04/13/15 04/13/15 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> i'm running for president. americans have fought their way back from tough economic times but the deck is still stacked in favor of those at the top. everyday americans need a champion, and i want to be that champion. amy: former secretary of state and first lady hillary clinton has formally entered the 2016 race for the white house in a bid to become the first woman u.s. president. we'll host a roundtable

discussion with joe conason, author of, "the hunting of the president: the ten-year campaign to destroy bill and hillary clinton" and senior nation contributing writer michelle goldberg, whose latest article is headlined, "hillary clinton's feminist family value," with longtime journalist robert scheer, author of, "the great american stickup: how reagan republicans and clinton democrats enriched wall street while mugging main street," and seattle's social city councilmember kshama sawant. then as north charleston, south carolina mourns walter scott at a funeral after he was gunned down during a traffic stop by what police officer we'll look , at what black lives charleston is calling for next. >> we want to citizens review board that has never heard people on it. we can say hey, buddy, you're out of here. amy: all that and more, coming up.

welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. president obama and cuban president raul castro have advanced their historic goal of resuming u.s.-cuba ties with the first direct meeting between leaders of the two countries in a half century. obama and castro sat down saturday at the summit of the americas, which cuba was attending for the first time. addressing the plenary, obama said his decision to change u.s. policy on cuba marks a turning point for the americas. >> this shift in u.s. policy represents a turning point for our entire region. the fact that president castro and i are both sitting her today marks a historic occasion. this is the first time in more than half a century that all the nations of the americas are meeting to address our future together. i think it is no secret

president castro i'm sure would agree, that there will continue to be significant differences between our two countries. we will continue to speak out on behalf of universal values that we think are important. i'm sure president castro will continue to speak out on the issues he thinks are important. that i firmly believe that if we can continue to move forward and see -- these this momentum and pursuit of mutual interest, the better relations between the u.s. and cuba will create opportunities for cooperation across our region for the security and prosperity and health and dignity of all our people. amy: obama later called his meeting with castro "candid and fruitful," and said a decision will come soon on cuba's removal from the u.s. list of state sponsors of terrorism. in his remarks to the summit cuban president raul castro said cuba should never have made the list in the first place. >> we have expressed, and i

repeated it again here to president obama, our willingness for respectful dialogue between both states within our profound differences. i see as a positive statement he will quickly decide to remove the existence of cuba from a list of countries that sponsor state terror, on which we should never have been included. amy: castro also renewed calls for the u.s. congress to end the embargo of cuba, which he said has harmed his country for decades. as the u.s. and cuba signaled new cooperation, president obama also heard criticism of his recent order designating venezuela a threat to national security. the white house backed off the order last week, but venezuelan president nicolas maduro told obama he doesn't trust him. >> i want to believe you, but i don't trust you. i respect you, but i don't trust you, president obama. if you are willing, we will talk. but if you don't want to talk that's fine. it will be your legacy in venezuela.

the order, the silence, the predominance. i have said it several times president obama. don't let things happen as they did with george w. bush, who supported the coup against chavez. history should go another way. i extend my hand president obama, so we can talk and resolve the issues we have to result between the united states and venezuela in peace. amy: maduro presented the summit with a petition signed by millions of venezuelans calling on obama to rescind the order. he later said he hopes to explore talks with the u.s. and relations with respect. >> it was a serious, frank meeting. we told the truth, and we believe the results of the summit supported by the handing over of 10.5 million signatures with the support of the people the willingness of our people, we could open up the possibility of a process for talks with the united states government.

and explore a cap to relations between -- with respect, which is fundamental. amy: saudi arabia has dismissed calls for calling in and. rouhani urged a cease-fire and dialogue among rival yemeni factions. on sunday, saudi foreign minister said "iran is not in charge of yemen." his comments come as the saudi led airstrikes that faced a rebuke from pakistan. on friday, pakistani lawmakers voted to reject a saudi request to join the campaign. the united nations continues to issue warnings over yarmouk, the palestinian of ug cap invaded by the self-proclaimed islamic state in syria. the head of the yuan agency for palestinian refugees said the u.n. is seeking to help civilians who have managed to flee. >> we remain very worried for refugees and civilians your inside.

