09/05/16 09/05/16 [captioning made possible amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> i don't think it makes any difference. the tpp p is going to go throug, whether itit's donald trump or hillary c clinton. endless war is gngng to b be continueued, whether itit's trump or clinto. we're not going to get our privacy back, whether it's under clinton or trump. >> i just want to say, equating donald trump and hillary clinton is absolute nonsense. i justst -- anybody who equates the two of them is notot paying attention. and it's dangerous kind of talk. amy: today, a fiery debate between pulitzer prize winning journalist chris hedges and former clinton labor secretary robert reich. hedges has endorsed the green party's jill stein,

while reich is backing clinton after endorsing bernie sanders during the primaries. then "the making of donald trump." we will speak to pulitzer prize winning journalist david cay johnston, who has covered trump, for decades. >> trump talalks as if the president's a dictator. when he ran casinos, he didn't know the games. he didn't know the odds. he didn't know how to handle customers. all he knew how to do was take money out of the organization, which weakened it, and that's's why his casininos were among the first to fold. amy: all that and more,, coming up. welcome to demococracy nowow!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. today, a holiday special looking at the presidential election. mr. trump: whehen mexico sends its people, they are not sending their best. they're bringing drugs. they are bringing crime. they are rapists. mrs. clinton: i have saiaid repeatatedly, i want those e-mails out. nobody has a bigger interest in getting them released than i do.

trump: we're going to have a wall. we're going to have a wall. amy: today a fiery debate between the pulitzer prize winning journalist chris hedges and former labor secretary robert reich. chris hedges is the author of many books, including "wages of rebellion: the moral imperative of revolt." he has endorsed the green party's dr. jill stein for president. robert reich is backing hillary clinton after endorsing bernie sanders during the primaries. reich served in bill clinton's cabinet as labor secretary from 1993 to 1997. he now teaches at uc berkeley. his most recent book is "saving capitalism: for the many, not the few." juan gonzalez and i spoke to chris hedges and robert reich during the democratic national convention inin philadelphia. we began with robertrt reich.. >> this is a a very agonizininge for bernie sanders. i, with a great t deal of reluctance initially,

because i'i've known hillary clinton n for 50 years -- 50 years -- endorsed bernie sasanders and worked my heart out for him, as manany, many people did. and so at this particular juncture, you know, there's a great deal of sadness and a great deal of feeling of regret. bubut having worked soso long and so many years for basically the progressive ideals that bernie sanders stands for, i can tell y you that the movemt is going to continue. in fact, it's going to grow. and right now, at this particular point in time, i just don't see any alternative but to support hillary. i know hillary. i know her faults, i know her strengths. i think she will make a great president. i supported bernie sanders because i thought he would make a better president for the system we need. but nonetheless, hillary clinton is going to be the nominee. i support her. and i support her not only because she will be a good president,

if not a great president, but also, frankly, because i i am tremendously worried abouout the alternrnative. and the alternative, really, as a practical matter, is somebody who is a megalomaniac and a bigot, somebody who will set back the progressive movement decades, if not more. amy: chris hedges? >> well, reducing the election to personalities is kind of infantile at this point. the fact is, we live in a system that sheldon wolin calls inverted totalitarianism. it's a system where corporate power has seized all of the levers of control. there is no way to vote against the interests of goldman sachs or exxonmomobil or raytheon. we've lost our privacy. we've seen, under obobama, an assault against civil libertiess ththat has outstripppped what george w. bush c carried out.. we've e seen the executive branh misinterpret thth2001 authohorization

to usese military force act as giving itself the right to assassinate american citizens, including children. i speak of anwar al-awlaki's 16-year-old son. we have bailed out the banks, pushed throughgh programs of austerity. this has been a bipartisan effort because they'v've both been capturured by corporate e pow. we have undergrgone what john ralslston saulul correctly calls a corporate coup d'état in slow motion, and it's over. i just came back from poland, which is a kind of case study of how neoliberal poison destroys a society and creates figures like trump. poland has gone, i think we can argue, into a neofascism. first, it dislocated the working class, de-industrialized the country. then in the name of austerity, it destroyed public institutions, education, public broadcasting. and then it poisononed the political sysystem. and we are now watching, in poland, them create a 30,000 to 40,000 armed militia.

you know, they have an army. the parliament, nothing workrks. and d i think ththat this s poll systemem in the united states has seized up in exactly the same form. so is trump a repupugnant personalality? yes. although, i would argue that in terms of megalomania and narcissism, hillary clinton is not far behind. but the point is, we've got to break away from -- which is exactly the narrative they want us to focus on. we'v've got to breakak away from political perersonalitits and understand and examine and critique the structures of power. and, in fact ththe democratic party, especially beginning under bill clinton, has carried water for corporate entities as assiduously as the republican party. this is something that ralph nader understood long before the r rest of us, and steppeped out very courageously in 2000. and i think we will lookok back on t that period and find ralph to bebe an amazingly prophetetic figur

nobody undnderstands c corpore popower better thahan ralph. anand i think now people have c caught up with ralplph. and thisis is, of coursese, why i support dr. stein and the green party. we have to r remember that 10 years ago, s syriza, whicich controls the greek government,, was s polling at exaxactly ththe same s spot that the green party is polling now -- about 4%. we've got to break out of this idea that we can create systematic change within a particular election cycle. we've got to be willing to step out into the political w wildernes, perhaps, foror a decade. but on the issues of climate chahange, on the i issue of the structctin of civivil liberties, includining our right to pririvacy -- and i spspeak as a formerr investigative journalist, which doesn'n't exist anymoree becaususe of wholesale government surveillance ---- wewe have no ability, exexcept for hackers.. i meanan, this whohole debate over the wikikileaks is insasa. didid russia? i've p printed classifified mati

