05/16/16 05/16/16 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> in military termsthe u.s. is far a ay out ofight and beyond aone ee. american society, which is crucial for americans and also for the world in terms of u.s. power. on: today, gnome chomsky

--noam chomsky obama's war presidency, the climate crisis, the new nuclear arms race, and the 2016 election. >> bernie sanders is an extremely interesting phenomenon. has mobilized a large number of young people. these and people are saying, look, we're not going to consent anymore. if that turns into a continuing, organized, mobilized force, that could change the country. maybe for not -- not for this election, but longer term. amy: today, professor noam chomsky live for the hour. all of that and more coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. protests against the oil, coal, and gas industries erupted across multiple continents over the weekend as part of the global campaign to break free from fossil fuels.

in washington state, 52 people were arrested after blockading railroad tracks leading to two oil refineries. protesters pitched their tents on the tracks and occupied the bnsf railway tracks from friday afternoon until police broke up the encampment early sunday. >> this has been one of the most inspiring things i have ever been a part of in my life, i have to say. grip ofto break the fossil fuels on our economy. temperatures to 1.5 degrees celsius. there is no current plan anywhere in the world to do that. the only thing that has been proven time and again to bring about rapid and massive social change our mass disobedient movements. amy: meanwhile, hundreds of kayaktivists took to the waters to around the shell and tesoro refineries. they displayed a banner in front

of the refineries that read, "transition together." liz lafferty spoke out about why she decided to take the waters. >> i am here today because for the last 100 years, we have been spending our children's children's resources. it has been an insane act on our part to take resources that really belong to future generations and spend them as if we can replace those. they are irreplaceable resources. so i am out here -- anoer reason i'm out here, for democracy to work, you have to have an important populous. -- informed populace. we have been asleep for too long. amy: in upstate new york, thousands of people converged on the port of albany to protest shipments of explosive crude oil by rail in so-called "bomb trains."

the trains pass just yards behind a public housing complex in the new york state capital. albany council member vivian kornegay spoke about the action. people have come to us from vermont, massachusetts, connecticut, even maryland to be one unified voice with this small community. small communities across the country are getting together to make one unified voice and have that one unified voice heard from where we are today here in albany or wherever else these protests are happening to the white house to let them know the all communities are imcted an affected, and we are not going to go away until you hear from us and here that we want and deserve to have safe communities. we deserve to be able to breed clean air, drink clean water, and have our total be safe and free from the backdrop of an oil train when they play in the playground. amy: as part of the action in albany, new york saturday, many

, protesters sat down on the train tracks. in the early afternoon, two climbers suspended themselves from a railroad bridge, blockading a train from north dakota carrying crude oil. at least five people were arrested, including the two climbers marissa shea and maeve mcbride. mcbride described their action. >> orissa and i and another team of folks were able to drop a line over the railroad bridge this afternoon. [cheers] and stop mainline traffic in an oil train that was heading from essentially western new york down -- we just got our arraignment. the last thing the judge said to us when we left was, thanks for coming out. amy: protests against also fill in the impacts of climate change were held all over the week and from new zealand to south africa, new jury a were residents demanded a cleanup of

the niger delta to brazil to turkey to denver, colorado, to ecuador where participants planted trees on a future oil refinery site to protest a national park. demonstrators converged in los angeles and vancouver, canada in , west java, indonesia, where they dropped banners from machinery used to unload coal, and chicago to washington, d.c. in germany, more than 100 people were arrested after thousands gathered to shut down one of europe's largest lignite coal mines for two days. the protesters blocked rail access and made their way onto the grounds of a coal-fired power station. in another reminder of the fossil fuel industry's impact, a shell oil facility spilled about 90,000 gallons of crude oil into the gulf of mexico off the coast of louisiana. others say the spill has been contained and cleanup is underway. and in the latest sign of human-induced climate change driven by the fossil fuel industry, last month marked the

