05/05/15 05/05/15 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> we now see clear evidence of the essential role that health professionals played as a legal heat shield for the bush and administration, their gl -- get out of jail free card. amy: new details have emerged on how the nation's largest group of psychologists, the american psychological association aided government-sanctioned torture under president george w. bush. today we will speak two of the

co-authors of the new report "all the president's psychologists: the american psychological association's secret complicity with the white house and u.s. intelligence community in support of the cia's 'enhanced' interrogation program." >> there's all kinds of unfortunate overlap that seemed to press the apa to support military policy, uncritically and sometimes perhaps behind-the-scenes. amy: then human rights watch accuses the saudi-led coalition of dropping banned cluster bombs manufactured and supplied by the united states near rebel-held villages in yemen. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the british-based syrian

observatory for human rights has accused the u.s.-led coalition of killing 64 civilians in an airstrike on a syrian village controlled by the self-proclaimed islamic state. the group said 31 children were among those killed late last week near the northern city of kobani in what it called the worst civilian loss from a single attack since the united states launched its campaign against isil. the pentagon says it is still assessing whether it should open an investigation, but denied there was any information to suggest civilians were killed.

it's believed the entire village was wiped out. nepali foreign minister mahendra bahdur pandey said the death toll could still reach 10,000. >> there may be 10,000 people to be dead it is supposed, but we wish it not have to be in that number. but the final number will be at the time when we completely remove the debris and find out -- amy: in burundi, the constitutional court has ruled president pierre nkurunziza can run for a third term, as deadly protests against the bid continued into their second week. secretary of state john kerry has called the re-election bid unconstitutional. burundi's constitution allows presidents to serve only two terms, but nkurunziza was

appointed to his first term by parliament. the court's decision to allow his re-election bid comes after the vice president of the court fled the country, telling agence france press a majority of the court believed the bid was unconstitutional, but the judges faced "enormous pressure and even death threats" to side with the president. police reportedly shot four protesters dead on monday, bringing the toll to at least 13. the aid group save the children has reported dozens of migrants have drowned in the mediterranean sea after their boat sank. more than 1750 people from africa and the middle east have died so far this year trying to cross the mediterrean to europe. italy says it has rescued thousands of people in recent days. the self-proclaimed islamic state has claimed responsibility for this weekend's attack in texas on an anti-islam event which included a contest for drawing the prophet muhammad. it's unclear whether isil actually coordinated the attack. the two gunmen were shot dead outside the event in garland

texas. no one else was killed. the gunmen have been identified as phoenix, arizona, roommates elton simpson and nadir soofi. simpson, a u.s.-born convert to islam, had been under fbi surveillance since 2006, and was convicted in 2011 of lying to fbi agents about plans to travel to somalia. he was sentenced to probation after a judge found federal prosecutors had not proved their argument he planned to trip for the purposes of "violent jihad." the fbi and phoenix police had reportedly been monitoring simpson's posts about isil on social media. the event targeted by the attack was organized by anti-islam activist pamela geller. it came just months after gunmen in paris, france attacked charlie hebdo newspaper, known for its satirical drawings of the prophet muhammad. alia salem, executive director of the council on american-islamic relations chapter in north texas condemned the violence, but criticized the event.

>> the muslim community at large in dfw made a collective decision not to attend or even protest sunday's events in an effort to ignore the hateful actions intended to incite the muslim community, but also to give an unchallenged space for them to have their event. while we in no way condone the behavior of these criminals that opened fire and as americans, we absolutely uphold the right to freedom of expression, we must ask ourselves -- at what point does free speech become hate speech, especially when the intention is so clearly to incite a violent response? amy: a new report based on the testimonies of israeli soldiers has concluded the massive civilian death toll from last summer's israeli assault on gaza resulted from a "policy of indiscriminate failure." the israeli veterans group breaking the silence released testimonies of more than 60 israeli officers and soldiers which it says illustrate a

"broad ethical failure" which "comes from the top of the chain of command." more than 2200 palestinians were killed in the assault, the vast majority civilians, while in israel, 73 people were killed, all but six of them soldiers. in a video made by breaking the silence, a first sergeant, his voice distorted, describes how a commander told him, "there are no innocent civilians," and to assume anyone within 200 or 400 meters of the israeli defense forces was an enemy. >> and i "rules of engagement or anyone at a distant second put you at risk, you kill him with no need for clearance." meaning, anyone at a distance of 200, 300, 400 meters from us, isn't an ordinary civilian.

amy: the republican leader of the new york state senate has been arrested along with his son on accusations of extortion, fraud and soliciting bribes. , federal prosecutors have accused state senator dean skelos of soliciting payments for his son from a developer and an environmental company, in exchange for political favors. in a recorded conversation, his son, adam skelos, acknowledges getting a job as a consultant to the environmental firm, abtech which sells storm water filters, even though he "literally knew nothing about water, or, you know, any of that stuff." preet bharara, u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, unveiled the charges. >> in the complaint multiple places alleges that dean skelos support for certain infrastructures projects and legislation was often based not on what was good for his constituents are good for new york, but rather, on what was good for his son's bank accounts. by now, two things should be

abundantly clear. first, public corruption is a deep-seated problem in new york state. it is a problem in both chambers . it is a problem on both sides of the aisle. and second, we are deadly serious about tackling that problem. amy: the charges come after democratic new york assembly speaker sheldon silver resigned following charges he took millions of dollars in bribes. the mother of a 12-year-old boy fatally shot by police in cleveland, ohio has moved into a homeless shelter and remains unable to bury her son five-and-a-half months after he was killed. tamir rice was playing with a toy gun when police pulled up and fatally shot him within two seconds of their arrival. they failed to provide medical help and tackled tamir's sister to the ground as she tried to run to him. now his family has asked a judge to reject the officers' bid to delay their civil rights lawsuit, pending an

investigation by the sheriff's department. the motion says rice's mother samaria rice, is living with tamir's sister in a homeless shelter "because she could no longer live next door to the killing field of her son." the family has also waited to bury tamir, in case more evidence is needed from his body. samaria rice and her uncle mike spoke at a news conference monday. >> less than a second, my son is gone and i want to know how long i got to wait for justice. >> my niece has been displaced out of her home as a result of this, had to get emergency shelter as a result of this injustice. i'm here to support her and we do want to know how long? all of us have seen the video. in less than .78 seconds, two shots was fired. they say they told him to put his hands up three times.

that could not have happened from what we saw in the video. amy: peaceful protest continue over the death of freddie gray of spinal injuries in police custody. during a solidarity protest over gray's death in new york last week, a restaurant patron acosta protesters shouting "white lives matter" and telling activist and student study he hoped she got raped. the man was the president of the comedy which makes greek yogurt. his company says he has resigned "as a result of our core values." president obama is set to nominate marine corps commandant general joseph dunford to become the next chair of the joint chiefs of staff, replacing general martin dempsey, who is retiring. dunford led the u.s.-nato occupation force in afghanistan for 18 months starting in 2013 overseeing the drawdown of u.s. troops and purported transfer of security control to afghanistan. he also led a regiment during the 2003 invasion of iraq.

he earned the nickname "fighting joe." five students at tufts university in medford, massachusetts have launched a hunger strike to protest the university's plans to cut 17% of its janitorial workforce in june. the students began their strike on sunday. they were turned aside the janitors jobs. fellow students are camping out in solidarity with the hunger strikes outside tufts' main administration building. and the folk singer and social justice activist guy carawan who popularized the song, "we shall overcome," for activists in the civil rights movement has died at the age of 87. carawan became music director of the highlander folk school in tennessee 1959. in a 2004 interview on democracy now!, carawan's friend, the late, great pete seeger recalled how carawan helped make the song, "we shall overcome," a rallying cry. >> he was a friend of mine guy carawan, who wrote it.

there was another teacher there am a black woman, she felt "shall" open up the mouth better than "will" so that is the way she sang it. anyway, 1960 guy taught it to young people at the founding conviction of snic dish convention of snic. a month later, he wasn't "a" song, it was "the" song. amy: guy carawan died in his sleep at home after a battle with alzheimer's disease on saturday, one day before what would have been pete seeger's 96th birthday. pete seeger died last january. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now! democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. new details have emerged on how the nation's largest group of psychologists, the american psychological association aided government-sanctioned torture under president george w. bush. a group of dissident psychologists have just

published a 60-page report alleging the apa secretly coordinated with officials from the cia, white house, and the pentagon to change the apa ethics policy to align it with the operational needs of the cia's torture program. the report also reveals a behavioral science researcher working for president bush secretly drafted language that the apa inserted into its ethics policy on interrogations. much of the report is based on hundreds of newly released internal apa emails from 2003 to 2006 that show top officials were in direct communication with the cia. in 2004, for example, the apa secretly took part in a meeting with officials from the cia and other intelligence agencies to discuss ethics and national security. in one e-mail, the apa stated that the aim of the meeting was -- "to take a forward looking positive approach, in which we

convey a sensitivity to and appreciation of the important work mental health professionals are doing in the national security arena, and in a supportive way offer our assistance in helping them navigate through thorny ethical dilemmas." one attendee was kirk hubbard then the chief of operations for the cia operational assessment division. he would later leave the cia to work for a private firm set up by james mitchell and bruce jessen, the psychologists who were hired as private contractors to set up the cia interrogation program including the waterboarding of prisoners. in one 2003 e-mail hubbard wrote , to a top apa official "you won't get any feedback from [dr. james] mitchell or [dr. bruce] jessen. they are doing special things to special people in special places, and generally are not available." while the apa has attempted to distance itself from mitchell and jessen, the newly disclosed emails show the men attended a 2003 invite-only conference

called, "the science of deception" sponsored by the apa, cia, and rand corporation to discuss so-called enhanced interrogations. we are joined now by two of the co-authors of the new report "all the president's psychologists: the american psychological association's secret complicity with the white house and u.s. intelligence community in support of the cia's 'enhanced' interrogation program." steven reisner, is clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst. he is a founding member of the coalition for an ethical psychology and advisor on psychology and ethics for physicians for human rights. he is currently a member of the apa council of representatives. nathaniel raymond is director of the signal program on human security and technology at the harvard humanitarian initiative. we did invite a representative from the apa to join us as well, but they declined. last year, the apa commissioned an outside attorney named david hoffman to conduct a third party, independent review of the allegations about apa and the

bush administration torture program. rhea farberman, the apa's executive director for public and member communications, told democracy now! the apa won't respond to the allegations in the "all the president's psychologists" report until hoffman's review is completed. steven reisner and nathaniel raymond, welcome back to democracy now! nathaniel raymond, why don't you lay out the core findings in your 60 have an page report? >> there are four core findings. the first is that the american psychological association allowed, as you mentioned, dr. susan brandon, it appears, who three weeks before the apa engaged in this ethics process in 2005 on psychological ethics and national security had been president bushes advisor. -- president bush's advisor. she wrote what appeared to be research language in the pens

report. that language we now know, because of the senate select committee on intelligence report directly aligns with the legal memos authorizing the enhanced interrogation program and provided an ethical get out of joffrey card that aligned with the then classified legal cap of jail free card. secondly, we see clear deception by the apa, including some outright lies, including the assertion for many years that james mitchell, the cia torture psychologist you mentioned had not been in apa member. we now know he was in apa member from 2001 to 2006 and the apa has contended according to the ethics director that they had no contact on interrogations and interrogation techniques with mitchell and jessen. we now know they discussed

sensory overload in the use of psychopharmacological agents with mitchell and jessen in 2003. the last two critical findings amy, are that the apa as we see throughout the e-mails expressed no concern about clear evidence of abuse that at that point between 2004 in 2005, was public knowledge. and lastly, what we see in this report is a clear coordination that directly mirrors the timeline inside the bush administration went office of medical services personnel inside the cia or raising concerns about human subjects research as part of the program, the apa, whether they knew it or not, allowed the administration to write a policy that basically helped put down that rebellion inside the cia. amy: how? >> by allowing psychologists to

play critical monitoring and research role. that was at the heart of the newly, then newly authorized bradberry office of legal counsel memo. if psychologists could not ethically play this role, if the apa had not engaged in this policy, it is highly likely that the interrogation program itself would have disintegrated. amy: you ran, steven reisner for president of the market psychological association. your main platform was speaking out against torture and apa's involvement with the bush administration. you did not win. talk about what this means for the american psychological association. >> well, i think the issue is what this means for the entire profession psychologists and the fact we are represented by the american psychological association. because i think what we're

finding is that psychologists are feeling betrayed by our association. what is happened is the ethics code that we're all trained in, that we align ourselves with and that gives us our identity as health professionals dedicated to the public good, that ethics code and ethics policy was twisted to a line not only to align with what the government needed it to do, but in the service of torture, it is a betrayal of what i think we all are expecting from and try to identify with with our associations with. what has to happen right now is we have to -- the membership, the council, any concerned american has to insist that we reclaim our association, put it back on an ethical track and find a way to expose this, be a

combo for it, be transparent about it, and make significant change so we can restore trust. amy: we are going to go in detail and when they knew it with dr. steven reisner and nathaniel raymond, co-authors of the new report "all the , president's psychologists." ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we are talking about a new report that has just come out on the american psychological association's involvement with the bush administration so-called enhanced interrogation program.

in 2005, the director of ethics at the american psychological association, then and now, appeared on democracy now! >> i don't have first-hand knowledge of what went on at guantanamo. i know the apa very much once the facts and that when apa has the facts, we will act on those facts will stop amy: he appeared on the show in a debate with jeff the medical ethics committee at the british medical association. he went on to defend the apa's actions. >> and all fairness, the american psychological association is very clear that under no circumstances is it in any manner permissible for a psychologist to engage in, to support, to facilitate, to direct or to advise torture or other cruel, inhuman, or

degrading treatment. the american psychological association and the american psychiatric association issued a joint statement against torture and cruel, inhumane, degrading treatment in 1985. in 1986, the american psychological association issued another resolution against torture. so to even suggest that that would in any manner be permissible is completely out of bounds. >> might i ask a direct question? i'm interested to know, could i ask why the apa's presidential report and specifically recommends that psychologists should be involved in research into interrogation techniques? >> well, as i have said, psychologists have been working together with law enforcement for many years domestically,

and information gathering and interrogation processes. we believe that as experts in human behavior, psychologists have valuable contributions to make to those activities. amy: that is dr. onbehnke democracy now! in 2005. our guests are steven reisner and nathaniel raymond. they both co-authored the new report "all the president's , psychologists." nathaniel raymond, can you respond to what he said? >> what we now know by reading the american psychological association's e-mails is that his assertion and 2005 bring us the facts and we will respond directly contradicts his own words to the operational assessment division of the central intelligence the in 2004 where he basically says, we're not going to investigate in the context of the secret meeting

they had basically, to the day the white house was reauthorizing the enhanced interrogation program. we're not going to investigate any claims of abuse or any charges made at that meeting. that directly hundred ask what he said on democracy now! second his continued assertion that somehow the american psychiatric association, which endorsed in 2006 a clear and on participation in all interrogations, direct participation, is analogous to the apa position. that is entirely specious. the matter is, the position in that pens report that we now know was the direct result of the coordination with the intelligence community and in some cases, elements of that community writing link which and the report, critical research language is entirely different

to look at the apa position in the american psychological association position for one reason. the american psychological association based its policy on u.s. definitions of torture at that time, which we now know from the declassified office of legal counsel memos had an entirely different view of what constituted "torture" and what constituted cruel and degrading human treatment. saying those positions are the same is just not the facts. amy: explain what change. >> what changed was there was two periods of change. the first is immediately after 9/11, we have evidence in the publicgical association changed a large portion of its ethics code related to research. and basically, it wrote out international and domestic protections on consent for human subjects research. we know by different names, some

of those protections, such as the number code in the common role. -- nuremberg code and the common role. combined with the second set of changes, which is the 2005 pens report then not only allows, but exhorts psychologists to have a research role in not only interrogations, but this is the key sentence, amy -- in determining what constitutes cruel inhuman, degrading treatment. the last time i checked, psychologists were not lawyers. this was outside the professional competency of psychologists to make a legal determination based on research. the question is, why were they being asked to do that in language that we now know from the e-mails appears to have been written by the white house -- former white house official? the fact is, that is exactly what the bradberry memos that

were then protecting the bush administration from potential torture charges required. and that is exactly the concern that was being raised by the office of inspector general internally at cia we now do for the senate select committee on intelligence, so that one sentence about research into what constitutes cruel, inhuman, to grading treatment positions psychologists to be the legal heatshield for the president of the united states. amy: dr. reisner? >> well, we listen to dr. behnke say the apa is opposed to torture, cruel, inhumane integrating treatment. at the very moment when they are writing into our ethics code a policy that permits psychologists very presence at those sites researching overseeing, monitoring, that the psychologists being there is what makes it fall outside the definition of torture, cruel inhuman, integrating treatment

concocted of the justice department in order to legally allow the torture. so what we have is a working together between the psychologist's, the market psychological association, the cia, the white house, to create a cover story that says torture is not torture, that it is not legally torture under these rules. and while dr. behnke is coming psychologists don't torture, they are in fact torturing and the apa seems to know it, according to these e-mails, and according to what was in the press, but what he is doing is parsing the facts and funneling it through a bit in the distorted apa ethics code that has been changed simply to allow the program to continue. amy: i want to read another one

of the newly disclosed e-mails. this is from the director of science, policy at the apa two cia psychologist dr. kirk hubbard, who was then a cia senior behavioral scientist. muford wrote -- "i thought you and many of those copied here would be interested to know that apa grabbed the bull by the horns and released this [psychological ethics and national security] task force report today. i also wanted to semi-publicly acknowledgeyour personal contribution in getting this effort off the ground over a year ago. your views were well represented by very carefully selected task force members." in another e-mail from 2005, the apa dr. geoff mumford admitted former white house advisor susan brandon, who was then at the national institute of mental

health helped craft language for , the pens report. mumford wrote -- "susan serving as an observer (note she has returned to nimh at least temporarily) helped craft some language related to research and i hope we can take advantage of the reorganization of the national intelligence program, with its new emphasis on human intelligence, to find a welcoming home for more psychological science." nathaniel raymond, talk about who mumford is. talk about also the significance of the susan they're referring to, susan brandon, and her position today. >> well, geoff mumford, then and now, was executive director and is executive director of science policy at the american psychological association and while he is one of the most prominent officials in these e-mails, i want to make clear, he is not the only one. we also see the spokeswoman who denied any coordination during the apa and the bush administration and james resins

new york times story. we see steve behnke, and this is new to our report, we see the deputy ceo of apa was also cc'd on one of the e-mails about the secret 2004 meeting. dr. brandon then was, as you described, atnimh. national institutes of mental health. she served in a variety of roles from the department of defense and elsewhere but also had been, during the time of the planning of the 2003 conference that mitchell and jessen attended and apa employee, previously. now she is the chief scientist at the high-value interrogation group of fbi. and in that role, she is basically the senior interrogation research scientist in the u.s. government. and thus the high-value to interrogation group, which advises national security council at the white house is the leading interrogation group

in the intelligence community. what we have seen -- amy: she is heading now. what's right now. i think that is something that is been missed in the cupboard. this is not just about what happened five years ago, but about curly serving the obama administration official. and i want to say that mark fallon, the former assistant deputy of the naval incrimination -- amy: in cif. >> came out calling for an independent prosecutor in these matters, including issues raised in our report. he is serving as chair of the advisory group to the high-value interrogation group. i want to make a point that we have master interrogators, people who are affiliated with the current interrogation group who are raising real concerns about the allegations in our report and are saying, this is an old news. this has direct implications for accountability on these matters

involving, in this case, current administration official. amy: in 2007, a psychologist at on the dais before standing room only crowd at the annual american psychological association meeting. this came two years after she participated in an apa panel known as the pens task force that we have referred to today that concluded psychologists , working in interrogations play a "valuable and ethical role." dr. arrigo criticized the findings and makeup of the panel. quick six of the 10 members were highly placed in the department of defense, contractors and military officers. one was the commander -- their positions on two key items in the report were predetermined by their dod employment. these key items were, a permissive definition of torture in u.s. law versus the strict

version of international law. and second, participation a military psychologist in interrogation settings versus none participation. because of their employment, they have to decidedly. amy: that was arrigo. democracy now was covering these meetings is the ap even try to cut down public access to the parts of the meeting -- she served on the pens committee. but she served believing it was a committee of interested and knowledgeable psychologists to actually review ethics policy a national security. what she found was the task force seemed to have a predetermined agenda. that members of the agenda -- members were involved in the very commands that were

implicated in the abuse and that the majority of the conclusions seem to have already been drawn before they began. it was a guided operation. amy: she attempted to take notes during the meeting, is that right? >> that's right. and she was asked not to, which is totally bizarre for a meeting that is tried to generate a new policy. she was taking notes, participating as if it was a regular meeting -- it turned out the meeting was a meeting of, as the e-mails reveal, carefully selected members. and that e-mail was does the members were carefully selected in order, it seems, to guarantee what the cia and what the white house needed from that meeting, and that is what she realized and what she's talking about on that panel. amy: she talked about having a meeting for a few hours and then being handed the resolution of the committee before she'd even weighed in.

>> that's right. the drafts came fast and furious. this meeting lasted 2.5 days. in the very final draft where they added the piece on research, that came between the end of the meeting and 12 to 24 hours later, the final rewritten version was sent to members for them to just give their ok. they were told us had to go to the pentagon, had to go to the white house, it was hurried and there was very little room for critique. amy: nathaniel raymond, how do we -- who do we now know wrote the straps? >> we know from the pens and jean maria arrigo and others dr. behnke stephen behnke was responsible for being the keeper of the draft and during lunch breaks and in the evenings, wrote the language in the

report. at that is not the whole story. from what we see in the e-mails, as you mentioned, dr. brandon's role by dr. mumford and the research piece raises the broader question of, who were the observers in the room and how did they get there? what we see from the pens listserv of this task force that jean maria arrigo has helped the world to see that listserv shows that dr. gerald future and dr. barry anton, who is the current president right now of the apa, was responsible for approving the observers in the room. we now know one of those observers was a senior administration official who had never, and still now, never been publicly acknowledged by the apa as having been in the room. it is not just to his writing the report, dr. behnke, it was who put those other people secretly in the room?

we now know it was doctors anton cuture. amy: why were psychologists so important to this whole process? what was happening with the psychiatrists of the united states? what was happening with other positions? >> this is where it can get complicated sometimes. i want to try to express this as clearly as possible. in the enhanced interrogation program, you had two rolls for health professionals. these roles were conjoined. the first role was designing and implement in the tactics. that is what james mitchell and jane -- bruce jessen did. the second role is this monitoring indemnification role, to say we have not crossed this threshold of severe and long-lasting harm. now that role changes throughout the program. it begins with making sure line has a been crossed.

amy: explain his role. >> he was assistant attorney general for the office of legal counsel. john yew worked for him in that office, and he was responsible for primarily crafting the first torture memo. amy: at the university california berkeley law school. >> yes. and then we move forward in time. what we can see in these e-mails is at the time the apa was really working hard, its engine was going in overdrive on these issues between 2004 and 2005 in direct contact with the cia, yet another process going on, which is the creation of that new legal authorization that we now know george tenet asked for upon his resignation. and that is what we call the bradberry memo. in that memo, there is a significantly changed role for

the second group of health professionals putting mitchell and just an aside, the researchers. and it moves from them determining whether you crossed the line to determining the line . and to determine the line, that required research. and so we see in the bradberry memos clearly as we documented in the report, in 2010, is that they were having to look at the effect of the tactics to the whole detainee population over years and determine what the line was. because there's no clinical literature on torture. amy: last december, dr. james mitchell appeared on fox news to talk about his role in the waterboarding of abu zubaydah. he was interviewed by megyn kelly. >> abu zubaydah shut down. they asked me to come back to the campus, and it was clear to me when i was at the campus

listened to what people were saying, there was so much pressure about trying to head off the second way that was coming that they were going to use some kind of physical coercion. i spent a lot of time in the air force sears school and i see what happens when people make stuff up on the fly. and in the course of the conversations, i said, if you're going to use physical coercion -- not that you should use it -- but if you're going to use physical coercion, you should use physical coercion that has been demonstrated over 50 years not to produce the kinds of injuries we would like to avoid. >> were you the one actually conducting the techniques on abu zubaydah or were you in more of a background role? >> it depends on when you're talking about. initially, i was in a background role. and after we shut down and the enhanced interrogations were approved, i was in an

administration role. >> so did you personally waterboard him? >> yes. >> sticking with abu zubaydah for now, were all of the methods that were recited in the senate report like nudity, standing sick deprivation, the attention grab, the insult -- were those all used? >> the ones you mentioned were used. >> the facial grab, the of domino flab walling? >> walling was used. if they showed up on the list, they were used. we did not typically use a lot of those stress positions. we do not use any stress positions with abu zubaydah because he had an injury. amy: that was psychologist james mitchell was in the apa from 2001 to 2006, admitting on fox news he waterboarded abu zubaydah, the prisoner. dr. steven reisner, your

response to mitchell? >> this is chilling to listen to the description for the college is dedicated for the public good and individual well-being talking about destroying prisoner's mind and body. it was chilling to the medical professionals in the cia who are pushing back. it was chilling to the inspector general who was pushing back. the program was shut down. and just at that moment when the program was shut down, the office of legal counsel, the white house, some members of the cia and the immigrant psychological association, appeared to have all worked together to revive that program and to find the rationale for psychologist to be able to help that program continue. amy: what are you looking for now? what is the next step taking place right now with the american's ecological association? >> as we heard from senator feinstein when james risen plus article came out last week,

there is clear congressional interest in what happens next and she said in her statement that she is looking for to the results of the hoffman investigation, the independent review of alleged -- amy: is this independent? he is been hired by the americans psychological association? >> yes, it is called by the apa an independent review. dr. reisner and i and our co-authors have met extensively with dr. hoffman and the proof will be in the pudding when the report is released but right now, the next -- amy: to the apa said they would release the report? >> the big issue, the apa said the board will review it and after he reviews it, will release it. as we have been calling for, they need to review it -- release it to the public right now. if senator feinstein think she wants to see the report, there cannot be a halfstep of work is to the public will stop the key issue now is to put pressure on the mac and psychological

association to release the report to the public as soon as it is completed. amy: your response to what kirk hubbard said, who in a 2012 interview with the constitution project's task force on detainee treatment said that detainees are not patients, nor are they being treated by the psychologists, therefore, the ethical guidelines for clinicians do not apply my opinion. psychologists can play many roles and should not be forced into a narrow dr.-patient role. the declaration of helsinki and then rumberger, u.s. law, the geneva conventions, are not based on whether someone is a patient, based on whether someone is human being. the fact of the matter is that those codes were mingled and in some cases, written out of what the apa did. the issue is not about doctor-patient relationship here. it is about war crimes and

crimes against humanity, which are not contingent on someone being your patient. amy: i want to thank you but for being with us, nathaniel raymond and steven reisner co-authors of a new report "all the , we will link -- "all the president's psychologists." we will link to it on democracynow.org. we will be right back. ♪ [music break]

amy: guy carawan, "we shall overcome" died at the age of 87. this is democracy now! democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. as we turn now to yemen. more than 1000 people have died since the saudi-led bombing campaign began in late march. more than half of the victims are civilian, including 115 children.

the precise toll from the airstrikes is unknown, because many areas are hard to reach. but the u.n. and several major human rights groups have raised the possibility of war crimes in the scores of documented bombings so far. the u.s. has played a key role in the campaign, expediting weapons shipments and providing intelligence, including direct targeting support for the coalition's strikes. now human rights watch has accused the saudi-led coalition of dropping banned cluster bombs manufactured and supplied by the united states. cluster bombs contain dozens or even hundreds of smaller munitions designed to fan out over a wide area, often the size of a football field. they are banned under a 2008 treaty for the high civilian toll they can cause. the treaty was adopted by 116 countries -- although, not by saudi arabia, yemen, or the united states. according to human rights watch, the u.s.-supplied cluster bombs have landed near rebel-held villages in northern yemen putting residents in danger. on monday, the state department said it is looking into the report's allegations, adding it

takes all accounts of civilian deaths in the ongoing hostilities in yemen very seriously. for more, we are joined by two -- by steve goose director of , human rights watch's arms division. can you talk about what is happening right now in yemen? >> we documented airstrikes involving cluster munitions on april 17 and likely on april 27 as well. we don't know if ongoing strikes are crying right now because, as you say, it is difficult to get fresh information out of many of the areas. saudi arabia has acknowledged that they are using these weapons. they want to claim they're only using them against armored vehicles, but the treaty that bans these things doesn't ban them only in certain circumstances.

