the rest of the hour discussing remarkable new book that shows how the transnational slave trade transform the world, causing massive economic am social, and political upheaval in ways that continue to reverberate today. the book is written by the acclaimed historian greg grandin and it is called, "the empire of necessity: slavery, freedom, and deception in the new world." tells the true story of a slave insurrection aboard a ship whichthe trial in 1805 in was african men and women rose up and sees the vessel. >> the uprising inspired herman melville to write his novella "benito cereno" that you're on the memoirs of captain delano, a distant relative of president reagan roosevelt. greg grandin has used the dramatic incident to show how slavery was the flywheel that

drove the global development of everything from trade and insurance to technology for religion, and medicine for nearly 400 years. for more we go right to greg grandin who teaches latin american history at new york university. greg grandin, welcome to democracy now! tell us the story. >> it begins the story of a distant relative of franklin roosevelt. he was in the south pacific hunting seals and came upon a distressed spanish slave ship that was in trouble. point oh along trellis seagrass, was in bad shape. he boarded the ship. he was alone on the ship with who he thought was the captain.

men and west african wome women. he thought it was in distress but normally functioning slave ship. he was told the ship had run and the mishit and that is why there were many spaniards around. he kept noticing the strange relationship between the spanish captain and a west african who was introduced as the body servants my personal slave. who would not leave the two captains alone to talk, even though he kept asking if we could step aside to talk. he tended to him faithfully. he wiped spittle from his mouth as he was in a bad state, the spanish captain of the ship. and he was an experienced mariner. this was his third trip around the world. he could not see the west africans were in charge, that over 50 days earlier, they had seized the ship, killed most of

the spaniards. remember, this is in the south pacific, not the atlantic. they sailed or demanded to be returned to west africa. the spanish captain tried to buy time for not wanting to round the cape into the atlantic. that is when they came across delano's ship. they could have fought or fled. but instead, they came up with this remarkable plan. they were starving. they were dehydrated and thursday. two women and two children died. yet he managed to stage this nine-our pantomime of the master slave relation to treat this new england mariner who understood himself as a reformer, forward-looking man of the world who had a realistic vision of how things worked. it is remarkable story. >> how did you first come across this story?

you travel all around the world to basically research archives to find out the details of what had happened. -- herman melville, 50 or so after the event, he reads about the story and memoirs and turns it into this haunting novella. class.d that in the not because i thought it was true, but i thought it was a nice, novelistic illustration of u.s.-latin american relations during the time of slavery. -- literarysecret scholars do it was based on a true story. and more doing more research into it. it just opened up into this incredible history. >> talk about the links between slavery and capitalism, and the phrase the spanish used, the free trade and blacks.

>> we think of this explosion after the cotton gin, after the movement to the west, after the war of 1812 was something that happened in the 19th century. new world -- slavery existed since columbus landed in the americas, and the new world. it wasn't until the 1770's, first in the caribbean and in brazil, portuguese, then spanish america, that european powers -- spain and portugal -- again to deregulate the type mercantile restrictions that had governed slavery for centuries. basically, unleashing privatizing, deregulating. trade ined it the free blacks. this kicks off this remarkable market revolution that revolutionizes the new world in which what happens in the united states after 1812 is the last days of. remember, delano leaving and 1803. a lot of people thought slavery

is on its the south way out in the south. he sees a preview in some ways of the violence and ecological destruction associated with slavery that would grip the united states decades later. he was sailing in some ways into the future. >> one of the things you talk about in terms of the slaves who engaged in this insurrection was that many of them were muslims. you go to great length to discuss the muslim influence on the african slaves here and its impact on the development of not only spain, but also of the americas. >> historians estimate that as many as 10% of all of the west african or all africans born into the americas were muslim. these west africans -- they were

brought out of different places across theica and atlantic and marched across the whole of the americas and over the andes and tracked her movements by following the islamic calendar. they rose up on the holiest day of ramadan. there is a way in which islam -- one of the things i try to make the case for implicitly in the book and explicitly the essay wrote in "the nation," this nation of the clash of civilizations between islamic world and the western world and .he fault line it is just nonsense when you think about the history of slavery. you might as well say islam was present in america from the so, tong, often covertly the institution of slavery. 4, this is the time ,1803, 180 of the first slavery uprising.