we are very determined to provide assistance to those who have decided temporarily to leave the camp itself and to find shelter elsewhere. and we will take very seriously the needs also -- we're determined to be able to respond to the needs of the people there. amy: former secretary of state and first lady hillary clinton has formally entered the 2016 race for the white house in a bid to become the first woman u.s. president. if she wins the democratic party's nomination, she will be the first woman presidential nominee in the party's history. more on this story after headlines. four blackwater operatives will be sentenced today for their role in the 2007 massacre at baghdad's nisoor square. the operatives were found guilty last year on charges linked to the deaths of 14 of the 17 iraqi civilians who died when the defendants' blackwater unit opened fire.

nisoor square is the highest-profile deadly incident involving blackwater or any private war contractor. according to "the new york times," political appointees at the bush administration justice department resisted charges sought by federal prosecutors in late 2008. the prosecutors wanted to bring two machine gun charges each carrying 30 years in prison, but instead only winded up bringing one such charge. an fbi agent involved in the investigation called the lesser charges -- "an insult to the individual victims, the iraqi people as a whole, and the american people who expect their justice department to act better than this." hundreds of people gathered in north charleston, south carolina on saturday at the funeral for walter scott, the black man who fled a traffic stop and was fatally shot in the back by white police officer michael slager. this is scott family friend carla justice.

>> it is a senseless tragedy. it is something that could have been avoided. i know for a fact that cops are taught at the academy when someone runs away from you, you do not shoot them unless somebody else's life is in jeopardy. so looking at the video, it was clearly -- the officer was wrong. at the same time, i lift his family up. i lift him up in prayer as well as the scott's. it is just a tragedy. amy: we will have more from south carolina later in the broadcast. video has been released showing an oklahoma sheriff's deputy mistakenly shooting and killing an african-american man with his handgun, instead of his stun gun, he said. video from the oklahoma sheriff's department shows police officers exiting their cars and chasing the victim, eric harris, who was unarmed. after officers catch up to harris and bring him to the ground, an officer calls out the

word "taser" twice, before firing a single, fatal shot at harris. the other officers on the scene respond to harris's pleas for help by forcefully pinning him to the ground and telling him to shut up. when harris says, "i'm losing my breath," an officer responds "[bleep] your breath." >> stop right there. stop right there. >> you need to roll on your stomach now. >> i'm sorry. >> [bleep] amy: harris was pronounced dead an hour later.

the deputy who killed him robert bates, is a wealthy insurance executive and large donor to the tulsa police department. in return, he gets a volunteer as a reservist. 10 sheriff's deputies have been suspended in california after their savage beating of a man was caught on video. a news helicopter filmed the deputies kicking and punching francis pusok sce late face down in the desert after a chase. the fbi is investigating whether his civil rights were violated. ramsey orta, who filmed the police chokehold death of eric garner in staten island, has been freed from prison. his supporters raised nearly $40,000 to pay for his bail bond so he could be released from rikers where he is been held on an unrelated drug charge. the district attorney initially demanded a bills source hearing

to determine if the funds were obtained illegally, even though they were publicly raised. the ramsey orta was released after the prosecutor backed down. he and his family say police have targeted them overorta's filming of garner's death. to see our full interview with ramsey orta's aunt as well as his attorneys, you can go to democracynow.org. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now! democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. former secretary of state and first lady hillary clinton has formally entered the 2016 race for the white house in a bid to become the first woman u.s. president. if she wins the democratic party's nomination, she will be the first woman presidential nominee in the country's history. clinton made her announcement in a two-minute announcement video released sunday, clinton focused on ordinary americans starting new phases of life including two men getting married, a woman

preparing to retire, an interracial couple renovating their home immigrants speaking spanish and a man starting a , business. >> i'm getting married someone i really care about. >> i am going to be an a play and i'm going to be in a fish costume. >> i'm getting ready to retire soon. retirement means reinventing yourself in many ways. >> we have been doing a lot of home renovations. >> most important, we want to teach our dog to quit eating the trash. >> we have high hopes for 2015 that that is going to happen. >> a started a new career recently. this is a fit generation company, which means a lot to me. this country was founded on hard work and it really feels good to be a part of that. >> i'm getting ready to do something, too. i'm running for president.

americans have fought their way back from tough economic times. but the deck is still stacked in favor of those at the top. every day americans need a champion, and i want to be that champion. so you can do everything than just get by, you can get ahead. and stay ahead. because when families are strong, america is strong. so i'm hitting the road turn your vote because it is your time, and i hope you'll join me on this journey. amy: hillary clinton ran for the democratic presidential nomination in 2008, but lost to president obama. long considered the democratic front-runner, she has been expected to declare her candidacy for months. democratic candidates who may join clinton in her bid include former maryland governor martin o'malley, former rhode island governor and senator lincoln chafee, and former virginia senator jim webb.