hottest april on record worldwide, crushing the previous high by the widest margin on record. it was the seventh month in a row to break global temperature records. in iraq, isis militants attacked a natural gas plant north of baghdad, killing at least a dozen people. more than have been killed in 120 isis attacks over less than a week. the attack began with a car bomb explosion then suicide , bombers entered the plant and fought with security guards before blowing themselves up. house speaker paul ryan has continued to offer guarded praise for presumptive republican presidential nominee donald trump. ryan praised a meeting on thursday between trump and republican leaders, but said more work remains to unify the republican party. >> it is no secret that donald and i have had some disagreements. it is no secret we from time to time clashed on an issue or two depth. that happens with people.

the question is, can we put together a process that really actually helps get our party unified so we are full strength in the fall? based upon the meetings on thursday, and encouraged for the beginning of this process. amy: donald trump is facing renewed scrutiny over his treatment of women, including reports he raped his ex-wife ivana in a fit of rage. ivana trump made the accusation in a deposition. however, in the book, "lost tycoon: the many lives of donald j. trump," trump's lawyers insisted a statement by ivana trump be placed in front of book which read -- "i referred to this as a 'rape,' but i do not want my words to be interpreted in a literal or criminal sense." the "new york times" has interviewed dozens of women who interacted with trump, from a beauty pageant contestant who said trump kissed her on the lips, to a woman executive who said trump commented on her weight, telling her -- "you like your candy." rowanne brewer lane, a model who dated trump, said he asked her to change into a swimsuit almost

immediately after meeting her at a pool party at his florida mansion. trump is known for his disparaging language against women, calling comedian rosie o'donnell's face fat and ugly, and saying fox news host megyn kelly asked him tough questions because she was menstruating. asked about trump's reported history of disrespecting women during a fox news sunday interview with chris wallace, republican national committee chair reince priebus initially said no one cares. >> well, you know, a lot of things bother me, chris, obviously, i'm the wrong person to be asked that particular question. >> wait a minute, why you the wrong person? this is your nominee and they're saying he has mistreated women over the years. working on have been this primary for over a year, chris. i have got to tell you, i think

that all of the stories that come out, and they come out every couple of weeks, people just don't care. i think people look at donald trump and they and hillary clinton and say, who is going to bring an earthquake to washington, d.c.? amy: a major boost to donald trump, billionaire casino magnate and republican megadonor sheldon adelson has told trump in a private meaning he could donate upwards of $100 million in order to help get trump elected. adelson reportedly said he was willing to contribute more to trump than he has to any previous campaign. president obama took aim at donald trump's racist rhetoric as he delivered the commencement address at rutgers university in new jersey. obama criticized trump's call to ban all muslims from entering the united states. >> isolating or disparaging muslims, suggesting they should be treated differently when it comes to entering this country, just a betrayel of

are, ites, of who we wod alienate the very communities home and abroad who are most important partners in our fight against violent extremism. amy: on the democratic side, hillary clinton and bernie sanders face off in primaries in kentucky and oregon tuesday. republicans also have their primary in oregon. venezuelan president nicolas maduro extended a state of emergency in venezuela for another 60 days and accused the united states of working to oust him from power. maduro said his right-wing opponentin venezuela have been emboldened by the ouster of brazilian president dilma rousseff. like brazil, venezuela, has been embroiled in an economic crisis. triggered by low oil prices, the crisis has seen water shortages, blackouts and the instatement of

, a two-day work week for government employees. president maduro issued his decree on friday. >> i decree today, friday the 13th of may, a state of economic emergency in order to defend the country. here is the decree am assigned an approved for the protection of our country. once this is published in the next few minutes, this new degree will go into effect. i maintain the constitutional power to defend the country against the threat of an economic war. amy: meanwhile in brazil, protests continue over the legislature's vote to suspend president dilma rousseff and put her on trial. rousseff is accused of tampering with government accounts to hide a budget deficit. but she has accused her right-wing opponents of fomenting a coup. her replacement has instated an all-white male cabinet charged with implementing

