04/17/14 04/17/14 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] >> from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> on the brink of civil war. i hope that everyone who is responsible for making the decisions at the moment, i mean both the ukrainian authorities who we can't consider legitimate, but these are the authorities who came to power as a result of the coup, have brains to avoid driving the country -- >> as negotiations begin in

geneva, three pro-russian protesters are killed by ukrainian security forces in the eastern part of ukraine. as nato builds up its forces in the region and vladimir putin asserts the right to use force in ukraine, are we sing a new cold war? we will speak with professor stephen cohen. then, fixing the electoral college. >> we have no more battleground states, no more spectator states. national real election, which in the whole history of this country, we have never, ever had. >> omentum for national popular vote grows as new york governor andrew cuomo signed the compact toward its electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the majority of the popular vote. we will speak with "new yorker" writer hendrik hertzberg. the new details emerge about the key role of the air force in the cia's secret overseas drone war. all of that and more coming up.

this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. ukraine are slated to hold the first direct talks today amidst rising unrest. in an overnight clash, ukrainian security forces killed three pro-russian separatists, wounded 13, and took 63 cap this after they tried to storm a military base. thefinding comes just after collapse of the ukrainian operation to retake government buildings in several towns. separatists seized ukrainian armored vehicles and crowds surrounded another column, forcing troops to hand over the pins from the rifles and retreat. four partyments, as talks begin in geneva today between russia, ukraine, the european union, and the united states. we will have more on the story after headlines. the syrian government is facing new allegations of using chemical weapons against civilians. videos posted online show what

appear to be victims of a chlorine gas attack in the northern syria town. the al-assad regime in opposition rebels each of accused the other side of responsibility. al qaeda in yemen has released a new video threatening attacks on the united states. the video features footage of what appears to be large al qaeda gathering with hundreds welcoming the release of prisoners freed in a jailbreak. detroitrepresenting public employees has accepted cuts to their pensions as part of the negotiations around the city's attempted and groups the. the board of detroit's general retirement system has approved a deal that would cut pensions by 4.5% and scrap cost-of-living increases. this comes after retired police officers and firefighters accepted a more favorable deal that left pensions untouched. together, the two groups represent about 23,000 of the

30,000 public workers who have faced threats to their retirement benefits. following the bankruptcy filing by detroit's emergency manager last year. detroit's bankruptcy effort is in largest by a municipality u.s. history. new figures show deportation cases in the nation's immigration courts are on the decline. "the new york times" reports court-ordered deportations have dropped 43% since president obama took office in 2009. the obama administration has brought 26% fewer cases since its first year, and immigration judges have increasingly ruled against the partitions. the courts only account for a portion of the deportations, and the deportations, and overall number of deportations dropped just 10% in 2013 from your before. president obama has deported an estimated 2 million people, the most by any administration in history. philadelphia has announced it will no longer detain undocumented immigrants for transfer to federal authorities

without a court warrant. the move by mayor michael nutter sharply cuts cooperation between philadelphia police and immigration and customs enforcement on holding detainees for potential deportation. nutter signed the policy into law at a news conference wednesday. >> every philadelphia and or person in philadelphia has the right to feel safe, secure, and protected. and i believe our new policy established by the executive order i will sign shortly will promote safety, because residents and others who are here will not need to fear that interacting with their government will result in a detainer for themselves or their loved ones. >> similar curbs have been enacted for two states and at least eight cities, but activists say philadelphia's effort may be the most progressive so far since it would effectively bring immigration holds to an end. a federal judge has overturned

north dakota's antiabortion law, the harshest in the country. the measure banned abortion once a fetal or embryonic heartbeat can be detected, which happens at about six weeks of pregnancy and many women do not know they are pregnant. it was slated to take effect in august. in his decision, district court -- the district court judge said the law is invalid and unconstitutional. general motors is asking a court to shield it from legal liability for all conduct predating its 2009 bankruptcy. a motion filed this week seeks recognition of the split from old gm into the post the groups he new gm. if approved, the request could protect gm from its claims over the defective ignition switch linked to at least 13 of possibly hundreds of deaths. the company's request was disclosed in a federal lawsuit filed in texas over the defect. in its court motion, gm says --