this comes as senator marco rubio is expected to announce his bid today for the republican presidential nomination. senator rand paul of kentucky announced his plans to run last week, and texas senator ted cruz launched his candidacy in march. to discuss clinton's second bid for the white house, we're joined by several guests. here in new york, joe conason is the editor-in-chief of the national memo, co-editor of the investigative fund, and author of, "the hunting of the president: the ten-year campaign to destroy bill and hillary clinton." we're also joined by michelle goldberg, senior contributing writer at the nation. author of several books, including "the means of reproduction: sex power, and the future of the world." her latest article is headlined, "hillary clinton's feminist family values." in los angeles, we're joined by robert scheer, longtime journalist, editor of truthdig and author of many books. his latest is, "they know everything about you: how data-collecting corporations and snooping government agencies are destroying democracy." scheer is also the author of

"the great american stickup: how reagan republicans and clinton democrats enriched wall street while mugging main street." and in seattle, kshama sawant is a socialist city councilmember in seattle. she helped win a $15/hour minimum wage for all workers in seattle. one of her first moves which he became a member of the city council. she is a member of socialist alternative, a nationwide organization of social and economic justice activists. she is up for reelection this year. welcome all of you to democracy now! joe conason, let's begin with you. your assessment of hillary clinton, her bid yesterday, the much awaited announcement, and why you support her? >> well, i don't support her. i'm neutral in the primary, as i

was last time when she ran against barack obama. i didn't endorse or than. in fact, i was probably tougher on her and obama. the fact i'm endorsing her for anything is not right. i was interested yesterday to see her announce because she is clearly striving for different tone. last time, i and others wrote about the kind of almost coronation that they seem to expect in her campaign, she was inevitable. she had more money than obama or anyone else. therefore, she was going to just cruised to the nomination. of course, that turned out to be completely wrong. made many mistakes in the campaign. it was a campaign divided against itself in many cases. she lost narrowly, but she lost. i think looking back on that, this time, she has attempted to roll out her candidacy this time in a very different way. a modest tone, a tone of, "i

want to be your champion." a slightly populist tone that i think is appropriate to this moment. we will see what happens from here. amy: kshama sawant, your response to the rollout of hillary clinton's campaign? we're going to talk about overall today is her record. this is a person with a proven record in assessing what that has been from first lady to senator to secretary of state previous presidential candidate, and now again. kshama sawant? >> as joe was saying, she is now trying to use of the near of populist image. look, this is a person who is hired to hundred of visors to tell her how she can look populist without angering her wealthy donors. and ultimately the question is absolutely about her record as a warmongering secretary of state who used her position to

emphasize the drone attacks, to be a vocal proponent of the 2003 invasion of iraq, and to use her position to promote the interest of multinational corporations at the expense of the interest up working people. ultimately, this candidate if she is backed by the democratic party establishment apparatus, is going to be the wall street candidate. fundamentally, we have to ask ourselves the question -- is the democratic party establishment ever despite the populist imagery or rhetoric they may use, going to be ever a genuine begin promoting interest of working families? she is been missing in action on the $15 demand. the $15 demand is taking over nationally, and she, like other people in the democratic party establishment, have been completely silent. she was on the vote of walmart. alice walton has donated the maximum to her super pac

already. walmart is a corporation that has a notorious [indiscernible] record. the $25,000 that alice walton donated to her is well more than the hourly employees walmart -- of walmart may 2/3 of whom are women. we have to make clear that she is going to represent the continuation of what we've seen in the last several decades, including obama's presidency. this is going to be wall street-controlled white house, and we need an alternative. amy: michelle goldberg, your response to the rollout yesterday and to your concerns about hillary clinton whether you support her? >> i'm certainly going to support her versus whatever candidate the republicans put out. i have been pretty clinical -- critical of hillary clinton. i did not support her in 2008. in fact, i was furious with a lot of older feminist who