that was given to me by the mosossad. but i never exposed that mossad gagave it to me.e. is what was pupublished true or untrue?? anand the fact is,ouou know, in those l long emails -- you should r read them. they're appalling, includining calling dr. cornel west "trash." it is -- the whole --- it exposeses the way the system was rigged, within -- i'm talking ababout the democratatic party - -- the denial of independents, the superdelegates, the stealing of the caucus in nevada, the huhuge amounts of corporarate money and super pacs that flowed into the clintnton campaign. the fact is, clinton has a trtrack recordrd, and d it's one that has abandoned children. i mean, , she and her husband deststroyed welfare as w we kno, and 70% of the original recipients were children. this debate over -- i don't like trump, but trump is not the phenomenon. trump is responding to a phenomenon created by neoliberalism.

and we may get rid of trump, but we will get something even more vile, maybe ted cruz. amy: robert reich, i remember you, on democracy now!, talking about your time as laboror secretatary when president clinton signed off on welfare e reform, and you described walkining the streetets of washington, d., wondndering where the prprotests were,e, thatat you had virorously objected. and it was also an issue, a bill that hillary clinton had supported. so canan you respond to chris hedges on these three points, including,g, so you take a walk in the political wilderness fofor a littlele while? >> well, amy, it's not just taking a walk in the political wilderness. if donald trump becomes president,t, ifif that's what you're referriring to, i think it is -- there are irrevocable negative changes that will happpp in the united d states, including appointments to the supreme court, ththat will not be just politicacal wilderness, that will actually change and worsen t the structure of this countrtry.

i couldn't't agree with c chris hedges more about his crititique, overall, of neoliberalisism and a lot of the structural proboblems that we facece in our political economy totoday. i've written about them. but i've done more than write aboutut them. i've actually been in the center of power, and i hahave been doing eveveryg i can as an indidividual and also as a mobilizer and orgaganizer of otherers to tryry to change what we now have. i i think that voting for donaldld trump or eququating hihillary clclin with donald trump is insane. donald trump is certainly a prododuct of a kind of system and a systematic undermining that has occurred in the united states for years with regard to inequality of income and wealth and political power. but we don't fight that by simply saying, "all right, let's just have donald trump and hope that the system improves itself

and hope that things are so bad that actually people rise up in armed resistance." that's insane. that's crazy. what w we have to do is be -- we've got to be very, very strategic as progressives. we've gogot to look at the long term. we've got to understand that bernie sanders brought us much h further alonong than we were befefore the sanders campaign. we owe a lot to bernie sanders, his courage, his integrity, his power, the fact that most people under 30 voted for bernie sanders. in fact, if you look at the people who voted for bernie sanders under 30, that was more people than voted for donald trump and hillary clinton together under the age of 30. we are building a progressive movement in this country. but over the next four years, i don't want donald trump to irretrievably make it difficult, if not impossible, for us to move forward with that progressive movement.

now, i understand hillary clinton is not perfect. i've known her, as i said before, for 50 years. i met her when she was 19 years old. i know her strengths, and i know, pretty well, her weaknesses. she is not perfect. and as chris says, you know, she is also very much a product of many of the problems structurally in this country right nonow. we fight those structural problems, yes. hand in hand, chris, with you, shoulder to shoulder -- i'm very short, maybe it's my shoulder, and d it's your rib cage - -- but itit doesn't matter, wewe continue to fightht. i will continue to fight. many peoeople who are watching and listeningg will continue to fight. we must continue to mobilize. i i hope bernie sandnders does what he implied he would do last night -- that is, c carry the movement forward, lend his namame, his energy, his email list. this is not the end of anything. but we have got to be, at the same time, very practicical about what we're d doing and very s strategic about what we're d doing.

this is not just a matter of making statemenents. it's a matter r of actually working with and through, and changing the structure of power in this countryry. juan: chris, i'd like to ask you -- you've written ththat liberals are tolerated by the capitalist t elites because they do not questi t the virtues of corporate capitalism, only its excesses, and call for t tepid and inefeffectual reformrms. could that have also hahave been said of fdr in the 1930's? because you were one of the folks who did nonoback bernie sanderss from the begininning. >> i d did not back bernie sananders because -- and kshama sawant and i had h had a discussion witith him before - because he said that he would work within the democratic structures and support the nominee. and i i think we have now watched d bernieie sanders walky from his politicical moment. you know, he -- i think he will come to deeply regret what he has done.

he has betrayed these people who believed in this political rerevolution. we heard this same kind of rhetoric, by y the way,y, in 2008 8 ound obamama. a polititical campaign raiseses consciousneness, but it's not a movovement. and what we are seeing now is furious spin -- i listened to ben jealous just do it -- from the self-identified liberal class. and they are tolerated within a capitalist system, because in a moment like this, they are used to speak to people to get them to betray their own interests in the name of fear. and i admire robert and have read much of his stuff and like his stuff. but if you listen to what he's been saying, the message is the samame messae of the trump c campaign, anand that his fear. and that is all the democrats have to offer nonow and alall the repupublicans have to offer now. and ththe fact is, from climamate changnge alone, we have no time left.

