04/11/14 04/11/14 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] >> from pacifica, this is democracy now! you thought we would go away, but investment is here to stay. >> momentum is growing and the movement to divest from fossil fuel companies and south african archbishop is meant to two calls for an anti-apartheid-style boycott. nearly 100 harvard university professors signed a letter urging their school to stop

using its $32 billion endowment to invest in firms fueling, change. then, years of living dangerously. >> everybody thinks climate change is about polar bears and melting glaciers. i think it is a big mistake. this is 100% of people's story. >> film maker james cameron and other hollywood superstars like don cheadle, matt damon, and harrison ford have collaborated on a new series looking at the devastating impact of climate change around the world. finally, imagine living in a socialist usa. >> people are completely ignorant about what socialism really is. isy are just told that it evil, that it is anti-democratic. and i thought, we really need to tell them the truth. >> we will speak with editors frances goldin and michael smith. all of that and more coming up.

this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. a secret senate intelligence committee report on the cia's torture program questions the programs underlying legal framework and accuses the agency of impeding its overseers of manipulating the media. according to the reports conclusions attained by mcclatchy, the cia issued incorrect claims about how many tople it held and subjected so-called enhanced interrogation techniques. inaccurately characterize the effectiveness of the techniques, actively avoided or impeded oversight by congress, the justice department, and its own inspector general, and ignored internal critiques. it manipulated the media by coordinating the release of classified information am a which inaccurately pretrade the effectiveness of the agencies enhanced interrogation techniques. the senate intelligence committee has voted to

declassify the conclusions and other sections of the report, but not before there reviewed by the cia. nations security council has approved the deployment of the 12,000-member peacekeeping force to the central african republic. violence there between christians and muslims has sparked fears of genocide. tauzin's have been killed and hundreds of thousands displaced in months of fighting. kirsten militias are carrying out revenge killings following rebelsby muslim seleka who seized power in up to last march. on thursday, the country's foreign minister praised the un's resolution 1013. -- to intervene. >> as i mentioned in my speech, it is not up to the international community to solve our problems. but they create the necessary framework were all the cities in

the south african republic will sit, discuss, talk to each other in order to find a lasting solution for the crisis. violence latest tuesday, at least 30 people were killed when a christian militia town in aebel held rural area north of the capital. andions between the u.s. russia over ukraine are continuing to rise. nato has released a satellite images showing russian fighter jets and tanks dear the ukrainian border, where it says as many as 40,000 russian troops have mass. has warned itile, could cut off natural gas to supplies -- and supplies to ukraine if the government does not pay its debt. "for senate panel thursday, assistant secretary of state victoria nuland said the u.s. has launched a truth telling campaign on ukraine. >> one cannot match the kind of money and effort in a close society that rush is putting

into this, but we can certainly help our friends and partners debunk lies, get the straight story out. we have redirected a great amount of public diplomacy funds to mounting our own truth telling campaign. was caught onland tape earlier this year favoring certain officials to replace grainy president viktor yanukovych, before he was ousted in a coup. her apparent favorite is now interim prime minister. he is in yanukovych his hometown today in a bid to ease tensions with pro-russian demonstrators who have occupied a government building. totaiwan, police have moved expel protesters who have been occupying parliament for more than three weeks in opposition to a new trade pact with china. hundreds of protesters left on thursday after the head of parliament agreed to keep the man's. but hundreds more had remained overnight. movement,he sunflower

and caring sunflowers as a symbol of hope, the students enter parliament on march 18 two oppose the trade deal, which they say would benefit wealthy corporations while threatening democracy in taiwan. despite space of violence and police attempts to oust them, they remained in place until this week. they now say they will take their movement to the broader society. the national security agency has refused to give german chancellor angela merkel access to her nsa file or answer questions from germany about u.s. surveillance. that information was revealed when the german parliament member queried the government about steps it had taken after reports the nsa spied on her phone calls. the nsa has reportedly instituted a blanket policy of withholding data from people who want to know if the nsa has spied on them. president obama's health and human services secretary who oversawelius, the disastrous rollout of the