corporate-friendly policies. rousseff said the new government is illegitimate. >> i believe we are seeing a new concept with regards to the presidential system in latin america. i think it is a mixture come as military coups are out of fashion. there is a problem for all regimes, like under the presidential system in which there is a fixed state for it to begin and end. amy: el salvador has refused to recognize the new brazilian government that replaced president dilma rousseff. el salvador's president salvador sanchez ceren said rousseff's ouster had "the appearance of a coup d'etat." in spain, thousands took to the streets to mark the fifth anniversary of the indignados movement. on may 15, 2011, the mass movement erupted against unemployment, austerity, the big banks and the political system. , the indignados helped inspire the occupy movement and the emergence of the political party podemos.

the protest comes as spain heads for new elections last month following a political deadlock after december elections resulted in a spanish parliament divided between podemos, the socialist, and the ruling people's party. the pharmaceutical giant pfizer has taken steps to bar the use of its drugs in executions. in a statement, pfizer said the coany "strongly objects to the use of its products as lethal injections for capital punishment." about two dozen other u.s. and european drugs firms have -- drug firms have adopted similar restrictions. the human rights group reprieve says all fda-approved manufacturers of execution drugs have now blocked their sale for use in executions, potentially forcing states to go underground if they want to buy the drugs. and palestinians marked the 68th anniversary of the nakba, or what they call the catastrophe, when hundreds of thousands of palestinians were displaced during the period around

israel's declaration of statehood. in the west bank city of ramallah, residents re-enacted the movement of refugees, carrying suitcases and baskets. in bethlehem, demonstrators created a mock train bearing the names of cities where palestinians lost their homes. israeli soldiers fired tear gas and stun grenades at the train and its accompanying marchers. and those are some of the headlines. this democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we're on the road here in new york, then on today to canada, to madison, wisconsin, and then to toronto, canada. the "new york times" is reporting president obama has just passed a little-noticed milestone. he has now been at war longer than any president in u.s. history -- longer than george w. bush, longer than franklin d. roosevelt, longer than abraham lincoln. obama has taken military action

in at least seven countries -- iraq, afghanistan, libya, syria, pakistan, yemen, and somalia. just last month, president obama announced the deployment of 250 more special operations troops to syria in a move that nearly doubles the official u.s. presence in the country. as war spreads across the globe, a record 60 million people were driven from their homes last year. experts warn the refugee crisis may also worsen due to the impacts of global warming. over the weekend, nasa released data showing 2016 is on pace to be by far the hottest year ever, breaking the 2015 record. april became the seventh month in a row to have broken global temperature records. meanwhile, many fear a new nuclear arms race has quietly begun as the united states, russia, and china race to build arsenals of smaller nuclear weapons. these multiple crisis come as voters in the united states prepare to elect a new president. to make sense of the challenges

facing the globe and the state of the u.s. election we are joined now by the world's preeminent intellectuals, noam chomsky. institute professor emeritus at massachusetts institute of technology where he has taught more than half a century. his latest book is called "who , rules the world?" noam chomsky, welcome back to democracy now! >> glad to be with you again. amy: who rules the world? >> to signet -- to a certain extent, it is up to us. it is possible for populations to rule the world, but they have to struggle to achieve that. and if they don't, the world will be ruled by concentrations of power econom power, ate powe, closely nked with consequences that are of the kind that you describe. but that is a choice.

statesw does the united set the terms of the global discourseand overl, what is happening in the world? >> well, that is basically an outcome of the second world war. at the end of the second world war, the united states had a level of ou-- per and tt it had not had in history. it literally had half of the world's wealth. it had an incomparable position of security, controlled the hemisphere, controlled both oceans, controlled the opposite sides of both oceans. the military terms, it was overwhelmingly preeminent. other industrial societies had been devastated or severely weekend. the war had actually grely ,enefid the u. ecomy