i i haveouour childrenen. the future of my children, by the day, is being destroyed because of the f fact that the fossil fuel industry, along with the a animal agriculturure industry, which is also as importatant in terms of climate e change, are destroying the ecocosystem onon which we dependnd for li. and neither party has any intention to do anything about it. amy:y: what should bernie sanders have done? >> bernie e sanders shshould have e walked out and run as an independent. and dedefied the d democratic p. amy: take up ththe invitatation of dr. jill stetein and run on a ticket with --- >> she offered to let hihim run on the top of the ticket. that's w what he should hahave . and d the fact is, you know, lelet's not forget that bernie has a very checkered past. he campaigned for clintoton in 1992. hehe campaigigned for r clintonn in 1 1996, aftfter nafta -- the greatestst betrayal of the working class in this countrtry since ththe taft-hartley act of 1948 -- after the destruction of welfare, after the omnibus crcrim

bill that t ploded the prisison populatioion, and, you know, we now have -- i mean, it's just a monstrosity what we've done. 350,0,000 to 40000,000 peoeople locked in cacages in this country are severely mentally ill. half of them never committed a violent t crime. that's all bill clinton. and yet hehe went out and campaigned. in 2004, he called on nader nonot to run, to step down, so he could support a war candidate like john kekerry. and i'm listening to jealous before talalk about the iriraq . 60% of the democratic senators voted for the war, includuding hillary clinton. the idea that somehohow democrats don'n't push uss into war defies american history. amy: robert reich? >> well, all i can say is that at this particular point in time -- i meaean, again, many of the ththings that chris hedges is saying, i completely a agree with. the real question here is, what do we do o right now? and what do we do to mobililize and organize

a lot of people out there who right now are not t mobilized d and organ? and how do we keep the energy buiuilding? i disagree with chris with regard to bernie sanders. i think bernie sandeders has been a a great and is a g great leader right nw ofof the prorogressive causese. what i thihink we ought to do is develop a third party outside the democratatic and republblican partities, maybe ththe green paparty, so that in the y year 2020, four yearsrs from now, we havave another candidate -- it may be e bernie sanders. i think he's probably going to be too old by then -- but we have a candidate e that holds the democrcrats accountab, that provides a vehicle for a lot of the energy of the b bernie sanders movemet to continue to develop, that fields new candididates at t the senatate, in congres, at the state level that actually holds democrats' feet

to the fire and republicans' feet to the fire, that develops an agenda of getting bigig money out of pololitics and severing the link betweeeen extraordinarily concentrated weaealth and political power in this country. that's's what wewe ought to be doing. now, we e can -- but in order to do that,t, we cannot have -- and, you know, i think that hillary will be a good president, if not a great president. thisis is not just trtrucking in fear, chris. but i do fear donald trump. i fear the polls that i saw yesterday. now,w, polls, again, this early in a campaign still -- we're still months away from the election, but they are indicative. they show donald t trump doing exceedingly wellll, beating hillary clintoton. and right nonow, given ouour two-party system, given our winnnner-take-all system with regard to the electororal college, it's just too much of f a risk toto go and to say,

"well, i'm going to vote -- i'm nonot going to vote for the lesser of two evils, i'm m going to vote exactlyy whwhat i want to do." well, anybody can do that, obvioiously. this is a free country. you vote what you -- you vote your conscience. you have to do that. i'm just saying that your conscience needs to be aware that if you do not support hillary clinton,n, you are inincreasingng the odds of a trueue, clear and present danger to the united states,, a menanace to the united s sta. and you're i increasining the possssibility that thehere will not be a a progressive movementnt, there will not be anything we b believe in inin the futu, because the uniteded states wil realally be chchanged for e wow. ththat's not a -- that's notot a risk i'm prepared to takeke atat this point in time. i'm m going to move -- i'm going to d do exactly what i've been doing for the last 40 years. i'i'm going to continue to beat my head against the wall, to buiuild and contrtribute to buiining a progressive movement. the day after election day,

i am going to try to work with bernie sanders and anybody else who wants to work in strengthening a third party -- and again, maybebe it's the greeeen party -- for the year 2020, and do everything elsese i i was just talkingng about. but right now as we lead up to election day 201616, i must urge everyoyone who is l listening or who is watching to do whatever thehey can to make sue that hillalary clinton is the next president, and not donald trump. amy: former clintoton labor secretary robert r reich and pupulitzer prize-winningng journalilist chris hedgeges. we'll return to the e debate in a minutute.  [music break]

amy: dr. john and odetta, "brother can you spare a dime." this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.n. we return now to our debate between former clinton labor secretary robert reich and pulitzer prize wiwinning jojournalist chris he. reich supported senator sanders during the primaries. chris hedges supports dr. jill stein of the green party for president. juan gonzalez and i spoke to them

during the democratic national convention. chris hedges was with us in philadelphia, robert reich joined d us from the university of california berkeley where he teacheses. we started this section of the debate with a clip fromom donald trump's acceptance speech at the republicacan natitional convention. mr. trump: i have seen firsthand how the system is rigged against our citizens, just like it was rigged against bernie sanders. he never had a chance, never had a chance. but his supporters will join our movement, because we will fix his biggest single issue -- trade deals that strip our country of its jobs and strip us of our wealth as a country. juan: that was donald trump talking at the convention in cleveland.

