10/27/16 10/27/16 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> what russia really once from the u.n. is credit. congratulations, russia, you stopped for a couple of days from using incendiary weapons. thank you for not using cluster bombs in civilian areas. amy: as u.s. accuses russia of bombarding civilians in syria, we will speak with bassam haddad , director of the middle east and islamic studies program at george mason university.

then we take a look at undercover firsthand account of border militias -- loooosely organized networks of armed men -- who sometimes collalaborate with border patrol agents on their missions to catch undocumented immigrants. >> i was surised to see how much the border patrol was cooperating. to be inside of that world and see the ways these guys are talking about hunting mexicans. and then to see federal law enforcement, not only tolerate them, butind of use them in a certain n way. amy: mother jones senior reporter shane bauer joins us to tell the story of how he went undercover in california, arizona, colorado, to report on the right-wing militia movement, which surged under president obama. all of that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report.

i'm amy goodman. at least 22 people, mostly children, have reportetedly died in a an airstrike e on a schooln the rebel-held syrian provincece of idlibib. ththe syrian obsbservatory for n rights saiaid the bobombing was believed t to be carri out by russian plananes. anthony lake of unicef said "this is a tragedy. , it is an outrage. and if deliberate, it is a war crime." unicef says the attack the -- may be the deadliest bombing of a school since the war began more than five years ago. meanwhile at the united nations, , u.n. emergency relief coordinator stephen o'brien pushed the security council wednesday to take action in syria. he said soon there may be no syrian people or syria to save. before month i have come you and presented a never worsening record of destruction and atrocity. grimly cap regarding the destruction -- cataloging the

destruction of a country and its people. y toe my job is to rela the facts, i can't help but be incandescent with rage. month and month, nothing is happening to stop the wars, stop the suffering.g. amy: we will have more on syria after headlines. in what's been described as biggest military buildup on russia's borders since the cold war, the united states is promising to send troops, tanks and artillery to poland while , britain is planning to send fighter jets to romania and troops to estonia next year. the pledges were made wednesday during a nato meeting in brussels. in addition germany, canada, and , other nato allies have also pledged to send forces to the region. jens stoltenberg is nato secretary-general. >> today, we also discussed progress in strengthening nato's presence in the black sea region with the romanian led brigade on land. and we are w working on measures

in the air and at sea. i am pleased to confirm that several nations indicated their willingness to contribute to our presence in the black sea region on land, at sea, and in the air. amy: in other military news, the "washington post" is reporting the pentagon has secretly expanded its global network of drone bases to i include a basen tunisia a to conduct missiononsn libya. the u.s. now maintains a s strig of drone bases acrcross africa from niger to djibouti. in north dakota, the morton county sheriff's department has concluded its investigation into the use of dogs to attack native americans trying to protect a sacred site from being destroyed by the construction of the $3.8 billion dakota access pipeline on september 3. the investigation finds the guards lacked the proper licensing to do security work in north dakota. it's a class b misdemeanor to provide private security services without a license in north dakota, meaning some of

the guards could face charges and possible jail time. the sheriff's department probe began after this video recorded by democracy now! on september 3 went viral. -- these dogs. that woman over there, she was charging them. right in my face. amy: the dog has blood in its nose and mouth. >> and she is still standing here threatening. amy: why are you letting those stocks go after them? amy: meanwhile, in more updates from north dakota, the morton county sheriff's department and north dakota highway patrol have shut down a section of highway 1806 -- the main higighway leadg to the resistance camps. the fedederal aviatition administration has also issued a temporary no-fly zone for the airspace above the resistance camps for all aircrafts except for those used by law enforcement. this order means native americans can no longer fly

drones to document police activity, but the police can continue to fly their surveillance drones and helicopters. this comes as water protectors report the pipeline's construction is now only about a half-mile west of highway 181806 and that the company is continuing to build eastward toward the highway and then to the missouri river. on wednesday, civil rights leader jesse jackson traveled to north dakota to support the pipeline protesters. >> they have been victims of protracted genocide and dishonored commitments. howust measure our cap her we treat native americans -- character, how we treat native americans. amy: in new york city, resistance is growing in opposition to spectra energy's aim pipeline, which is slated to carry fracked gas only hundreds of feet from the aging indian point nuclear power plant and then under the hudson river. on tuesday morning, 15 people

were arrested blocking the doors to new york senator chuck schumer's office in manhattan to demand schumer stop the pipeline's construction. this comes two weeks after four activists blockaded pipeline construction for more than 15 hours by crawling inside the pipeline and locking themselves to each other. in election news hacked emails , from the account of hillary clinton's campaign chair john podesta show several of her top aides were privately concerned about how the actions of the clinton foundation could impact her campaign. campaign manager robby mook sent one email with the subject line of "foundation vulnerability points." in thehe e-mail, he listed three points -- "money from foreigign governments," "o"overseaeas eves with foreieign leaders or government officials" " and "potential c conflicts frorom overerseas-owned organizations." the clinton foundation raised

