[captioning made possible by democracy now!] from pacifica this is democracy now... >> i signed an executive order that puts individuals who violate the integrity of the ukraine were still the assets of the ukrainian people. >> as crimea's parliament votes to hold a referendum on leaving russia in 10 days, president obama and his european union allies announce sanctions to

punish russia for occupying crimea. some are calling it the worst east-west crisis since the cold war. we'll host a roundtable discussion. venezuelan president nicolas maduro cuts off ties with panama. >> be quiet, sir, and do not meddle with someone who did not call you. venezuela is not going to have a debate about its internal situation. >> debate on the unrest in venezuela, who is protesting. all of that and more. to democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. russian president vladimir putin is rebuffing warnings from the

u.s. and european union as the crisis in ukraine threatens one of the worst east-west standoffs since the cold war. putin held a one-hour phone call with president obama on thursday but continued to reject calls to withdraw his forces from crimea. on thursday, the pro-russian crimean parliament voted to hold a referendum on splitting off from ukraine and joining russia. but the vote's legitimacy has been called into question after the installation of a pro-russian government in crimea just last week. in washington, president obama said the seperation of crimea would violate international law. >> the proposed referendum would violate the ukrainian constitution and international law. any discussion about the future of ukraine must include the legitimate government of ukraine. in 2014, we are well beyond the days when borders can be we -- we drawn over the head of democratic leaders. obama spoke hours after issuing visa bans on russian and ukrainian officials linked to

the crimean occupation. russia claims it's protecting russian-speaking residents in the aftermath of the ouster of ukraine's elected government last month. we'll have more on the crisis in ukraine after headlines. the senate has rejected a measure that would have moved the handling of military sexual assault cases outside the chain of command. democratic senator kirsten gillibrand had led a campaign to strip military commanders of authority over sexual assault cases in favor of an independent military prosecutor. but ten democrats joined with republicans to defeat gillibrand's proposal. the military has faced increased calls to reform oversight following a report showing around 26,000 sex crimes within the ranks in 2012. after thursday's defeat, senator gillibrand paid tribute to the military sexual assault victims who came forward to lobby congress.

>> many of them may never wear the uniform again, but they believe so strongly in the reforms that for a full year they have come with us to meet with senators and members of congress to tell the stories of what they endured and why the system is so broken. tragically, today, the senate failed them. thursday's vote came just as the -- >> thursday's vote came just as the u.s. army's top prosecutor for sexual assault cases was suspended for alleged sexual assault. lieutenant colonel joseph morse is accused of groping and trying to kiss a colleague at a legal conference on sexual assault in 2012. morse is the latest in a series of army officials involved in sexual assault punishing.an army an army general meanwhile accused of sexual assault has pleaded guilty to three lesser charges. brigadier general jeffrey a. sinclair admitted to adultery,

asking junior female officers for nude photos and possessing pornography while deployed in afghanistan. sinclair will continue to fight assault charges and says he wants to face his accuser in court. a second probe has been confirmed in the dispute between the cia and a senate panel over a report on the agency's torture and rendition program. members of the senate intelligence committee say cia officials illegally monitored their staffers' work as they compiled the panel's exhaustive report on cia torture. the report has yet to be released but reportedly documents extensive abuses and a cover-up by cia officials to congress. the cia inspector general is already investigating whether agency officials monitored computers that senate aides used while conducting research at cia headquarters. now the fbi has launched a probe of the senate staffers for potentially removing classified material from the cia during their investigation. the documents in question reportedly included an internal cia review that sided with the

senate's findings of that cia committed widespread torture while yielding little in valuable intelligence. president obama is facing increasing calls to stop his record deportations of undocumented immigrants. obama granted a reprieve in 2012 to undocumented youths who came to the u.s. as young children, but critics want that extended to their parents and all those who would be spared under the proposed immigration reform obama has endorsed. in statements this week, three democratic senators who helped draft the bipartisan immigration reform bill -- robert menendez of new jersey, dick durbin of illinois, and chuck schumer of new york -- have called on obama to stop the deportations. speaking at the group's annual gala, the head of the national council of la raza, janet murguía, called obama the

