[captioning made possible by democracy now!] isfrom pacifica, this "democracy now!" targetedi authorize airstrikes to protect our personnel and a humanitarian effort to save thousands of iraqi civilians were trapped on a mountain without food, water, and facing almost certain death. >> is an obama becomes the fourth u.s. president in a row to authorize amateur action in

iraq as islamist militants seize more -- territory. the u.s. has already begun airdrops to a mountain in northwest iraq where 40,000 people, many religious minorities, are trapped. we will go to iraq for the latest and speak to phyllis bennis. gaza ise cease-fire in over and fighting resumes after talks between israel and palestinian officials and without a long-term deal. of refusingd israel to accept its key a man of missing the blockade. we will go to tel aviv to speak to reaffirming -- uri averny. all that and more coming up. ,"lcome to "democracy now!, democracy now dot org, the war and peace report. i am amy goodman. has authorized airstrikes in iraq to halt the sweeping advance of militants now known as the islamic state.

the group has captured large swathes of northern iraq, including the country's largest dam near mosul, and its largest christian town. the militants have advanced to a half hour drive from the kurdish regional capital, air vo, where the united states has a consulate and military personnel. -- united states military the united states has also begun rubbing really supplies to iraqis forced to flee their homes. about 40,000 numbers of the yazidi religious minority remain on mount sinjar near the border with syria. obama said airstrikes may be needed to halt what he said was a potential genocide. >> when we have the unique capabilities to help avert a massacre, i believe the united states of america cannot turn a blind eye. weekend act -- we can act carefully a response bleacher prevent a potential genocide. fighting has resumed in gaza

after the expiration of a 72-hour cease-fire. israel said it launched airstrikes after palestinians resumed rocket fire. palestinian officials say a 10-year-old boy was killed earlier today when an israeli airstrike hit near a mosque in gaza city. six people were wounded. ofamas rejected an extension the three-day cease-fire saying that israel had failed to meet a key palestinian demand to tease the crippling blockade of gaza. the month-long israeli offenses has killed nearly 1900 palestinians, most of them civilians, or than 400 of them children. israel says 64 of its soldiers have been killed along with three civilians. an author and professor has reportedly lost his job after publicly criticizing the israeli siege of gaza. -- stepheny to soledad is the author of "israel's dead soul" and a contributor to outlets including electronic intifada. after posting a series of tweets

critical of israel, he was reportedly told he would no longer have a job at the university of illinois at urbana-champaign. he was due to start work there in the american indian studies program this month. the american association of university professors expressed concern saying "whether one finds these views attractive or repulsive is irrelevant to the right of a faculty member to express them. not -- more than 10,000 people have signed a petition for his reinstatement. the world health organization has declared the record outbreak of the deadly ebola virus an international public health emergency. and sierra leone have deployed soldiers to blockade hard-hit areas and liberia's foreign minister told the thomson reuters foundation "the health care system is collapsing." have been infections in liberia, sierra leone, and guinea, with several in nigeria.

states, thomas frieden, the head of the centers for disease control and prevention, told congress he has activated the agency's highest level of response. >> it is unprecedented in 5 different ways. first, it is the largest ever.ak in fact, at the current trend, within another few weeks there will have been more cases in this outbreak than in all previous recognized outbreaks of ebola put together. >> secretary of state john kerry is in afghanistan today for a second round of talks in the country's disputed presidential election. kerry is asking both candidates to accept a monitors or candidate can be in place before an upcoming nato meeting next month. the obama administration resumed talks with iran thursday over iran's disputed nuclear program. state department spokesperson marie harf called the discussions constructive and said that meetings on the issue would continue. newly leaked documents show a

german spying company that provides technology to governments around the world helped bahrain spy on its citizens during a crackdown on pro-democracy protests. analyzing documents released by a hacker this week, the news site the intercept reports that the company, finfisher, helped onrain install spyware dozens of computers including those of human rights lawyers and an opposition leader who is now in prison. president obama signed a bill to address the crisis in veterans health care. the bill will expand staffing and allow veterans facing lengthy commutes or wait times to seek private medical care. in michigan, a jury has reached a verdict in the killing of the unarmed african-american 19-year-old renisha mcbride. theodore wafer has been convicted of second-degree murder and manslaughter for shooting mcbride on the porch of his detroit area home last november. mcbride was apparently seeking help after a car crash when wafer shot her in the face through his screen door.

