07/10/14 07/10/14 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] >> from pacifica, this is democracy now! when i received a document that approved i have been tapped talking to my client, i was shocked be on believe. it is like finding out there's a peeping tom. you just wonder, whatever -- what other privacy debate violate? >> "meet the muslim-american leaders the fbi and nsa have been spying on." among them, republican lawyer who worked for the department of homeland security, the head of

cair, and a prominent muslim civil rights attorney. we will speak with two of them. , asal gill and asim ghafoor well as glenn greenwald who broke the story based on documents leaked by edward snowden. then we go to indonesia to speak with investigative journalist allan nairn. >> joko widodo who is backed by killers, and you have prabowo subianto who is a killer himself. >> quick counts in the cape indonesian general, prabowo subianto, has been beaten by the governor of jakarta, joko widodo . we will speak about the significance of this victory. all of that and more coming up. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

the death toll from israel's attack on the gaza strip has more than doubled in 24 hours as the besieged territory comes under relentless bombing. at least 44 gaza residents have been killed in the past day, bringing the total to this week around 80. the palestinian news agency reports the dead include 18 children and 10 women. the palestinian ministry of health says over 600 people have been wounded. in the deadliest single attack since the offensive began, at least seven palestinian civilians were killed when israeli warplanes bombed several homes and it is the populated area where the victims were sleeping. bodies were pulled from the rubble of at least three homes in neighboring buildings. a palestinian journalist was killed in central gaza after his car was bombed. video footage shows it have been marked as a media vehicle. the israeli military says is as dropped 800 tons of homes on 700 -- 750 targets.

hospitals in gaza have been overwhelmed with victims and are running low on basic supplies. egypt opened up the rafah border crossing to evacuate some of the wounded. palestinian militants continue to fire rockets into israel, with more than 60 launched on wednesday, ringing the total to over 200 this week. thousands have taken refugee in shelters. in wednesday, hamas political leader offered to renew the 2012 cease-fire based on three conditions -- and and to the offensive, the release of prisoners initially freed under a prisoner swap recently rearrested in israeli raids, and is really respect for the palestinian unity government. israeli officials have rejected his terms and vowed to continue the attack. israel's intelligence minister suggested a looming ground invasion, saying israel "will have to take over gaza temporarily, for a few

week." speaking in tel aviv, the benjaminrime minister netanyahu blamed hamas for rocket attacks on israel and for their civilian deaths resulting from israeli strikes. >> today we extended our operations. we will continue to protect our civilians against hamas attacks on them. -- contrast,tract is putting civilians in harm's way. hamas is committing a double war crime. it targets is really civilians while hiding behind palestinian civilians. >> the israeli cabinet has authorized the option of calling up some 40,000 reservists for potential ground assault. initial protest against their government, small group of israelis rallied in tel aviv to oppose the gaza bombings. >> we believe this cycle of violence must be ended and it is definitely not going to be ended

my more violence and bombs in gaza, and it is not going to help the people in the south or tel aviv that are being subject to missiles in the past few days. >> the palestinian authority president abbas on wednesday called israel's attack on gaza an act of genocide, accusing the netanyahu government of a "war against the palestinian people as a whole, defending its west bank settlements." pa's chiefton, the envoy to the u.s. urged president obama to use american leverage over israel to stop the attack. >> i would like to say president obama, there is no -- you cannot equate between an occupied people and an occupier. the rising death toll on the side, the palestinian side, tells clearly who is the party that is suffering the most from this air violence. i think the united states -- they're the only country that can rein in israel.

they're the only country providing that support and without that support, israel cannot escape the accountable for their actions. >> the obama administration offered continued support for the israeli strikes. the news conference in washington, the state department spokesperson said the u.s. once de-escalation, but added it backs the offensive and blames hamas for the violence. >> as you know, we are encouraging all sides to de-escalate the situation on the ground, but israel has every right to defend themselves and take steps to defend themselves. as we know, the aggression is currently coming from hamas in gaza. >> she repeatedly refused to answer question on whether palestinians have the right to defend themselves. the obama administration appears to have decided on a position of acting the israeli strikes but lobbying against a ground invasion. in a phone call to israeli prime minister internet tonight, john kerry reportedly said the u.s.