nation's "deporter in chief." >> for us, the president has been deported in chief. any day now, the nation will reach a staggering number for deportation that far outstrips any predecessors and leaves behind it a wake of devastation for families across america. president says his administration does not have the authority to act on its own. all we hear is no -- no from congress, no from the administration. here is the thing -- we will not take no for an answer. >> responding at a town hall event on thursday, obama called himself the "champion-in-chief" of comprehensive immigration reform and repeated his claim to have done all he can within the confines of the law. house republicans have all but ruled out an immigration reform vote until after the mid-term elections. obama also came under criticism from immigration advocates this

week over priorities in his 2015 budget. the request seeks funding for speedier deportations, expanding immigration courts, and the controversial "secure communities" program involving local law enforcement in deportations. in a statement, the national day laborer organizing network said quote -- "the administration cannot hide its own record behind republican extremism when it continues to propose funding for extremely cruel enforcement." >> the energy giant duke energy has been ordered to stop pollution. on thursday, and a state judge reversed a north carolina environmental management commission ruling that left duke off the hook for immediately cleaning up contaminated groundwater. the decision comes just weeks after duke spilled over 35 million gallons of coal ash into the dan river, one of the worst

such spills in u.s. history. a coalition of environmental groups had brought the case to challenge what they called lackluster state oversight. in a statement, the waterkeeper alliance said quote: "if the state had exercised its authority to require cleanup of those ponds previously, the catastrophic coal ash spill could have been prevented. the time to use this authority to require cleanup at other plants around the state is now, before another disaster occurs"" a shooting at a crowded tennessee mall has left one victim critically wounded. four people have been detained. meanwhile in idaho, state lawmakers have approved a measure that would allow concealed weapons on college campuses. if signed into law, i'd would become the seventh state to allow guns at a disco -- idaho would become the seventh state to allow guns at schools. a colorado prisoner has avoided the death penalty in a case that drew attention over the efforts of his victim's father to spare his life.

edward montour was facing execution in a new murder trial for the 2002 killing of prison guard eric autobee. but on thursday, montour entered a plea deal that will sentence him to life in prison, instead of to death. eric autobee's father, bob autobee, had sought to enter a victim's statement asking the jury not to impose the death penalty, saying he opposes capital punishment. you can go to our website democracynow.org for our interview with bob autobee from wednesday's broadcast. >> the annual conservative clinical action conference has kicked off in d.c.. in his opening speech, paul ryan suggested children who receive school lunches are not cared for by low income families. >> what they are offering people is a full stomach and empty soul. the american people want more than that. this reminds me of a story i

heard from eloise and dennis anderson. cap -- eloisethe anderson. she serves in the cabinet of my governor scott walker. she once met a young boy from a very poor family and everyday at school he would get a free lunch from a government program and he told eloise he did not want a free lunch. he wanted his own lunch, one in a brown paper bag like the other kids. he wanted one, he said, because he knew a kid with a brown paper bag had somebody who cared for him. >> and a former black panther, mumia abu-jamal has weighed in on the senate's rejection of debo adegbile, president obama's pick to head the justice department's civil rights division. adegbile's nomination was voted down after a confirmation fight that focused almost solely on his ties to abu-jamal's legal defense.

he was part of a team at the naacp legal defense fund that successfully argued the trial judge's jury instructions violated abu-jamal's rights in his conviction for killing a philadelphia police officer. in a recording from prison, abu-jamal sharply criticized the senate's vote. >> it is bitter irony that the man nominated for the nation's highest civil rights post was denied the civil rights of due process and the human right of self-defense and this is so simply because he did to do what defense lawyers are legally and conduct -- constitutionally required to do -- defd their clients. spat upon by was vile men, taken down by lies. >> critics haved the e senate's rejection of debo adegbile could set a dangerous precedent where legal nominees are judged based on who they've

defended on court. the lawmakers who voted in opposition are also being accused of racist double standards. chief justice john roberts was confirmed to the supreme court despite defending a florida mass murderer who killed eight people. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. >> and i am one among the the -- gonzalez. the pro-russia armenian -- i voted forvernment has russia. this comes as president obama and allies have unveiled a co-ordinated set of sanctions to punish russia for occupying crimea, in what some are calling the worst east-west crisis since the cold war. president obama called russian president vladimir putin thursday to urge him to seek a diplomatic solution to the crisis, emphasizing that russia's actions in crimea were a violation of ukrainian sovereignty. during a telephone conversation

between the two leaders, putin reportedly said ties between their two countries should not suffer because of disagreements over ukraine. wouldato has said they suspend operations with russia, including a joint mission to strain syria's chemical stockpile. obama said secretary of state john kerry will continue to hold talks with all relevant parties. axis morning, i signed an that putsorder sanctions on those responsible of violating the integrity the ukraine or stealing the assets of the ukrainian people. according to my guidance, the state department has also put in place restrictions on travel of certain individuals and officials. this continues to impose a cost on russia and those responsible for the situation.