>> haiti declares itself independent in 1804. a generationpens after the american revolution from a generation before spanish-american wars of independence from the haiti, the first and only slave revolt that leads to the creation of a republic, the second republic in the americas takes place. the west african/early -- actually asked to be taken to a land of blacks that they heard exist in these waters. the captain says no such land exists. immediate denial of the reality of haiti. he certainly did not want to sail the ship to haiti. it was after that that the west africans returned to senegal. named is the delano after? a militiale who was member during the seven-year war with the british forces. he was involved.

this is a little side tension in the story, he was involved in a massacre of native americans off the connecticut valley near canada. and fleeing from retribution from the community, they got lost in the winter coming down the connecticut valley and wound up killing the native american prisoners of war they had an cannibalizing them. all of his other siblings were named william and alexander and his other innocuous names, for some reason, his parents named him after his uncle who was in -- pretended something not - >> over the last 30 or 40 years, we have had enormous amount of scholarship on the african slave trade and links to economic development here and in the world. this one insurrection on

one ship as a prism to look at the entire system, what were some of the new insights that you think the reader will take away from your book that hasn't really been mined by previous colors? >> a lot is based on work of scholars that one before and mine is a close study, a narrative history that follows these two tracks. one is the history of the west africans out of west africa into buenos aires and across the americas, and the other follows delano, and into the pacific as a seal hunter in the intersection of those two stories and narrative lines. i think it provides the full list of slavery. he a sense of not just the middle passage and the horrors of that we know of, but a second middle passage across the american continent. and over the andes, the highest point in the americas and down to the pacific. first there was an incredible ordeal of these west africans.

there is the fullness of that. he gives the fullness of slavery's importance. as i mentioned earlier, this market revolution. 804 when the west africans were brought into buenos aires, more slaves were brought into buenos aires that year than any previous year. inwas just this free-for-all a free trade in blacks, this unleashing of the market. >> in cuba, the huge trade in slaves takes off the 19th century. >> yes, around this time. i think he gives the sense of not just the geographic dimensions from the atlantic and across the pacific, but the fact that delano -- a mistake on a logical sense. he was caught up in this race terror in his own involvement in putting down rebellious dutch rebellion was he finds out the reality of the situation. but 50 years later when herman melville reads about the story, what delano sales into in the

pacific has come full bore into the united states. it gives the sense of the chronological ability of this revolution. >> compare the delanos. brother. was his be you actual is involved but wasn't there for the deception and its repression. he was off sealing on his own ship. he was involved in other incidents of race violence outside. what is interesting, they are both failures in different ways, frankly. they are involved in the boom of ofling,, taking out hundreds thousands of skins and making an enormous amount of money. withthe bust of sealing this incident happens. whenboth represent i think they come back to the united delano was a

republican in the sense of the word back then. yet almost a general tolerance understanding of cultures. that devault into a kind of jaundice skepticism about america, about christianity, about the whole moderation. he becomes much more pessimistic. samuel becomes much more of a fundamentalist. when he comes back to the united states, and he is as much a failure as, he doubles down on christianity. he embraces a kind of fire and brimstone christianity. in some ways, i think they encapsulate -- if you think of the new right and the new left coming out of vietnam. the new left is skeptical and type your list. that is in the political form. but cynical in general.

and the new right becomes more certain about american powers. in some ways i think they prefigured that two polls of what happened when the u.s. -- when people involved themselves, participate in the racial terror outside the u.s. borders. -- separate piece you're trying to make not only a literary analysis and also bringing in modern politics when you're talking about the difference between melville's two books, not only his book on this incident, but also "moby dick" and the difference between whaling and sealing. could you talk about that? >> ahab is an emblem, a symbol of unhinged american power, , dammingal, ambitious god in the heavens, driving everyone around him to ruination. he has held up almost as a precursor to modern to

tele-trainers him and which is able to pull his men into his power -- totalitarianism in which is able to pull his manages power, attachment. representssa delano the control of labor in the moment of diminishing natural resources. amasa delano was basically in the middle of this bust. there were no seals to kill, no money to be made. his men are complaining and conspiring against him. he is resorting to more physical punishment in order to maintain his authority until they come upon this ship. ahab rallies his men in pursuit of a metaphysical white whale. amasa delano rallies his men in pursuit of black rebels, real black rebels. and doing so in putting down the rebellion, he reaffirms his authority. i think it is much more of a social or political economic analysis of u.s. power that amasa delano represents. >> talk about the leader of the africans on the ship.

>> he was an older west african and he and his son are often credited as the organizers. it wasamrui the pretense to be benito's humble servant. melville combines the characters. maybe he got the name babo was more evocative of something. in the story, babo is a loyal servant. it is remarkable for trail and for trail andfo rendition. we don't know the slaves are in charge and babo isn't a loyal servant until the end of the story, until melville reveals it to be so. i think melville is capturing a line of racial tropes that are developing in the 1850's. "unclecompare benito to

tom's cabin". beecher stowe presents africans as transparent and innocent, christlike. there is no dissension between what is on the outside and what is on the inside. and we can support them. that is why she's making the case for emancipation. portrays is africans as cunning, hiding what they are , and historical figures willing to visit the violence -- perpetuated on them with equal violence. fascinating. >> we are talking to greg grandin teaches latin american history at new york university. his new book is, "the empire of necessity: slavery, freedom, and deception in the new world." this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we will be back in a moment. ♪ [music break]

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. our guest is greg grandin. his new book is, "the empire of necessity: slavery, freedom, and deception in the new world." we want to turn to the latest that is happening. honduras within president hernandez was sworn into office despite claims of election fraud by the opposition. hernandez was pushed or militarizing honduras as part of the fight against drug cartels, raising concerns about potential human rights abuses. thousands of people protested outside his swearing-in, including members of parliament, while soldier stood by him"

committee. the protest was led by former president maine well zelaya was ousted in a coup in 2009 and his wife xiomara castro ran against hernandez with the libre party. >> no one can attain the people organized and resistance. party owns has been gained. four years ago we were repressed in the streets. today, we are recognized institution and we are walking forward little by little in order to overthrow the dictatorship and power in honduras. clip., that was a i wanted ask him a greg, that was former president zelaya speaking now in the congress. your take on what has been going on in honduras? thehe new social movements, libre party, i mean, hundreds was basically governed by

rotating power between liberals and the nationalists. they traded power back and forth. that is was a lack -- that is what zelaya represented back in 2009, kind of social wing of progressive wing of the party returning to some social democratic roots. that split now has completely happen. i believe quite a bit of fraud and manipulation intimidation in the last elections. only 51% of the electorate voted. "but whether the new government has a mandate or not, but i think it is fairly clear the libre party has driven out wedge. they have a good chunk in congress. something like 39 seats. men well zelaya himself is in it. you see the old congress. it talked about a permanent revolution. their permanent to going on in honduras. they issued a barrage of laws advertising whatever was left to privatize and passing laws that

made dissent mobilization and protest that much more difficult and punitive. so we will see i think a new cycle with zelaya in congress and institutionally, this opposition having power and having a voice. >> meanwhile, turning to el salvador, a former rebel commander in el salvador has finished first in the country's presidential election and the setting up a runoff vote for next month. justok 48.9% of the vote, shy of 50% needed that would have avoided a second round. he will square off against the right-wing candidate norman quijano who placed second with just 39%. before sunday's vote, sánchez attended mass at the chapel where archbishop oscar ramiro was assassinated by u.s.-backed death squads arch 24, 1980. on sunday, voters went to the polls. this is one of the people who

was voting for expressing his hopes for his country. >> what i hope for is more jobs for all the young people, and an increase in salary. i want everything to change. can you talk about what is happening in el salvador right now and the significance? >> the most remarkable thing is is a transfer of power from the fmln. he did not really come out of where salvadorle sánchez does. it is remarkable victory. but in some ways come the same things going on. politics happens on a certain level and he chose the endurance of the left and certain social democratic vision of politics in latin america and central america, but air is what goes on institutionally -- congress with you nor was u.s. treasures passing a number of dutch with

enormous u.s. pressures passing a number of private partnerships. it is just more of the neoliberal washington consensus being institutionalized. how much room sánchez will have to maneuver might even be less than the last four years. >> your sense after all this research you have done on your book, the lesson for today in this durable of history of slavery and its involvement in terms of creating the conditions? >> what i like to do is contrast the social democratic culture and latin america, this notion that democracy is a form of economic justice, which is deep and can't be rooted out and can't be expunged no matter how much washington and local elites have tried in latin america. and what is a much more narrow vision of democracy, a kind of hope of individual supremacy that still reigns supreme in the

united states. i think it is related -- we don't have time to go into it, but different forms of slavery took in the u.s. and in latin america and the ways it ended. i think melville had his boat -- pulse on something with amasa delano. channelsm was rooted in slavery but outlived chattel slavery. it was not justified by philosophy or religion but almost in the psychic need to reaffirm once absolute freedom and relationship to another's lavishness and this supremacy that galvanizes the right has its roots in slavery. >> and the reason for the title? >> it is a melville quote. it is an epigram from a short story that people think melville wrote himself that i think is this denial of the obligation that people have to one another, the dependencies that justice being human they have -- again, going back to this fetish of

individualism that is the united states. >> thank you for being with us, greg grandin. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]