$26 million from the swedish government at the same the government was lobbying hillary clinton's state department to not sanction swedish businesses from working with iran. the swedish telecommunications giant ericsson had reportedly sold iran equipment that could be used to track its citizens. meanwhile, another hacked email written by one of bill clinton's closest aides shows how the former president clinton has personally profited from work tied to the foundation. the aide, doug band, writes that he helped secure $50 million in speaking fees and other ventures that went directly to bill clinton. in the email, band described the for-profit activity of president clinton as "bill clinton, inc." meanwhile, in another hackeded e-mail, chelsea clinton accused herr father's aiaides of taking "significant sums of money from my parents personally." in other campaign news, donald trump took a break from campaign trail to open a new luxury hotel

in washington, d.c., just blocks from the white house. this comes as more signs are emerging that the republican's presidential run may have e done permanent damage to the trump brand. in new york, more than 300 residents of the large apartment complex known as trump place have signed an online petition titled "dump the trump name." meanwhile, in hollywood, someone has vandalized donald trump's star o on the hollllywood walk f fame by smashing it to pieces using a sledgehammer and a pick-axe. in other campaign news, a former republican congressman has threatened to grab his musket if trump loses the election. former illinois congressman joe walsh tweeted -- "on november 8th, i'm voting for trump. on november 9th, if trump loses, i'm grabbing my musket. you in?" the brady campaign to prevent gun violence condemned walsh's tweet.

the group's president said -- "joe walsh's continued vile and violent rhrhetoric has no placen our political discussion." for the first time the united states has abstained from a united nations general assembly vote on a resolution calling for an end to a u.s. economic embargo on cuba. the resolution was passed 191 to zero with the united states and israel abstaining. the u.s. had opposed the measure for the past 24 years. in havana, residents welcomed the u.n. vote. >> we really think the united states abstention is a step in the right d direction that t prs in the future, sometime soon, there could be an end to the blockade, given the conditions in flagrant violations of humann rights that it represents. amy: a shocking new study by the world wildlife fund finds more ththan two thirds of t the wor's wildlife could be gone by 2020. according to the wwf, , there hs

already been a 58% overall decline in the numbers of fish, mammals, birds, and reptiles worldwide. wwf conservation scientist martin taylor told cnnnn -- "this is definitely human impact, we're in the sixth mass extinction. there's only been five before this and we're definitely in the sixth." here in new york, ten immigrant rights activists were arrested tuesday morning after they chained themselves together and shut down traffic on the upper level of the george washington bridge dururing morning rush hor tuesday. the protest was organized by the laundry workers cecenter u usine hashtag #somosvisibles, or we are visible. co-director of the laundry workers center mahoma lopez said -- "we demand the right to vote and take part in the decisions in our communities." the group is calling for a day of action on november 7 -- the day before the presidential elections.

meanwhile another group of , immigrant rights activists in held a march outside an immigration office in downtown manhattan to demand deferred action from deportation, including a five-year work visa, for all undocumented immigrants, regardless of age or parental status. the campaign is called saving our souls -- a reference to martin luther king's motto for the civil rights movement. it included 37 peoplple from mexico, honduras, ghana, st. vincent, spain, and other countries that submitted their applications for deferred action. and in maryland, a debate between the democratic and republican senate candidates was disrupted wednesday y when the green party's candidate, dr. mamargaret flowers, jumped n stage to insist she be allowed to take part. after briefly speaking on the stage, dr. flowers was removed by security. think it is for voters to understand the difference between myself and these delegates, otherwise, they don't