he claimed he feared for his life. the killing sparked mass protests as positivistic about 2 weeks to file charges against wafer. he now faces life in prison. responding to the verdict, saysde's mother, monica, justice has been served. >> justice needs to be served. you did cold-blooded murder. that was no accident. >> hawaii is bracing for a rare double threat from a tropical storm and hurricane set to hit within days of each other. thousands have already lost power from tropical storm iselle, with hurricane julio expected this weekend or early next week. the last time a hurricane or tropical storm hit boy he was 22 years ago -- hit hawaii was 22 years ago. climate models have pretty did hawaii will see an increase in such storms as a result of

global warming. in canada, first nations leaders are calling for immediate action to clean up a massive spill at a copper and gold mine, saying it is one of the columbia's worst environmental disasters. the rupture of a tailings pond at imperial metals not polley mine spilled more than billion gallons of silt laden with waterways. area wrot argentina has taken steps to sue the united states at the international court of justice over a debt dispute that sent argentina into default. to the court, argentina it accuses u.s. courts of violating its sovereignty by siding with vulture funds led by billionaire paul singer. the hedge funds have demanded full repayment after buying argentina's debt for bargain prices after its financial crisis. the lawsuit would only go forward if the u.s. accepts the human courts jurisdiction. argentine president cristina fernandez de kirchener spoke thursday.

this is not an action against the country. it simply means that dependent powers or employees of the country have provoked damage or acted outside the law, considering the expressions and resolutions of a municipal judge who wants to travel sovereignty. incumbentessee, senator lamar alexander has defeated a tea party challenger in the state republican primary. scott desjarlais defeated his challenger by only about 35 votes with all precincts reporting. desjarlais made national headlines in 2012 after it emerged the antitrust legislator had pressured his mistress to to have an abortion. "the new york times" has ended its long-standing policy of avoiding the word "torture" to describe the cia's use of waterboarding and other techniques under its interrogation program.

the justice department has denied the cia's actions met the legal definition of torture, but on thursday am a "new york times" executive order deena k wrote that since no one is facing prosecution, the current debate is less about the legal terms and more about whether the techniques were effective. "so from now on, the times will 'to the word 'torture describe incidents in which we know for sure that interrogators inflicted pain on a prisoner or an effort to get information." >> i am amy goodman. >> i am juan gonzalez. we turn now to iraq. president obama authorized airstrikes in an attempt to halt the sweeping advance by fighters from the militant group now known as the islamic state. obama becomes the fourth u.s. president in a row to order military action in iraq. the islamic state has captured large swathes of northern iraq

and has advanced to more than half hour drive from the kurdish regional capital, erbil. >> up to 40,000 people, many of them immerse of the yazidi religious minority, it remain trapped in the sinjar mountains near the border with syria, surrounded by iraqi rebels and slowly dying of thirst. united states has already begun dropping relief supplies, but speaking last night, president obama said airstrikes may the needed to halt what he said had become a potential genocide. >> when we face a situation like we do on a mountain, with innocent people facing the prospect of violence on a horrific scale, we have a mandate to help -- in this case, a request from the iraq the government, and when we have the unique capabilities to help avert a massacre, i believe the united states of america cannot turn a blind eye. we can act, carefully and responsibly, to prevent a potential act of genocide. it is what we are doing on that

mountain. i have therefore authorized targeted airstrikes if necessary to help forces in iraq fight to break the siege from mount sinjar and protect civilians trapped there. already american aircraft has begun conducting humanitarian airdrops of food and water to help these desperate and, women, and children survive. earlier this week, one iraq he in the area cried to the world "there is no one coming to help." well, today america's coming to help. we are also consulting with other countries and the united nations, well call for action to address this you monetary crisis. >> some members of the yazidi budget to turkey have described a dire situation in the sinjar mountains. >> we have gone through a lot at sinjar mountains. children -- women and are being killed. i have 4 children and i don't know there were about. 2 have disappeared and i don't