robert reich, interestingly, donald trump and chris hedges agree on one thing, that free trade deals that the -- that both the republicans and democrats have negotiated over the past few years, especially nafta, have been n disastrous for r the american people. you were parart of the clininton administraration when nafta was passed. talk about this, the impact t that trump is utilizing among white workers in america over the issue of free trade. >> well, donald trump isis clearly using trade and d also immigration as vehics for r making the people who have really been hurt by trade, by glolization, feel that he is going toto somehow be on their sidede. he's not going to be on their side. trump is right in a very, very narrow rerespect that trade has hurt very v vulnerable people, working-clclass people. the burdens of trade have been

disproportioionately fallen on those people who used t to have g good unionized d jobs in america. and the failure of nafta and also the wto, ththe world trade organizazati, chininese asascension into the , all of those clinton-era programs - -- the failurure was, number one, not toto have neararly strong enough and enforceaeable enough labor and environmnmental side agrgreements. numberer two, not to have adjustntnt mechanisms s here in the united states for people who lost their jobs to help ththem get good jobs, that were new jobs, for the jobs they lost. the winners in t trade could have compensated the l loserss and still come outut ahead, but they did not. and that is a structural, political problem in this cocountry that we have to address. it is s also a problem with regd to technological displacement. it's notot just trade. technology is displacing and will continue to displace

and will displace even more good jobs in the futurure, but we have absolutely no strategy for dealing with that. and right nonow, the burdens of technological displacemenent are falling, once again, on the working middle class, lower-income people, who have very, very few alternatives, drivining a greateter and grgreater wedgee between those who are lucky enough to be -- to have richch parents or be well eduducated or be well connected, and everybody elsese. we cannot go on like this. this is unsustainable.e. and donald trump and bernie sanders are symptomatic, their rise, are both symptomatic of this great wave of antiti-establishment anr that is floodingng american politics.s. although o on the one side you u have ahohoritarian popopu, and on the bernie sanders side you have a politicical revololu. i prefer thehe political revolution, myself. i'm going to continue to work for that political revolution. >> i think we have to acknowledge two facts.

we do o not live in a functioning democracy, and we have to stotop pretending that we d do. you can't talk about -- when you eviscerate privacy, you u can't use the word "liberty.y." at is the e relationshship between a master andnd a slave. the e fact is, this is cacapitalism run amok. thisis whole d discussion should be about capipitalism. capitalism does what it's designed to do, when it's unfettered or unregulated -- as it is -- and that is to increase profit and reduce the cost of labor. and it has done that by de-industrializing the country, and the clinton administration, you know, massively enabled this. and, you know, we're sitting here in philadelphia. the last convention was in cleveland. these are potemkin villages, where the downtowns are disneyfied and three and four blocks away people are living in appalling poverty. we have responded to surplus labor, as karl marx says, in our de-industrialized internal colonies,

to quote malcolm x, by putting poor people of color in cages all across the country. why? it's because surplus labor -- corporate entities cannot make money off of surplus or redundant labor. but when you lock them in a cage, they make $40,000 or $50,000 a year. this is the system we live i i. wewe live in a system where, under section 1021 of the national dedefense authorizization act, the executive branch can put the soldiers in the streets, inin clear violationon of the 1878 8 posse comitatus act,t, to see -- carrrry out extraordininary rendition of a american citizes who are deemed to be "terrorists," strip themem of due process and d hold thehem indefinitely in military facilities, including in our black sites. we are a country thatat engagages in tortrtu. we talk -- robert talks about, you know, building movements. you can't build movements in a political system

where money hahas replplaced the vote. it's impossible. and the democrats, you know, their bedside manner is differerent from the republicans. you know, trump is this kind of grotesque figure. he's like the used car salesman who rolls back the speedometer. but hillarary clinton is like, you know, the nanagers of gogoldman sach. they both engage in criminal activities that h have -- and clinton's record, like trump, exposes this -- that have preyed upon the most vulnerable within this country and are now destroying the middle class. and to somehow speak as if we are in a a functioning democracy, or speak as if there a are any restraraints on capitalism, or spepeak as ifif the democratic party hahas not pushed fororward this a agenda a -- i meanan, obama has done this. you know, hehe has been as obsbsequious to wall street as the bush administration.

there's no d difference. amy: robert reich? >> chris, you know, i -- again, i find this a frustrating conversation, because i agree with so much of what you have said, but the question is,s, what do we dababout it? i mean, we are in a a better position today, in the sense that bernie sanders has helped mobilize, organize, and energize a a lot of america, anand educateded a lot of ameris about the very issues that you have talkeded anand written n about and i have talked and written about. but the question is, what is the e action? what is the actual political strategy right now? >> well, let m me -- let me answer ththat. >> and i think the political - - >> letet me answer that.t. >> well, let me just -- let me just put in my two cents. i think political strategy is not to elect donald trump, to elelect hillary clintnton, and for four years, toto develop an alalternative, another bernie sanders-type candidate with an independent party,y, ououtside the democratic party, that will take on hillary y clinton, asassuming that t she is elecd

and that she runs for re-election, and that also develolops the infrastructuture of a third party that is a true, new progreressive party. >> well, that's precisely what we're trying toto do. there e is a point where yoyou haveve to -- do i want toto kp p quoting ral, but where you have to draw a a line in the sand. and thatat's part of the prorom with the left, is we haven't. i covevered the war in yugoslav, and i find many pararallels between whatat's happening inin the uniteted states and what happened with the breakdown of yugoslavia. what is itit that caused ththis country to disintegrate? it wasn't ancicient ethnic hatreds. it was the ecoconomic meltdown of yugugoslavia and a babankrupt liberal esestablishment that, after the death of tito until 1989 or 1990, spokoke in the language of democracy, but proved ineneffectual in t terms of f dealing wiwith the p plight of workingn and womemen who were cast out of statate factotories, huge unemployment,t, and finally, hyperinflation. and the fact is ththat these neoliberal p policies,s,