a debt that it could easily go out of it by growth. the u.s. was in fact in a position to pretty much set the terms for vtually tntire global system. could n stay th way, of courseand it began t erode pretty quickly. though it is with all the changes over the past years, the united states still is in a preeminent position with incomparable advantages and maybe now one quarter of the world'sealth. in military terms, on that dimension the united states is the only country that has hundreds, maybe 1000 military bases around the world, troops all over the world. u.s. military spending is almost as great as the rest of the world combined, technologically,

much more advanced. pastn that context of the 70 years or so, the united prettyhas had, usually, dominant role in world affairs and setting me framework within which those operate, not without conflict, of course. amy: you talk about the two major threat facing the world today -- nuclear war and climate change. talk about each. >> well, i might start by ,eferring to the doomsday clock a clock that since 1947, shortly after the atomic bomngthe esblished omsdaylock eve yeara panelf spealists make an estimate of how close we are to midnight. midnight means termination for

the species. moved up and back over the years. right now, just last year it was moved two minutes closer to midnight because of the two year, you mentioned this three minutes to midnight, closer than it has been since the early 1980's when there was a major war scare that was recognized then to be serious. now thatussian ahives ha been oned, we e it wasar re serio than waassumed. we were at one int lerally nutes away, several points in fact, minutes away from nuclear war. that is where the doomsday cck stands now. n thelear teat - ssian border, which happens to be the invasion route through which russia was virtually destroyed twice last century by

germany alone, and germany as part of a hostile military alliance -- on that border, both sides are acting as if a war is thinkable. the u.s. has just sharply increased, quadrupled military expenses on its side. the russians are doing something similar. there are constant near collisions, jets coming close to colliding with one another. a russian jet a couple of months ago virtually fit a danish commercial airliner -- hit a danish commercial airliner. u.s. troops are trying out maneuvers virtually on the russian border. that threat is escalating and very serious. , respected nuclear specialist, former defense secretary, recently estimated the threat is higher than it was

during the 1980's. there are also confrontations near the chinese were arod the uth chinsea and n. that ione majothreat. the other is what you just described, the threat of global warming is very serious. every time one reads a science journal, there is an even more alarming discovery of virtually areofhe icmasses melting. e arcti was condered toe stab, buts actual melting very fas much mo than w no meltitherea severe droughts. a ready right now to about 300 million people in india are o the ee of starvion from

ought, wch has bn going for years. the groundwater is depleted as the himalayan glaciers melt as they are doing -- it will undermine the water supply for huge areas in south asia if people think there's a migration crisis now, they haven't seen anything. the sea level is rising. chances are could rise three feet to six feet, maybe more. could happen by the end of the century, some estimate even sooner. it could have a devastating effect, not just on coastal cities, but on coastal plains like say bangladesh where hundreds of millions of people will be severely threatened. kling other spies at t level othe soalled si tinction. 65 mlion yea agohen an asteroid hit the earth,

devastating consequences in the age of the dinosaurs opened the way for small mammals to develop, ultimately, you bald into -- you bald into homo sapiens, which is now aing the same w the asteroidead. at is thfifth extinctn. -- e rate of obal warng todays far faer,aybe00 timesr more ster tha any merately comparab period thacan be timated the geogical reco. , of the torse huhreats, have ectoral extravaganza going on right now. and it is pretty remarkable to see the worst threats that the

human species has ever faced. the most important decisions it must make, and soon, are virtually absent from the discussions and debes on theemocratiside, the are a couple of comments about it here or there, not much. on the republican side, it is much worse. every single candidate either denies global warming altogether, or in one case, it meant it is taking place but says we should not do anything about it. to go to break. when we come back, we will play the last remaining republican in the race, donald trump, his comments on climate change and get your take over all on the 2016 presidential election here in the united states. noam chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, linguist, and author. has a new book out called "who , rules the world?"

stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: performing in albany, new york, part of a wave of actions against also feels around the world. -- against fossil fuels around the world. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. noam chomsky world-renowned , political dissident, linguist, and author, his latest book "who , rules the world?" let's turn to the presidential election and a clip of the presumptive front-runner donald trump speaking last month when he dismissed concerns about climate change. >> president obama said the biggest threat to our country is global warming. give me a break. the biggest threat to our country is nuclear. and we cannot let iran get a nuclear weapon. any code that was donald trump. noam chomsky, your response to that comment and donald trump overall as a possible president of the united states? >> is a pretty scary prospect.

or one thing, it is not easy to find out what he thinks. it is not even clear he know what hthinks. kindf a loos cnon. all caps statements come out. sometimes some statement plus mitigation of that statement it within a few minutes. it is nd of con job. there are some pretty steady features of his position, which, in fact, were expressed in the clip you ran. one, there isn't any global warming. give me a break. that is not an issue. what he is saying is, race to the precice as qckly as cannd we shld not -- this is not abstract. it is already having major effects for the republican position. it is00% of the republican candidates taking essentially the same position.

what they're saying, let's get rid of the epa and regulations it's all a ke, libel hoax, and on. th is havi an effect. the paris conference last december, aimed at establishing a treaty which countries would be committed to adhere to which would put fixed limits on global warming. the limits were nowhere near enough, but at least it was something. and even that could not be reached. for one clear explicit reason -- the republican congress, which would not accept a treaty. that was accepted worldwide. therefore, a hope for a treaty and in place was put voluntary agreements, obviously, much weaker. when republicans on the supreme court just recently beat back a --tty moderate proposed

obama regulation on cold, again, the message to the world say don't botheroing anying agn. the ggest, mt powerf countrdoesn't carso you g ahead d do whayou like this iall litallyaying, t's rai to therecipice and it is not remote. it is not a matter of centuries, it is a matter of decades. its just shocking to see this happening. that did mention correctly nuclear weapons are very serious threat, and you picked the absolute worst possible -- he picked the absolute worst possible example. iran is not a threat, period. the world does not regard iran as a threat. that is a.s. obseion. ifou look polls oglobal inion tany glup'

inteational affilie, one o the questions they ask is, wch couny is thereatest teat toorld peace? answe -- thunited stes, by huge mgin. iran is rely menoned. cond pla is pakista inflat by the iianote that is way bond the uted stat. that iworld opinion. and there are reasons for it. americans are protected from this information. the media literally did not report it. you hear it on bbc or you configured up on the international press -- or you can pick it up on international press. iran has never been -- the threat ofiran, so-called, exactly described pretty clearly by the u.s. intelligence. what they have made clear is the threat of iran's nuclear programs, not nuclear weapons,

they don't have any, but the threat of iran's nuclear programs is that they might serve as a deterrent in the region. what does that mean? it means the states they carry out regular aggression and violence in the region might be deterred if iran has the capability of someday producing nuclear weapons. which states are those? the united states and israel. so iran might be a deterrent to the two rogue states that rampage in the region. that is the threat. if there was any concern for the threat, real concern, there would be clear, straightforward ways to eliminate it. amely, moveto eablish nuclear weapons-free zone in the middle east. now that -- there are countries that advocate.

primary among them are is iran . it has been leading me call for nuclear weapons-free zone. it is strongly supported by the arab states. making steps towards it? because the united states blocks it. why does the u.s. block it? well, understood, it was to protect israel's nuclear weapons capacity from scrutiny and accountability. thats the nuear threain the gion, noran. so, yes, in fac trump d not .o on to give his answer what he says he means, we have to rapidly build up our military forces, which are already overwhelming. trillioready has a $1 prograoutline r modeization nuclear

weapons,hich incdes whatou mentned for kley earli, -- directly earlier, small nuclear weapons which are regarded by specialists correctly as a very serious threat because he will be a temptation to use them and it is almost certain that any use is going to quickly escalate and that doomsday clock goes right to midnight. so trump is saying, let's make the global warming problem as dangerous and imminent as possible. let's march toward the destruction of the species like we're destroying everyone else. ,nd let escalate militarizion and at the same time, sharply cut down resources by radical tax cuts, mostly for the rich, which means essentially eliminate pretty much the rest of the government incidentally. in that position, he is not very different from paul ryan who is consider the intellectual on the