it also gives us the flexibility to adjust our response going forward based on russia's actions. >> meanwhile, ukraine's former prime minister yulia tymoshenko has ruled out talks with russia, and urged europe to take tough action on crimea. speaking on thursday, she said the referendum is being held at "gunpoint". >> today, there are well armed russian troops in crimea. referendum can be at the gunpoint? who will guarantee the votes? who will guarantee the will of the people is not dictated by what russia says about a territory that is today under occupation. this referendum is a's legitimate and violates ukraine's constitution -- violates's ukraine constitution. >> that is ukraine's former

prime minister yulia tymoshenko speaking thursday. meanwhile, the ukrainian paralympic team is set to decide whether it is participating in the sochi winter paralympics, which open in the russian black sea resort later today. many foreign dignitaries have already boycotted the games. for more on the crisis unfolding in the region, we host a discussion. in london, we're joined by two guests. anton shekhovtsov is a ukrainian citizen who was in kiev and sevastapol in january. he is a researcher at the university college london, specializing in far right movements. with him is jonathan steele, former moscow correspondent for the guardian. he recently wrote a piece called, "the ukraine crisis: john kerry and nato must calm down and back off". he is the author of "eternal russia: yeltsin, gorbachev, and the mirage of democracy". here in new york, we are joined by keith gessen, editor at n plus one magazine. his latest co- authored editorial is called "ukraine, putin, and the west." he covered the 2010 ukraine

elections for the new yorker magazine. welcome all to democracy now! let's begin with debo adegbile --anton shekhovtsov, the referendum wanted to succeed from the ukraine. >> thank you for the invitation. i would agree with the former prime minister and president barack obama that this referendum is absolutely illegitimate for three reasons. first of all, it is against the ukrainian constitution to hold a referendum in the autonomous republic of crimea. second, it is not possible to hold free and fair referendum in this situation when crimea is now invaded by the russian troops and pro-russian separatists. , it is not possible to technicalerendum in

terms because the database has been blocked by the voters -- of the voters, so the authorities in crimea do not have access to the voter base. they can not fully compose lists of the voters, people that would take part in the referendum. this referendum will not be either canada, or and nativen union, people in the crimea, or there even before the russians and ukrainians settled, they will not recognize this referendum and this may provoke a dramatic pro-russianween the separatists and russian troops on one hand, and crimea and ukrainians on the other hand. some ethnic russians will also join this standoff on the side

of pro-ukrainian forces. keith, what about the issue of the referendum and you have a central government with prejudices and in question because there was a duly elected president ousted. >> that is certainly the russian case, that viktor yanukovych, say what you will about him, and there are a lot of bad things to say about him that are true, he was elected. the process of getting him out of office was a revolution. everybody has been calling it that. i think that is correct. a vote was held under excited circumstances, and the russians are refusing to acknowledge that was legitimate. department- state outvote patriotic overture

of office, but the russians are using this confusion and excitement to say things are in determined yet. so, we can do what we want. steele, what you think should be the response to this plan to vote? you are saying the west should cool out. >> i do not think the vote is terribly important, and it is not at all clear that even if the vote went ahead and the majority said they want to join russia, that putin would accept that. he said he does not want them to join russia. i think it is a bit of a sideshow. what is more important is happening in kiev, as what is more important is the representative nature of the government. it was a nonconstitutional coup, and there is evidence to say that was correct. it was kind of an insurrection.

you have also pointed out on democracy now that there was a lot of evidence that snipers came from the protest side rather than the government side. thing is to get a representative government in the ukraine that will not frighten people in the eastern areas in the south. literally, out of the 19 ministers in the government, only two come from the east. none come from the south. the government also initially started to say russia -- russian would not be allowed as an official language. they have not acted on that, but it sets a terrible psychological and political symbol. there are efforts in western ukraine to make illegal the party of the regions, the old party of victory on a coat which, which does represent a lot of people. -- viktor yanukovych,

which does represent a lot of people. the efforts should be to sort that out. >> we will break and then come back to this discussion. our guests in london are jonathan steele, anton citizensov, a ukrainian , and in new york, keith gessen. this is democracy now! back in a minute on ukraine. ♪ [music break]

>> "together we are many, we can not be defeated," by the ukrainian hip-hop group. this is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report.

i am amy goodman with juan gonzalez. our guests, jonathan steele, former moscow correspondent for the guardian. he is with us from london. anton shekhovtsov is a ukrainian citizen, at university college london, researching far-right movements. here in new york keith gessen an , editor at n plus one magazine. >> jonathan steele, you mentioned about this leaked phone call, during the protest that ousted the elected president and were obviously not protesters killed but police killed as well, and the leaked phone call has bolstered claims anti-government forces were behind sniper attacks on protesters in kiev last month. both sides of ukraine's political divide blamed the other when dozens of people were killed by gunfire in the weeks before the ouster of president viktor yanukovich. but in an intercepted phone call between estonia's foreign minister, urmas paet, and

european union policy chief catheron ashton, paet says the sniper fire came from the opposition. >> evidence shows that people killed by snipers on both sides, policemen and people in the streets, they were the same snipers killing people from both sides. photos andowed me she can say there is the same and in -- and writing, bullets, and it is disturbing that the new coalition -- they do not want to investigate what exactly happened, so there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers it was not a victory and -- or the new coalition viktor yanukovych, but somebody from the new coalition.

>> what about this issue? >> at the gate was a huge coalition in the street for several weeks. of course, there were a lot of ordinary people, one could call civilians, who were in favor of joining the eu, which viktor yanukovych refused to sign, but then there were professional demonstrators, people experienced in setting up equipment, water, food, and so on, and then there were people that were insurrectionists, who were armed, and some might even be called terrorists. i always thought it was quite possible that the snipers were coming from the opposition side because the first day when there was killing, out of 20 people dead, nine were police. not normal in these demonstrations when one side opens fire, it is usually the police, but nine of their own people died.

from the phone call you played, it seems that almost all of the snipers were from the opposition side, which is a terrible indictment of their behavior, and also of the form -- the , which isdia completely suppressed the phone call and the western governments that made no reference to it. to their credit, the new kiev say they will have an investigation, but i have not heard john kerry. yourton shekhovtsov response to that, and the call. >> i would not put too much emphasis on this call. catheronall, neither ashton,

nor the ukrainian minister have investigated. their views are their views. it is not based on evidence. there were rumors during the ukrainian revolution that there was veryrd force that much interested in escalation of the conflict, and maybe a representative or that third force was shooting at protesters and police. so, we must not exclude this possibility. shton and the estonian minister's views are their own, subjective, and not based on the investigation. >> keith gessen, i would like to crimeaut the issue of itself because it is at the center of the conflict and neither russia nor ukrainians

have historical roots in crimea. can you talk about the history of that region and how it became a majority russian-speaking area? back a fewy, going centuries, it was the tartar region. colonized by russia early in the 18th century. russia has been there for a fairly long time. then, it was transferred into ukraine in 1954. the borders.rew they never thought the soviet union would fall apart, so they did not care what went where, and now, of course, it has become a problematic area. it has been, since the beginning of the ukrainian independence, crimea has been the most restive, the most separatist --

the area that has given the country the most problems. >> who are the protesters overall question mark how would you characterize what is going on in the ukraine? >> there has been a lot of debate, especially on the left, about the presence of nationalists and ultra-right people in the protests. they are definitely there. they are in parliament. leftist activists from russia go and they tell stories about being been up. it has been, for a few years now, a tense situation. the trouble in ukraine is there is no left. it is not the resource italy. -- greece or italy. there is not a left movement the protests could express. if you are a young person who is oppositional, antigovernment, you will gravitate toward the right. there is no left.