whicich the dedemocratic party is one o of the engines for, have c created thihis right-wiwing fascialism. you can go bacack -- this proto-fascism. you can go back and look at the weimar, and it -- republic -- was very much the same. so it's compleletely counterintuitive. of course, i find trump a vile and disturbing and disgsgusting figure, but i don't belilieve that votig for the democratatic establishment -- and remember t that this -- the two insurgenencies, both within the republican party and the -- were agagainst figures like hillary clinton, who spokoke in that tritioional feel-your-pain language of liberalism, whwhile assiduduously serving corporate powewer and selllling out working men anand women. and they seeee through the con, they see through the game. i don't actually thihink bernie sanders educated the public. in fact, bernie e sanders spoke for ththe first time as a political candidate

about the realality the public was experiencing, because e even barack obama, in his state of the union address, was talking about economic recovery, and everything was wonderful, and people know that it's not. and when you dispossess -- >> well, let me -- let me -- >> let me just finish. let me finish. when you dispossess that segment, as large as we have -- half the country now lives in virtual poverty -- and d you continue t to essentially n n a governmement that's been seized by a cabal, in this case, corporate, whicich uses all of the machinery of government for r their own enrichment and their own further empowerment at the expense of the rest of the citizenry, people f finallyly react. and that is how yoyou get fasci. that is what history has told us. anand to sit by -- every timeme, robert, you spea, you dodo exactly what trump does, which is fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. and d the fact that we arere going to build some kind of -- >> well, let me -- let me try to -- >> amorphous movement afr hillary clinton -- it's just not they way it works. >> let me try to inject --

let me try to inject some hope inin here, in this discussion, rather than fear. i'veve been traveleling around the country for the last two years, trying to talk to tea partiers and conservatives and many people who are probablyly going to vote e for donald trump, to try to understand what it is that theyey are d doing and how they view america and why they're acting in ways that are so obviouously against their self-interest, both economic self-interest and other self-interest. and here's the interesting thing i found. this great anti-establishment wave that is occurriring both on the leleft and d the right has a great overlap, if f you will, and that overlap is a deep contempt for what many people on thehe right are calling crony capitalism. in fact, many people on the left have called crony capitalism. and those people on t the right, many, many working people, they're not all white. many of them are. many of them are working-clasass.

many of them have suffered from trade and techchnological displacemet and a government that is s really tururning its baback on them, they feeee- and d to some extent, they're right. many of them feel as angry about the current system and about corporate welfare and about big money in politics as many of us on the progressive side do. now, if it is possible to have a multiracial, multiethnic coalition of the bottom 90% that is reready to fightht to get big money out of politics, for momore equalitity, for a system that is not rigged against average working people, where there are not going to b e all of these redistributions upward from ththose of us who have paychecks -- and we d don't even realize that larger and larger portions of those paychececks are going to big industries, conglomerates,

concenentrated indndustries thatat have great mamarket pow, because it's all hidden fromiew -- well, the more coalition building we can do, from right to left, multiethnic, multiracial, left and right, to build a movemenent to take back our economy and to take back our democracy, that is -- juan: robert reich - rorobert reichch, i'd just like to interrupt you for a second, because we only have a minute left, and i just wanted to ask c chris one last questio. in less than a minute, if you can, regardless of -- you're voting for jill stein, other folks are going to vote for clinton and trump. where do you feel this massive movement that has deveveloped over the last few years, thisis people movement, would he a better opportunity to grow, under a trump presesidency or under a clinton presidency, assuming that one ofof those to will eventually be elected? >> i don't think it makes any difference. the tptpp is going to go throug, whwhether it's d donald trump or hillary clinton. endless war is going to be continued, whether it's trump or clinton.

we're not going to get our privacy back, whether it's under clinton or trump. the idea that at this point, the figure in the executive branch exercises that much power, given the power of the war industry and wall street, is a myth. the fact is -- >> equating -- i'm sorry. juan: even on immigration? >> what? on immigration? i mean, let's look at obama's record on immigration. who's worse? amy: we've got 10 seconds. >> i mean, you know, you can't get worse than obama. >> and can i just say something? amy: robert reich, 10 seconds. >> i j just want to say, equating donald trump and hillary y clinton is absolute nononsense. i just -- anybybody who equates the two o of them is not paying attention. and it's dangerous kind of talk. >> that's not what i -- that's not what i did. amy: we're going to have to leave it there, but this is a discussion that will continue. that was c chris hedges, pulitzr prize-winning journalist. his most recent book, "wages of rebellion: the momoral imperative of revol" robert reich served as labor secretary under president clinton,

is a professor at university of california, berkeley. his most recent book, saving capitalism: for the many, not the few. when we come back, "the making of donald trump" with david cay johnston.  [m[music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, demomocracynow.o.org, the war and pepeace report. i'm amy goodman. as we continue this holiday special with pulitzer prize winning journalist david cay johnhnston who has been reporting on donald trump for decades. johnston first covered trump in the 1980's while he was working as bureau chief for the philadelphia inquirer in atlantic city. david cay johnston later covered trump at "the new york times." johnston's new biography of donald trump has just been published. it is called, "the making of donald trump." juan gonzalez and i interviewed david cay johnston last month. we began by asking him what's the main theme he has taken away from his years of studying trump's operations.