know. you say you are a public university and you want to educate the public, but without having a full public discussion, that doesn't actually happen. how does this serve democracy and the public? >> you have to leave now. >> i'm dr. flowers and i'm a candidate. this is how you're treating a candidate? dr. flowers was removed from the stage. the debate went on between democratic nominee chris van allen and republican cap easily go. -- cap easily go. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. nermeen: and i'm nermeen shaikh. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. we begin today in syria, where air strikes wednesday killed at least people, most of them 22 school children. the attacks occurred in a village in syria's rebel-held idlib province. according to reports by the syrian civil defense rescue

workers the raids were carried , out by either syrian or russian warplanes anand hit residential area and a school. >> oh, god. oh, god. please come help us. oh, god. you're seeing our situation. >> i want my mother. take me to my anothe mother. >> the plane hit us. i do not want to go to the school. nermeen: also on wednesday, u.n. aid chief stephen o'brien addressed the united nations security council, saying the council has taken no action to end nearly six years of civil war in syria. his comments sparked an angry exchange. >> each month i have come before you and presented an ever worsening record of destruction and atrocity. grimly cataloging this

destruction of a country and its people. while my job is to relay to you the facts, i cannot help but be incandescent with rage. month after month, worse and worse, and nothing exactly happening to stop the war, stop the suffering. nermeen: russia's ambassador to the u.n., vitaly churkin, responded to o'brien, describing his remarks as arrogant and criticizing him for not talking about russia halting air strikes in aleppo. several council members, including the united states, france and britain, defended , o'brien's statements. this is u.s. ambassador to the u.n. samantha power. remarkable and troubling about the presentation we have heard today is that what russia really wants from the u.n. is credit. congratulations, russia, you have stopped for a couple of days from using incendiary weapons will stop thank you for not using cluster bombs in

civilian areas. thank you for staying the hand of brutality with regard to bunker buster weapons. you don't get congratulations and get credit for not committing war crimes for a day. or a week. amy: this comes as u.s. defense secretary ash cartrter announcea military campaign to retake the syrian city of raqqa from the islamic state. carter said the campaign will commence sometime in the next few weeks before the likely completion of the current offensive to defeat militants in the iraqi stronghold of mosul. meanwhile, syria contitinues to dominate foreign policy discussions in the presidential race. donald trump warned in an interview tuesday that hillary clinton's policy on sysyria coud lead to world war iii. mr. trump: she has no plan for syria. look, with her you will end up in world war iii.

she doesn't know what she's doing. just like with libya, just like with everything else she has done. syria is no longer syria. syria is russia and the new that that we built -- iran we built which was one of the worst negotiated deals i''ve evr seen. nermeen: nato is seeking to station more troops in eastern europe in what reuters reports could be the biggest military buildup on russia's borders since the cold war. as part of a u.s.-backed plan, nato is planning to send battle groups to poland, lithuania, estonia, and latvia with forces ranging from armored infantry to drones. as tension mounts between russia and thee u.s. over the crisis in syria national intelligence , director james clapper said tuesday he fears russia could shoot down a u.s. aircraft if a no-fly zone were imposed over syria. amy: well, our next guest says that two mutually exclusive, competing narratives a are dominating discussions around syria and neither is enough to understand what's happening in the country. in a new article in the nation

headlined, "the debate over syria has reached a dead end," bassam haddad writes -- "there has been increasing gravitation toward two mutually exclusive narratives: that of 'pure and consistent revolution,' and that of 'externalal conspiracy.' both narratives carry grains of truth, but both are encumbered by maximalist claiaims and fundamental blind spots that forfeit any common ground necessary for enduring cease-fires or potential transitions, as well as postwar reconciliation." bassam haddad is director of the middle east and islamic studies program at george mason university. he is director of the arab studies institute. we welcome you to democracy now! layout with these competing narratives a are and why you cal this a dead end atat this point. >> thank you, amy, for having me

again on the show. was trying to establish some sort of accountability on -- on of the people that both of these sort of dominant sides. revolution the pure narrative is, of course, some sort of shortcut to a much more complex position. both of these depictions are. but in all cases, you present a view that assumes from the very beginning of the uprising or revolution, the same values that actually existed at the time have been sustained throughout the last 5.5 years by the rebels and so on. whereas in reality, the actual uprising has been transformed into what you're seeing today to

avoid the culture of what is exactly happening today in terms of giving it a name. another, also, reveals shortcoming regarding the actual -- external intervention on behalf of the opposition that has short-circuited the opposition, that has rendered it less unified, less transparent, less inclusive and most governmentally, -- detrimentally, less independent. they also have a problem, proponents of a pure revolution, that in trying to disentangle the good rebels from the bad rebels him if you will, or the jihadists from the nationalists within the rebel groups, but it is difficult to disentangle these two as it is difficult to disentangle syria today from the problems that we are witnessing in the region. on the other side, we also see a dominant narrative -- there are

many narratives, but these are the ones that you're always confronted with when you talk to anyone about syria, whether it is a family member am a policy analyst, or a friend. the other narrative focuses on the conspiracy excessively, external designs on syria excessively as if there is no reason for syrians to actually rise up on their own and basically, struggle for ending a repressive regime.sion o it does this at the expense of syrians. the forces do exist and have actually wreaked havoc in the region to the nth degree, but it only sees those forces in internally it sees, for the most part, jihadists. what disappears in this narrative are ordinary syrians who are actually opposed to both. syrians in this narrative become invisible. if you try to hold the position

that rejects this sort of pure narrative that is difficult to accept when you're looking at what is happening on the ground or when you try to reject the conspiracy were external design narratives, you're basically accused of either being a traitor to the nation or in imperirialist or even a jihadis. you're not allowed to oppose the regime, for instance, from a perspective that is different from that of the opposition. and you're not allowed to be in the opposition to the regime without being labeled a pro-west, pro-u.s., pro-imperialist speaker or advocate. and that puts us in the position that has the development of the middle ground, that puts syria first over and above all these designs. what is at stake here is not what is happening now -- because the regime, as we we see today

in the past several decades, is not going to be part of syria's future, no matter how much everyone insists on that side that it will be. it is aptly for the most part, a bargaining chip to use during negotiations to increase the leverage of that side of the argument. what might stay with us, however, is the new configuration your witnessing developing and syria, including various groups that are supported and funded, these kinds of movements, in my view, will stay with us for the long haul and that is why there is a lot of controversy about what should not be controversial, which is the democratic uprising against dictatorship. but things have become so complex that to actually read the e real world o of this cocomplexity andnd just focus se ideals is tually counterprproductive for the purposes of an uprising itself. amy: bassam haddad, there's so

much to discuss. we're going to go to break and come back to this. director of the middle east and islamic studies program at george mason university. this is democracy now! we will be back in a moment. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: we continue our look at the area. in a piece published earlier this month in the guardian, saying his country is fighting isis who -- "broughtht the conflict to a new degree of barbarity and cruelty unseen since the days of nazi germany. massacres, public tortures and executions, and a slave trade on an industrial scale were a daily reality in the areas held by isis." he goes on to say --

"those who fight in eastern aleppo shamelessly use civilians as a human shield, block their passage to safety through established humanitarian corridors, and hamper the delivery of humanitarian aid." ,my: our guest is bassam haddad director of the middle east and islamic studies program at george mason univeversity. cofounder of jadaliyya and director of the arab studies institute. his recent piece for the nation is headlined, "the debate over syria has reached a dead end." he's also the author of "business networks in syria: the political economy of authoritarian resilience." nermeen: bassam haddad, you were speaking earlier about all of the parties who were intervening in the conflict, both on behalf -- on the side of the assad regigime as well as the opposition. could you explain who those parties are and how they are impacted what started off, as you pointed out, an uprising

against the assad regime in 2011? >> the actual development of the uprising early on, and there's also debate about that because various groups already had existed in syria thanks to push our al-assad and his efforts -- bashar al-assad in his efforts for international and regional sincests into the region 2003. however, the uprising itself started as a legitimate call for democracy or for social justice or for the end of economic what tatian or corruption against a regime that has an in power for several the gates, putting of opportunities to turn syria into something that actually presents -- prevents an intervention from the outside at this scale we have seen. but it has done the opposite. making subject citizens very

vulnerable and setting them up to perhaps call for any -- prevention to fight the regime. that has been exploited by various groups in the region or various states in the region and beyond to use the uprising, perhaps hijack it, for its own purposes, for their own purposes, and sort of attorney syrian question or uprising into an arena that is used to redraw the map of the region. that process, as well as the brutality of the regime in crossing the opposition or crossing the protests early on, excavated -- escalated and exacerbated the transformation of the uprising into something that is more militant, more extremist, ultimately more jihadist in due time.