it is in all circumstances whether you think you're attacking armored vehicles were civilians. in the long run, it will affect civilians. that is been proven by their use in other countries prior to this ban treaty. amy: what is the role of the united states? >> with respect to the cluster missions, the was supply the central fused weapons. there are more advanced types of cluster munitions, but they are banned under the treaty. the u.s. nato allies are almost all part of this treaty and agreed these weapons that perhaps have a lower failure rate than some other cluster munitions, also need to be banned because they pose dangers to siblings. the u.s. applies them to saudi arabia and also to the united arab emirates, which is part of the coalition that is conducting airstrikes now. amy: belkis wille is yemen & kuwait researcher at human rights watch. she has been based in sanaa for the last two years and joins us

now from istanbul. can you talk about when you came to suspect that saudi arabia is using cluster munitions in yemen? >> thank you for having me. amy: i'm sorry, we're not hearing you. >> sorry. we've had concerns about the use of cluster munitions in this war because of the fact that saudi arabia actually used cluster munitions in 2009 when it participated in the war in northern yemen. on the first day of the war, we issued a press release calling on the saudi-led coalition to stay on the record that it would not be using cluster munitions in this war. a press conference the next day lead to a saudi spokesman saying they were not using cluster munitions. however, several days later, we received video footage that looked very much like cluster munitions were being dropped by coalition airstrikes in northern yemen.

and several days later, we received photo evidence that showed the actual munitions, including unexploded cluster munitions on the ground in a location 36 kilometers away. we were able to match through satellite imagery the exact location from where the film was done, so we were able to verify this was indeed a film made in yemen showing the landing of cluster munitions. unfortunately -- amy: unfortunately yes? we're going to have to go back -- go ahead. we're having trouble again. her audio stream is coming from istanbul turkey. steve, if you could take over from there. you both work with the same organization, human rights watch. what has been the u.s. and saudi response to the allegations that they're violating a treaty, not that their signatories to, the

u.s., yemen, saudi arabia are not part of that 2000 and cluster bomb treaty. >> yes, saudi arabia initially -- well, before we presented this evidence, they said they were not using cluster bombs. when they first saw our report they tried to deny these were cluster munitions, cluster bombs. in fact, these weapons clearly are captured by the addition of cluster mission in the 2008 banned treaty. the following day, they started saying, yes, we're using these particular weapons but we're only using them against armored vehicles. that is still a violation of the convention. they have not signed up, but this convention is creating new international standard of behavior which rejects any use under any circumstance. one of the big problems with cluster missions is not only that they spread out over huge area during strikes, and oftentimes kill and injure civilians during strikes, but many of the munitions don't explode when they're supposed to

and end up laying on the ground and acting as landmines. we've seen this kind of failure with these munitions as well. amy:g what about the civilian casualties and what you think needs to be done right now? >> we don't know what can of casualties these weapons have caused. as she was mentioning, we're photographic evidence and video evidence of the attacks themselves, but we have not been able to get to this area on the ground to do interviews and identify potential casualties. but you can bet there will be civilian casualties, that they do not occur during the attacks, then they will occur at a later date from the so-called duds daily on the ground and act like landmines. the u.s. had a very muted response of our, saying they're going to look into it. the u.s. should not be exporting any kind of cluster munitions to anybody, but it does have a ban in place on export of almost all cluster munitions except this particular type, because it is

one of the latest versions that in theory has a lower failure rate than others. we think the u.s. should abandon this loophole in its export prohibition. amy: steve goose, thank you for being with us director of human , rights watch's arms division. involved in the preparations and formal negotiations of the 2008 convention banning cluster munitions. he is also chair of the cluster munition coalition. i also want to thank belkis wille for joining us from is simple, turkey. yemen & kuwait researcher at human rights watch. that does it for today show. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]