republican side. this is a really astonishing moment in human history if you look at it. amy: noam, i what to turn back to the democratic debate that was held here in brooklyn. bernie sanders and hillary clinton sparred over the issue of israel and palestine. this exchange begins with a question from moderator wolf blitzer. >> secretary clinton, do you agree with senator sanders that to palestiniants attacks and that in order for there to bp's between israel and the palestinians, israel must "end its disproportionate responses"? >> i can say right now i have been there with israeli ficials ing backore than seekars, that they do not this kind of attacks. they do not invite rockets raining down on their towns and villages. so i don't know how you run a country when you are under

constant threats, terror attacks, rockets coming at you. you have a right to defend yourself. let me say this, if yasser arafat had agreed with my husband at camp david in the late 1990's to the offer that prime minister barack put on the table, we would've had a palestinian state already. >> go ahead, senator. >> i don't think that anybody would suggest that iael invites or welcomes missiles flying into their country. that is not the issue. and you invaded the answer. your fate of the question. the question is, not does israel have aight to spond, n does iael hava right go after terrorists and destroy terrorism, that is not the debate. was their response disproportionate? i believe it was. yet not answer that. there comes a time when we

pursue justice and peace, we're are going to have to say that netanyahu is not right all of the time. amy: that was bernie sanders and hillary clinton on the issue of israel and palestine. your response? >> it is interesting, helpful that sanders said that. by world standards, it is way -- i don'textreme know what dimension to call it, the nationalist right. the question of israel's disproportionate response is a little bit like the question of expansion of the settlements. the only one you are allowed to discuss here. these are not the questions. the question is, why is there a response at all? why are there any settlements? the settlements are totally illegal. that has been determined by the highest authorities, security

council, international court of justice, the red cross, the geneva conventions. there's sily no question about their legality. t one pot, the u. also agreed they were illegal. now they just say it is an obstacle to peace. mr. of the disproportionate response. so let's take the allege missil. first of all, there are not any missiles. the so-called rocket attacks. why are they coming? you look at the record, going through it in detail and print if you want to look at it, it is in the book you just mentioned, in fact. consistently whahas happened is this -- a cease-fire agreement is reached between hamas and isrl. the rms are ways abo the same. the siege, no more military action, beginning of commercial relations and so on, israel -- hamas lives up to the terms. israel totally disregards them.

maintains the siege, the brutal siege, continues with military actions. finally, some escalation in israeli attacks leads to a hamas response. at that point, we get another episode of what israel politely calls mowing the lawn. each one worse than the glass. then we get the question here, is israel's response disproportionate? i mean, if it weren't so grotesque, it would be comical. the question is,hy is israel maintaining a harsh, brutal, vicious siege which is destrong gaza, nsistent olating e cease-fire agreements that it rches, an thenhen therare some reonse to s escalang crimes, carries out monstrous attack while its protector debates whether the response is

disproportionate? is right here.m as long as the united states continues to support all of this, it is going to continue. incidentally, the u.s. support for israeli actions is not only supporting violations of international law, it is explicitly violating u.s. law. take a look at u.s. law. so-called lady law. it flatly bars military -- dispatch of military equipment to any military group that is involved in consistent human rights violations. there is simply no doubt the israeli army is involved in extremely serious human rights violations consistently. that is why organizations like amnesty international and if i recall correctly, human rights watch have called for a ban on sending weapons to israel.