suggested it was incumbent on women to vote for hillary. i was impressed with the rollout because what is interesting, she has been in public life are such a long time and yet sometimes it can be hard to pin down exactly what she stands for in part because she is a very changeable can million-like candidate. there was hillary the feminist lawyer who worked on behalf of children's rights, the hillary the senator who sponsored the flagburning amendment and now hillary the grandmother who is talking about paid family leave and the sorts of things. my sense is, as many different kinds of incarnations she has had, the one constant in her career and maybe the place where she is the most authentic, is in her concern for women and families. women and children. the work she did on maternal mortality when she was in the state department, for example. inasmuch is that is going to be the center of this campaign and inasmuch as she is able to marry

this kind of family focused progressivism to women's issues like -- not women's issues, but parental issues like paid family leave, early childhood education, the sort of things that have never been at the center of her presidential election before, not only do i think that is a really good thing for feminism, but i also think that is the best side of hillary clinton. amy: robert scheer your response to hillary clinton entering the 2016 presidential race. >> i think it is absurd to suggest she is a friend of children who are in need or families. this is a woman who would her husband was governor, i first met her at that time when i went down to interview him for "the los angeles times" and he was starting his presidential run. they were bragging about their welfare reform, which destroyed what existed of support for poor children in arkansas. then as president, her husband,

with her full approval, destroyed the aid to families with dependent children, which 70% of the people on that program were children. it was the major federal program to help poor people and poor families. in a cynicism of the clinton administration, they destroyed that program. we don't even have an accounting of poor children anymore. they're off the radar. so that is just utter nonsense. and then her husband -- after all, she was full throated support, she was very close to robert ruben, lawrence summers to the people in the clinton a administration who gave us the radical do regulation of wall street which caused incredible misery and the great recession the clinton signing on the collateral debt obligation law which allowed all that junk to be legal.

the commodity futures modernization act, financial service modernization act reverse glass-steagall. they're the ones that open the door to the wall street thieves that brought on the great recession and then a senator, she is carried water for wall street faith fully. finally, if we're going to run for some one who has expressed a secretary of state, i would rather support john kerry. after all, it is been a great relief to see him as a posting or clinton. we finally have some rational foreign-policy and peacemaking with iran, with cuba. where was hillary clinton? i could never vote for hillary clinton is her attack on edward snowden. her attack on the whistleblowers. the common traders come to talk about -- here is a woman who knew what the government was doing in spying on the american people. she didn't tell us. she didn't trust the state department with her e-mail. she never told us the state

department, the cia, and msa were spying on e-mails of all the americans. but she thinks that is fine. she's just going to keep her e-mail in her garage. i find her to be a center of cynicism and opportunism, and quite reckless. amy: where going to take a break and a come back to this discussion. our guest are robert scheer kshama sawant, michelle goldberg , as well as joe conason. hillary clinton has entered the 2016 presidential race. we will be back in a minute. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. president obama said over the weekend hillary clinton would be "excellent president." he was speaking in panama city on saturday, before she announced her candidacy.

>> with respect to hillary clinton, i will make my comments very brief. she was a formidable candidate in 2008. she was a great supporter of mine in the general election. she was an outstanding secretary of state. she is my friend. i think she would be an excellent president. amy: this is then senator hillary clinton back in 2002, ahead of the vote on the resolution to authorize the use of war -- the use of war against iraq. >> because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the united nations more likely and therefore, were less likely, and because a good faith effort by the united states, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, i have concluded

after careful and serious consideration that a vote for the resolution passed serves the security of our nation. if we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few democrats, i am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go away with delay will oppose any u.n. resolution calling for unrestricted inspections. this is a very difficult vote. this is probably the hardest decision i've ever had to make. any vote that might lead to war should be hard. but i cast it with conviction. amy: that was hillary clinton in 2002. she was joining a number of other democrats as well as republicans voting for the authorization for the use of military force in iraq.

our roundtable today discussing hillary clinton entering the 2016 presidential race if she were to win, she will be the first woman president of the united states is, joe conason author of "the hunting of the president: the ten-year campaign to destroy bill and hillary clinton." michelle goldberg is senior contributing writer at the nation. robert scheer, "they know everything about you: how data-collecting corporations and snooping government agencies are destroying democracy." kshama sawant is a socialist city councilmember in seattle. joe conason, you have been covering hillary and bill clinton for a very long time. first, what about obama said, the significance of what he said on saturday? and hillary clinton, voting for the war with iraq, something that became a major issue --

many say the reason she did not win the democratic nomination in 2008? >> it definitely didn't help. she admitted that was a bad vote. i was very critical of the war and her at the time. but that is now 13 years ago. john kerry who bob recommended as a better presidential candidate come also voted for that resolution and lots of people supported him for president a year after the iraq war began -- including me. >>amy: he also lost. >> he also lost, but he won the democratic nomination. that is something she news to be held to account for and she has been and will be again. it is not the full picture of her years as a senator or her view of foreign-policy. the second thing i would say is what the president said is more interesting and significant now because he is the leader of the democratic hearty.