hopes to see israel stop the rocket fire without sending troops into gaza. palestinian solidarity rallies have been held around the world in recent days. in new york city, thousands gathered in front of the israeli mission to the when before marching through the streets. -- to the u.n. before marching through the streets. theo they understand that palestinians are not terrorists, but defending themselves. ir situation -- unfa they're going through. they have no rights to anything that we enjoy here as americans. >> the first up the cease-fire. no more killing of innocence. >> u.s. drone strikes in pakistan have killed at least six people. the attack had a compound and vehicle in a village in the north waziristan region. it is the fourth u.s. drone strike in pakistan since the obama administration ended a six-month pause last month. president obama is urging republicans to back his funding request for the record crisis on

the mexico border. 3.7as asked congress for billion dollars to speed up deportations and improve care for tens of thousands of detained children. on wednesday, obama met with republican governor rick harry to discuss the border crisis during a fundraising trip in texas. obama repeated his plea that central american parents not send their children to the border, and called on republicans to approve the funding. >> while we intend to do the right thing by these children, their parents need to know that this is an incredibly dangerous situation and it is unlikely that their children will be able to stay. i have asked parents across central america not to put their children in harms way in this fashion. congress has the capacity to work with all parties concerned to directly address this situation. they have said they want to see a solution. the supplemental offers them the capacity to vote immediately to

get it done. talks more than 52,000 fleeinganied children violence and poverty in central america have been seized since october. the united nations has called on the u.s. to consider treating them as refugees following a report finding close to 60% of those detained here in the u.s. could be entitled to refugee protections under international law. the white house has ordered a review of all intelligence training documents after leaks from edward snowden uncovered racial bias. the news website the intercept has revealed the nsa spying on five innocent americans apparently due to their muslim backgrounds and ties to muslim causes or individuals. the report also reveals language in an nsa training manual that lists the generic name for potential target as "mohammed reich had -- raghead." several dozen rights groups voiced concerns about a pattern

-- we will have more on the story later in the broadcast. among those we will interview, glenn greenwald. germany is investigating a new suspect on allegations of spying for the u.s. just days after the arrest of an intelligence official on similar charges. the german government says it is probing claims an official in the defense ministry spied for the united states. the first suspect, detained last week, reportedly admitted to passing on documents to u.s. contact. the alleged espionage is said to entail a u.s. effort to monitor a german parliament three probe of the initial revelations of nsa spying in germany exposed by whistleblower edward snowden. reports based on snowden's leaks revealed vast nsa operations in germany, including the bugging of chancellor angela merkel's cell phone. at least six people have been

killed in a shooting near houston, texas. four of the dead were children along with two adults. the suspect was detained after a standoff with the police. the killings reportedly resulted from a domestic dispute. meanwhile in chicago, the death toll from several shootings over the july 4 weekend has reached 14. a district court judge has struck down colorado's ban on same-sex marriage, saying it violates due process and equal protection guarantees under the constitution. courtthe 16th time a u.s. has ruled against a state gay marriage ban since last are supreme court decision ordering federal recognition of same-sex marriages. the ruling has been stayed ending an appeal. utah has appealed a decision striking down the state's marriage ban to the supreme court. the 10th u.s. circuit court of appeals recently upheld a lower court ruling the ban is unconstitutional. utah is skipping an appeal to the 10th circuit in favor of going directly to the supreme court. more than 1000 lgbt apples tied

the knot in december during a brief window when a district court struck down utah's ban. dozens of independent truck drivers at the ports of los angeles and long beach have gone on strike. the workers are protesting three large firms for classifying them as independent contractors instead of as employees will stop workers say this has allow the companies to impose long hours for low pay, docked paychecks for expenses, and avoid offering workplace protections. the two ports handle nearly half of all u.s. cargo. the workers have vowed to stay off the job for as long as it takes, making it one of the few open-ended u.s. strikes in recent years. on wednesday, rage against the machine joined the striking workers on the picket line to perform a few songs. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. >> welcome to all our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world.