>> donald doesn't know anything. and if you listen carefully to whahat he says, it becomes apparent. he was a asked by a hugh hewewt during one of the debates, the right-wing radio talk show host, about the nucleaear triad. that's thehe capacity of the u.. to deliver a n nuclear bomb from a submarine missile, a land-based missile, or an airplane. his answer indicated he had no idea. well, it turned out hugh hewitt had asked the same question months earlier on his radio show, and trump didn't learn in between. trump talks as if the president's a dictator. wh he ran casinos, he didn't know the games. he did not know the odds. he didn't know how to handle customers. all he knew how to do was take money out of the organizatioion, which weakened it, and that's why his casinos were among the first to fold. amy: let's go back to the clip thatat you reference also in the making of donald trump. during the republican debate last december, he was questioned, as you said, by hugh hewitt, who then asked senator marco rubio for his response. mr. trump: first of all, i think we need somebody

absolulutely tt we can trustst, who's totally responsible, who really knows what he oror she is doing. that is so powerful and soso important. and one e of the thihings that i most frankly y proud of is that in 2003, 2004, i was totally againsnst going into iraq, because you're going to destabilize the middle east. i called it. i called it very strongly, and it was very importanant. but we have to be extremely vigilant and extremely careful when it t comes to nuclear. nuclear changes the whole ballgame. >> the three legs of the triad, though, do you have a priority? because i want to go to senator rubio after that and ask him -- mr. trump: well, i think -- i think, to me, nuclear is just -- the power, the d devastation is very important to me. > senator rubio, do you have a response? sen. rubio: i do. well, first, let's explain to people at home who the triad -- what the triad is. maybe a lot of people haven't heard that terminology befefor. the triad is ourur ability of the united states to conduct nuclear a attacks ususing airprplanes, using missiles launched from silos or from the ground, and alsoso from our nuclclear s, ability to attacack. and itit's important. all l three of them are critica.

amy: so that was senator rubio and, befofore him, donald trump. and then recently, joe scarborough,h, the talk show host who's s a former republican conservative congressmember, saying he heard from an international diplomat who was advising donald trump -- trump said to the person three times, "if we have nuclear weapons, why don't we use them?" >> well, this is indicative of donald doesn't know anything. i mean, if marco rubioio, who s pretty much an empty suit,t, has toto school you on s something this bac, that should have s screamed to peoplple back in decembmbe, "this man has no qualifications!" he doesnsn't qualify to be e in congress, much less be p president of the united states. on the other hand, in hisis own mind, of course, donald is the greatest living person. and, amy, if youou don't appreciate t that, dodonald hasas a word for r you, "loser!"" juan: david, i wanted to ask you about this issue which we disiscussed previously with wayne barrett, as well, on the issue of donald trump's relationship to the mob

and his connections over the yearsrs to mobsters. and you've also looked into that as well. >> yes, and it's not just the traditional mafia families in new york. first of all, donald trump's father had a business partner who was a mob guy. i'm sure wayne talked about that. but donald has done business with people with the russian mob. he's's done business with c con artisists. the guy who supplied his helicopters and managed his personal helicopter, called the ivana, from his f first wife back the, was a major cocaine trafficker who actually handled the drugs. and after r he went to prison, donald wrote a letter pleading for mercy for him, so he got 18 months asas the head of the ring. the little fish who delivered the drugugs, they got 20 yeyears. donald continued to do business with him after he was indicted. donald has done business all his life with mobsters and criminals because it's a way to make money. amy: can you talk about joseph weichselbaum? >> yes, that's theheuy. joseph w weichselbaum is this mob associate.

he once -- he used to do cigarette boat r racing in miam, and he once was -- came in third, right behind charles k keating, the ininfamousus financier who ripped off peoeople for a billioion dollars. and weichselbabaum provided helicoptpters to the t trump organization, even though there were better-capitalized, better-run companies. donald rented an apartment to weichselbaum and his brotother under veryry unusual circucumstance. when weichselbaum was indicted, it was for a drug operation that went from miami to ohio. when he agagreed to plead guilt, the case was mysteriously moved to new jersey. and who did it come before? federal judge maryanne trump barry, donald's'slder sisteter. nono one knows h how this happe. now, s she removed herself from the case. but imagine, amy, that you, or one of the listeners, you're the chief judge, and the judge comes to youou and says, "oh, i canan't handle this cas, because i fly in this drug trafficker's helicopters. my husband flies in them every week.

my children have flown in this drug trafficker's helicopters." you know, it helps explain how this guy got a light sentence. and the question we have toto ask is, why did donald trump need to writite that letetter, which could have cost him his casino license? because he needed this guy to be his s friend and d not his enemy. what was going on that d donald trump needed a d drug trafficker to be his friend anand not hihis enemy? and thatat's a question no one in the news media has bebeen asking. amy: you got a call from donald trumump over this? >> i g got a call related to this, yes. i wrwrote a piece for politico magazine back in april about all of donald trump's connections. and donald finally called me. he's had my home number for years. he's calleled me at home in the p past. and he said to me, "well, you know, you've written a lot of t things i like. but if i don't like what you're writing, i'm going to sue you." i said, "well, donald, you're a public figure." in america, that means that he would have to prove that i deliberately, knowingly totold a lie aboutut . and hehe said, "i know i'm a public figure,e, but i'll sue you anywaway." and it's one of the reasons the news coverage ofof him has been so soft.