and her service to him, both politically and in government, i think, has united the democratic party much more than it was in 2008 behind her. if you look at poll numbers, she leads any conceivable opponent to her within the democratic party and the primary by 50 points, or something like that. the reason is, the obama faction of the party, if you want to put it that way, the party was a most evenly divided in 2008. the obama supporters have rallied behind hillary in minority communities feminist -- all of the people who might have been for obama the last time, our with hillary now -- released, many, many of them. i think that is what mattered about what he said. amy: i want to turn to comments the clinton made by lincoln chafee a former u.s. senator and , governor from rhode island who announced thursday that he is exploring a run for the democratic presidential nomination. chafee served in the senate as a

republican, but left the party in 2007 to become an independent. he actively supported president obama in his 2008 and 2012 . chafee was elected governor in 2010 as an independent, and in 2013, he became a democrat. speaking to "the washington post," chafee criticized clinton's support of the 2002 vote on the invasion of iraq. he said -- "i don't think anybody should be president of the united states that made that mistake.... it's a huge mistake and we live with broad, broad ramifications today -- of instability not only in the middle east but far beyond and the loss of american credibility. there were no weapons of mass destruction." chafee appeared on msnbc later the same day and explained why the iraq vote was still important. >> it is relevant to what we read about everyday and the papers in the middle east and other areas of the world. isis and what is happening in nigeria, and how we confront some of these extremist insurgencies. we were successful in the past over the years by having good alliances and having good

american credibility, and that is been squandered by this bad decision. even though it was a long time ago, i agree with that back in 2002, but the ramifications are still felt today. amy: that his former governor and senator lincoln chafee of rhode island who may throw his hat in the ring as the democrat. michelle goldberg, your response, his saying anyone who would vote for war in iraq given what has happened then and today, is not qualified to be president? >> i think there's something to that. i would save your questioning someone's judgment, i would question the judgment of someone who did not realize the republican party was in a place for decent until 2007. i think that is probably the best case that he has against her and certainly, that vote is the reason i didn't support her in 2008. but i also think if you look at who the field is, you know, i'm someone who believes the lesser of two evils is less evil.

and to me, she is by far -- at a certain point, it doesn't even really matter. she is so must certainly going to be the nominee. she is going to be leagues better than whoever she is running against on the republican party. as i said, she's the kind of can meleon-like candidate. she often bows to political pressure. the worst thing about her, but also opens opportunity for progressives who can try to, i think if they get organized, and try to work within the system as opposed to working is spoilers, exert pressure in the other direction. amy: kshama sawant, what about the argument, the candidate people are going to get to vote for in 2016, the lesser of two evils, argument? two evils. your with socialist alternative

which is a third-party. many did not expect you would win a council seat in the seattle city council, but you did. what about that issue of the lesser of two evils? >> i think that is a very important question to examine. i want to start by first talking about something that is probably on the minds of a lot of people that hillary clinton is a woman as others have stated, is all but certainly going to get the democratic party nomination and it would be fantastic. you would have a woman in the white house showing the strikes women are making. suddenly, i understand where they're coming from. -- certainly, i understand where they're coming from. we have to look at her record. her record speaks for itself. this is not the record of anybody who would even remotely could claim that were upholding the interest of women or children, as robert clearly stated and all of the things

she's been involved in. it is a larger question of the democratic party establishment itself. let's assume hypothetically that hillary clinton wasn't a cynical opportunist, was she is, but generally was going to represent -- genuinely was wonder represent the interest of tens of millions of working families that are looking for genuine representation. or say, hypothetically, someone else who may be less of a warmongering representative gets the democratic party nomination. the question is, are they going to be able to carry out anything like a working-class agenda? anything remotely approaching social change? if they get to the white house on the basis of the democratic party apparatus, which rests completely and utterly on the wall street money? that is the question we are examining. ultimately, the argument of lesser of evil is -- that argument works -- it is never going to be a good time to break