know about the other 2. >> the president -- residents of the kurdish capital of erbil are fearing fighters from the islamic state may soon attack the city. this is resident mahmoud you see if -- yousif. >> we are afraid that something bad will happen and supplies will run out. we are afraid because the political and militant situation could as percussion, we bought , and uses, meat quantities of canned foods come out of fear something bad will happen, god for bid. towe go now to northern iraq speak with tracey shelton, freelance journalist covering iraq, syria, libya, and conflict zones throughout the middle east. her recent piece for "global post" is called "there are reports of the islamic state executing dozens of yazidis." can you tell us about the

situation and who the yazidis are? in a density region -- yazidi region and -- [indiscernible] >> we are having trouble understanding you. can you speak directly into your phone? >> yes. i am, actually. is that better? >> slightly. >> ok. listen, we are going to try to reconnect with you to get a better phone line. if you hang up we will do that. in the meantime we will go to phyllis bennis in washington, d c, fellow at the institute for policy studies. she has written a number of books, including "ending the iraq war." one of her recent pieces is

headlined "don't go back to iraq -- five steps the u.s. can take in iraq without going back to war." i am wondering your response to president obama announcing there will be possible airstrikes in iraq both because of what is happening on sinjar mountain and because americans are threatened in erbil. >> thanks, amy. there is no question that the people, particularly those exposed on sinjar mountain, are at great risk. there is a terrible situation for civilians in the region. having said that, the question of u.s. airstrikes is almost certainly going to make things worse and not better. this should in the lesson we learned from a president obama called the dome war. he admitted this time around there is no american military solution. and yet he is authorizing american military action. it doesn't make any sense. there's no logic to it.

the notion that there is going to be a need for airstrikes to protect the few dozen u.s. diplomats and a couple hundred military people in erbil is widely understood as a legal state away from reality. this is what allows the president in his mine, apparently, to use force without consulting congress. we did not hear anything about his understanding of the war powers act, his understanding of obligations to consult with congress. there were reports early yesterday afternoon that there had been convocations between the white house and cap -- complications between the white house and congress. there have been no details about what the consultation was about. this is simply the white house making the announcement that they may be about to go back to war. president obama indicated that he is aware of the widespread antiwar sentiment. i think the last polls indicated it was between 78 and 82% of

people in the united states who are absolutely opposed to going back to iraq militarily. the notion that we are uniquely uniquely- we are not capable. the united nations even before this move by president obama had authored the iraq he government technical help to carry out real humanitarian airlift to the people stuck on the mountain in sinjar mountain. the u.s. history of linking airdrops of food and water with bombing raids is not a good one. if we look back to the last time this happened, it was in november 2001 in afghanistan. you had the united states simultaneously dropping food mre's, meals ready-to-eat -- wrapped in bright yellow lasted that made them easy to spot.

they were being dropped to afghan refugees who were fleeing the u.s. bombing of the city. at the same time, the u.s. was dropping cluster bombs that happened to be made with bright yellow plastic of exactly the same color. no one knows how many children in particular were killed running to what they thought were food packages that turned out to be cluster bombs. this is not a safe way to carry out a humanitarian operation. , as we mentioned, 4 presidents now, a quarter of a century now that the united states has been involved in some sort of military conflict connected to iraq, beginning with the first president bush teaching back -- beating back kuwait, invasion of then 10 years of no-fly zones, then the invasion by the second george bush, then this latest reversal of his own policy by president obama.

if there is a definition of a quagmire, this is it. your sense of why this continues for essentially a generation? are a know, juan, there number of reasons. you are actually right, this is a slippery slope waiting to happen. there are a number of reasons, both at the immediate level and the longer-term level. at the longer-term level iraq is still what it has always been for the u.s., a key point in terms of oil, a key point in terms of the strategic location of iraq, the point from which there can be strategic reach, during military attacks on africa come in europe, asia, iraq, and the middle east, standing at the intersection of three continents. some of it had to do with the threat of the hapless government in baghdad backed by the united states, despite its acknowledgment that maliki is

responsible for huge problems in iraq. he is widely viewed as responsible for the rise in sectarianism in iraq because of the sectarianism in his own government. the fact that they could lose control of one of the 2 key dams in iraq -- the question of water in this region remains key. that was part of the immediate crisis that was underway. is a situation where there was a huge set of dangers in the region. there is no question that in iraq, any u.s. military attack is going to be widely viewed as being in support of the incredibly corrupt, unpopular government of nuri almonte -- aliki.al-m today is supposed to be the deadline for parliament to choose a new prime minister. maliki is under enormous pressure from parliament to step