that constituted one of the tracks that needs to be taken very seriously, as we speak, about a future for syria. and as we speak about ways of coming out at this conflict. the brututality we havave seen y the regime is nonot something n. it is s not somomethinghat can explaineneby addressining internatational intervention on. it is a m manifestation o of hoe regime operatetes when iis under threat. itit is not jujust the identitif the opppposition ththat makes te regime a act this way, , but the resumeme would act this way when faced with any t threat. it could be mother thereresa ora mamarxist movement, they would rereact in the same mannerer. what complplicates the s situatn anand what makeses this a diffit context is the e identity o of e supporters of f the uprisining n the revolution, whwhich includes --servative countries

oil-rich c countries like e saui arabiaia, and therere allies lie the united s states, as wewell s turkrkey early on -- whihich hed brining i in thousands off extel fighters. players,,tity of thesese of these s supporters, has t tud this into a conflicict that is much larger than syria.. it b became a conflflict that is much morore than just aboutut s. if w we d don't realize this development and the implications of this development, we will be -- if we don't have this diagnosis, in my view, we will wilillesting things that not wowork. theyey even may be counterproductive. i ththink we all have a duty frm aa m moral, political, and intellectual, toto call for the end of the k killing. the manner in which we call for ththis, however, actually mattts because some of thesese calls ae not going to b be h heeded.

a lot of callslsfor instance, address the uniteted states. as if the advocates of dedemocry andd indepenendence for syria he the same i interests as the unid states. anand they do not. the hihistory of the united d ss involvlvement in the r region ss otherwisise. it is nonot about calling or not calllling for the end of ththe kikiings. that i is not an issue. the end of the killing and the end of the massacres and the end of the atrocities commititted mostly by the regime, at this point, and the russians, especially at this point i should say, is a no-brainer. there is no individual that would actually say, no, let us go on, u unless they a are firmn the regime side in a way that actutually does not take the interest of most syrians i into consideration. the question is, how do we go about doing that? it is important to dissent from our lofty ideals and our grandstanding statements to

discuss the complexity of the situation, which, unfortunately, will not be to the liking of any party. thatat is the problelem. wewe are looking for a solutionn that satisfifies one party exclclusively, and d it is not g to hapappen, espiaially after fl 201515 when the russians intervened on the side of the regime and p prevented any potential collapse. we are stuck in the situation where the best option is a least possible outcome. it is depressing. the killing that is taking place. but it is not something we can negotiate unless there is a tectonic shift. especially before the electionss or before the transfer of power in the united states. amy: professor, you talk about the other countries and also that you can't solve syria without dealing with yememen and iraq. i want you to respond to after

coburn who made this, or dust, they should compare the coverage of muzzle and east aleppo. it tells you a lot about the propaganda we consume. your thoughts on this? that particular piece. i heard about the headline. it is not also either a puzzle or not surprising. the coverage, whether it is by air satellite stations -- arab satellite stations or our mainstream stations here in the united states and perhaps europe have actually approached the syrian situation in such a highlights excessively and exclusively certain atrocities, which are, in fact, and that is no, you know, surprise some of which are in fact committed by the regime and its allies, especially russia at this point.

but when it comes to other kinds of conflicts which involved the bombardment of civilians as well as by those your supporting the rebels in syria, such a saudi arabia and the united ststates, that is fueling and refueling saudi air force or jetfighters as it bombards the rebels and -- it is, this sort of not just lacking, dishonest absent with the exclusion of major atrocities such as we have witnessed or heard a couple of weeks ago with the killing of several hundred civilians or yemenis on the side of the rebels. that was by saudi jetfighters. mosul is coconcerned, there is a consesensus against isis. at the manner in which the m mea proceedsn producining propagandd that completely eliminates what

is being addressed or what is being argued on the otheher side is actually horrendous. this is something that has fed narratives onry syria, the dominant ones. there are many other ways of understanding syria and ways thatatre more productiv it is just that they are drowned out by p propaganda, by the the soud of guns and jetfighters and bombs, and it is no wonder why today, even a brother and sister within one family, in syria or outside syria, are actually on complete opposite ins of the spectrum in addressing the problem and the solution. nermeen: i would like to turn to excerpt from the book i rob and by robin-- yassin-kassab and leila al-shami titled "burning country: syrians in revolution and war." the authors explain how extremist groups grew to such

prominence in the syrian opposition. writing -- "if the fsa had been seriously supported from outside, if assad had not been so generously armed and funded by russia and iran then the armed struggle might have lasted months rather than years, and civil activism might have quickly regained its role. but the war stretched on, and the liberated areas became death zones. this was the vacuum in which jihadism would thrive." bassam haddad, i would like you to respond to that, as well is the claim that some make that if the u.s. had not intervened and pushed for arming various groups, the syrian opposition would not be in the state it is in. while others say the u.s. did not support the opposition enough. yes, i mean, it kind of goes both ways. it is very important, in my view, to take that position seriously, the position that had the u.s. supported, which actually involves a readiness to support the intervention of the

u.s. which had been inintervenig in many ways that are not discussed as if the u.s. is just sitting on the sidelines. it is not. it has been arming groups and it has been signaling other countries to armed groups, and actually engaged itself in direct combat. but it is a very important, even if one disagrees, to take this proposition seriously. the problem with such propositions, because they are emotionally -- emotionally are correct, the problem was they do not actually with the political realities on the ground. they do not come forward with historical experience. her instance, the idea of had the u.s. supported the free syrian army early on, rings would have been different in a vacuum would not have been grown in which the jihadists were able to fill. there are two problems that i can immediate week think of. first, it assumes the opposition

is not fragmented the rebels by late 2011 or 2012 were not already fragmented whole. it assumes there is a central command that can actually take care of this sort of support and do something with it. but that is not the most important problematic assumption. the other assumption, and if you look at the history of support for rebel groups, the other assumption is that there is consensus among all possible interventionists. but they are split. supporting rebels early on and however scenario we can imagine, would have led not to success of the rebel movement against the entrenched brutal regime, it would have led instead to an escalation and an armed raise because the supporters of the regime would have naturally came in earlier with much more viciousness, much more force to

actually respopond by supporortg the regime and similar, if not a more extensive ways, for region that you are witnessing righght now. the support of the regime so far has been much more vigorous and bold about goioing farth than the supporters of the opposition . so those two assumptions do not hold. maybe in the reality in which the rebels are supported by the most powerfull possible interventionists across e region and the world, that would haveve actualllly made sense. and it actually does not hold water in the real world. professor, we have to wrap up, but you mentioned the u.s. elections. what do you think will change based on who is elected president here? and do you think that assad out, regime change, is a prerequisite for change their?? exley winsif trump

the presidency, everything is going to be ok. i'm joking. no, i think we have a serious problem in the sense that we expect so much out of the elections and out of new administrations in the u.s., and i'm not saying things will not change, but i think there is a consistency in u.s. policy that will not be subverted simply by the coming to power -- even of a personalities such as donald trump. what will change, i think, is not necessarily the best way to look at this. the best way to look at this is, what is the state of the battlefield between syria and the state of the international moods, vis-a-vis, what is happening in syria, by the time clinton or somebody takes over? and that is why the russians in the syrian regime are pushing

for a most brutal assault, which i think we have not seen yet mature, but we probably will, unfortunately -- they're pushing for this assault in order to take aleppo, control what is useed a useful syria, and that as leverage for any kind of negotiated settlement that might take lace later on, if at all. and by that time, it will actually have raised the bar so much for u.s. intervention that it would be very difficult to do very much, perhaps besides some sort of settlement, unless an all-out confrontational war is on the table. but it is not on the table now as a function of the problematics of enforcing, for instance, a no-fly zone, which is very close to going to war with russia -- which many policy

makers have been saying, it is that such a big deal. the u.s. can take out russia and we are underestimating how the threat of credible force by the u.s. will actually affect russian responses. perhaps. but perhaps notot. the appetite, however, is definitely not there right now and not in the next few weeks for very obvious reasons, having to do with the legacy of the obama administration, which has been described as very problematic for various reasons. but many others differ on whether that was actually the wrong thing to do. the point is that -- amy: we have 30 seconds. >> the point is, what we have -- happens on the ground in the next few weeks, in my view, is going to be horrendous. it is when to be brutal and it is going to -- at least the russian answered regimes are going to set the stage for some sort of an irreversible

situation territorially. in my view, set of calling for the u.s. to enter the war, the u.s. can actually place hard pressure on russia to force the proxies to come to a negotiated settlement in which all forces, all social forces in syria can ask lee have a role. -- actually have a role. the problem is, the u.s. is probably not willing to do this. not ready to do this yet because it will have to make compromises that has not been ready to make with its own allies and other areas in the region, including yemen and elsewhere. amy: bassam haddad, they could for being with us director of , the middle east and islamic studies program at george mason university. we will certainly continue to follow syria. we will bebe back in a minute. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen

shaikh. nermeen: we turn now to a stunning new expose for mother jones magazine looking at america's resurgent paramilitary movement. >> we have, thrououghout the country, groups of armed men, mostly white men, that see themselves as a defense against the federal government. courts proteststers plplanning o occupy a a federal building g in oregon for however l long it takes. >> they were arrested. what's pointing guns at officers. >> a lot of these emotions were born after obama got elected. initial movevement i in the 19's died down after george bush was elected and as soon as we elected the first black president, membership skyrocketed. nermeen: mother jones senior reporter shane bauer went undercover to report on the right-wing militia movement. using facebook, he joined the three percent united patriots militia, which operates in more

than a dozen states. bauer traveled to the u.s.-mexico border to join the militia on "operation spring break" -- a citizen n vigilante mission aid at catching undocumented immigrants. in a video accompanying the piece, bauer explains how he landed the job using his own name and personal information, despite his years as an award-winning journalist. collect when i set up my facebook page and whenever a reached out to these guys, i used my real name is to had they googled me, they wowould haveven a was a senior reporter at mother jones and they probably would not have allowed me into the organization. there are armed guards at ththe base, guguys with ar-15's patrolling it. i just kind of rolled up, had my camo these guys were really amped up. a lot of thehem are military veterans that had served in iraq, afghanistan. i was always worried when i was at least things, we were goioing

to actually run into somebody. my understandingng was if we did run into somomebody, w we were o call the base and the b basement callededhe borr r patr. we're not supposed to shootot anybody unless somebody shoots at us. but when we are going out on thesese operations, guys arere talking about hunting mexicans. the stuff they are saying, it is not hard to imagine a situation in which they are shooting 70. amy: for more we are going to berkeley, california. shane bauer joins us to discuss this expose headlined, "undercover with a border militia." it was funded in part by the puffin foundation. shane, welcome back to democracy now! explain exactly where you went and who these people were. >> thank you for having me, amy. initially, i joined a couple of militias in california and was training with them for several months, but my main interest was ofa kind of new phenomenon nationally organized militias. is probably the largest

of these groups. amy: explain the name, the three percent. >> their part of a larger movementnt that calls itself the three percentrt movement. they believe the american revolution was won by 3% of the population and t the idea is tht if they can get 3% of the population behind them, they can restore the bill of rights. that is kind of how they look at their work. nermeen: duties paramilitary organizations tend to have a disprorortionate number of military v veterans? and if so, shane bauer, why do you think that is? >> it varies from group to group. -- three percenter

groups, i had one military marine veteran who told me that he considered this therapy. he said it reminded him a lot of afghanistan. i had heard from a number of these guys that when they left the militarary, they miss the kd of sense of camaraderie that they found in the military. i kind of had the sense that they came back home and did not find what they had hoped and they felt somewhat alienated. in the militia, they kind of, you know, get a sense of what they had in the military. a lot of these guys also seemed to be pretty disillusioned with the military leadership and had a sense of loyalty to their former soldiers, but were generally very skeptical and frustrated with the federal government itself. talk about where you went. first, i want to play this video clip that accompanies your report at mother jones. together with fusion. the militia group unexpectedly

meeting up with u.s. border patrol in the dark after a few tense moments, recognizing one another. this is a border patrol agent who identifies himself as an inintelligence officer speakingo the militia after the encounter, followed by your commentary. >> i was surprised to see how much the border patrol is cooperating with these guys. the kind of inside world and see the ways these guys are talking about hunting mexicans and that kind of stuff. and then do see federal law enforcement, not only tolerate them, but kind of use them in a certain way.