from the two-party are the two big business party machinery and build management, independent alternative, because you can always make the claim, well, if we ran a left candidate in 2016 it is not going to work so let's just hunker down and work for hillary because she is better than the republicans. but that argument is missing the big, big chunk of america that is completely disengaged from politics. if you look at the approval ratings of u.s. congress, if you look at the percentages of people who go to the polls, and if you look at the polls that show 60% of americans are fed up and frustrated with the two-party system and want something different, you are missing the whole big chunk of america that is completely missing in this esoteric argument about whether hillary is better or some other candidate should get the nomination. ultimately, the question that

needs to arise at this moment is -- the responsibility of the left, responsibility of the left to begin the process of building a left alternative, a political structure that represents working families. because whether we like it or not, there is a gaping vacuum where most of america is not present. and if we don't occupy that vacuum, the right will. it is an urgent task. and for people who might think well, people aren't ready for it -- no, they're absolutely ready for it. we have shown in seattle that you can not only run as an anticorporate candidate, as an alternative to democrat, but you can also win. after winning the election, the connection to carry out a very very effective and successful working-class agenda. lastly about -- i know the arguments will come up about well, we can't do this at the national level. it is ok for local level. that is a false dichotomy.

there are no republicans to speak of in seattle. just the democratic party establishment. all of the problems people face are the doorstep of the democrats. this year my reelection year you will see the democratic reestablishment going to war against my campaign and making sure, trying to make sure i don't get reelected. why? at the end of the day, that establishment does not support the agenda of working people. what about climate change? single-payer health care? the gutting of education? all of this lies at the doorstep of the democratic establishment. amy: robert scheer, one of your books, "the great american stickup," talk about the clinton partnership. when you talk about clinton democrats, are you talking about bill clinton were bill and hillary clinton? .

and what that means. the way it is being discussed today with the rollout of hillary clinton, the role her husband will play, will he be behind-the-scenes, is he a liability, is he an asset? they are a fears fermentable political partnership. how do you separate what each of them represent? >> i don't think there's any separation, actually. bill clinton might be a bit more progressive. he actually had some positive things to say about whistleblowers in the nsa whereas hillary just wanted -- she actually had the nerve to blast snowden. she said, what is he doing in russia? as if she didn't know they yanked his passport and that is -- he was in transit. this is disgusting when he thing about it. here we have this break 29 euros at the time who dared to tell us what this government, that

hillary was a clean key part of. the obama in a racial and scott after more whistleblowers than all three previous presidents combined, and hillary clinton dares -- amy: let's go to hillary clinton commenting on edward snowden. she was interviewed by "the guardian" which first released the revelations based on the documents of edward snowden. >> i would say, first of all edward snowden broke our laws and that cannot be ignored or brushed aside. secondly, i believe is his final -- primary concern was stirring a debate in our country over the tension between privacy and security -- there were other ways of doing it. instead of stealing an enormous amount of information that had nothing to do with the u.s. or american citizens. i would say, thirdly, there are many people in our history who

have raised serious questions about government behavior. they have done it either with or without whistleblower protection. and they have stood and faced whatever the reaction was to make their case in public. amy: that was hillary clinton commenting on edward snowden. robert scheer, your response? >> she is no respect for courage. she is a total hypocrite. my goodness, this guy did what daniel ellsberg did, and she would've condemned him as well. these are people who told us what our government didn't tell us. she lied to us. bulimia just point out, i mean joe's point somehow, she is ok and i forget your writer from -- by the way, let me say i was in seattle recently and i will say again, if your guest from seattle were to run for president, i would vote for her over hillary and uday of the week. -- any day of the week.

i would vote for lincoln chafee over hillary because he is a true moderate. althoughin a would also give serious consideration to rand paul. hillary clinton was in favor of a very belligerent attitude in syria, which had led to the unleashing of isis. she is the one who said, oh, assad is the worst thing going just like saddam hussein and they said qaddafi. you look at libya and iraq and syria, terrible mess. and yet hillary clinton seems to have no compunction that their foundation that her daughter -- she says, i want for every child what my granddaughter has. your granddaughter has a father that works for goleman's acts and a foundation that gives enormous amount of money from saudi arabia and other people who have in the backers of isis. what do you stand for? where are you going to get your $2.5 billion to run if not from