down. so far he has refused to do that and the u.s. has said, oh, we are not going to take a position on who should be prime minister of iraq, although we think there should be an inclusive government. maliki has made clear that his government is a sectarian shiites inempowering iraq to the exclusion of sunnis, s, and others in iraq. it seems like there is no way maliki is going to step down now. people in and around iraq are talking about the fact that the sunni tribes will be prepared to move against the islamic state. once they are clear that there is a government in baghdad that is not a secure income and in its own right -- sectarian government in its own right. people welcome the islamic state not because they agree with them. they have been horrific in

social terms in these communities. the they were welcomed by sunnis precisely because they represented an alternative to what was seen as the worst situation, being under the domination of the sectarian government in baghdad. withole of the u.s. now increasing military involvement back in iraq, is going to put the u.s. in a situation where it is widely going to be blamed for the continued rise of sectarianism in the region more broadly as going to be pointing out what hypocrisy it is, where the united states is arming israel to kill palestinians in gaza, the language the president obama used that there are innocent people facing violations on a massive scale, that describes the situation of palestinian civilians in gaza, and yet rather than

providing humanitarian aid and demanding that israel -- theel opened the gates, united states is sending more weapons and more money to buy more weapons and more ammunition for those israeli attacks. the question of how the u.s. is going to be blamed for this is even wider because of the simultaneous crisis underway in gaza. onphyllis, i want to touch gaza with you and the end of the cease-fire. but on the issue that the president raised, one was the humanitarian airdrops. the other was saving americans in erbil. the military advisors and the u.s. workers who are there. the other possibility is to move them. >> exactly. if there was so much concern about these 40 or so diplomats and the other military advisors, i'm not quite sure that they are as threatened as some reports have indicated, but if there was that concern, that is a

completely doable thing to get them onto helicopters and move them out. rationale.alse it is being used because both at the public level and for the obama administration, their understanding of how they can use the limitations on acting unilaterally without consulting congress is shaped by the notion that american lives are at stake. if american lives are at stake on an emergency basis, it is possible under some circumstances for the president to move. in this situation there has not been a move yet. there is not that level of urgency. this is not a situation where there are not cell phones, where members of congress cannot be called back to washington if necessary. they can be on a conference call. technology makes many things available. we should let the white house know that. they seem to have forgotten. but if this is really so dangerous for those couple hundred people, put them on a plane and get them out. that is not a problem. >> phyllis, what about this

issue of the threat to erbil? we are talking about a kurdish region that was relatively peaceful compared to the rest of , and supposedly had a military force that was quite capable, yet isis has rolled back the kurdish forces as well. >> that's right, juan, except isis is not operating alone. it is a small operation of somewhere around 10,000 fighters. they are good fighters, well armed with u.s.-supplied equipment that they have picked up all over iraq, exactly what the danger is if the u.s. decides to send more weapons to syria. but they have overcome the kurdish fighters, kashmir, only in one area, the area near the a, only in oneg

area, the area near the dam. one of the reasons they appear so strong is they are backed by military support from former generals, former strategists, former leaders of the fastest army inof the baathist iraq who lost their positions and their ability to protect their families in many occasions at the time of the invasion in 2003 and have been waiting for an opportunity to challenge the u.s.-backed government in baghdad. they also have support in many areas of the sunni tribal leaders and their militias. right now they are not fighting in a massive scale. they pulled back but there is every indication out that if there were a change in baghdad, the government, the tribes would rise again against isis and i would place the tribal militias as well as the -- that would

place the tribal mushers as well as the other forces of pesh merga against the former baathists. it is ugly sectarianism that was put in place by the u.s. invasion of iraq in 2003. all of this can be traced back to that. is important that we not see this as the magic of the islamist organization. they are powerful because one, they have good weapons that are made in the u.s., and a 2, they have leadership and military capacity strengthened by the village-- baathist where forces that remain in iraq. >> finally, back to gaza, the , can you talk about

the breakdown of the talks in cairo? >> many of us were very much afraid, amy, that this whole -- this halt in the fighting, the cease-fire come even if it lasted three days, which it rarely did, by moments, was not going to work unless the siege of gaza could be lifted. there is no way that there is going to be a permanent cease-fire while gaza remains completely surrounded by a wall that remains backed by an armed force of the israeli military, while the waters are controlled by the israeli navy who prevented the freshman from going more than two kilometers , when israel can bomb the power plants and the sewage treatment plants and expect people to cynthia stop fighting and wait for negotiations, as if

-- simply stop fighting and wait for negotiations, as if that is going to work. i saw this after the eight-day israeli assault on gaza in 2012, when the cease-fire negotiated by hillary clinton at the time said that within 24 hours of the cease-fire they should begin implementation of lifting the siege. it never happened. not surprisingly, palestinians -- not only hamas, but across the board from every political faction, and, we should know, the united nations, are calling very clearly for an end to the siege of gaza. without that, no temporary cease-fire is going to work. >> phyllis, i want to thank you for being with us. phyllis bennis, fellow at the institute for policy studies. she has written many books, including "ending the war." one of her recent pieces is "don't go back to iraq." this is "democracy now!" back in a moment.

,"is is "democracy now! democracy now dot org, the war and peace report. i am amy goodman, here with juan gonzalez. >> israel said it launched airstrikes after hamas fired 18 rockets into southern israel after the cease-fire ended. augustinian officials say a 10-year-old boy was killed earlier today -- palestinian officials say a 10-year-old boy was killed earlier today. six other people were wounded in the attack. hamas rejected an extension of the 72 hour cease-fire, saying that israel had failed to meet a key palestinian demand to ease the crippling blockade of gaza. a hamas military wing spokesman earlier called on palestinian negotiators holding indirect talks with israel he ago shaders in cairo to refuse any

cease-fire extension unless its long-term demands were met. this is abu ubaida. >> we urge the palestinian negotiation -- delegation not to extend the cease-fire deal unless they meet the demands of our people, foremost the seaport. >> israel's 29 day offensive in gaza killed nearly 1900 people, including at least 1354 civilians, 415 of them children. half a million palestinians have 180 displaced, at least 7000 still living in u.n. emergency shelters. 10,000 homes have been completely destroyed, 30,000 partially wrecked. 64 israeli soldiers were killed in gaza, three civilians died in israel. >> to talk more about the situation in israel and tel aviv, we go to where we are joined by uri av nery, an israeli journalist and

writer. he is a former member of the knesset and the founder of the future shalom peace movement. he writes a weekly column in several countries and is the author of many books including " tale," soldier's "israel's vicious circle," and "my friend, the enemy." can you talk about the end of the cease-fire and what this means? >> i think everybody's really sad about it because we all hoped that the war had ended. on, and ifs going there's no new cease-fire, it will get worse on both sides. , israel toisrael says it was hamas broke the cease-fire for

shooting rockets into israel. can you respond? answer.is very easy to was in forcee until 8:00 this morning. no one broke it. it was just not renewed. have been a long time founder and nader of the peace movement -- founder and leader of the peace movement in israel. what is the state of the peace movement in your country right now? , it is veryany war difficult to talk about peace. hysteria.creates more patrioticome super and they don't want to hear any criticism of their government, of their country.

it is a bad situation. but there are demonstrations against the war going on every day. morrow evening, saturday evening, there will be a very big demonstration in the center of tel aviv. the peace movement is not silent. thatu have a long history goes, to say the least., before the astonishment of the state of israel. you were born in germany and fled nazi germany with your family. the irgun andbout stern gang in paris-state israel, what you were doing there, and what -- in pre-state israel, what you are doing there, and what these organizations did? >> well, dealing with day

today occurrences, but not dealing with the root of the matter. the root is that israel is occupying the palestinian territories, the territory of the west bank, territory of the .aza strip as long as the occupation lasts, there will be no peace. in order to put an end to the occupation, you must make peace, peace between israel and the palestinian people, in order to achieve peace with palestinian thele, israel must end occupation, withdraw from occupied territories, and enable ownstinians to set up their independent nationstate, the state of palestine. that is what it is all about. everything else flows from this

basic problem. hamasael calls terrorists, so does the united states. your group your group and was a fellow military organization. you have set you ultimately left the group. groupve said you left the because of its terrorist tactics 1942.at you're was it, well, i was a member of a terrorist organization when i was 15 years old. i believe i understand the psychology of young people who calledganizations terrorists by their enemies but

think of themselves as freedom fighters. hamas thinks it is fighting for the fema -- freedom of palestine. they are deeply convinced of this, and therefore they are fighting in everybody must admit that they are fighting very well. lastse what you have here rilla is a gueri organization of at least -- at most 10,000 fighters fighting against one of the biggest and strongest armies in the world. so it is not an even fight. -- i think even the israeli army recognizes that somehow -- and somehow respects the fighting force of this organization. one of the basic problems at

this moment is that israelis and hamas do not talk to each other. the cease-fire was negotiated by egypt. egypt at this moment is against hamas more than israel. at this moment egypt and israel are very close partners. so egypt, appearing as a negotiator him a mediator, and honest broker, is ridiculous. americanway that the mediation was ridiculous. america is very, very, very close ally of israel. president obama repeats like a parrot the most basic israeli propaganda. and so does john kerry.

we don't have somebody who can mediate and is trusted by both sides. cairo, hamas went to these cease-fire negotiations, full of apprehension, full of distrust towards egypt. there is auld say veritable solution to this pit i think israel -- there is a very simple solution to this. i think israel and hamas must talk to each other. when people are firing on each other and trying to kill each other and indeed, killing each other, the best solution is it is time to talk with each other. i think that if the israelis and the palestinians would sit together opposite each other at one table and thrash out the real problems, trying to

understand, being able to understand each other, the whole thing would look very differently. -- hamas cannot and will not agree to a real cease-fire, long-lasting cease-fire, if there's a blockade on the gaza strip. this is a basic, local problem. of palestinians in the gaza strip. it is a tiny -- this is territory. you can translate it to american geographical facts. the whole thing is 50 kilometers wide and 10 kilometers long.

city,ate this to new york it is strong -- smaller than brooklyn. this is a huge population in a small territory, suffering from a blockade for at least eight years. the blockade means that all the borders are closed, including the sea border, and you cannot get in anything except by permission of israel and you cannot get anything out at all. there is no export from the gaza area. agree -- yes? >> i wanted to -- >> after such a -- yes, please? >> you mentioned the need for the israeli government and hamas to talk at -- as a first

step. but you have also written in the past that israel was was it -- israel was complicit in the rise of hamas and to some extent supported its rise. could you talk about that and the significance of the early period of hamas? time, beforehe the plo, the palestinian liberation organization, led at the time by yasser arafat, led -- becauseoud abbas they considered the plo their main enemy, they believed any enemy of the plo would be a friend of israel.

you cannot have any real political activities. any real political activity in occupied territories was completely forbidden. you went to prison for any kind of political activity, except that you could not close the mosques. islamistg as -- so people who go to the mosque to pray were the only people in the occupied territories who could come together and plan action. hamas, butnot create hamas was tolerated by israel in order to fight against yasser arafat and the plo. when the first intifada started, the first palestinian uprising , the israeli967 authorities very quickly realized that, says more

dangerous than plo. -- that hamas is more dangerous than the plo. the plo today is kind of partner of israel, and hamas has become the main enemy. they are much more dangerous because they are much more fanatical. stronglyvery religiously motivated. -- ais moment we have strange situation that israel a mood abbas,ke

the leader of the plo, the , they want authority mahmoud abbas to help israel against hamas. this delegation which is now conducting negotiations in cairo for the palestinian people, is led by mahmoud abbas. swing, full reversal of israeli policy -- >> we have to break but we are going to come back to the discussion with you. we want to also ask you about that moment in 1982, when you crossed lines and you were the first israeli yasser arafat government, when you met -- first israeli yasser arafat ever met.

irgunarted in the ea when he was a teenager, left and they're concerned about terrorist activity, ultimately founded one of the first peace groups in israel. he was a member of the knesset and met with yasser arafat. we will talk all about that when we come back.

,"re on "democracy now! democracy now dot org, the war and peace report. amy goodman come here with juan gonzalez. >> as a youth, our guest joined paramilitary group, which he quit to become a leading peace activist in israel. in 1950 he founded a news magazine and 15 years later he was elected to the knesset on a

peace platform. in 1982, uri avnery made headlines when he crossed the lines during the siege of beirut to meet with yasser arafat. in 1993 he started the grocery shalom peace movement. he turns 91 next month and he still writes a weekly column. can you go back to 1982, uri avnery, to talk about that moment when you met with yasser arafat? ?ow significant was that to my mind it was very significant. the situation was in a way similar to the present one. the plo, palestine liberation organization, was considered the main enemy of israel. ,t was located in south lebanon

and the israeli army started an invasion of lebanon in order to .estroy the plo cold war, likery the present one. civilian towns and villages were sheldon bombarded. beirut was surrounded by israeli troops, like gaza is now. there was a debate in our and military leadership whether to invade and .onquer west beirut i was very much afraid of this. i thought that this would lead to a widespread slaughter and lots of casualties on all sides, and many, many civilians being killed. i thought, as i think today,

that in order to put an end to a war, you must talk with your , try, look him in the eye to understand him, and come up with a solution. beirut,g the battle of i crossed the lines into the palestinian territory. i met with yasser arafat, the leader of the plo, and we had a long conversation about how to make peace. and then i went back to israel. and we remained friends for the rest of his life. we met very often. , heree came to palestine in palestine. the result of this de-ing was set up helped to

demonize the plo. yasser arafat was demonized for years. he was considered a monster. when pictures of him and me appear on israeli television talking to each other, sitting on the same sofa, i think to some extent it helps to change the picture of arafat the into arafat the enemy with whom we can make peace. years later, israel indeed made peace with the plo. made between the , iteli prime minister sucked rock been, and the chief of the yitzhak rabin, and the chief

of the plo, yasser arafat. there he soon -- very soon, rabin washak assassinated, assassinated by a jewish assassin, we sank back into war. my friends and i have commanded that -- demand that our withnment start talks hamas eight years ago. leaders.th hamas leadersth several hamas several times and i found people with whom i don't necessarily agree, but with whom i can talk. i believe even today that we can come to an agreement with the

palestinian people, including hamas. hamas.not ignore people have completely distorted people, what hamas is. hamas is not a militia. hamas is not a military organization. hamas is a political party which in the last palestinian elections supervised by ex-president carter, hamas had a majority of the palestinian people, including the gaza strip, voting for hamas. when the palestinian government was set up by hamas, it was

destroyed by israel and the united states, and europe. it was brought down. hamas took that if over power in the gaza strip by force, it took power after it wo n a big majority with a free elections in the gaza strip. it is much more complicated than just a fight between israel and the military or terrorist or whatever you want to call it organization. away.nnot wish hamas you can kill all 10,000 fighters of hamas, but hamas will remain because hamas is an ideology and hamas is a political party acce pted by the palestinian people. in the end, whatever we do,

after all the killing of all this terrible destruction, we will have to talk to hamas. >> do you feel that in the leadership of the israeli government there are those who are determined never to allow a palestinian state? or do you know if there is enough of the leadership cadre willing to reach a fair and just peace with the palestinians? this government of israel, which put the extreme right in israel, with some openly fascist byments in it, but supported a majority of the israeli people , does not want to give up the occupied territories of the west , and indirectly occupied territories of gaza.

.hat is the whole point if we are ready to give up this territory and allow the palestinians to set up their own nation state of palestine, then the problem is solved. there will be some discussions about details, about this part or that part. basically the problem would be solved and we shall have peace. but this government does not agree to give up the west bank. uphas but up -- it has put dozens of israeli jewish settlements, it is supporting these settlements, it is going to put up more settlements. if you put up settlements in the west bank, you cannot have a palestinian state. one must realize the west bank and gaza together, the occupied territories, altogether % of the historic

land of palestine. i was a citizen of palestine before 1948. palestine of this country of palestine, 22% are occupied territories in which the palestinians desire and are ready to set up their own nation state of palestine. the question is do we agree to with ane-by-side independent, sovereign state of palestine, yes or no? if not, every discussion is superfluous. we shall of war again and again and again until the end of time. >> uri avnery , i want to thank you very much for being with us. i'm sorry we have come to the end of our show. activist ande

founder of the douch -- gush shalom peace movement. breaking