amy: so there you have it, shane, border patrol agent saying it impresses me you're coming in to do my job for no pay at all. talk about what they were doing together, what the border patrol told them to do -- for example, if they see water in the desert, bottles of water, perhaps left for migrants, to dump it? >> yeah. ogales, out in n arizona, way out in the middle of the desert. as remote as you can get. i saw many interactions between the militia and the border patrol. the border patrol would come to the militia base, sometimes bring as doughnut. in this particular case, when we saw this man who said he was an intelligence officer, he was directing us where to set up to find people crossing the border. he actually took us to show us

the exact locations where they said we should set up. story, iblishing this reached out to the leadership of the three percent united patriots who i was with on the border. i spoke to the leader, mike morris, and i asked him about his relationship with the border patrol. he said he was still, now that he's back in colorado, was in contact with the border patrol on a weekly basis. and whenever they set up an operation, they talked to the border patrol and the border patrol would tell them when to come down and where to set up. in that particular interaction, the border patrol was telling us to destroy food d and water that we found in the desert. i saw ththat happen inin the de. --shane bauer, could you talk about how militia members received training and by whom and what kind of training? one person you spoke to told you that waterboarding and casing

are part of their training. could you say a little bit about that? >> so right now we have more than 270 militias across ththe country, accordiding to the sosouthern povoverty law center. most of them are not doing these kind of border operationsns but are m more kinf regionally focused. part ofou know, a core being in a militia is doing this type of paramilitary training. so guys get together at least oncece a month, s sometimes evey week dependingng on the group, d do kin o of -- in small group infantry type training. the three percent united patriots in particular also have their own kind of special forces within t the militia. they describe to me when i was in arizona, some of that training which involved 36 where newstretch

members, new recruitits are putn a scenario where there are told they have been captured by bordrder cartel. their sleep deprprived for 36 hours, waterboarded. they described putting people and what they call stress boxes and naked except for a t-shirt out in thehe colorado winter and are tased and sometimes cattle in theed through holes box.x. the eveven describibe one instae in which a man, who there were doing this mock interrogation with, would not speak. they brought in a female member of the militia and said if you would not speak, they would tase her. the man who told me this story said he proceeded to taste this woman and cattle prod her. i i also witnesseded them, i me, they told a border patrol also about these trainings. they were boasting about it.

this intelligence officer of the border patrol was just kind of laughing. amy: talk about the legality of these militias and all of the states that are operating in, how heavily armed be law or. >> these militias, they call themselves militias because they're associating themselves with the militia of the rerevolutionary warr and the tie after the revevolutionary war. there e have been laws that have carried over and stay on ththe books from that titime come a te when state and the federal government were requiring every white male to be a part of ththe militia. ththey are essentially poiointio esee oldld laws and saying, , we are this militia. the issue is that a lot off states have laws that ban militia training or paramilitary training. these laws have never -- there have been no cases of these laws being enforced.

amamy: earlier this momonth, i t to ask about another militia. three members of a kansas militia known as the crusaders were arrested for plotting to blow up an apartment complex in kansas that is home to many somali refugees and houses a mosque. all three militia members were white men in their late 40's. according to the fbi, the militia supported anti-muslim, anti-immigrant and antigovernment beliefs. shane bauer, could you say whether you think that is representative of most militia groups? who are they fighting against in addition to the federal government? >> look, these militias and their members all have kind of different motives. the kind of common thread is they see themselves as a defense against what they call a tyranny of the federal government. many of them would also say their primary focus is to prepare for disasters, whether

it be a natural disaster or, you know, kind of civil unrest. a lot of them will talk about black lives matter. they talk a lot about islamic terrororism. they will say they are not racist. they are not white supremacist in the sense that we think of. however, it is very comommon to hear and to see on social media anti-muslim rhetoric and anti-immigrant rhetoric. you know him a i think most militias would distance themselves from the acts it just described. many of them actually distanced themselves from what happened in burns, oregon, recently. there are pretty large number of cases in the past five or 10 years of militia factions,

kind of going off and planning terrorist attacks. many have been supported by the fbi. there are also -- there was a case not long ago in georgia of a militia killing three people. militia leader killed his wife for life insurance money and put that money into buying arms for his militia. two members of the militia ended up killing two people that they believed knew too much. the movement is very fractured groups up being small that are very isolated and there is a risk of these smaller groups -- amy: shane, we have to leave it there, but it is a fascinating investigation, undercover operation. shane bauer is an award-winning senior reporter at mother jones. we will link to your piece "undercover with a border militia."

that does it for the show. i will be speaking tonight in tempe, arizona at arizona university. check our website. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! 8úo. box 693 xú

laura: this week on the show, activists running for congress, how do they do it? pramamila jayapal has been runng fofor congressss all year.r. up here.hat coming the place e where people who say it cannot be done take a backseat to the people who are doing it.