in accord with u.s. law, incidentally. yes, if the united states lived up to u.s. law, if it stopped providing the decisive support for the settlement activities it claims it is opposed to for other repression and violence, then there wouldn't be any need for any response, certainly, not dispropoionate rponse. authorlinton's famous mrs. clinton may remember tt clinn himself recognized that it was inadequate a couple of months later in december. after camp david, he issued what he called his parameters for a settlement, both sides accepted them. both sides had reservations. israel had extreme reservations. they were to negotia these in

january 2001. negotiations took place. they were called off by israel at a point where the negotiators, at least, say they were coming pretty close to an agreement. an agreement was much less extreme on the pro-israel side than the clinton proposals. barackrime minister himself has said informally that the israeli negotiators had no authority to do go shoot anything, so it was kind of a show. amy: i want to go back to the candidates on this issue, particularly what hillary clinton had to say to aipac earlier this year when she criticized the bds movement, the boyct, divestment, sanctions movement. >> as i wrote last year and a letter to the heads of major american jewish organizations,

we have to be united in fighting back against bds. many of its proponents have demonized israeli scientist and .ntellectuals, even students to all of the college students who may have encountered this on stay strong.e you keep speaking out. don't let anyone silence you, bully you, or try to shut down debate, especially in places of learning like colleges and universities. [cheers and applause] anti-semitism has no place in any civilized society. not in america, not in europe, not anywhere. , canofeor noam omsky

you respd to presidential candidate hillary clinton? >> some of what she said is quite accurate. strongly, very happy that she has agreed that one should not shut down debate on this on campus. she is about 40 years too late. over the past decades, i've had .lenty of experience the few other people who talk about this have similar experience. of trying to give talks on the topic of university campuses with police protection, with meetings broken up violently, with airport-style security at entrances. even of my own university until not long ago, not only did there have to be a police presence, but the police insisted on walking me back to my car just because of the threat of olence. so that has been going on for decades. and it is very nice that mrs.

clinton finally decided coming yes, maybe it would be nice to have free and open debate on campus. as there is nowor the first time. and it is a good thing that there is, that there is now a possibility of free and open debate on campuses. ,ou can find, if you search marginal cases of excesses. it reminds me of back around 1970 when people like seymour martin were desperately searching through local black newspapers to see if they could find an anti-semitic comments somewhere so they could then condemn the black movements as anti-semitic. i can understand the game. but the fact of the matter now is, for the first time, there is free, open, extensive discussion and debate on campus. butperfect by any means,

radically different from before. ando the tactics of boycott investment, they make perfect make -- divestment, they perfect sense. when the presbyterian church imposes a boycott and divestment on anything connected to the israeli occupied territories, ,ncluding u.s. multinationals that's critical, which are involved in the territories, that is a very positive step forward. not only supportive of international law, supportive of genuine moral principles, significant act, nonviolent act to oppose the brutality, violence, and repression, we could, i think, go much further. as i said, we should be calling for implementation of u.s. law,

along joining amnesty international and others to call for an end to u.s. military aid to israel. boycott and sanctions make perfectly good sense when these tactics are properly applied, as they often are. you can understand why hillary clinton is frightened of them. they might undmine theolicy her husba and his edecesso and obama as well to support israeli violence and aggression. to protect israeli nuclear weapons from scrutiny so we can't have a nuclear weapons-free zone in the region to veto security council resotions, which lerally support official u.s. policy as obama did in february 2011 all-steah, theonviolen actions to undermine ts

legitimate actions, of course frighten her clinton enormously. but one part was correct, namely, a good idea to protect the right of free discussion and debate on campus. it is a shame that never occurred to her for the past 40 years when it was impossible to have a debate and discussion without violence, police protection, and so on. amy: i want to go to break and then ask you who you are supporting in this presidential race. noam chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, linguist, and author. he is institute professor emeritus at massachusetts institute of technology. his latest book "who rules the , world?" stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

our guest for the hour is noam world-renowned political dissident, linguist, and author. he is institute professor emeritus at massachusetts institute of technology. his latest book "who rules the , world?" that is an interesting question. who do you support? >> before answering that, let me just make one comment on elections. they are important will stop it does matter who sits in the white house, who appoints supreme court justices, who makes decisions about war and peace, about environment and so on. it matters who is in congress, whose in the state legislatures and so on. it matters, but it is not the main issue. we are kind of indoctrinated here into focusing all of our attention on energy, on what