we begin today's show looking at indonesia's hotly contested residents election. a quick town shows joko widodo has a several point lead over former army general prabowo subianto. but prabowo has refused to concede defeat. official results won't be known until after july 20. on wednesday, both candidates addressed the respective supporters and claimed a mandate to lead the nation. the fate of indonesia is decided by us. we want a better indonesia. we want all indonesians to be healthy. we want our people to be educated. we want our people to be civilized. >> we are thankful that all the data showed that we, the candidate team number one, prabowo subianto, have received the support a mandate from the people of indonesia. american investigative journalist allan nairn recently

reported indonesian forces tied to prabowo have waged a campaign to rig the election if it -- in his favor, including ballot tampering, street violence, and threats against rivals. by the u.s.,ned has been accused of mass killings when he headed the indonesian special forces in the 1990's. his reporting on prabowo became a major issue in the campaign and prabowo has filed criminal charges against allan nairn, including inciting hatred against the indonesian military. indonesia's presidential vote will mark its first ever transfer power from one elected leader to another. for more, we go to indonesia where we're joined by allan nairn. welcome back to democracy now! we are talking about the world's largest muslim nation. can you talk about the significance of what at least the quick count indicates, the , thery over prabowo indonesian general? >> well, i think this is a historic day.

-- prospect of fasteners and fascism has been turn back. general prabowo, but all caps has lost, although has yet conceded, is a masculine. for years he worked for the government of the united states. his call for abolition. used fascism and dictatorship as he was talking to me. [indiscernible] but he almost won. victoryn the verge of because of lots of money behind of the covert operation he launched easing the states on special forces illegally to try to fix the election. and because he ran on a platform that was the opposite [indiscernible]

he worked for the u.s. defense intelligence agency. a turning have been point that led back to the deep oppression, rollback of freedom of speech [indiscernible] and those who dare to stand up against the army and the police. real danger just 24 hours ago. i think it is dissipating. now i think in tunisia will be on a road where real progress is necessary. -- now i think indonesia will be on a road where real progress is necessary. mightidodo not respon

respond positively. >> during one of his last official campaign rallies in west java, presidential candidate prabowo subianto vowed to prevent indonesia from turning into a kleptocracy. >> we are democracy. democracy is people power. but there's some would change it into a kleptocracy. receiving or means stealing. so the thief wants to be in power. >> that was prabowo talking in west java. allan nairn, your response? thieves weremain on prabowo plus ticket. the most notorious oligarchs were backing him.

[indiscernible] good public speaker. that is one reason why get a chance to win. why he was on the verge of victory. in the end, enough people came out and stood up and, by all accounts, the general has been turned back. >> can you explain who joko widodo is? >> he is a civilian. he is a political phenomenon. he came to prominence in the last year as governor of jakarta. he became famous because he went to speak to the court. in his style and manner of the court -- people will tell you, he talks like one of us. he seems to have a certain sincerity. it is remarkable, because as he comes out a very corrupt the legal system that is still dominated by the army, his

supporters include a number of the worst. there's a widely expected since that he is different. i agree with that. but unless there's a popular move and that puts pressure on joko widodo, there can't be progress. if there is, it is very unlikely he would respond by opening fire as the indonesian army has in the past and as prabowo undoubtedly would. respond byobably sitting down with people and saying, let's work something out. >> allan, what about the elections themselves that were carried out? what was the level of purchase a patient? were there any problems? can you explain the quick count versus an actual account that we will have to wait until july 20? >> the turnout was really high. people at grassroots are more

serious about politics in indonesia. [indiscernible] there was a real seriousness as people were walking to the polls. at the same time, the election was facing this covert operation. [indiscernible] it looks like it hasn't succeeded. >> we are having some trouble hearing you.