affordable care act, is resigning after a five-year tenure. she comes under intense criticism following the technical problems that plagued the launch of the health care law. on thursday, she said about 7.5 million people have now signed up for insurance through the new private marketplaces will stop today obama's nominating sylvia mathews burwell, director of the office of management and budget, to replace sebelius. house republicans are continuing their battle against lois lerner, the irs official at the center of the agency's alleged targeting a political groups. and i are us unit used keywords to single out certain political groups, most of which were right wing. on thursday, a house committee voted to hold learner in contempt for refusing to testify at two panel hearings. a day earlier, another house panel voted to ask the justice department to consider criminal charges against learner. tosident obama paid tribute

the civil rights movement and president lyndon johnson thursday during an event at the johnson presidential library in austin, texas. obama hailed the passage of social programs like medicare as well as the voting rights act of 1965, which was gutted last year by the supreme court. the event honored the 50th anniversary of johnson signing the civil rights act on july 2, 1964. >> i reject such cynicism because i have lived out a promise of lbj's efforts. because michelle has lived out the legacy of those efforts. because my daughters have lived out the legacy of those efforts. because i and millions of my generation were in a position to take the baton that he handed to us. >> outside the library, immigrant tried activist chained themselves to a statute martin luther king, junior to protest obamaama registrations -- administration's record

deportation of immigrants, two thirds of whom have committed minor infractions like traffic violations or had no criminal record at all. the justice department has issued a report on what it called systemic deficiencies pervading the albuquerque police department, where officers have shot and killed at least 23 people since 2010. most recently, the department faced scrutiny for the killing of james boyd, a homeless man who appeared to be surrendering before police opened fire. the report halls for 44 changes to training and policies, including better procedures for handling the mentally ill. the findings were outlined by jocelyn samuels, acting assistant attorney general for the department of justice's civil rights division. looked atestigation officer involved shootings that resulted in fatalities between 2009 and 2012, and found a majority of them were unreasonable and violated the fourth amendment of the united states constitution. we found that officers used

deadly force against people who did not pose an immediate threat of death or serious harm to the officers or to others, and against people who posed a threat only to themselves. in fact, we found sometimes it was the conduct of the officers themselves that heightened the danger and escalated the need to use force. >> the report also details abuses involving gazers, or stun guns, noting police once taste a 75-year-old man who refused to leave the bus station. taste and repeatedly kicking a y disabled man who was unable to talk, taste a 16-year-old boy who refused to lie on a floor covered in broken glass, and taste a man who had poured gasoline on himself am thereby, setting himself on fire. twoeneral motors has placed engineers on paid leave amidst a widening scandal over an ignition switch defect linked to at least 13 of potentially hundreds of deaths.

gm also added another repair to its recall of 2.6 million cars with faulty ignition switches. the cars will also require new ignition lock cylinders due to a flaw allowing keys to be removed while engines are still running. gm says it has received several hundred complaints about he's coming out of admissions. a federal judge has accepted a guilty plea from the hedge fund sac capital, ceiling a $1.2 billion criminal settlement for insider trading. in total, the firm has agreed to pay $1.8 billion to settle civil and criminal probes, marking what the justice department called the largest insider trading settlement in history. eight former sa seemed place have been convicted or pled guilty to criminal charges, but that list does not include founder and ceo stephen cohen who is not been criminally charged. his firm, renamed, will now oversee his $9 billion personal fortune.

glenn greenwald and laura poitras, the two journalists who broke the story about edward snowden's leaks on nsa surveillance, are returning to the united states today for the first time since the reports were released. they are attending a ceremony in new york to receive the george polk award for national security reporting. greenwald told the huffington post he wants to return because -- partner, david miranda, was detained for nine hours at london's heathrow airport last year under an anti-terrorism law. laura poitras, an award-winning filmmaker reports on u.s. wars and surveillance, has been detained dozens of times in the past when reentering the united states. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez.

>> welcome to all our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. momentum is growing in the movement to divest from fossil fuel companies. on thursday, south african archbishop desmond to to voiced his support for an anti-apartheid style boycott and divestment campaign against the industry for its role in driving climate change. in an article published in the guardian, tutu wrote -- he went on to write -- last year, desmond tutu appeared in the video back in a video backing the fossil fueled investment campaign. >> the divestment movement

played a key role in helping liberate south africa. the corporations -- even when they weren't swayed by morality. climate change is a deeply moral issue, too, of course. in africa, we see the dreadful suffering from rising food prices, drought, from floods, even though they've done nothing to cause the situation. togethern, we can join as a world and put pressure where it counts. >> and other news, nearly 100 members of the faculty at harvard university released an open letter thursday calling on the ivy league school to sell off its interest in oil, gas, and coal companies. harvard has the largest university endowment in the country, worth over $32 billion.