button we push in november, every couple of years. it is not insignificant, but not the main issue. the main issue, what are the forces -- domestic forces that are pressuring, acting to determine the kind of choices that will be made, legislation that will be passed, and so on. of course, there's always one force that is going to be there in a private concentrated capital -- corporate power. lobbyists, corporate lawyers and so forthwaiting legislatio. they are funding the elections and will always be there. the question is, is there going to be a countervailing force? is there going to be a force represented popular interest, needs, and concerns defending themselves against what in fact is standard class-based assault against them? and now elections can be used as

a way of galvanizing and mobilizing the kinds of groups which will -- could become persistent, dedicated growing, constant forces that influence significantly what is done in the white house and congress. the new deal legislation would not have been passed him a for example, would not have even been initiated without miller labor -- militant labor action. those are lessons to remember. but now going back to who should you push the button for, well, in the primaries, would prefer bernie sanders. iflinton i nomated andt cometo a choe betwe clintoand tmp, in a sng state, state wheret is when a matt which w you vot i

byld votegainst trump and elementary arithmetic, that would means you hold your nose and vote democrat. i don't think there's any other rational choice, other than saying voting for a candidate you prefer, a minority can a day. it just amounts to a vote for donald trump, which i think is a devastating prospect for reasons i have our dimension. significance of the senator's campaign, which is pretty remarkable i think some it is certain he surprised me, it is not radical. sanders himself is pretty much a tradional nedeal democrat. criticism, that in but doesn't pretend to be anything else and that is a breath of fresh air in the current generally right-wing climate. but the importance of it is, if

it can be used, the energy and enthusiasm that has been organized and mobilized can be used to develop an ongoing popular movement, which will be powerful force the matter who is in office, to influence and direct the country in ways that are absolutely necessary, even for survival at this point. that is my view of it. amy: do you think there is any possibility that bernie sanders, the man u prefer, the candidate you prefer, could be the candidate? >> it is possible, i guess. i ould say i have been wrong all along, both about sanders and trump. i never thought either of them would get anywhere. in makingood company this predictions, but they were

wrong. i could be wrong again. but i think the probabiliti -- there isn't a lot of point speculating. we will see how we can try to reach the conclusions we want, the outcomes that we want. amy: and what do you think donald trump is tapping into him and what do you think of his statements? you know, waffling on whether he would disavow support of known klan leader, david duke, the about why supmacist, ying th no mlims canome into this country? whether not he ns, what affect wl this he? >> well, i think -- i should say this is not new. this is something that has been around for a long time. views brought it into open , but it has been there. probably 15 years ago, early 2000's in a book of mine, i

quoted an article, it an interesting article, worth going back and reading, but one of the leading historians of modern germany fred stern, it appeared in the main establishment journaloreign aairs, wain secr, calledomethingike "dissent into barbarism." it was discussion about how germany in the 1920's had been the peak of western scintillation -- civilization. a decade later, the depths of human history and how did it descend into barbarism. he discusses it. he says -- he pointedly says that he has concerns about the country that gave him refuge from nazi germany and every point that he makes is an oblique reference to what was happening in the united states 15 years ago.

these are deep elements of u.s. society. but the appeal of trump is not only to racism, which is very profound, ultra nationalism, which is very profound, fear -- it is one of the most terrified countries in the world and has been through much of its history. it is part of the reason for the extraordinary gun culture. it is not only that, he he is also appealing to pretty much the same kind of things that sanders is a billing to. in his case, it happens to be the mostly white working class. amy: we have five seconds. >> he's appealing to the fact that people have an cast aside by the neoliberal assault of the past generation. amy: we will continue this and post show and post it online and pay -- played on air at democracynow.org. noam chomsky world-renowned , political dissident, linguist, and author. his latest book is titled "who rules the world?"

i will be in tuesday night and in chicago with jeremy scahill. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 ú

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