wall street? this is a person of can talk a good game, but is totally disingenuous and betraying the very people she seems to care about. amy: joe conason, if you could respond to robert scheer? >> it would be great to bring the conversation back to reality. when someone says, well, seattle is the perfect example of politics in america. i'm sorry there is a republican party in america. it is in fact the dominant party right now. seattle -- we're not all like seattle. that is not what is happening in the united states politically. so you have to start with where you are and the choices you really have, ok? it is fine to have these discussions and fantasize about whatever it is you would like to see happen, and i share a lot of the aspirations that anybody would have about more progressive government in the

united states. but here we are now. the choices going to be, 70 like rand paul -- i guess bob is ok with them wanting to abolish social security and medicaid. or someone like you learned clinton who won't do that. for instance. so going towards november 20 16 -- amy: i want robert scheer to answer that point and i will come right back to you. >> come on. the fact is, rand paul, if you want to have the rise to the bait, rand paul had the integrity to oppose the bailout the build out the banks but did not fill out americans. -- but did not bail out americans. he had the courage -- >> and he was leading the tax regulations. the honest. >> the policy in mideast has led to absolute ruin -- >> he change that because he wants sheldon adelson's money. >> uart interrupting me.

>> i'm sorry. you are interrupting me. >> challenging that hillary clinton has celebrated. celebrated the surveillance state. she is celebrated using this war -- >> when did she do that? >> rand paul at least have the challenge -- by the way, why are you you not mentioning chafee? >> let's talk about lincoln chafee. who did he support for president in 2004? since he is now made the iraq war the issue he wants to run on , who did he support for president in 2004? who did he support for senate leadership and 2004? he supported george w. bush. and john kerry also voted for the resolution. it is just really. >> you don't consider him a moderate republican -- i don't know what he is anymore? i don't think is relevant, bob. >> you think hillary clinton has

all of the ingredients of a margaret thatcher? >> no, i don't. let's stop for a second. you want to talk about working people and who they may or may not support. she will have the support of every labor union in this country. she probably are ready does. her candidacy yesterday was welcomed by the head of the afl-cio, which represents a few more workers than you do, welcoming her into the race saying, i'm waiting to see what she says about these issues. he's not thinking about the iraq war resolution or any of this other stuff that in midgley is relevant -- it is relevant, but is not the pressing issue for 2016. the pressing issue is, do ever radical right republican government that in all three branches, which will end up with i don't know, 7, 8 supreme court justices like alito, or do we have a moderate democratic administration where, yes, there is going to be a lot of typing and pulling within the party within congress over which

issues are to be brought to the floor, with the president's position will be, what she should do if she is president? that, to me, is a better situation for working families and all americans -- by the way people around the world -- than the idea of a president rand paul or president ted cruz or somebody who is going to dismantle every for texan working families in this country -- >> what about president elizabeth warren? >> what about it? she isn't running, bob. >> but why to encouraging more progressive person to run. for god, dennis kucinich. anyone. you'll have to answer the question, joe, why are we stuck with someone like hillary clinton who is a proven record of betraying the progressive ideas? a michelle goldberg, do you want to get a word in here? we have to go to break in and come back to this discussion. you're watching, listening to -- and you can read them online at democracynow.org, robert scheer

author and editor in chief at truthdig, are also joined in new york by joe conason, the author of "the hunting of the , president: the ten-year campaign to destroy bill and hillary clinton." michelle goldberg is senior contributing writer at the nation. and kshama sawant is a socialist city councilmember in seattle. she push for $15 minimum wage for all workers in seattle and won. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we are joined by joe conason robert scheer, author of "they

know everything about you: how data-collecting corporations and snooping government agencies are destroying democracy." we're joined by kshama sawant and michelle goldberg, author of many books including, "the means of reproduction: sex, power, and the future of the world." her latest article is headlined, "hillary clinton's feminist family values." this debate about who will represent america? >> we have this debate every four to eight years. robert scheer as while we're stuck with these two choices. part of the reason is because of the way left-wing activists approach electoral politics as opposed to the way right-wing activists approach electoral politics. my first book was about religious rights activists. i said, we're going to stay home or vote for some spoiler candidate or former.