the harvard faculty letter was published just three days after the university's president rejected earlier calls to divest from fossil fuel firms. instead he announced the school would become a signatory to the united nations supported principles for responsible investment. >> in the letter, the professors write -- to talk more about the divestment movement, we're joined by two guests. anderson is professor of chemistry and earth and planetary sciences at harvard university.

he is one of the signatories to the letter urging harvard to divest from the possibility the street. he has done groundbreaking work exposing the link between climate change and ozone loss. and with us in washington, d.c., jamie henn, cofounder of 350.org. rivette's or talk about why you professors letter -- anderson, talk about why you signed this letter and what it says. >> i signed the letter because the fossil fuel question is unique in many ways. first, the combustion of fossil fuels has and will continue to bring serious and you reversible change to the structure of the earth's climate. second, the fossil fuel industry has and will continue to provide very significant misinformation about this problem to the general public. the third issue revolves around leadership that i believe all universities should execute, and

that was best captured, really, when divesting from the tobacco industry and harvard responded similarly to the apartheid question. in the case of climate change and its relation to energy, this is the most serious problem facing this and subsequent generations. so i believe it is crucially important for universities to step forward and exhibit leadership. because if they don't, who will? the government is now crippled by both misinformation and special interests, and in many regards, the business industry should not necessarily be expected -- although we would hope they would -- to exhibit leadership in this matter. anderson, can you talk about some of the research that you have done, especially in terms of the issue of water vapor in the stratosphere and its impact on climate change?

research earlyy on addressed the question of ozone loss. we built instruments that flew over the antarctic that established the cause for the antarctic hole or dramatic loss of ozone over the antarctic. similarly, we did research over the arctic and demonstrated the same chemistry is occurring except there was a fundamental difference. and that is, because the arctic stratosphere is a little warmer than the antarctic i'm a we discovered it was not these ice crystals that were executing a key chemical reactions converting nonreactive chlorine to the free radical form, but rather simple, ubiquitous water sulfate aerosols. --the time, this was in 2001 2002, we saw this as an

academically interesting point that this chemistry was sensitive not just to temperature, but to water. 2008-2009, we discovered severe storms over the united states or even moderate storms were injecting water deep into the stratosphere over the u.s. in the summer. and this would instigate exactly the same chemistry that is throwing ozone over the antarctic in the winter, except this is over the united states and middle attitudes in the summer. this is an example, and just one example of potentially serious ratifications from these irreversible changes to the climate structure. i would like to emphasize that this question is not a question of global warming. of the question timescale for irreversible change and this link between climate and ozone is one of those examples. >> in a letter last october,

harvard president drew faust wrote -- she wrote -- your response to that, professor anderson? think there are always entanglements involved in any position, for any organization or any structure. in large measure, the universities have the greatest independence, the greatest opportunity for leadership, and the greatest opportunity for establishing the ethics for future generations. and i think all of those points she makes are certainly valid, but i think the issue of leadership and the fundamental

interests of this and coming generations trumps those points. , notnk the universitys just harvard, but those across the united states, oh a very significant that to their graduates -- owe a very significant debt to their graduates. research is increasingly showing that students are graduating 2 million a year universities without the knowledge of knowing how to vote. so this whole dialogue has to come alive, has to inject itself fundamentally into the curriculum. and all of us need to understand the phenomenal points behind climate and behind the relationship between climate and energy. the think those are dominant factors that the university must step up and take roof -- responsible before.

>> i want to bring in jamie henn , the cofounder of 350.org. what about the issue of how the debate is spreading the universities around the country of divestment from the fossil fuel industry, and also could you talk about the portions of such an action at harvard specifically, what kind of signal that would send to the academic community across the nation? >> it is good to be with you guys. it has been amazing to watch the divestment movement spread. universities, pension funds, hospitals, you name it, not just in the u.s., but around the world we have campaigners hard at work russian banks to stop financing coal, across europe and the u.k. where the quakers have already divested and the pressure is coming on the church of england. harvard is an iconic institution in this fight. likeg the faculty come out

this so strongly i think is a real strong of momentum that things are beginning to escalate on campus, that we are finding a foothold with the administrations across the country. students of washington university in st. louis are them a sit-in to pressure to cut ties with the world's largest coal company. the debate is beginning to make an impact. having the voices of incredible leaders like archbishop desmond tutu only adds to the momentum as we get into the spring. >> some of the institutions have artie taken this step? >> there have been nine colleges that have divested from east to west, san francisco state liberal arts small institutions on the east coast. about 20 cities have made a commitment from san francisco, seattle, the smaller towns across the country. a large group of 17 foundations representing about $1.8 billion have already divested.

people have taken up this cause from all sorts of different denominations, taking action. i believe this weekend we will get another good announcement about a well-known college divesting as well. things are picking up speed. we are beginning to see this make an impact. >> professor anderson, talk about the endowment of harvard university, it's significance, and what would disinvest in from the oil industry look like? >> i think it is the principle behind this. and that is the issue of climate impact that is engendered by the combustion of fossil fuel and the opportunity to entirely wean our energy structure off fossil fuels. the united states is profoundly endowed with renewable energy -- wind, solar, hydro, geothermal.

it opens a pathway that the students, and they take courses, course, thend, of case committee made that entanglement of fossil fuel companies within the endowment structures is a very complicated issue. nobody is questioning that. in fact, the energy industry is a $6 trillion to a twin dollar enterprise. it has its roots and fingers in every single aspect. a clean severance is not something that is easy to do. at this is a very important statement on the contribution of universities to the future of this country. i teach an introductory course that couples the principles of chemistry and physics to the larger global context of climate energy, it energy consequences, and its technology. when the students simply see the

facts, their immediate question is, well, what can i do about this? one of the things they can do is push the university to divest. it is a very important thing you for exhibiting what they can do at age 18 and 19. it is a really important leadership issue, and a really important venue through which students can actually begin an activist contribution to their own future and to the country's long-term welfare. >> jamie henn, is there any sense on your part of the reaction of the fossil fuel industry to the growth of this degree they may be panicked or worried about it? >> i think it is beginning to have an impact. the american petroleum institute last year came out the study trying to show that universities would be really hard hit endowment-wise if they divested from the oil industry in particular. we had some analysts go back and discover they had just cherry

pick the data from a very short period when the oil industry was doing well. but if you extended it back, the university actually would have made more money. this is making an impact. i think the area where it is beginning to resonate is actually in the financial community. of based in new york most the time. it is amazing to see how discussion about divestment and the threat of a carbon bubble is beginning to spread on wall street. we're hearing is that financial conferences with big-time investors. this is a very powerful idea that we cannot continue to invest in these companies if we're going to address climate change and a serious way. in fact, these companies might be seriously overvalued because they're saying they can burn fossil till reserves which we simply cannot burn if we are going to address climate change. the divestment is having a profound impact in the financial community where we really do

need to see a massive change in the flow of capital in order to take on this crisis. >> we want to thank you both for being with us, jamie henn, cofounder of 350.org, and james anderson, fs or of chemistry and earth and planetary sciences at harvard in adversity. he is one of the signatories to the letter urging harvard to divest from the fossil fuel industry. when we come back, a new tv series is being launched. years of living dangerously. we will talk to one of the people involved. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. >> we turn now to a new showtime series where renowned actress battled torrential rainfall, raging wildfires, and prolonged droughts. this series is called "years of living dangerously" and it has all the drama and suspense of

the holy woodblock buster. in one as was -- one episode, or send for travels to indonesia to investigate the palm oil industry and its impact on greenhouse gases through deforestation. don cheadle visits plainview, texas after huge need packing plant closes down because of a drought. will schwarzenegger joins an elite team of wildland firefighters as they battle infernos. >> the series tackles fact, not fiction. it tells the stories of real people from across the planet affected by climate change. although with luminaries such as matt damon, james cameron, ann jerry weintraub have teamed up with leading climate scientists like dr. heidi cullen, joe romm, and jim hansen to bring the story of climate change to live for those yet to fill its impacts. his is a clip from the trailer of "years of living dangerously." >> everybody thinks climate change is about melting glaciers and polar bears. i think it is a big mistake. this is 100% of people story.

rising andthe water we went under. i knew i lost her immediately. >> i don't thinks kerry is the right word. dangerous, definitely. >> putting together the ultimate cast. they're going to be the correspondence. no more wildfire season. we have fires all year round. trucks this is unbelievable. >> we used to have seasons, now we don't. >> this is a lake? >> this abstract idea that the oceans are rising as the next generation's problem. >> is not a political issue, but a moral issue. >> a thermometer is not republican or democrat. >> what am i going to see in the next 50 years? >> there are going to be more

storms and they're going to be worse. >> what have you done? >> do think it makes sense to just give up? >> i don't think the people are going to give up. >> you don't want to be on the side that says i had a chance and i didn't do anything. >> there's is an urgent need to change things or it's all going to be gone. >> people need to help make it right. >> power together! >> if you think there's something to be done, then let's do it. this is the biggest story of our time. clip from the trailer "years of living dangerously." it airs on showtime starting and april 13 at 10:00 p.m. the first episode of the series is available free online. for more, we're joined by joe romm, founding editor of climate

progress. welcome to democracy now! talk about the series inception, working with james cameron, what you're doing with this. inwell, a few years ago 2010, i had the chance to spend some time with cameron. he was interested -- he is a very knowledgeable guy, deeply interested in the oceans and the environment. he wanted to get more involved in climate change and communications. one of the ideas that came out of that was for a tv series. one of those great coincidences, about three months later, two alsoinutes" producers independent we came up with this idea for doing a documentary on climate change. they had interviewed me and they called me and i said, let's work on this idea. you've got to meet james cameron.

ultimately, we were able to arrange that meeting. cameron was very excited. he sign on immediately. jerry weintraub had already been on board. from there come a -- from there, i won't say was easy to get this on tv, because as the epa administrator said in a panel after one screening, there is no other show on the air on climate change. that fact alone tells you that a lot of people have turned down for this. we had a great team. i can tell you the "60 minutes" producers behind us have 18 emmys between them. as cameron said in the clip that you showed, this is visually compelling human drama. i think it is unlike anything anybody has ever seen before. i think if you like high quality television -- i'm talking about not just "60 minutes," but "

,"king bad" or "the sopranos the documentary sense, that is what we are doing, showing that television is the place to tell thesestories because stories are not just great stories. these will become everybody's stories if we don't act on climate change soon. that is why there's universal appeal to this show. >> the process of recruiting so many hollywood luminaries and well-known figures to get involved in the function almost as correspondence to the series, could you talk about that process? >> absolutely. i think sometimes we associate celebrities with these causes, but i could do it -- first of all, we wanted to reach out to

celebrities who already were very knowledgeable and committed to this cause. a classic example is harrison ford. obviously, he is known as a screen legend, a very hard charging hero. but for two decades he has been on the board of conservation international. he is very passionate about conservation and climate change. in the first episode and second episode, you see him learning more about climate change. he actually starts the show often episode one in a jet plane . he takes over the jet plane. his is a jet plane that nasa has converted for military purposes to monitoring greenhouse gases. he goes from there to learn from scientists that deforestation is one of the big sources of heat trapping gases. isgoes to indonesia where he

told this is one of the worst situations. it is becomes -- unscripted. he is learning. he becomes engaged and ultimately becomes outraged as what is happening. in the end of episode one, which is available on youtube for free, he says, when he sees the deforestation, which you will be able to see and really gorgeous, gorgeous video. he sees what has happened. he is set to meet the minister of forced renie says, i can't wait to meet the minister of forced three. -- foresttry. one of the reasons we have celebrities involved, they can get access. harrison ford is able to meet with the head of one of the largest companies doing deforestation and meet with the minister of forestry and the president of indonesia. why the second episode, he is actually able to get them --

publicly announce they're going to change some of their policies. besides just being a very compelling figure, as harrison is. let me make one more point. i have seen this on the big screen now in a couple of screenings. movie screens. if you see this on the big screen or a big tv set, you will think this was a movie. you will not think, this is just some made-for-tv thing. the cinematography, high definition is just spectacular. i think people will be blown away. >> at scottrade clip from the first episode in the series, "years of living into slee dangerously." wheezed owned farmland in

syria. -- we used to own farmland in syria. the rains were very good. the land was well watered. then suddenly, the drought occurs. the land became like a desert.

>> they took you away for two months? >> yes, they took as a way for two months. >> what are your plans now? you went to continue the revolution? that was a pulitzer prize winning reporter thomas friedman

investigating how drought contributes to the civil war in syria. joe romm, take it from there. that i don't want to leave the impression that we're only dealing with celebrities. we have some world-class journalist like leslie stahl, bittman, andmark tom friedman. is justpening episode this gripping segment where we are trying to tell a story that i don't think many people know, which is that dryer to the civil war in syria -- prior to the civil in syria, there was one of the worst droughts of all time in syria. the science, the scientific literature and the scientist we spoke to said that climate change daily played a role in making this drought worse and there's going to be a lot worse

in the future if we don't act soon. tom is like one of the only guys who would actually go to syria. he crossed the turkish border into syria during the civil war, place of utter chaos, to get to the heart of the story, to actually talk to some people in the rebel camps who used to be farmers will stop more than one million farmers were driven off their land by this drought. it isn't just the drought. the room multiple factors causing this. -- there were multiple factors causing this. you have the combination of a brutal dictatorship which just did not care about what this drought was doing to its citizens and then this brutal four-year drought. the two of them together were just the tinder box. the phraseis the fre

that is used. yes, rice explains that, climate change is not by any means the sole cause of conflict, it can be one of the contending factors. i think people will be quite surprised -- the point being of the show, we clearly show climate change is already affecting americans. and this notion that climate change is some sort of distant threat, i think that should be completely dispelled. the latest governmental panel on climate change report last week made clear that climate change is hitting every part of the world, every continent, and we're not doing a very good job of dealing with it. so we talk about the drought in texas in the third episode. we talked about the storm superstorm sandy. even when climate change is affecting people far away like

in syria, it affects us in america. there is no escape. we are all tied together here. it doesn't matter what your politics is. that is another point i want to make. >> we only have a few seconds left in the segment. could you talk about why you don't have a segment on the xl pipeline? >> sure. work,y these tv series you have to get episodes done and in the can and headed off to showtime a couple months in advance. the president had said, as you may know, he said a month or two ago he was going to make the decision in a couple months. we were having to do these episodes, and knowing that would be broadcast -- they will be

broadcast on showtime sunday night at 10:00 and then there are nine total episodes. it will go from mid april to early june. the president may well make a decision in that timeframe, and we would have already finished some episode that would already kind of the irrelevant or out of date. that is just a happenstance of the way the production goes, not that we don't consider it important issue. there are so many stories that we cannot tell them all. we very much hope the will be a second season the people watching democracy now! june in, then if there's a second season we can cover many more stories. scienceomm, chief advisor to "years of living dangerously," and founding editor of climate progress. and we come back, new book is out called, "socialism usa." we will speak with the editors of the series. stay with us.

♪ [music break]

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. weekend today show looking at a new book titled, "imagine living in a socialist usa." it is co-edited by the legendary book agent frances goldin was work in the publishing for over six decades. she turns 90 years old in may. she is said just long had two goals left in life, one was to help free mumia abu jamal and the other was to publish a book about socialism in the united states. >> frances goldin is still

working to free mumia abu-jamal. her book was recently published. it features essays by angela davis, michael moore, rick wolf, and our own juan gonzalez. she joins us with one of her coeditors, michael smith, a new york city attorney, and board member of the center for constitutional rights. we welcome you both to democracy now! hasces, tell us why this been an aspiration of yours, to publish a book on socialism. have been pretty depressed about the route our country is taking. it was shocking to me after all the years of struggle and the games -- gains we have made with regards to people voting, women's rights to an abortion if they wanted, all of these hard-won gains being destroyed by the right, which they have

decided that democrats are not going to vote for it so the way they're fixing it is to prevent people from voting. there are many, many states that have laws passed that make it very hard -- they are stopping early voting, not allowing weekend voting. you have to bring your right arm and take a quart of blood in order to cast a ballot. this is outrageous. hell in anning to handbasket. we were moving toward fascism. that scared the hell out of me. the other reason was, the ignorance of the general population as to what socialism really is. they did not have a clue. of course the media made sure they did not have a clue. i thought it was important in

plain english -- and for that i credit our editor who did a wonderful job of making all of these theories into plain english so that students, high school students, college students, and the masses of people who read the daily news could understand what we were trying to say about what socialism would be like, not in russia or china, but in our united states. and i think the book succeeds in making clear how people would harmed, byt be socialism. because it has to be the most of a chronic form of government ever conceived. getichael, how did frances you involved in this project? and to the surprise of many, the book is being published by harpercollins. how did that happen? >> the publishing world, i knew