he has threatenedd to sue everybodydy. that politico piece that i wrotete, i've been an investigative reportrter for almost 50 y yea. i've never been lawyered like i was for that piece. and it d didn't hahave anythingt hadn't been pupublished before. he has intimidated the newsws organizations, and they're not willingg to talk ababout that. juan: well, in your book, you go into a ststory, not about his father, who's been well known and covered previously by o other publications, but about his grandfather. talk about donald trump's grandfather. >> donald trump's grandfather, frederick, when he turned 16 in 188885, was subject to mandatory military service in germany, so he fleded the country and cameme to america. and d then he followeded horarace greeley's advice, "go west, young man." and he went into the whorehouse business. and he ran bordellos in seattle, in everett, washington, and in the yukon territory until the royal canadian mounted police showed up. he then took his fortune, went back to germany, married a young woman his mother didn't approve of, came back to america. his wife didn't like it.

they went back to germany. he figured with all his money, he could buy his way in. and they said, "you're a draft dodger. get out," and sent him back to america. amamy: and thehen, talk about hihis father, fred trump. >> well, fred d trump, whosose father died when he wawas 12 or r 13 years , was a veryry industrious guyu. when h he was 15 years old,, he starteded a business -- technically y owned by his mother,r, because he couldn't sign contracts -- building garages in the outer boroughs of new york for ththese newfangled thing called automobiles. whenen the market cocollapsed because of the great depression, he invented one of the first grgrocery stores. people used to have clerks g give them their canned goods and stuff. he o opened one where you did your own,, and then sold it for a profifi. he built housing during g world wawar ii for shipyard workers and is said to be the first person in line to g get federal m money to build wororker housing. he was a a profiteer. dwight d. eisenhower personally went into a rage over w what he had donone, how he'd ripped stuff off, and he had a crcreative explanation

when he was called before the u.s. senatate to justifyfy what he did. he said,d, "i didn't profitete. i didn't take the money. it's in the bank account." strange way to think about things. and, of course, they discriminated against everybody who wasn't white, and were proven to have done this in the 1950's and in the 1970'0's. and woody guthrie, the folk singer, "this land is your land," he wrote a song, which is in the book thanks to the generosity of thehe guthrie family, about one of the all-white outer suburb projejects owned by fred trump. amy:y: that he had an apartment in. >> yes, ththat's r right, that he lived in. amy: you tell a story about fred trump's son, his older son, donald t trump's brother, and what happepened to his f fa, and d particularly his grandchild -- >> right. amy: after the father,r, fred trump,, died, , and what donald trumpp did to h him. >> so keep in mind he sought mercy for a drug trafficker. so freddy trump, jr., died of alcoholism early. and when old man trump died,

he had a new grandson -- a great-grandson, who was born a few days later -- very s sickly child, nearly died seveveral times, huge medical bills. everyone in the trump family gets medical insurance from the trump organization. donald is a big believer in healthcare. it's one of the positive things you can say about him. and the line of freddy trump, jr., when they realized they'd been effectively cut out of the will, filed a lawsuit. "hey, you knknow, you guys are dividing the money up four ways instead of five."" donald immediatelyly cut off the healthcare for this sickly child. amy: this is his grandnephew. >> his grandnephew. and d he's asked about this. and he says, "well, i don't like people who sue my father." and he was told, "well, don't you think this will look cold-hearted? you're putting the lifife of this child d in jeopardy." "well, what else am i to do?" and that's an essential element to understanding donald trump. you don't exist, amy, i don't exist, as a person. that's why he talks about women the way he does in these degrading terms. donald doesn't't see other people as people. he sees them as things to b be used.

and put the life of a child in jeopardy for more money? donald thinks nothing is wrong with that. of course you would do that, if you're donald. if you wouldn't do it, what's wrong with you? that would be donald's attitude. juan: and the issue of donald trump's tax forms, that's -- this has continually come up over this campaign. "why haven't you released your tax returns?" you've looked into this whole issue of why he's so reluctant to show what his real returns are. >> right, and tax has been my big area of specialty. i'm actually writing a whole new federal tax code for the united states. juan: in your spare time. >> yeah. donald trump, we know, paid no federal income taxes in 1978, 1979 -- he and i had lunch and talked about it once -- in 1984 and in the 1990's. the 1984 tax return is very revealing. there are special laws in america for full-timimreal estatate peoe that allow them to live tax-free if they own a lot of property. so if donald gave us his tax returns, i could tell you what his property

is really worth as opposed to what he tellsls people it's worth. that's one reason he's not going t to give it ou. i don't think he's anywhere nenear as wealthy as h he clai. not even close. but in 1984, he was audited by the state of new york and the city of new york, which both have income taxes. he fililed a tax form, not the whole return, that showed zero income for this category of income and over $600,000 of deductions. surprise, surprise, the auditors said, "please justify these deduductions." he couldn't do it. but he ordered his law guyuy -- his tax guy to make an appeal.. and under oath, his longtime tax guy is s shown the return that was filed, and he goes, "um, that's my signature, but i didn't prepare that document." that's very good evidence of tax fraud. and donald has engaged in other tax frauds we know about. he was involved in what's called the empty box scandal here in new york. that's where you claim to not live in the city -- in the state, and you have an empty box mailed t to you out t of state to avoid sales tax.