the coalition of the protests was a coalition of liberals who want to be part of europe, who do not really want to have too much to do with russia, which has become an ugly, authoritative regime, and these ultra-right, altra nationalists. it was a coalition that we also saw in the russian protest a couple of years ago against putin, the same kind of coalition of the right wing and liberals. >> jonathan steele, i would like to ask you about the role of the united states and the european union in this conflict. you have been urging the u.s. to back off in some of your writings. could you speak about that role, the united states role? back to the expansion of nato after the fall of the soviet union, which a lot of people -- foreign russian

ambassadors west of the u.s., like people in britain who served in this golf -- moscow realize would be a damaging move. there was an argument over whether or not to expand nato, and the hawks won in the clinton andnistration, so poland hungary came in, and then came the baltic states, and there was always the idea that they could extend further into georgia and ukraine. ukraine is so strategically important to russia, one can understand why they feel angry and upset. viktoreement that yanukovych refused to sign would have possibly been a backdoor toward nato membership because it does say that ukraine would be part of the common security of the eu,-policy which was linked to nato as well. i could understand why the russians are very unhappy about

that. they like viktor yanukovych because he was the first election who in the campaign said we would not join nato and he was elected partly on that basis because all opinion shows the majority of ukrainians are against nato membership. days, there has been overreaction because they should recognize that this is a very v andus government in kie whether or not it is constitutional or not can be arguable, but is not popular to the east, the russian-speaking part of the country in the east and the south. he should try to get a more democratic government, but instead john kerry ignores that when he has been pressing to recognize the legitimacy of the government in the ukraine. you should be a matter for discussion and negotiation, not something they say to the

russians basically you have to accept this government. >> monday, former u.s. ambassador to the united nations john bolton appeared on fox news. he said putin is trying to expand russia's territory in the region. >> he gave us notions of his intentions when he said the breakup of the soviet union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century, and it is clear he wants to establish russian hum genet he. ukraine is the biggest prize. the opposite -- occupation of crimea is a step in the direction. it shows how we will negotiate with the interim government, with his foot on ukraine's neck. jonathan steele, do you think it is a fair assessment, and then i will get anton shekhovtsov's

response. >> i think that is a gross overreaction and an exaggeration. putin is trying to set up a --on and he has kept extend has expand showing interest in that, and he wants to ukraine to join, but the ukraine is divided by people in the east and the western side. it is a very divided country. you have to have, perhaps, eventually a federation to prevent it from breaking apart, but in the meantime, a proper national government of unity, and i see no sense that this crisis has been created by and not that he is on a march. we heard this during the soviet riod. you have to look at the facts, and not put this into ideological matrix.

would youhekhovtsov, agree? >> no, i do not agree with mr. steele. first of all, this is an interim government, the first post -revolutionary government, and it is very important to mayrstand that in ukrainians will have presidential elections and shortly after that, perhaps in the autumn, the ukrainians will have early parliamentary elections in order to renew the legitimacy of the power relations in ukraine. as for vladimir putin and his expansionist ideas, they are very clear that putin is not going to stop was occupying crimea. he will go further. putin himself might be a strategist or still holding those kgb views, but the

and his behind putin advisers is eurasianism which is about totally restoring the soviet union in its former borders and going beyond that. history,ow russian contemporary russian politics, you will see that his advisers, they are urging him to go westward, and not only defend russian speaking population in the crimea -- and i am myself, ethnic russian. i am russian hyphens creaking. -- russian-speaking. i had to learn ukrainian. he will try to defend russian speaking in the baltics, and there are around a million living in lithuania, estonia,

and latvia, and he could go further. putin is destroying the security system of post-war europe. is challenging the west and is trying to undermine attempts at nuclear disarmament because in 1994 ukraine voluntarily got rid largestorld's third stock of nuclear weapons, and ukraine was promised territorial integrity and sovereignty by russia, the u.s., and the u.k., and now russia violated that agreement, then the situation in the world -- if the west fails to protect ukraine and protect its territorial integrity, a nuclear weapon, a nuclear bomb will be the only tool and instrument for protecting territorial integrity and sovereignty in the world a new

nuclear arms race will comment on that will be a horrible development. i will put the whole world in danger. >> i want to raise the issue of the european union's role. keith gessen, maybe you can respond to this. european looted -- leaders agreed to suspend talks. they said they could withdraw from the summit if russia does not back down. >> they will vote on additional measures. by the russianps federation to destabilize the situation in the ukraine would lead to severe and far-reaching consequences for relations between the european union and member states on one hand on the other hand.