as we wrap up, if you could inmarize what has happened the revelations that you exposed in this last two weeks of this campaign against prabowo amount based on interview you did with , what, some decade ago, that you started to write about now and his response to those revelations? major issuebecame a in the campaign. i quoted him talking about ,ascism and dictatorship endorsing the massacres of the remote villages. of a revered figure, civilian, a muslim allic highly respected, and of these things, especially the insult of the former president became major issues in the campaign. the prabowo campaign attacked me. arrest.l for my

i said, go ahead. they backed down. because they got so much criticism for backing down [indiscernible] the final act of the campaign was to file criminal charges against me, for inciting hatred against the army. for whatever reason, prabowo narrowly lost and indonesian history is on a different path. >> allan nairn, thank you for being with us, reported from indonesia for years and exposing government killings of civilians. we will continue to follow-up on indonesia's presidential elections. the final results will be announced on july 20. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. when we come back, we go to glenn greenwald's latest exposé in the intercept, identified five prominent muslim americans

spied on by the national security agency and the f the i. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

thena tijoux performing in

democracy now! studios this week. we will be posting our interview with her including more songs at democracynow.org. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. report by the news website the intercept has identified five prominent muslim americans who were spied on by the national security agency. an nsa spreadsheet leaked by edward snowden shows nearly 7500 e-mail addresses monitored between 2002 and 2008. included in the spreadsheet are addresses that appear to belong to foreigners the government suspects of ties to al qaeda, along with americans accused of terrorist act to but he including anwar al-awlaki and samir khan, who were both killed by u.s. drone strike in 2011. but the list also includes the e-mail addresses of a former republican operative and one-time political candidate, a professor at rutgers university,

and the head of the largest muslim civil rights group in the country. what these figures all have in common is that their muslim americans. they appear to have been targeted to their muslim identities and ties to various muslim causes or individual cases involving muslims. but in total, the intercept identified five leading muslim american activists, attorneys, academics whose e-mail addresses were targeted for monitoring. none have ever been charged with a crime. ,n a video, nihad awad executive director of the council on american islamic relations, the country's largest muslim civil rights group, expounded -- responded to the spying on him. >> i was not aware of was under surveillance except until recently. and i'm outraged that is an american citizen, my government spies on political activists and civil rights activists.

it is outrageous and i'm really angry that despite all the work we have been doing in our communities to serve the nation, to serve our communities, we are treated with suspicion. our door has been opened for over 20 years. obviously,ent copy knows everything. they know perfectly well we are transparent from above the board american success story. they should celebrate our achievement as a civil rights organization that is willing to stand up when many people are silent. the pain andt suffering i'm going through when i feel i'm being surveilled in my communications, wherever i go -- here, abroad -- all that i

deal with is being scrutinized by the government. i don't feel free. i don't fill the freedom that other people enjoy in this country. i feel i am being targeted because of my religious identity and activities that are protected. i am broken. i have been doing whatever civil what everyer -- civil rights leader had to do for their community and the country. i don't compare myself to martin luther king, but he was surveilled. he was died on. president obama himself recognized this and he, i paraphrase said, had it not been the work from dr. martin luther king, he would not be where he is now the president. and yet the government spied on

dr. mark luther king. continue thed to legacy of defending the civil rights of people. i believe the government has not changed when it comes to civil rights organizations, activists, and leaders. i'm not surprised that, unfortunately, if a long way to go. if we do not speak up against the abuses of nsa surveillance, if we do not stop the abuse of targeting people because of their religious identity, if we do not stop this and speak against it, if we do not ask questions, it is just a matter of time until it comes to you as it has come to us. it is true. no one can deny that american muslims have been viewed with suspicion and have been treated as suspects. some american muslims happened

on the no-fly list for no obvious reason. we stood for these people. some people are being questioned about their faith, how many times they pray, which imam today follow, which mosque they frequent, how often they read the koran? these are questions asked sometimes to american muslims at the border. we protest these policies. apparently, we are paying the price for speaking up against, what i believe, are unconstitutional and un-american policies. >> nihad awad is executive director of the council on american islamic relations, or cair, the u.s.'s largest muslim civil rights organization. he has been a guest on democracy now! for more, we're joined by glenn greenwald, the pulitzer prize-winning journalist who broke the story. his newest story for the intercept is, "meet the muslim-american leaders the fbi and nsa have been spying on." his new book is, "no place to

hide: edward snowden, the nsa, and the u.s. surveillance state." a minute, we will speak with two of the muslim americans featured in his story. glenn, welcome back to democracy now! talk about how you discovered this and the significance of spying on muslim american leaders. >> there were several documents in the archives [indiscernible] we're going to have to interrupt. we can hardly hear you. we're going to try to clean up that line and we're going to go to our guests right now in washington as we do that. faisal gill, an attorney and former senior policy director at the department of homeland security him and asim ghafoor, the civil rights attorney who has represented clients in terrorism but it cases, previously sued the government for warrantless wiretapping. among the five prominent muslim americans who had their e-mail addresses monitored by the nsa.

youal gill, let's turn to first. you ran for the house to be a representative in the legislature in virginia. you are a republican lawyer. you work for the department of homeland security, had some of the highest clearance. can you explain when you found out or even suspected you were being targeted by the nsa? >> i did not find out i was suspected by the nsa until i spoke to glenn. glenn called me. i met with him in new york and that was the first time i found out that i was targeted by the nsa. before that, he wasn't even a thought in my mind that i could be suspected of any sort of wrongdoing or would be surveilled or would be monitored at all. >> of course, the government has often said that the surveillance is limited and if you have

nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about. what is your response to that? we'rethat is the criteria going to use, then we need to throw out the entire fourth amendment. our entire justice system is premised on not whether someone has something to hide, but whether law enforcement has probable cause. under regular criminal law, what you have is the police go in anhout a warrant or without effective warrant, they go in and even find evidence of crimes, those evidence are thrown out, even if they find evidence of a crime because under our constitution, the right to privacy exists and under the constitution the question is, not whether you have something to hide or not, but whether law enforcement has a reasonable expectation or reasonable suspicion to believe you have committed a crime. so i think saying that is ridiculous. yourisal gill, talk about

work experience. i mean, this monitoring started under the bush administration. you were working for george w. bush. >> yes, i was working for president bush, worked at the department of homeland security. i was not involved in monitoring, so i was never involved in fisa warrants or anything of that sort. so i would not know that. i understand after 9/11, i understand there is a need for surveillance and the program needs to expand. i also understand there will be times when you might have a reasonable suspicion for someone that you might have to be suspect may be committed a crime or maybe is involved in terrorist activities that after you monitor them, you find out, ok, no, they're not involved in any of those activities. but they're still has to be some suspicion. there has to be some activity that would lead someone to believe that, ok, this person is

involved. there's nothing in my background that would lead anybody to believe that. i've never had any connection with any terrorist groups or been involved -- i have passed polygraphs stating such. that is what is more troubling to me, that there is no reasonable suspicion or probable cause to suspect the of these activities. >> we have glenn greenwald back with us on the line from rio de janeiro, brazil. glenn from the start again by talking about how you found out this information. >> there were many documents in the archive which pertain to nsa and fbi targeting of americans on u.s. soil. one of the most interesting of which was the spreadsheet called pfizer recapped from 2000 and that listed roughly 7000 e-mails , at least 700 of which were american citizens. we began the arduous task of trying to determine the identity of the people using those e-mail the dresses. and most of the cases, it was quite difficult, if not impossible. in some of the cases, we were

able to find who these people were using these e-mail addresses. americansbe 20 or so without we should report on and narrowed it down to 5 based on a variety of factors based on who was willing to be identified publicly as a surveillance target. any were afraid of this stigma for the career and reputation forever. another big factor was making sure we were reporting on people who clearly led very law-abiding lives. once we could determine their identity and they were going on record, we began reporting on how to were spied on and what possible rationale the government might have had. we found the only thing they really had in common is their all politically active american muslims who in some form or another have expressed criticism of the u.s. government or just been politically active in their communities and in the nation.

that seems to be sufficient for them to render them suspicious. >> since the file was labeled pfizer recap, were there any indications these were all surveillance done pursuant to fisa warrants? worde nsa and fbi used the "pfizer" and a broadway, pretty much to mean any kind of authority they had to surveil. at all getting a specific warrant from the fisa court. during the three months we were reporting, the nsa was urging us not to publish any of their targets and were telling us the reason or one reason was because [indiscernible] nsassumed based on what the said that all of the surveillance was done pursuant to individual pfizer warns. as we were about to publish last week, the justice department sources began telling other media outlets that in fact they did not have pfizer warns for at

least one of the people we were naming, the executive director of cair, nihad awad, and possibly others. so we don't actually know what they got specific pfizer warns or general pfizer warns for all or any of these -- specific pfizer warns or general fisa warrants. fbi declined to be on the show. but the nsa sent a joint statement from the office of the director of national intelligence and the department of justice, which reads --

your response, glenn greenwald? >> first of all, i find it fascinating with a basically conceded there were not denying that they take into account people's political activism and political views when deciding who should be surveilled. they're saying, we don't base our decisions solely on those criteria. but i think it is clear based on that statement and reporting that we did it in the article, people's political opinions and with express and the nature and expense of their political activism is a significant factor in deciding who their surveillance targets are, which is incredibly disturbing. these are american citizens who are guaranteed a right to engage in the political expression and activism and it is clearly being

used as grounds for surveillance. the second issue i would add, although we don't know they've been targeted pursuant to a fisa court warranted because prior to the it doesn't it law, the government could target americans, for example, if they were on foreign soil despite getting the attorney general to ok it. even if they got fisa court approval, everybody knows the fisa court is it firstly a rubberstamping tribunal -- notoriously a rubberstamping tribunal. fisa court,s of the they ever prove something like 35,000 government request and rejected a grand total of 12. we had a source who said, you just show up at a fisa court judges house and if he knows you and likes to, he will sign whatever war and you put in front of him. -- warrant you put in front of him. glenn, i would ask about the document you highlight in your

report that instructs personnel how to format internal memos to justify fisa surveillance. in the plays were the targets real name would go, the memo offers the fake name mohammed raghead as a placeholder. the nsa issued a statement in response saying it -- your response? critical point. this is critical context understand reporting. that document where we found used the slur as a sample of who they would get a fisa warrant against is by no means the only evidence of rampant bigotry and anti-islamic prejudice. there was a story by spencer ackerman in 2011 that found huge

numbers of training material in the fbi instructed them to view even moderate law-abiding muslims as serious national security threats. they said they apologized and would revamp the program. if you look at what the surveillance targets have in common, one thing is they became the obsessive focus of some of the furthest right-wing neoconservative, fringes.im they became obsessed with faisal gill money was running for office. there've long been obsessed with cair. what you see from this evidence, these radicals, anti-muslim radicals in the united states have enough of a foothold within the intelligence community to be able to use these mass surveillance weapons that we spent the last are documenting to further their work and bigotry-driven political agenda. to go back to that stemming you asked me, it is referenceable

what they're doing. on one hand they're saying, we won't in any way comment on why these people were surveilled and on the other hand, saying we would only surveil people if their agents of it terrorist organization or foreign power and have done something that constitutes espionage or terrorism. at thee smearing all same time preventing them from addressing what it is that they supposedly did that merited the surveillance. the only public evidence we have based on these documents and history of the nsa is that they muslims asmerican being inherently suspicious and .orthy of surveillance it is the same as the 1960's and 1970's, when civil rights bidders or antiwar leaders, were similarly regarded as threatening as they exercise their political rights and were also subjected to surveillance.

>> i want to bring in asim ghafoor on this issue, the civil rights attorney. you actually learned you are being surveilled even before the glenn greenwald articles came out years ago. could you talk about that? >> yes, sir. oregon, a charity and that was under investigation by the u.s. treasury department, a group of lawyers were given a four pagescuments, of which i still cannot talk about today because of warnings from the government they would prosecute if i did, but has publicly been reported those four pages are summary of conversations from overseas individuals with myself, my fellow lawyers, and other staff here in the u.s. about a legal strategy on how to get delisted from treasury designation. it wasn't exactly terrorism. it was a group of people who were falsely accused of terrorism who were trying to hire a lawyer and use the civil justice system soon the treasury

department, suing the office of other organizations or agencies in the u.s. that investigation ended up freezing the assets of the u.s. charity, jailing the leader for years, and freezing the assets of several individuals overseas. this was evidence of the government not only doing are conducting warrantless surveillance, but using that information to cause a very unjustified legal distress. ironically in that case, we sued and were found to have standing in the case went on from 2006 until 2012 until the ninth circuit court of appeals reversed it on a technicality saying under this section 1810 that we did of the original fisa which was amended in 2008, while we had standing and were able to prove we were surveilled without a warrant, the government had

immunity on use of that information, so we cannot collect damages. it was a tech now the -- technicality. it is one thing that will hurt us in trying to pursue any legal remedies on this new set of wiretapping's, although, as a lawyer in my fellow counsel from brazil here next to me in the studio knows, there's always an opportunity to find another way to bring a lawsuit. >> asim ghafoor and faisal gill as well as glenn greenwald, we're going to take a break. the significance of your case, among other things, asim ghafoor , is that you are talking about whatever the case was, you were being surveilled, monitored, your e-mail was being read as you represented clients. i want to ask about this issue of client-attorney privileged among many other things. we are talking to the muslim american leaders, the fbi and nsa have been spying on. glenn greenwald, the

prize-winning journalist exposes it in the intercept. we will be back with them in a moment. ♪ [music break]

>> this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. we're joined by pulitzer prize-winning journalist glenn greenwald who is just broken the story the intercept called, "meet the muslim-american leaders the fbi and nsa have been spying on." were also joined by two of the subjects of that, faisal gill who worked in the george w. bush administration who served as an intelligence policy adviser in the department of homeland security where he was authorized to access sensitive information,

classification level reserved for the most closely guarded secrets. >> the nsa began mark -- monitoring his e-mails in 2006 after he left the department of homeland security and cofounded a law firm with our other guest, asim ghafoor, a prominent civil rights attorney who has represented clients in terrorism related cases. he is also worked insensibly on capitol hill as a legislative assistant and a lobbyist and the time he was being monitored by the nsa, he was already suing the government after an accidental leak revealed warrantless eavesdropping on his phone calls with his clients. he was awarded more than $20,000 in damages, but the judgment was later reversed. asim ghafoor, your feelings when you learned what was taking place in this call that you got from the intercept about these documents? unbelievablewas will stop in 2004, it was

unbelievable, and in 2014, 10 years later, even more unbelievable. when the editor called me and told me very quick to we, we have an e-mail address committee confirm your identity? can you mail me an e-mail from their? i do not know who that was. i was worried for about 10 seconds before i googled it and realized the editor was the real thing. two of mr. greenwald's colleagues. it just became like alice in wonderland all over again. this is something where as a lawyer, as a civil rights lawyer who advises people who come to me for compliance issues when they're somewhat in trouble with the government or in big trouble with the government. i really have to be careful on how i communicate with them. i'm happy to maintain a reasonable expectation of privacy, ethics tell us you have to be discreet with what you say

on the phone, e-mail. but to think the government was listening in on it was really a shock to me. i think it is a disservice to all lawyers, whether we are muslim american lawyers who worked on capitol hill like me -- i had sent friends in the previous white house, even though i'm a lifelong democrat. it is a shock to think a government lawyer, a government agent, most of whom are very professional, wake up, do their jobs to serve america, to push the limit and go to the supervisors, to go to a judge and say, we need to listen to this guy -- again. it makes no sense. if it was because i was winning the case against them in 2005 and the decided, you know what? we are going to listen in on this guy. again, i said this before and i'll say it again, if a lawyer were to go in court,, with evidence they got from reading

my evidence to my clients were cocounsel, paralegal, to anyone idea with on a legal basis, day-to-day basis, a judge would blast them out of court. what made a lawyer or agent or someone in the government think they could even use this information, to me, that is just baffling. >> glenn greenwald, your report covers 2002-2008. is there any indication the people targeted during that period, did that stop after 2008 at all or just didn't have further documentation of what happened after that? >> right, the document we have is from 2008. we have one from 2007 as well. of thes like the format document changed once the law changed in 2008. there's is zero reason to think this has stopped. some of the surveillance talked about in the case termination

dates and other say sustained, meaning it is ongoing. there's is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe were claim or anything like that has stopped after 2008. "the washington post" reported about 90% of the collections without being on target, they said the obama administration dramatically expanded the amount placeveillance that takes both internationally and domestically. so we don't have to predict continued beyond that, but the documents to say sustained for some of the surveillance. the me quickly add one thing about asim ghafoor's case. when the 2004 case first surfaced, what we knew was his calls to clients have been monitored. i don't think we knew he was the target. it could've been his clients were the target and then listened in anyway knowing it was attorney-client communication. it wasn't his clients e-mail addresses, but his that were on the nsa and fbi hot list.

i think that has escalated the nature of the revelation. >> you postponed the release of this piece, glenn greenwald, for over a week. why? earlier, for several months it was believed that love the spying was done pursuant to -- that all of the spying was done pursuant to fisa warrants. [indiscernible] we wrote the story on the premise it was done under the fisa court does that is what we were led to believe. literally hours before we were to hit the publish button, one of our partners talk to fairly high-level sources of the justice department and fbi who told them in fact they did not againstindividual fisa nihad awad and we did not want to push jack dorsey with which we were uncertain so we said, let's hold the story and investigate this.

now there is uncertainty, so we made sure we have the story 100% right. >> what did you ultimately conclude? >> we went back to the nsa and said to them, for months you have been saying this has been under the fisa court and now you have the justice department, anonymous people in the justice department supposedly saying you don't have it. they said, we can't play with the said and what, specifically on any of these cases. based on all of the information we were able to get, it seems like really is part of the 2000 and law, they had other theories internally about how they could spy on americans without fisa warrants. we don't actually know whether they did have fisa warrants against all of these individuals. i really think the obama administration needs to answer that question. >> faisal gill, given these revelations and given the constant reporting of the

unbridled surveillance of our government on american citizens, what do you think needs to be done? what would you hope that congress would do at this stage? >> i think congress needs to step up and exercise oversight authority over the intelligence community. the biggest thing that came out of this is, if the department of justice and the nsa statements are correct, then the fisa process and what constitutes probable cause is to be seriously examined. in our cases, i don't think there is probable cale cause. it is ridiculous to think in this case the reciprocable cause or in my case or asim's case. the entire system needs to be examined. mentioned, the fisa court is a rubber stamp. you cannot have that in cases like this. you paint summit with a broad brush, and there tainted for life. i know from personal experience in a happened to me before and

now as well, this is going to change you. nobody wants a lawyer that the government suspects is involved in these kinds of activities. you get a statement from the government that basically backs up the fact that they believe you're involved in this kind of activities, which is exactly the justicefrom department and nsa. congress really needs to examine the fisa court and put in some safe arts in place and make sure it is not a rubber stamp. it does have real life implications. and youo any county look at the success rate for getting a search warrant for a crime such as breaking and entering or any other crime, even of petty crime, you're not going to find an and a 9.9% success rate for the search -- you're not going to find a 99.9% success rate for those searches. i think the visor court should be held to a little bit of a higher standard. we want to make sure anyone we are targeting or surveilling without their knowledge, listening to their e-mails,

there are people who really are suspected of being involved and engaged in these types of activities. the reason we believe that is because we have some credible evidence and we just need to listen to them to basically either get more evidence we can use in court or to prosecute them or stop them from whatever they're trying to do. >> i want to interrupt because we just have a few seconds. in both your cases, are you planning to sue the government now for surveillance? >> if i can answer that first, i have no plans to sue the government right now. i believe the remedy is with congress, with oversight, any administration in the right thing with the budget. but i will keep my options open. we have a few years before statute of limitations runs out. >> faisal gill? >> not at this time. i would like congress to step up and exercise oversight authority. >> thank you all for being with us, faisal gill, attorney and former senior policy director of the department of homeland security come allegedly targeted by the nsa. thank you to asim ghafoor,

promise overwrites attorney. glenn greenwald, thank you for being with us, pulitzer prize-winning journalist. his latest stories at the intercept. we will link to it, "meet the muslim-american leaders the fbi and nsa have been spying on." democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democ

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