what they did is actually what kshama sawant is doing. kind of left-wing activists are working at the grassroots are doing all across the country is that you have to build an infrastructure. you have to build within the party. you have to take over the party apparatus before you can expect the party to serve your ands -- ends. you can come in every eight years and say, they put up someone completely different or -- why can't they put up someone completely different or have a third party that operates outside of the constraints of the american two-party -- amy: we haven't mentioned bernie sanders. there's a lot of discussion as he travels the country about the possibility of a candidacy. would it be with the democrats? he caucuses with the democrats but he is an independent, in fact, socialist from vermont. >> bernie sanders is probably the closest to the candidate whose views align with my own. but i think, like joe said, you go to an election with the

country have, not the country you want. the idea that this huge block of disengaged voters are secret socialists just waiting to be mobilized is just not borne out by any data out there. if you want a liberal electorate, you have to build it and organize it, you can't just depend -- attend it is in hiding and will appear only the right candidate -- evelyn the corporate democrats don't stop the right candidate from putting the name forward. the boats just aren't there. the infrastructure isn't there. so what you do -- amy: don't pull show the country's more liberal salute leaders? what about the issue of the republicans of killing to their base -- >> if you're antiwar street, that hillary clinton by a long shot. this is nonsense. >> the polls show other things. >> get a chance to stop the bailout which was an atrocity.

let's be serious, are you telling me the vast majority of americans prefer wall street the way hillary clinton has catered to them? or would they ask you support a populist? i agree, bernie sanders would be great right now. it is the democrats who have destroyed the possibility -- amy: let's bring in -- >> how have they destroyed it by grassroots organizing? >> on a personal note, iran for commerce against a so-called establishment democrat a long time ago. i got 45% of the vote. as result of that, ron dellums was the best person in congress for a long time and he took that seat. we show people in oakland in the community could support a progressive candidate. it was oakland and a good part of contra costa and what was considered a safe, moderate democratic district.

ron dellums came in raising all of the issues that i had been raising and he raised them in congress. and you can do it. i think that is what is happening in seattle. amy: kshama sawant, i want to bring you back into this discussion, the idea of republicans appealing to their base but democrats running away from their base. >> i think it has -- it is too simplistic to say republicans are appealing to their base because their bases right-wing and democrats are not appealing to their base, which is progressive. that completely belies the reality that if you look at poll after poll on social justice issues, social and economic issues, the vast majority of americans are well to the left of the choice that are presented to them in the form of democratic republicans. i completely disagree with the idea that somehow the electorate is not progressive and you have to somehow generate that, and it can't be artificially

manufactured. as a matter of fact, americans do want an alternative. they had been crying out for an alternative. there's a huge vacuum that is not been felt. it is really up to the left to do that. it is not good enough for the left to say, well, we can't really have a spoiler vote this year and that is what we're going to support hillary. that is an abdication of responsibility. we have to build an alternative. there is no shortcut. it is when a be hard work. i agree with michelle, it is all about organizing. at that organizing from the grassroots, that is building a mass movement which we absolutely have to do, has to incorporate a real political alternative to the dog and pony show that we will see it again in 2016. amy: joe conason, we are invited in the corporate media, having debates with republicans and debating does very much that spectrum. this is opening up this discussion.

what about the concern of many in the democratic establishment that hillary clinton doesn't have a viable opponent in the primary engineer by the clintons were not, that i can actually weaken her? >> some people think that is something the opposite and say well, bill bradley didn't really strengthen our war in 2000 and there's not really an example you can give a candidate for president he was made stronger by a primary opponent. so -- i don't know, actually. amy: president obama? >> was he made stronger? that is a good question. he was made stronger when the clintons decided to support him in 2012 and probably helped him get him in office and keep them in office, but -- what, bob scheer ran for congress 50 years ago. just to put this in perspective. 50 years later, and it was a noble cause he was supporting, antiwar cause -- i admired him very much when was growing up. 50 years later, we're in the

same position that we were then. there is no burgeoning left alternative to the left of the democratic party. amy: michelle goldberg, as we wrap up, your comment on what you want to see happen in this next year? >> what i want to see happen is for people to organize within the democratic party to pull hillary clinton to the left. i think for better or for worse, she is responsible -- amy: robert scheer? >> i supported obama and it was easier to challenge the government when bush was president then when obama was president. it is not good for democracy to have a lesser evil as our candidate. amy: kshama sawant? >> i would like to see bernie sanders run as an independent an alternative for democrats and republicans. i would like to export the left for me, to win my reelection because that is critical. amy: we have to leave it there. kshama sawant from seattle, joe

conason from the national memo. thank you to michelle goldberg and robert scheer. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013.