that would include a broad range of economic areas. >> that was european council president herman van rompuy told . the reality is europe is very reliant on russia for much of its natural gas and other resources. could you talk about the gamble between the european union and russia as well? >> i would also say that gas goes through ukraine. one of the largest companies in ukraine takes care of the pipeline that takes the gas from europe into russia. so, everybody is tied together is -- in these knots that will be difficult to on time. one of the things that gets lost in the discussion of the standoff between russia and the eu and the u.s. and russia is

ukraine. ukraine is being turned into a battleground for the aspirations on the one hand of the eu, and on the other hand of russia. this is not good for ukraine. thisof the problem is process started in 2004 with the orange revolution, which brought a strongesidency nationalist, who is also very anti-russian. he had an anti-russian presidency. relations between the countries were very bad and part of the reason viktor yanukovych was legitimately elected in 2010 was people were very tired of the standoff with russia. it was not good for the ukraine. a lot of people have family ties to russia and economically, culturally, and historically, ukraine is tied to russia. however, the russian regime is terrible. it is really awful.

it is less democratic by a pretty wide margin than the ukrainian regime. so, you have the situation where ally and anatural natural neighbor, and unfortunately it is russia. >> just to wrap up, anton shekhovtsov, and then jonathan steele, what do you think needs to happen now? support all ofly the efforts that the u.s., under the leadership of president barack obama and the eu are doing right now. nobody wants a war. i think the west should act to -- try all of the diplomatic measures possible, including, of course, political, economic, military,

but without military conflict and introduce sanctions like investigations about money laundering in the .est by the russian oligarchs the more diplomatic measures introduced, the better. i think that russia, it is already suffering economically -- i do not think that people in russia, russian citizens will be really interested in a situation where their economy declines. >> jonathan steele, your final comment. agreementas to be between the west and moscow on this. i think they should try to find a common economic package in which both sides contribute.

i think he will back off on primary and -- crimea if he feels he has reassurance that there will be no threat of joining the eurasian union or the eu, for the time being, that that is put on ice, and the character of the government in to reassurerged people in the southern ukraine they will not be humiliated in the future. way out.e is the >> thank you, jonathan steele, a , antoncorrespondent shekhovtsov and keith gessen. when we come back, we go south to venezuela. two protesters killed overnight. who were the protesters, what is happening there? stay with us. ♪ [music break]

some."ill give you a -- a song." this is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. with juanodman gonzalez. >> we turn now to venezuela, which this week marked the one-year anniversary of the death of longtime president hugo chávez. this comes as his successor, nicolas maduro, has faced a month of violent demonstrations. the protests began last month in

the city of san cristobal, in western tachira state, near the columbia border, and then spread to the capital, caracas, where thousands of opposition protesters have held regular marches, often clashing with police. at least 20 people have been killed since the protests began. overnight, a soldier and a motorcyclist died sparked by the opposition barricading history. this is the commander of the venezuelan national guard. continue to follow orders from the commander-in-chief. -- keepere to came order and guard public order. give the citizen security that they need and if it is necessary to lay down our lives, we will do so. enough with these fascist groups, with the violence that is unjustly hurting the people. >> a group of un-appointed human rights experts has asked venezuela about allegations of abuse against the opposition, citing reports that some detainees had been beaten and tortured.

president maduro has bristled at outside attempts to intervene in the unrest. he announced thursday he was breaking off diplomatic and commercial ties with panama after it called for the organization of american states to convene and discuss the protests. >> be quiet, sir, and do not meddle with somebody that did not call you. venezuela has not solicited a debate within the organization of american states about their internal situation. we have not solicited their intervention in the -- in venezuela. we would be crazy to do that. >> meanwhile, on tuesday the us house of representatives passed a resolution that expressed support for democracy in venezuela. the measure passed by a vote 393 to one. it was proposed by republican congresswoman of florida, ileana ros-lehtinen. >> the face of a determined autocrat who disregards expectations of right conduct and who is willing to use

violence to impose his will on free citizens well, mr. speaker, words are just not nearly enough. we must act, and we must act now. we must support those who are pleading for respect for democratic principles, for human rights in venezuela. now onost a debate right the situation in venezuela. joining us from caracas is margarita lopez maya, a venezuelan historian and political analyst. she is a professor with the center for development studies at the central university of venezuela. and in berkeley, roberto lovato is a writer with new american media who recently returned from reporting in caracas. his latest piece for al jazeera is, "venezuela's opposition is united against maduro, but internally divided." welcome both of you to democracy now! let's begin with roberto, just .oming back from venezuela

>> i found a people's movement that is pretty much act -- absent. you do not hear voices, and you do not see the voices, you do not feel them because your media is not telling you about what is happening to the poor. i went and i interviewed people areas,erent protest including one of the wealthiest areas in all of latin america, and in all of my years at withting and engaging revolutionary and oppositional movements, i have never seen a nikest movement, so many tennis shoes, fashion jeans, and dogs whose collars cost more salary.eek's you have a venezuelan writer that is deeply divided, that has

elections the 19 last since 1995. they lost in the most recent municipal elections. it is a movement in search of not money, because the u.s., aig, and the national endowment for democracy have given them hundreds of millions of dollars, including student groups vas.uding the j so, you have an opposition that andn search of a new way has gone the violent route, the radical route that has included killing people like somebody you

have not heard about in your rosas, avis 29-year-old motorcyclist that was beheaded by barbed wire that these peaceful students and everybody is telling you about put up on the advice of a toeral who tweeted a message basically hurt, killed, and maim people on motorcycles, and they succeeded in that on more than one case. there was a woman, a mother who died like that. try to find the stories in your mainstream media. you will not pay the media just yesterday reported that two people -- what you mentioned, they were not protesters. they were innocent people killed by peaceful protesters again prettyght in another upwardly mobile area. so, what is happening is a right

wing that is divided because the oligarchs, many of them, are actually in a crease -- he's process -- peace process with m aduro. , talkgarita lopez maya about these issues that roberto ofato, and your perspective who the protesters are and whether the opposition is as divided as roberto is claiming. crexendo, -- >> hello. the protest has been a full month now, and it did start in tachira. of we have been going through a heavy economic crisis, but in

the state it is worse because being on the border with colombia, it has suffered from militarization, security, smuggling, drug trafficking, you name it, they have it. so, in the beginning of february, there was a student protest because one of the girls was robbed and about to be raped , and they started a protest. they were severely repressed. two boys went to jail. they were thrown into jail. harassed, anden, they kept on protesting, and the response of the government was this is some kind of a plot. this sparked the whole protest that has been going on in venezuela. it began on february 4. today, we are in march, and it

does not stop. it has taken most of the big only in the country, not caracas -- big and middle cities have been having these protests. the leaders have been the student movement. they called for a big concentration on february 12. the concentration was joined by civil society. it was joined by some groups of the opposition. the response was oppression. inre were two protest venezuela coming from what we call the political police, the thelligence service, videos, the photos are there. the national guard has been accused. arrested two or three.

then you have another phenomenon that is very severe and concerning, that the armed paramilitary groups that joined guard ande national the intelligence service in order to repress civil protests in the streets. -- it issts happen true, it happened in the municipalities of the middle and upper classes. ?hy is this so among other reasons, because societya very polarized . in the municipalities where the lower classes live, it is mainly in control of the government. permits forgive

protests in those with disabilities. they do not allow it. they bring in not only the national guard -- this is a country that has been during the government, and also because there are territories in the cities controlled by these armed groups, groups that have been armed by the government and controlled territory in the poor sector is. time have very little left. i just want to ask roberto see the protests going? >> i see them going in the way of desperation and failure at the end of the day. you do not have the popular support. you did not hear anything except great excuses of why poor people, the black majority, the are descendent majority

participating. you cannot overthrow government in venezuela or anywhere else in latin america unless you have the poor, then these protests of thene the way opposite of most of latin america, against u.s. policy. these protesters get hundreds of millions of dollars from u.s. policy. you will have more u.s. and its allies and the oligarchs trying to destabilize illegitimately elected government and failing, probably, only -- probably again. , margaritalovato lopez maya, thank you for being with us. that does it for our broadcast. venezuela.

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