gm has yet to reply to dozens of questions about the defect submitted by the national highway traffic and safety administration earlier this month. the auto giant is paying a $7,000 fine her each day it fails to provide the answers in full. at a news conference, gm ceo mary barra denied the company is stonewalling. >> we work on those every day. some of the questions [indiscernible] we are trying to be as responsive as possible, but we will not sacrifice the accuracy and the right to tell of the answers to this conflict situation. we are working on it with a dedicated team that works around the clock to provide the answers. >> president obama spoke at a community college in pennsylvania on wednesday to

unveil a job training and basement initiative for young workers. he pledged 500 million dollars to colleges that help students find jobs and another $100 million for prison ship grants -- apprenticeship grants. announcing the we are going to award nearly $500 million to those institutions who were doing it best in all 50 states, using existing money to create opportunity for hard-working folks like you. >> former new york city mayor michael bloomberg has launched a new gun control group aimed at taking on the nra. bloomberg has committed $50 million to funding everytown for gun safety, a grassroots group of voters against gun violence. lisa wheeler brown, ford a mother who lost her mother -- her child to gun violence in seattle mayor ed murray were among those to join the group's unveiling. >> i'm going to do all i can to

prevent another mother from losing a child to gun violence. >> we are announcing everytown for gun safety, an organization that brings mayors, moms, and a grassroots movement of americans together to deal with the issue of gun violence. gun violence kills 86 americans every day. it happens everywhere. it cities, small towns, on our streets, schools, shopping malls , and places of worship. >> the senate intelligence committee has opened a probe of a leak that revealed details of its report on cia torture. the class to reported last week the report questions the program's underlying legal framework and accuses the agency of impeding its overseers and manipulating the media. panel chair dianne feinstein says she has asked the justice department to investigate how mcclatchy obtained the information. a federal appeals court has upheld a contempt of court ruling against the technology firm lavabit, which shut down

rather than disclose information to the u.s. government. --abit closed its security security now service after refusing to comply with a government effort to tap his customers encryption keys. the fbi was targeting national security agency leaker and lavabit user edward snowden. but instead of just targeting snowden, the government effectively wanted access to the accounts of 400,000 other lavabit customers. in his ruling, the federal judge avoided ruling on the merits of lavabit's claims, instead saying the company made an air in its appeal. to see our interviews with the founder of lavabit, go to democracynow.org. edward snowden was a surprise question are today at a televised call-in show hosted by russian president vladimir putin. then spent much of broadcast fielding questions on the crisis in ukraine. but snowden asked putin of russia is engaged in the same mass surveillance practices that snowden exposed in the united

states. >> i have seen little public discussion of russia's own involvement in the policies of mass surveillance. i would like to ask you, does russia intercept, store, or analyze in any way the communications of millions of individuals? and do you believe that simply increasing the effectiveness of intelligence or law-enforcement --estigation can justify rather than subjects? thank you. >> our intelligence efforts are strictly regulated by our law for how special forces can use the special equipment as the intercept -- as they intercept or online. you have to get a court permission to stock a particular person.

we don't have a mass system of such interception. in accordance with our law, it cannot exist. we do not have a mass scale, uncontrollable efforts like that. i hope we won't do that. and we don't have as much money as they have in the states, and we don't have the technical devices they have in the states. arespecial services stickley controlled by the society and by the law and regulated by the law. >> it was russian president vladimir putin answering the question of edward snowden who called into his talk show. and the salsa and bolero singer has died at the age of 78. he was killed early this morning in a car crash in puerto rico.

to newrico, he moved york city and started out as a percussionist before going on to sing with the sextet. blaster he announced he had been diagnosed with a treatable form of cancer. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. >> welcome to all our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. as negotiations over the crisis in ukraine begin in geneva, tension is rising in eastern ukraine after security forces killed three pro-russian protesters, wounded 13, and took 63 captive. said the officials pro-russians had attempted to storm a military base. the finding comes just after the collapse of ukrainian operation to retake government buildings in several eastern towns. on wednesday, pro-russian separatists took control of some of the armored vehicles and crowds surrounded another

column, forcing the troops to hand over the pins from their rifles and retreat. earlier today, russian president vladimir putin accused the authorities in kiev of plunging the country into an abyss. >> people in eastern ukraine have started to arm themselves. instead of realizing that something bad is going on in the ukrainian state and make any attempts to start a dialogue, the authorities have started to threaten with force even more and unleash tanks and aviation on silly populations. this is another grave crime on the current kiev authorities. i hope all will be possible to realize which whole in which abyss the current authorities are moving and dragging the whole country with them. i think the start of today's talks in geneva is very important. i think it is an for today to think about how to get out of the situation, to offer people a real, not ostentatious, but real dialogue. >> vladimir putin speaking

earlier today on russian television. new steps were announced because of the ukraine crisis. >> we will have more planes in ,he air, warships on the water -- more ships on the water, and more readiness on the land. for example, air policing aircraft will fly over the baltic region, allied ships will , they to the baltic sea eastern mediterranean, and elsewhere as required. >> to talk more about ukraine, us,hen cohen is with professor of russian studies at new york university and author of, "soviet fates and lost alternatives: from stalinism to the new cold war." it is now out in paperback.

he recently wrote a piece for the nation headlined "cold war again: who is responsible?" what exactly is happening right now in ukraine? >> those are big questions. we are not at the beginning of the cold war, we are well into it. which alerts us to the fact, just watching what you showed up there, that hot war is imaginable now. for the first time in my lifetime, my adult lifetime, hot war with russia. it is unlikely, but it is conceivable. if it is conceivable, something has to be done about it. you did two things an introduction that were important. to actually allowed putin speak for himself. he is being filtered through the interpretation of the mass media here allegedly what he said, and it is not represented. the second thing, what is

happening at this moment or yesterday, the political head of nato just announced a major escalation of nato forces in europe. "we will increase our power in the air, sea, and land." as negotiations begin today in geneva, we are demanding that yet,ans de-escalate, and nato, we are escalating as these negotiations begin. if you were to say, what is going on in ukraine today -- unfortunately, the focus is entirely on eastern ukraine. we don't have any western media and western ukraine, the other half of the country. we are not clear what is going on there. clearly, things are getting worse and worse. each side has a story that totally conflicts with the other side's story. there seems to be no middle ground.

if there's is no middle ground in public discourse in the russian media or american media, it is not clear what middleground they can find in these negotiations. personally, i think, and people will say, does it seems to me the proposals the russians made a month ago for resolving the conflict are at least a good starting point. it is not clear the united states will accept it. >> it was just a few weeks ago when we had you on, as the crisis was beginning to unfold in ukraine and a lot of what you said then turned out to be true, which was that you fear there would be a split in ukraine itself between the east and west . obviously, cry me a was just developing then. but it seems that all of the and this is an coverage here is that the crisis started with russian aggression. of with the earlier period what was nato and europe's involvement in ukraine before the deposing of the elected president. >> i think you emphasized the

absolute flaw in at least the american -- i don't follow european press very closely -- the political narrative, as a historian, i would say this conflict began 300 years ago, but we can't do that. as a contemporary observer, it certainly began in november 2013 when the european union issued an ultimatum to the then president or elected president of ukraine, viktor yanukovych, that sign an agreement with us but you can't have one with russia, too. in my mind, that precipitated this crisis. it is why give a country that has been profoundly divided or centuries and certainly in recent decades, an ultimatum? choose an divide your country further. when we say today, putin initiated this chaos and danger

of war, this confrontation, the answer is, no, that narrative is wrong from the beginning. it was triggered by the european union's unwise ultimatum. now flash forward to one month ago. remember, european foreign ministers -- i think three of them -- went to kiev and negotiated with conoco which was still the president, in agreement. -- negotiate with conoco which, in agreement. what of the agreement call for? jan echo which would remain president until december -- viktor yanukovych would remain president until december, then there will be a presidential election. he could run or not. meanwhile, it would be a kind of government of national accord trying to pull the government together. and russia would ship in and try to save ukrainian economy. but there would also be parliamentary elections.

it lasted six hours. the next day, the street, which was now a mob. it was no longer peaceful protesters as it had been in november. it now become something else. control by the altar national forces over to viktor yanukovych who fled, burned up the agreement. who initiated the next stage of the crisis? it was a russia. they wanted the agreement to hold. you can't go back to it. there's a report this morning that viktor yanukovych mayfly to eastern ukraine today or tomorrow, which will be a whole new dimension. the point of it is, putin did not want -- this is reality, a fact. putin did not want this crisis. you did not initiate it. but with putin, once you get something like that, you get mr. pushback. that is what you're saying. even as americans admit, he holds all the options.

we have none. that is not good policymaking, is it? >> let's turn to president obama . >> is vladimir putin provoking a and will youre, and western leaders allow him to get away with that? >> i think what is absolutely clear is not only have russians gone into crimea and annexed it, violating the sovereignty of ukraine, but what have also done is supported, at minimum, nonstate militias in southern and eastern ukraine. and we have seen some of the activity that has been taking place there. that he said, which i consider to be unwise and possibly reckless. he went on to say that russia would not go to war with us because our conventional weapons were superior. that is an exceedingly provocative thing to say. unaware,ems to be

president obama, that russian military doctrine says that when confronted by overwhelmingly dimensional forces, we can use nuclear weapons. they mean tactical nuclear weapons. i don't think any informed president, his handlers, would have permitted him to make such a statement. in fact, depending on how far you want to take this conversation about the obama administration, i don't recall in my lifetime in confrontations with russia in administration who seemingly public statements to be so misinformed, even uninformed, both about ukraine and russia. for example, when john kerry testified last week to congress that all the unrest in ukraine was due to putin's revocations, he denied the underlying problem, which is divided ukraine. everybody knows history, god, whoever is responsible for our destiny, created a ukraine that may have one state that was one

country. it may be two or three countries. but for john kerry to say all of this conflict in ukraine is due to putin simply makes a resolution to the problem by denying a problem. let me ask you a question. when in the world was the director of the american cia -- >> i was going ask you about that. >> it is mind-boggling that it was called a secret mission when my grandson knows that the ukrainian intelligence services are full of pro-russian officers. and yet they send the head of the cia at this crucial moment to kiev, thereby reinforcing the russian narrative that everything that is happening in ukraine is an american provocation? what are they thinking? nato,ust want to turn to a series of steps to reinforce its forces. this is nato in eastern europe because of the ukraine crisis. nato's top military commander

philip breedlove described the moves as defensive measures. we havehe actions that proposed and have been accepted today are clearly defensive in nature. and i think it is going to be very straightforward to see them as defensive in nature. they're designed to assure our allies. and so i think in any case, it is always a chance that you run that something might be misinterpreted. but we specifically designed these measures to assure our be clearly, and to seen as defensive in nature. >> your response? >> i never know what purely defensive weapons have men. resuming their guns but only shoot and one to greg -- presuming they are guns that only shoot in one direction. they're talking about giving the ukrainians small arms, night vision stuff, superior intelligence. they can't give them

intelligence information because ukrainian intelligence services -- the tapes we have had, the leaked tapes reveal the real debate going on. this is a distraction. it is what rasmussen said earlier, the political head of nato, that we are building up as we talk, our forces in eastern europe. understand what is going on. when we took in some and meaning the united states and nato, all of these countries in eastern europe into nato, we agreed with the russians we would not put military installations there. there are some barracks and airstrips and stuff like that, but we did not station troops that could march toward russia there. now what nato is saying, it is time to do that. russia already felt encircled by nato member states on its borders, the baltics are on its

borders. if we remove the nato forces, including american troops, toward russia's borders, where will we be then? it is obviously going to militarize the situation and therefore raise the danger of war. i think it is important to emphasize, russia will not back off. this is existential. too much has happened. it is not just putin. as a political class which has opinions, public support is running overwhelmingly in favor of russian policy. putin will compromise of these negotiations, but he will not back off if confronted militarily. >> i want to ask about the situation in russia, especially the -- some reports are that 's population has surged.

movement beginning to gather strength against the more authoritarian aspects of russian society. >> since this is democracy now!, let me assert my agent credential. in the 1970's i lived in russia along within soviet dissidents. they were great people, pro-democracy, struggled and paid the price. they were marginalized. this struggle has continued, even under putin. but the results of this confrontation, east-west confrontation, and i can't emphasize how fundamental and important it is, is going to set back whatever prospects remain in russia for further democratization or re-democratization and possibly a whole generation. it is simply going to take all the traction these people have from under them. still worse, the most authoritarian forces in russia

and russia's authoritarian traditions will now be reinvigorated politically -- >> and nationalist, as well. >> i would not say altra it isalists, but certainly nationalists. we are nationalist country. we call it patriotism. the number of american president ever read in and said i'm not -- ran an american patriot -- i'm an american patriot. a government. europeans have states. we have a government. you take away the language, and this is not unusual, but when it surges like this as it doesn't this is what you get. that is why think the american policy has been unwise from the beginning. >> the front page of "the new york times." they're tripping up early to russia's action in crimea. well, the asymmetry of all of

this come a we say putin has 40,000 troops on ukraine's border. nobody is exactly clear how long they have been and what they're doing. obviously, they're not helping the situation. we have sanctions that we may put in place against putin's cronies. this is what the white house has, we will sanction the cronies and presumably they will go to him and say, look, you have to stop this because my bank account -- this is utter nonsense. first of all, he will just appoint new oligarchs. secondly, there is a law in the parliament being debated that the state will compensate anybody whose assets are frozen in the west. i don't know if they will pass a law, be you can see this does not bother -- >> we just have one minute. the significance of the meeting in to neva -- in geneva. >> i don't know what is going to happen, but things are getting worse and worse. people are being killed.

we are closer to a military confrontation. the russians went nato expansion and all former soviet republics. i think we should give them that. this has been a reckless policy. ukraine is several countries and you can only hold it together with the federal constitution, and they want a stable ukraine and will contribute financially, making that possible. i don't see any reason there other than the white house saying -- saving political phase why that is not a good political negotiation to begin with. >> professor stephen cohen, thank you for being with us. author of numerous books on russia and the soviet union, most recent, "soviet fates and lost alternatives: from stalinism to the new cold war." it is just out in paperback. this is democracy now! stay with us. ♪ [music break]

he died early this morning at the age of 78 in a car crash in san juan, puerto rico. known throughout all of latin america and puerto rico. new york has become the latest data join an agreement that would transform the way we elect the president of the united states. under the compact for a national popular vote, states across the country have pledged to award their electoral votes to the presidential candidate who wins the popular vote. if enough states sign on, it would guarantee the presidency goes to the candidate who wins the most votes across the country. it would prevent scenarios like what happened in 2000, when al gore won the popular vote, it still lost the election to

george w. bush. >> the compact will kick in only when enough states have signed on to reach a threshold of 270 electoral votes. this week, new york governor andrew cuomo rock the campaign a step closer, adding new york's 29 electoral votes to those already pledged by nine other states including california, illinois, massachusetts, and by washington, d c in a statement he said -- josephk state senator jeff griffo, republican, sponsored the bill. 100% of their message is seen in approximately 16 battleground states. new york has 19.5 million people come a but routinely are ignored

by campaigns. i want to empower people. i want to make new york state relevant international campaign against. i want democracy that creates excitement of people, not apathy. theing this creates opportunity and leverages the combined power of the states in the compact to say no longer can you take is for granted, no longer can you effectively dissent franchise millions of americans are ignoring us. no longer can you assume that you have our vote. >> to talk more about the campaign for national popular vote, we're joined by hendrik hertzberg, a staff writer for " new yorker" magazine has been writing in support of the national popular vote since 2006. welcome to democracy now! ofk about the significance new york joining on, but also what the national popular vote is. >> it is an important step psychologically because now the threshold, instead of being 50% of the weight of the fresh told them is now 61% of the way.

-- threshold, now 61% of the way. new york is the media capital. install really happen in the brain of the media until they happen in new york. even though california, new jersey, washington, all of these other states that have signed on, it is only now starting to raise to a level of some sort of public attention. most people don't even know this is going on. that includes people extremely well-informed. they don't realize we're more than halfway to solving one of the central problems of our constitution, which is this electoral college set up. the problem with the setup is not the electoral college itself, the problem is the winner take all by state. that is what creates the anomalies. what the national popular vote plan does is, by a whole bunch of states getting together to award their electors to ever wins in all 50 states, as soon as that happens, then it doesn't

matter what state you live in. your vote is just as much equal to go after, the campaign for. it means, for instance in new york, where it is pointless to do doorbell ringing. what difference does it make? everybody knows which way new york is going. but if a vote in new york is the same as one in pennsylvania or ohio, that really is transformational. even more than preventing a wrong winner is that you get grassroots politics happening in every corner of the country. if you're worried about the lyrical corruption, worried about campaign finance, for example copper what this would do is all of those billions raised for campaigns come instead of being funneled into a handful of states, they have to be spread out across the country so relative impact would be much less. this is extraordinary reform.

>> what allows a group of states to be able to come together and reach a compact like this? within a constitutional amendment be needed -- wouldn't a constitutional amendment be needed? >> one is what you just mentioned, interstate compacts. there are hundreds of them. the port authority of new york and new jersey -- may not be the best example lately, but that is example of an interstate compact. it is in the constitution. the other part is that the only thing in the constitution about ,lecting a president is basically, a one-liner that says each state shall appoint a number of electors in such manner as the legislature thereof may determine. that is all it says. everything else is left to the states to figure out. in the winner take all notion, that is something that came in

20, 30 years after the constitution was written. it is because a party that controls the state legislature isn't going to say, if given a choice between keeping all those electors for themselves or giving some portion of them to the opposition, of course, they're going to do it this way. michael gianaris was among those who oppose joining the compact for national popular vote. a lot current system electoral college votes based on the state's population whereas a system such as a national popular vote to do so based on voter turnout in a presidential election, which means states that have a high number of unregistered residents would not counted as much were states that have low voter turnout would not be counted as much as they are under the current system. yours a myriad of other issues welled to those that have been able to saturate a big city you market to affect war than they currently do, which is already too much. as well as the possibility for some states that are unhappy with the results, petrone chile

between election day and electoral college vote, changing the state laws to pull back -- potentially between election day and electoral college vote, changing the state laws to pull back. >> he is democrat and the person we played before the national popular vote was a republican. can you answer his points? >> he is wrong on every single one of them. you cannot withdrawal from the interstate compacts for 90 days before election. that is part of the deal from a part of the contract you make. as far as turnout is concerned, right now, there is sort of a five-point a 10 point difference in the turnout between battleground states and spectators states. so when he have a nationwide vote, you're going to see turnout increase, but don't say it like it is a bad thing. he mentions the electoral

notege is based on -- is based on how many people vote, the population. and that is sort of one of the sins of the electoral college. the reason it is based on of theion is so 3/5 slaves could be counted to give the slave owners more representation. electoral college mechanism imports that right which is the senate and the house, right into this choice of the presidency. that part of it is gone now, but that is the original sin. of course it makes more sense for the president to be chosen voters,s, one by one rather than by states with a fixed number of votes, even if only three people vote in the state and it has 10 electoral votes. they will still go to that candidate. all the national popular vote plan does is really elect the president the way we elect a

dogcatcher or governor or senator or representative. it's not that complicated. >> but my question is, given the fact that you would only need the state to equal a number of 270 votes to join the compact, and they would cover therefore, be decisive in terms of who would get elected of who wins the popular vote, but isn't it possible just as well for the compact to be broken years down the line? in other words, for the legislature to come in and decide to leave? >> sure, that would be possible. that is one of the advantages to this. we can try it. we can try electing a president democratically and see if we like it. if we like it, we can keep it. if we don't, we don't have to keep it wil. that is a plus, not a minus. i might add, it is not as if the states that are compacting would

then decide who is president. no, the only thing holder site whose president is the voters in all the states that are compacting and not compacting. on, new york, maryland, new jersey, illinois, hawaii, massachusetts, vermont from california, rhode island, and washington. what happens next? >> right now there is a focus on connecticut where the bill is being considered. one, kind of a one by state to state. people may notice the states you mentioned are all blue states. and of course because of what happened in 2000, republicans tend to have -- they kind of and a reaction to this think suspiciously, maybe this is al gore's revenge. there are plenty of republicans who have backed this. if you believe in democracy, if you believe the way to have an

election is count the votes and see who wins, then it really doesn't matter if you are republican or democrat. yet there are these inbred prejudices, republicans, maybe they're more resistant to change, maybe they think this is getting around the constitution -- which it definitely is not. they have more skepticism to overcome. taxing then't like rich where it is a matter of principle. it is a matter of principle the other way. if you're democracy, you really ought to be for this. >> thank you for being with us, hendrik hertzberg, a staff writer at "new yorker" and running a supporter the national vote since 2006. i think you said you have written 51 pieces on this. board of thethe electoral reform organization fairvote. when we come back, we're going to england and to norway to talk about drones and who is running the u.s. drone operation. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. we end today's show with the new film that reveals how a regular u.s. air force unit based in the nevada desert is responsible for flying the cia's drone strike program in pakistan. unitocumentary identified conducting cia strikes in pakistan's tribal areas as the 17th reconnaissance squadron, which is located on the creech air force base, about 45 miles from las vegas. this is the trailer for "drone." >> the ultimate voyeurs, the ultimate peeping toms. i am watching this person and this person has no clue what is going on. no one is going to catch us. we are getting orders to take these people's lives. >> you never know who you're killing, as you never actually

see a face. you just have silhouette. they don't have to take the shot or bear the burden. i'm the one who has to bear that burden. >> there's always been a connection between the world of war in the world of entertainment. the military has invested in creating video games that they're using as recruiting tools. unbelievably -- war is an unbelievably profitable business. >> they have taken out a lot of al qaeda leadership. it is cheap. it doesn't involve putting troops on the ground. >> i believe the united states of america must remain a standardbearer in the conduct of war. that is what makes us different from those whom we fight. >> the united states is violating one of the most fundamental rights of all -- the right to life.

>> there's a large number of innocent civilians who are being killed, and that has to be reported. >> the majority of the secret drone strikes that have taken place, we have always understood, having carried out by the central intelligence agency. >> there is a lie hidden within the troops. for theis the trailer new documentary "drone" that premiered this week on national television in germany and france. it's director tonje hessen schei joins us now from norway. and in london, we're joined by chris woods, one of the people in the film, and an award-winning reporter who investigates drone warfare and resell he wrote an article called, "cia's pakistan drone strikes carried out by regular u.s. air force personnel." featured in the new film and working on a forthcoming book called, "sudden justice: america's secret drone wars."

chris,et's start with you. the significance of the air with theng involved drone strikes in pakistan. >> the u.s. air force has a long history of working with the central intelligence agency. you go back to the 1950's, 1960's, u.s. air force pilots cia flights over russia. what is different here is the cia and their carriers have targeted killings and has been doing so for more than a decade. what we found and what the film shows is that a conventional u.s. air force squadron, regular men and women in the air force, have actually been carrying out these targeted killings for the cia for a decade now. i think that is going to surprise quite a lot of people. >> and the implications of that in terms of the chain of command, in terms of the us possibility of the military

versus the cia? well, as i said, the regular air force personnel but they're taking orders from the civilian intelligence agency, orders to kill. shown,ork and others has for example in pakistan, where many of these targeted killings are taking place, 2.5 thousand people a killed by these drone strikes, among them props 400 civilians. there have been some really problematic kinds of bombings. for example, the deliberate targeting of the skewers and funerals, which is still under investigation as possible war crimes by u.s. investigation teams. where does this leave conventional air force answering to a zillion children's agency, where is the chain of command? we don't know. the cia and the pentagon all decided they were not going to talk on this occasion. and they -- >> let's go to another clip from the film about how the cia's

pakistan drones are carried out by regular u.s. air force personnel. we hear from two former drone operators, former air force pilot brandon bryant and michael haas. it begins with chris woods followed by ben emmerson. >> the majority of the secret drone strikes that have taken place, we've always understood, been carried out by the central intelligence agency. the most egregious of u.s. intelligence -- the most secretive of u.s. intelligence agencies, protecting huge layers of laws and anything that cia is involved in, we really are not supposed to know. crucial obstacle to transparency was the decision to handle a targeted killing by drone program into the hands of the intelligence agency, where accountability is impossible. but the united states is engaged migratetive program, to

it away from the cia into the hands of the dod. within those lion troops. it is, it is always been the air force that has flown those missions. the cia might be the customer, but the air force has always flown it. the 17 squadron that flies, they are the can play what i'm doing but i can tell you that it is supersecret. it is area 51 isolated on a single base and he gets pretty widely known that the ca controls their mission. under robbie for her left creech, there are putting privacy fences up so you cannot even see the front doors for the parking lot.

at that point you don't even know who is in there anymore. people brag. people talk about how they were so secret and that they were kicking so much [bleep] and killing terrorists. the cia label is just an excuse to not have to give up any information. it's all it has ever been. nothing is going to change. at least, nothing that we can see. >> that is brandon bryant and michael haas, both drone operators, a clip from the new film, "drone." we turn to the film maker who made the film, tonje hessen schei, speaking to us from oslo, norway. the significance of what you have found. michael haas speaking to for the first time, is that right? >> yes, that is correct.

michael was getting very frustrated with the amount of secrecy that the cia war. -- the cia war. he also felt it was very wrong -- the other drone operator that we have the film, brandon, had been the only one speaking out for all this time. so both their stories, i think, are very important for us to know what is happening from inside of the drone program. >> tonje hessen schei, the relationship between the cia and ,he pentagon and video gamers and their desire to recruit gamers. could you talk about that? >> in the film, we look at how military around the world are targeting gamers and the rich

in the recruiting. they been doing this for a long time. in the film, we visited several gaming conferences where the military is very actively recruiting gamers for its modern warfare for not just drone, but cyber warfare. i think the line between the is veryand real war interesting. and something we need to take seriously. >> and what does that do as well, not only between virtual and real world, but to the moral responsibility of people who are recruited to do these kinds of attacks? >> i think that is a very interesting question. i actually got the idea for the film when i heard the story of a gamer who dropped out of college or high school, and join the army and was quickly recruited as a drone pilot. and at the age of 19, he became an instructor for other drone

pilots. to me, this was very concerning. that is how i started looking into this. i don't believe that drone pilots think they're actually playing a videogame, but i think the similarities are very confident very obvious. and something we need to look at. also -- i'm sorry, but as far as the interface and the joystick, i know there's a close relationship between the world of entertainment and the world of the military. >> tonje hessen schei, you're showing this in europe and have shown up in germany and france. what is the reaction to the u.s. drone strikes? >> we have had very good reactions from our premier. we're just releasing the film right now. but i do think here in europe, there is a great concern about the u.s. president of the drones to me using targeted killing. it will be very interesting to see.

the unh are really pushing to acquire armed drones, so i think it is very important now we are coming out the film right now. >> chris woods, there's this film being shown on american television, video, supposedly that shows al qaeda in yemen threatening attacks on the u.s. that features footage of what appears to be a large al qaeda gathering in yemen with hundreds welcoming the release of prisoners freed in a jailbreak. there were some commentary yesterday on u.s. television, this is the result worries this growing in yemen because of the pressure not to have drone strikes in yemen. your response, chris woods, and did you know about this video? early drone strikes after stopped in pakistan -- have temporarily stopped in yemen, but are still going on in yemen.

pakistan. it is during for al qaeda to be so public and in the open holding this gathering. the number two al qaeda in yemen was present and he is a public. this was a public taunting, if you like. the very act of appearing outside a large numbers is, if at like, summing your nose this ability of the united states to strike anywhere with drones. it is worrying. al qaeda has not been broken. it has carried out a number of appalling attacks both on civilians and on the military in yemen in recent weeks. it is still there. it is still a problem. the drone strikes are continuing. >> chris woods, thank you for being with us, recently wrote a being with us, recently wrote a piece in the guardian

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