defensefrom mumia project. the prophets, if we make any, are going to his defense. from pacifica, this is democracy now! she said she wanted a major publisher. she went to oxford, and the guy said, it's not balanced enough. she said, what you mean? we lost there, so she went to harper. has dealings with harper threw her agency. they turned her down and said, well, we don't think -- our marketing people said we can't sell enough books. she said, let me remind you of something. i gave you the book that sold the second most to the bible in the world, "good night moon" and i want this book published. they called her back and said, your passion has won out. come up and see us. so frances and i and my wife

debbie go up to their office on 53rd street near fifth avenue and the with the executive vice president. he has an office that looks like a living room with a couch, chair, tables, desk. we walked in and on the couch are two pillows. one set a drawing of queen elizabeth ii and the other has a drawing of carof karl marx. british guy.enial he said, what is your definition of socialism? i said is not only political democracy, but economic democracy. he said, we take $10,000 as an advance? i said, will you plowed into promoting the book? he said, will try. i said, we've got a deal. that is how we got harper's. >> on the question, what is socialism, michael, for people in this country, the media

rarely talks about it, to say the least, if ever mentioned in his marriage in way -- it is in a disparaging way. >> the first block is on capitalism. just turn to democracy now! and you can realize what is going on. the second part, the meat of the book, has 20 chapters on everything you can imagine. every institution in the society of how it would be different if we did not have capitalism. the last part of the book are six essays on how we get from where we are to where we want to be, how to make that transformation. juan, is full of wisdom, not the least of which is your essay on immigrants and the role they will play in that transformation. in any case, in a word, paula a historian who wrote one of the chapters says, socialism involves people taking control of their own lives,

shaping their own futures, and together controlling the resources that make such freedom possible will stop socialism is to nothing if it is not a movement of the great majority in interest in the great majority. people can only become truly free through their own efforts. message, good passover by the way. that is our definition of socialism. it is a true democracy. >> frances goldin, one of the most striking essays -- or were many in the book -- was the one and angela davis on the prison industrial complex. all, of all, -- first of how did you put together that collaboration between the two of them, one traveling around the world and one incarcerated, and the importance of that particular essay? >> it was easy because angela davis was a supporter of mumia. they were not unknown to each other. also, she wrote a book about the end of prisons.

it was a natural for us. it was not easy because she is free and he is in prison. they had to collaborate by stuff going back and forth. it was complicated. but what they came up with was an entirely different approach to how we deal with crime. it is more likely done by native americans when they had people who broke laws, and they were tried, so to speak, i their peers -- their mothers and fathers and doctors and chiefs, -- who embarrassed them in front of the community and made them feel bad about what they had done and what they could do to overcome their crime. so it was called "commons." community, in the a community, and for the community. that is why she says, get rid of prisons and just have local

tribunals were people who know this person, man or woman, can put them on the right track. it is revolutionary, but makes a lot of sense. our prison system locks up millions of people who have never committed a crime in their lives. mumia abuone being jamal, who never killed anyone. he has incidentally become one of the leading intellectuals in the united states. i am now working on his seventh book. all of his books had been in print for 30 years, and every one of them remains in print. >> in january, we interviewed kshama sawant, one of the few socialists to hold elected office in the country. she is in economic teacher and

former occupy wall street activist who was elected to seattle city council after she ran on a campaign to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. we asked why she decided to run as a socialist. >> the hardest thing about running as a socialist is, one, to show there is a definite openness for clear alternatives, not only to the big business parties, but the system they represent, the capitalist system. if you look at recent polls, they show people, especially young people, much more open to socialism than you would find out from the corporate media. people are also fed up with the political dysfunction. >> is the new socialist seattle city council member kshama sawant. , when people say you choose democracy or you choose capitalism, the contradiction in that? >> capitalism is in compatible

of democracy. fascism is compatible, but not democracy and capitalism don't go. we can see that trend. michael ratner wrote the and we called it the emerging police state. people said it was over the top, but it is exactly what is happening. we either develop some socialist leadership or we will have fascism. that is the direction things are going in. imagine -- "imagine living in a socialist usa," will help people get to where we want to be. >> frances goldin, literary