in that case, when donald found out there was an investigation, he did what he often does to not be investigated -- he ran to law enforcement and ratted out other people. juan: but in the 1984 case, if there was evidedence of frau, what happened with that cacase? >> we only know what happened in the city and the state case, all right? the state imposed penalties on him, civil penalties, not cririmina. that's how almost all tax matters are sesettled. the city, because no onene cocould find the original -- all ththey had wasas the photopy y -- with the signature on it, the judge didn't impose the penalties, becacause of the uncertainty abouout it. but he made it very clear that he thought this is a very fishy case. what the irsrs did, i don't kno. in allikelihihood, donald, who says he's audited alall the timeme, arranges to settle these cases, but through threats of litigation, when they do the legal algebra, they say, "all right, we'll take penninis on the dollalar. get t out of here,e," becaususe they donon't have the staff to pursue it. amy: you write a lot about the dge. ththat's t new jersesey division of gaming enforcement, which oversees the atlantic city casinos. what can we learn from their dealings with donald trump?

>> well, this shows how masterful l donald trump is at manipulating law enforcement. he told the attorney general of new jersey, when he wanted a casino license, "i'm not going to go t through the 18 months that all these other people have gone through," and demanded he be investigated in just 90 days. everybody else, year and a half. the attorney general agreed to six months if donald cooperated. then donald hid things, including four grand jury investigatioions that wayne barrett found. four of them. in new jersey, a woman applying for a blackjack dealer license -- that's a very low-level license -- was found morally unfit and denied a license because as a teenager she gave friends of hers discounts s at the cash registe. that's the legal standard. donanald withheld these grand jury investigations. he withheld associations with mobsters and criminals. and yet he got licensed anyway. well, once he was licensed, the bureaucracy at the division of gaming enforcement made sure that donald was never asked a question that would put his license in jeopardy

because that would force them to o admit that they hadn't done their job. juan: well, given this history of lying, of fraud, of all of these other skirtings of the law, have you been surprised at all about this -- the enormous suppoport that trump has gotten among -- >> no. juan: the republican faithful? >> juan, i'll tell you why i'm not surprised. as you two know,w, i've spent me than 20 0 years of my life being on the forefront in the maiainstream press of documenting inequality. when nobody else was writing about it, i was showing how government policies are taking from the many and giving to the few. so the people in this country living in economic terror, the e bottom 50%, i've been their advocate. but they're not the people who read my books. whwhat they know is, "i'm workiking harder, i'm m making less. if i lose my job, i don't know how i'll pay my rent or keep a roof over my kids' heads." and donald comes along, like all demagogues do -- "i have a solution. it's the mexicans. it's the muslims. it's the chinese." and people gravitate to him. they are not the only ones,

but that's a big part of his support. amy: you write about how many of his restaurants, his golf coursrses have five and six diamond awards. what are thehese? >> well, youou go to --- at least 19 trump properties have these big plaques. six diamond award, five diamond awards. they're awards donald gave to himself. donanald and his famy were the majority of the board of something called the academy of amerirican hospitalality sciencnces, or sometething le e that, whicis the invention of a mob guy,, a named joey "no socks," who lives on cenalal parsoututh. and donald has gone to ceremonies to receive t these awawards anand these big plaqaques, and his signature is on them. this is a man who gives awards to himself. how juvenile. amy: w what were you most sprprised by, as we wrap up this interview, in writing "the mamaking of donald trump"? you have covered him for many years. >> i did not appreciate, until i worked on the book,

ththat while donald holds himsef out asas a devt chchristian -- "no one readss the bible e more thahan me." while he hasas all these pastos embracing him as a good christian man, donaldld aggressively, thoroughly and at great length inin many forums, denounces christianity. his personal motto is "always get revenge.e." whereas the message of jesus christ was "turn the other cheek." and d these ministers, some of whom i've w written to and d haven'- they havaven't responded at all- continue to embrace him. and i find it very troubling. donald has beguiled them with flattery. if they continue, now that my book is out, if they know about it, to do this, ththey are t then dececeiving their flococks, and thatat's evil. but donald h himself doesn't care about these things. he wilill tell you any l lie. he can't quote a single line from the bible. not one. and yet he sayays, "no one reads the bible more than donald t trump." if you ask him, "well, what do you lilike in the bible" "oh, there's so many. there's so many. i just -- there are so many, i can't choose." amy: pulitzer prize winning journalist david cay johnston,

author of the new book "the making of donald trump." we end this labor day special with billy bragg singing in our democracy now! studio. >>  there is power in a factory, power in the lands power in the hand of the worker but it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand there is power in a union now the lessons of the past were all learned with workers' blood the mistakes of the bosses we must pay for from the cities and the farmlands to trenches full of mud war has always been the bosses' way, sir the union forever defending our rights

down with the blackleg, all workers unite with our brothers and our sisters together we will stand there is power in a union now i long for the morning that they realize brutality and unjust laws cannot defeat us who will defend the workers who cannot organize when t the bosses send their lackeys out to c cheat u? money speaks for money, the devil for his own who comes to speak for the skin and the bone what a comfort to the widow, a light to the child there is power in a union the union forever

defending our rights down with the blackleg, all workers unite with our brothers and our sisters together we will stand there is power in a union.  amy: and that does it for today's showow. if you would likike to get a coy or see the show or the transcript, podcast or audio of the show or any of our debates are coverage of the 2016 election or anything else onon global politics, go to democracynow.org. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your commenents to outreach@demomocracynowow.g or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible