06/29/17 06/29/17 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is democracy y now! we look at something as important to all of us as health care, we can see now the trump administration is during forth the koch internetworks agenda. it is a perfect microcosm of what i try to get that in the book because it shows us that the donor network is driving the republican party, rather than its own constituents. amy: as republicans attempt to

revive a highly unpopular bill to overturn obamacare, we look at the right's attempt to reshape the role of the federal government -- from healthcare to education to housing -- with duke university historian professor nancy maclean, author of the new book, "democracy in chains: the deep history of the radical right's stealth plan for america." maclean also uncovers the instrumental role the late libertarian economist james buchanan played in the right's campaign to eliminate unions, suppress voting, and privatize schools. buchanan was an economist to train at the university of chicago and went on t to a number of virginia institutions over the years. he won the nobel prize in 1986 for his original contributions to our understanding of political economy. itit was james buchahanan who tt charles koch for capitalism to thrive, democracy must be in chains. amy: president trump says the environmental protection agency will roll back and obama policy

-- environmental policy. pres. trump: the so-called waters of the united states rule is one of the worst examples of federal regulation and it has truly run amok. amy: this comes as the intercept reports the person trump has tapped to be the epa's water safety official is a former lobbyist with deep ties to a fossil fuel advocacy group that promotes the dakota access pipeline and offshore drilling. we will speak with investigative reporter lee fang. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. republican leaders scrambled wednesday to rescue a senate plan to repeal and replace the affordable care act after at least republican senators nine said they could not support their party's bill.

senate majority leader mitch mcconnell said he hoped to finish a revised bill by friday and would submit it to the congressional budget office for review ahead of plans to take up the measure after a week-long recess for the fourth of july. mcconnell abandoned a push for a vote this week after some republicans balked over the cbo's finding that the senate bill would cause 22 million americans to lose their health insurance over the next decade. at the white house, president trump predicted the senate would still pass a repeal of obamacare. pres. trump: health care is working along very well. we could have a big surprise with a great health care package. >> any big surprises? pres. trump: it is going to be great. amy: meanwhile, on capitol hill, demonstrators flooded the offices of several republican senators wednesday in what they called a last stand to prevent a repeal of the affordable care act. at a sit-in protest at the offices of pennsnsylvania's dan

toomey, protesesters chanted, "kill ththe bill, don't kill me" similar protests tarargeted senators tom cotton of arkansas, marco rubio of florida, rob portman of ohio, and cory gardner of colorado. meanwhile, constituents of lisa murkowski flooded the alaskan senator's office urging her to vote no on the republican healthcare bill. they were met by murkowski's aide, kevin sweeney. >> senator murkowski is very deliberate. senator murkowski -- she has shown us in the past she wants to do what is right for alaska, but she needs to know exactly what it is that she is doing. she wants to know what the impact is going be on alalaska. >> it is going to kill people. it is not hard to figure out. this bill has actuariries attacd to it that show the only way these number's come about to the cbo is if people die early. amy: arrested 40 people on

-- during wewednesday's protest, police arrested 40 people on mimisdemeanor charges of unlawfl crowding, obstructing,g, or incommoding. president trump's ban on refugees and travelers from six muslim-majority countries will partially take effect this evening after the supreme court said it will examine the constitutionality of the order. the ruling will affect some travelers from libya, iran, somalia, sudan, syria, and yemen. beginning at 8:00 p.m. eastern time, foreign nationals from those countries who can't show a credible claim of a bona fide relationship with a person or entity in the united states will be barred from entering the country. the ban is set to last for 90 days, meaning it will expire ahead of an expected ruling from the supreme court in october. in afghanistan, leaders of nato say the military alliance will send more troops to you work with u.s.-backed afghan security forces, extending the longest war in u.s. history. nato secretary-general jens stoltenberg said thursday

15 nations will contribute to the increase, though he did not say how many additional troops nato members would send. u.s. military leaders have asked for an additional 3000 the 5000 troooops after president g gavee pentagon authority to set troop levels. back on capitol hill, anti-torture protesters interrupted a senate panel wednesday as it heard testimony from the trump administration's pick to become the transportation department's top lawyer. the protests came during a confirmation hearing for steven bradbury, who formerly served in the justice department's office of legal counsel. in 2005, bradbury authored memos justifying the bush administration's use of torture in interrogations. this is democratic senenator tay duckworth questioning bradbury. >> and archititect for detainine abususe in the form of wateterboarding g and otr foforf totorture, in my opinion, that alone should disqualify you for futu govovernmentt servivi postd

and while you're nominated to serve as dot t and not as justi, your willingness to o aid and at torte demonstrtrates a f failure of moral and professioiol character that makes you dangerous regardless of which agency you serve in. amy: steven bradbury's confirmation hearing came as the u.n. high commissioner for human rights blasted what he called president trump's persistent flirtation with torture. zeid ra'ad al-hussein said -- "the president of the united states of america has said that torture could be necessary in certain circumstances. there is no longer any pretense. they are breaking long-held taboos. the dangers to the entire system of international law are therefore very real." in media news, three reporters with cnn resigned this week after their network retracted a report alleging a senior trump adviser is under investigation by congress. cnn's story cited a single anonymous source who alleged the senate intelligence committee was investigating whether the adviser, anthony scaramucci, met

with the chief executive of a russian investment fund ahead of donald trump's inauguration, and whether the pair discussed u.s. sanctions against russia. the retraction prompted a twitter rant from president trump, who tweeted -- "so they caught fake news cnn cold, but what about nbc, cbs & abc? what about the failing new york times & washington post? they are all fake news!" meanwhile, the "washington post" reports the trump organization publicly posted framed copies of a fake "time magazine" cover lauding donald trump at least five trump properties. the phony "time" cover features a portrait of trump next to the headlines, "the 'apprentice' is a television smash!" and "trump is hitting on all frontseven tv!" "time magazine" has asked the president toto remove these fake covers frohis s propertities. the head of the environmental protection agency met privately with dow chemical's ceo ahead of an epa decision to allow the use

of a pesticide that has sickened farm workers and is known to cause brain damage in children. the associated press reports epa chief scott pruitt met for about half an hour with dow ceo andrew liveris at a hotel in houston, texas, on march 9. 20 days later pruitt's agency , unexpectedly reversed course and approved use of the pesticide, which is manufactured by dow. meanwhile, the epa has announced new plans to roll back an obama administration policy that environmentalists say will remove drinking water safeguards for one in three americans and threaten wetlands and thousands of streams that flow into larger rivers and lakes. the 2015 regulation determined more than half of the country's waterways are covered under the clean water act. in a statement tuesday, epa chief scott pruitt announced plans to rescind the rule and launch a review of which water bodies will fall under federal protection. meanwhile, the intercept reports that the person trump has appointed to head the epa agency

in charge of water safety is a former lobbyist with deep ties to a fossil fuel advocacy group that promotes the dakota access pipeline and controversial offshore drilling efefforts. dennis lee forsgren will help oversee the epa's office of water, which implements the landmark clean water and safe drinking water acts that were passed in the early 1970's. this includes studying the toxic effects of fracking on groundwater safety, the downstream consequences of inindustrial pollutatants, and e environmental impact of oioil spspills. we will have more on this story later in the broadcast. libya, rescue workers recovered the bodies of five migrants wednesday who drowned in the mediterranean as they attempted their trip to europe. the bodies were found as libya's coast guard said it picked up some 5000 migrantnts at sea. meanwhile,e, the itaan navy brought hundndreds of migrgranto shorore after, , including anant

who died o of heat r related cas shortly after he and h his mothr were rescued. internationanal organization for migrationent some 1 11,000 migrants have been pulled from unsafe and overcrowded boats. this week alone. in mexico city, journalists and their supporters rallied wednesday outside the national palace to call on the government to take action to end a spate of attacks on media workers. the protest came as the committee to protetect journalis said mexico is the world's deadliest country for reporters so far in 2017. this is mexican investigative reported alvaro delgado. committee to protect journalists >> there is a serious crisis of violence against journalists. it is not new, but even in recent years. it is in the context of the violence that exists in the country, but to a large extent, the crisis is worsened by the disdainful andnd often compliciy conduct by the government of mexico. amy: the protest came after body of journalist salvador adame was discovered in the state of

michoacan more than a month after he was kidnapped. adadame is at least the seventh journalist to be killed in mexico this year. back in the united states, a court in georgia has set in october 23 court date for u.s. intelligence contractor reality lee winner who has pleaded not guilty unlinking documents claiming russian intelligence conducted a cyber attack on at least one u.s. voting software company just days before last november's election. has been an ideal and is being held in jail in making county, georgia. -- in lincoln county, georgia. in minnesota, the city of st. anthony will pay nearly $3 million to the family of philando castile to settle a wrongful death lawsuit less than two weeks after officer jeronimo yanez was acquitted on manslaughter charges for killing castile during a traffic stop last year. a family lawyer said the settlement will help benefit the philando castile relief foundation, set up to help victims of gun violence and to provide relief for the grieving. the settlement follows a similar deal struck last week in

ferguson, missouri, between the city of ferguson and the parents of michael brown over the killing of their son by white police officer darren wilson in 2014. in the netherlands, the widows of nine men who were hanged by nigeria's military government in 1995 have filed suit against shell oil in a dutch court, charging thehe companyith complicity in the depths. amonthosose ngs was kin sa rrawiwa. despite widespread international protests, he was hangedndnder the ninirian dictorship after a am triallolong wh eieigh her aivists. inittle ro, arkans, a driv plowed in a monumt to the tecommandmen on wednesy, destroyg the regious dispy less tn a daafter statofficial erted it on e grous of the statcapitol. a deo post to fabook owed theoment e monument was destroyed.

>> oh, m my goodness.. freedom! amy: the driver, michael t. reed, was arrested on felony charges. reed is accused of a similar act in 2014 that destroyed a public monument to the ten commandments in oklahoma. arkansas officials have vowed to rebuild their state's monument, even though the american civil liberties union has promised to challenge the display as a violation of the first amendment's establishment clause. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. nermeen: and i am nermeen shaikh. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. as senate majority leaders mitch -- as senate majority leader mitch mcconnell attempts to revive a bill to overturn obamacare, we look today at the radical right's attempt to reshape the role of the federal government -- from health care

to education to housing. while the congressional budget office predicted 22 million would lose health insurance as a result of the senate bill, some forces in the republican party, including the billionaire koch brothers, felt the bill did not go far enough. this comes as the koch brothers recently announced plans to spend between $300 million and $400 million in the 2018 midterm elections. during a retreat last week charles koch said -- "we are more optimistic now about what we can accomplish than we have ever been." amy: well, as the koch brotherss gear up for 2018, we turn now to look at the ideological roots that have reshaped the republican party in recent decades. a new book by the historian nancy maclean uncovers the instrumental role the late libertarian economist james buchanan played in the right's campaign to eliminate unions, suppress voting, privatize schools, and curb democratic majority rule.

her book is titled "democracy in chains: the deep history of the radical right's stealth plan for america." maclean welcome to democracy now! it is great to have you with us. let's start with today's headline. the health care bill. deeply unpopular. let's look quickly at the polls across the board. yet the quinnipiac poll that says 16% of people in this country approved republican plan. you have the usa today poll, only 12%. you another one, 17%. and yet the republicans are attempting to revive it and push it through once again. "democracy in chains," you lay out the deep history of the radical right's plan for america. talk about this is an example of

what you have found. >> y yes. i had never encountered james buchanan before i started the research that ultimately became this book. what i learned in the course of that research is at this economist who is trained at the university of chicago, who is frida, the same group as he went a distinctive way. she's the economic tools he got at the university of chicago told that politics in a new way and produced the malaliki the dk ultimately the cynicism that was see all around us today and that donald trump's candidacy and rhetoric embodies. in the health care debate, what we see is that buchanan gave the advice to others on the right and to his corporate funders and donors and the people he talked to that for capitalism of the kind they wanted to thrive, democracy must be in chains, must be in effect shackled because it would t take too much

from people of great wealth and that would be a problem for them. so we see this being played out in the health care debate now in which, as you quoted in those polls, most people are horrified by this republican proposal. they don't want it. they understand people will l de from it. they understand people who have cancer will be paying astronomical rates for health care. they understand what a total disaster it is, yet one of our major political parties has become cap live to these donor interest using the strategy that comes from buchanan about changing the incentives of the rules in their beholden. what is fascinating is that our democracy is still working. some senate republicans are wavering because they are listening to their constituents and their voters and getting's g tons of goals. amy: talked about his

relationship to a key player in all of this, the koch others, that just tells a retreat. talk about specifically what the relationship is as they say they're going to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into the elections coming up. >> i should say it is an interesting ststory because they pushed james buchanan aside when he began raising queststions. he was not as involved in the rollout. it is his idea, but they did not treat him very well at the end. amy: how did they know each other? book onbuchanan's which unrest in 1969 to koch reprinted. they got to know each other then. charles koch joined a society, which many of your listers will familiar with, in 1970 and

advertise for all of his functions and his organizations and his talent pipelines and recruitment efforts -- amy: and that is? >> in invitation-only society by what some people would call free-market fundamentalists launched in 1947. it has spread to the entire world now. it is invitation only and economists, corporate officials, many leading operatives of the koch-find a network. it is a very significant body. the society meeting setting of these ideas were discussed and strategies were developed to implement, from what i've been able to pick up in the documentary trail. koch and b can begin again to cooperate particularly in the 1970's as koch was launching the cato institute. got to know each other over the

years.s. buchanan also advised the on aan dictatator ship constitutition that would enable them to make a a transition back to elected government while keeping the radical unpopular changes that they made in place. in the 1980'0's in the wake of that expense, began began to advise charles koch, cato institute, on a strategy for social security privatization -- which again would be starting from the recognition that what they wanted was not popular with any constituency in america. the old, the, young, black, white, men, women -- nobody wants to see social security changed in the way these guys wanted to change it, so he laid out a step-by-step strategy for how to do that will stop how to spread misinformation, how to break up existing coalitions, so that they would not be in the fight because they would be the most motivated -- it is quite breathtaking stutuff.

it is the kind of strategic thinking now informing the entirere koch apparatus in our country. really serious stuff. we've had such brilliant journalism about the money trail on all of this in the dark money. but to really understand what is going on, i think we need to understand the ideas that are guiding this and what the end game is. i think once people understand that and now totally hostile it is to democracy as we have known it over the -- since 1900, i think they w will realally understand the scale of the threat we are faced with. nermeen: buchanan was from the south. unlike other chicago school economists. can you explain how that was relevant to the ideas he came up with and also the extent to which he transformed his ideas his ideas were able to transform? >> he was born in tennessee, raised in the south.

a fellowship required him to go back and teach in the southern institution after he completed his degree. he specialized in public finance, which was very andrtant to many governors state legislatures. in the south, there was a very draconian approach to public finance. when he came home, he said there shouould never be -- there shoud be no deficit of any kind, no deficit spending, very person moneys approach to public spending of every kind. he arrived in virginia in 1956, just as that state was leading the south in a fight against brown versus board of education. i want to be clear, i have no evidence of buchanan saying anything about race directly in his fight against brown versus board of education. but what he did come using his chicago economics training, is make a case for arch privatization of all virginia public education.

we do not even have the verb "privatize" or the noun" privatization" then. that was the demand of the most arch segregationists. in the end, begin his proposal was too radical, just like today with health care. it was too radical for even the the right-wing virginia -- virginia legislature. it was defeated. it was in the wake of that defeat, he began to develop this as a state thinking of virginia finally became open to the majority of it citizens. i should add, white as well as black. her practiced but suppression to such an extraordinary degree, they said next to mississippi, i it was a hotbed of democracy. we're going to go to break and come back to this discussion. our guest is nancy maclean, author of the new book "democracy in chains: the deep history of the radical right's stealth plan for america." she's the professor of history

and public policy at duke university. we will be back with her in a minute. ♪ [music break]

amy: "rhythm of life" by tank and the bangas. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: we are speaking with nancy maclean, author of "democracy in chains: the deep history of the radical right's stealth plan for america." history andessor of public policy at duke university. i would like to get your response to an excerpt from the bbc tv documentary series directed by adam curtis. the documentary is called "the

trap: what happened to our dream of freedom?" in this clip, james buchanan spleens why he believes ththeres no s suchhing as the public interestst. >> there's certainly nono measurabable concept meaningful- that can be called the public interest. because how do you weigh different interests diffeferent groups and what theyey can get t it? the public interest t as a politician things it doeoes not mean it exists. it is what he thinks is good for the country. if you would come outut and say that, that is one thing. but behind us hypocrisy of calling somethingng in the p puc interest as if it exists, that is what i was trying to tear down. nermeen: that was james buchanan in the bbc tv series directed by adam curtis. tell us, firstu

of all, respond to what he says about the public interest and also you say that trump is almost the logical conclusion of some of buchanan's ideas. so could you explain what you mean by that and what ideas specifically? >> i i actually have never seen the clip you just pupulled, so i just want to underscore for listeners those words. that is what i wanted to tear down, the idea of a public interest. when we try to understand the mayhem that is unfolding all around us, the ugliness that is out there, the gross aspersions on people's character who are help peopleou know, in our society, write? and make a better country, this is where that comes from. that was buchanan's ideas, that we're all just self-interested actors and nobody is telling the truth. and second i forgot the follow-up. nermeen: about what thee connection is -- >> with trump, of course.

if you listen to his rhetoric on the campaign trail, he is speaking that when which of tearing down the notion of the public interest, of slandering any of his c critics, of makakig anybody who is from the opposition party look -- you know, crooked hillary. it comes from the speak in a notion that our modern politics is essentially a system of corruption that transfers from some people to others in this language of makers and takers that we have is very much buchananize. portrayayed citizens. he talked about coalitions of exploitation. for example, if you had home health care workers who were working with public health professionals who were trying to expand the amount of money for for child's health care, he would see that as exploiting wealthy taxpayers. this is the language the republican party has picked off and challenged from the radical right. he used the words "predators and prey."

this is antithetical, not just a 20 century democracy, but to the ideas on which this country was founded, the idea there is something "we the people" and together through deliberation we can make a m more perfect union. amy: this is a clip of an interview with white house strarategist steve bannon at the conservative political action conference. >> if you look at the lines of work, i break it down into three verticals. the first is national security and sovereignty come your intelligence, defense depapartment, homeme executeted. ththe second line of work is econonomic nationalism. , what isrd, broadly deconstruction of the administrative state. if you look at these cabinet appointetees, there were selectd for a reason and that is the deconstruction -- the way the progress of left runs is that they cannot get it passed, they will put it into some e sort of regulation in an agency. it is all going to be deconstructed. amy: that was steve bannon speaking at cpac, talking about

of theonstruction state. as they focus on a series of issues in washington, whether it is the health care plan or the russia investigation, in fact, there is a very systematic, very fast dismantling of the administrative state that is going on. i was wondering if you could comment on that and some of the people who are involved with this from scott pruitt to mick mulvaney, the omb director, even to the white house counsel don again. >> yes, thank you. this notion that abandon represents something buried isferent from t the kochs troubling because it leads us to not notice exactly what you're clip just showed, that he is utterly devoted to deconstructing the administrative state. this also comes from buchananite thinking this has -- this includes public health professionals, too, this apparatus has try to discredit people who test children's blood

for lead. but ththey will say that agency officials only want to expand -- they don't care about the issues they're working on, they just want their own self aggrandizement. so bannon is expressing this and talking about the deconstruction of the administrative state and they are doing it, as you pointed out, amy, and your opening new segment about all of the environment or regulations thereunder income all caps on of the regulations they are undoing . as we focus on trump's tweets, they're undermining core features of our regulatory system on which we all depend for our health, well-being, clean water and air and the quality of our public health apparatus. see this in the republican party being captured by this donor network because they vote against things like funding for zika and ebola. they don't believe in public health. they just come from a different.

will system. amy: how did you find out about the nobel prize-winning economist buchanan and his close ties to the koch brothers, particularly charles koch? >> i did not set out looking for this man. he announced himself to me from the archives. i had just finished a book on something else when i happened on the story of the school closures in prince edward county from 1959 to 1964 in protest against brown versus board of education and in the name of individual liberty and states rights. the county virginia bluefly shut down its outlook school system and sent all of the white children off to private schools in deprived like children of any formal education for five years. children ofblack any formal education for five years. was essentially school vouchers. i became intrigued about this. alan milton fririedman had writn as firirst case for vouchers

wererch segregationists going to say they're going to completelyly shut down. what about these people talk about a free society and liberty, what are they doing essentially a betting the most arch segregationists who are tried to destroy public education in order to preserve segregation? buchanan kept appearing with different reports, pushing, pushing, pushing for the most arch privatization and then -- i follow this reports. he came on my radar. he advised the chihilean constitution that made it so that when there was the tradition of transition back to elected government, only super, super majorities of people would be able to affect change. essentially, he shackled -- helped shackle democracy in chile. pinochet.hored d up

>> is a chilling story. my third date of point was moving to north carolina in 2010 and seeing the radical republican t takeover of my stae government. what they were doing was a concrete incarnation of what buchanan hadad written about. that included things from thee most to akoni and unemployment -- draconian and employment changes we have seen in the country, later a monster voter suppression bill, some of the most arch gerrymandering in the country, undermining public education the shifting resources . the list goes on. 30 things if we had time that theyey did in norh carolina, bubut that helped me o see whwhat was going on. also, the person is crucial in north carolina jane mayer pointed out, art pope, has been working with the kochs for

several decades now. he used the phrase that his organization used "big bang" to describe what you're doing. that is a phrase that comes out of the george nation -- george , someone ththaton charles koch has worked with for years, that if you want to push through this agenda that most people do not want and will not support if they knew it was coming, he should have a big day. you should have clustered big bang's. amy: clustered big bangs. meaning? >> that you push things through very radically, whole series of things. you push out so much so quickly that people are utterly shocked. they don't even know where to start to resist. they can't respond to the whole monopoly of measures. and while they are shocked and dazed coming of effectively the terrain. amy: let's turn to reverend dr. william barber. you're talking about north the northpresident of

carolina naacp, one of the state's leading progressive voices. we have spoken him over the years. this is in 2012 when he e talked about the role of art pope in north carolina state politics. >> some of the leaders of a group are highly connected to the tea party elements and the koch brotherers money. amy: the billionaire funders of the republican party. >> we call art pope little koch brother. amy: he is who? these pope, who funds ultraconservative groups, has been something like $40 million of his own money to try to take over the state legislature. they are the ones that have pushed all of this regressive voting rights and amendment one. amy: on same-sex marriage. >> we clearly know what is up. the reality is, they could not handle this differs electorate

that is now been produced by this progressive voting laws that we have the southern state. -- instead in this ,f dylan with the issue of jobs where we lost 300,000 jobs because of bad policies of the last of administration during the bush era. instead of dealing with that, they attacked voting righthts. tried to pass voter id. amy: that was reverend william barber in 2012. we were speaking at the democratic convention that was taking place. reverend barber has gone on to lead the moral monday's movement, become a major figure in civil rights and human rights in this country, head of the north carolina and of lee cp -- naacp. this alslso goes to the resistance. you mentioned earlier about t te book "campus unrest" other by

james buchanan in the 1960's. if you could talk about what he proposes as the strategies to deal not only with campus unrest, but with the kind of resistance that we're seeing even today, though in factt he s not around anymore, buchanan. "academiabook called and anarchy" he proposed full tuition, no more state sensible public higher education. you should pay full price tuition or not be there because otherwise you would have a perverse incentive to organize and do other thingngs thhan studying. you wanted to o do away with faculty governance. he wanted to have donors and state legislators exercisise cocontrol over public ininstitus of higher education. we're seeing this in red d contl across the country. there's a brilliant documentary called "starving the beast" that

i urge people to watch.. that is the education piece. the other piece that buchanan's ideas are the state strategy. theave talked about federal. i think listeners need to be aware much of this is being rolled out the state level and i think the state level is key becacause they already fully control -- they have trifecta in 25 states, democrats only have that in six states. in those 25 states come there effectively building up a kind of turning it over progressive --se does close sees progressive policies. he talks about privatization, decentralization, evolution, and a few more things. basically, the idea was that you could use states to website one another. we call it race for the bottom. of the ultimate big bang this project is they want to change our constitution.

they are building toward a constitutional convention. they have 28 states that have called for this constitutionalist convention. they need six more. speaking to one of resistance, the way they plan to get those six more is byby doing these things like ththese very aggressive rigight to work laws, to undermine unions because unions had been defenders of democracy for all of us, attacking public education because public school teachers have been important forces for democracy and defending democracy for all of us. the gerrymandering, voter suppression -- all of those efforts are designed to suppress the popular voice because these people know if majorities understood what these guys have in mind for them, they would resist. they would oppose and they would try to stop it, as there do with the health care. where they can see it is concrete. this means people will die. people are responding to that. they want to stotop that resistance, and thatat is why they're doing the things they

do. the single most important thing in my book i hope people will take away is the number of times these people talk about what they're doing in the clear knowledge they are a minority movement and that they can never persuade the majority, and that is why they're operating in the way they are. nermeen: could you speak specifically about what buchanan, his take on social movements and white was important to block social movements? >> he did not actually write -- he talk much more about groups. the very idea of social movement like the public interest, could not possibly exist because we're just aggregations of individuals doing ourselves seeking. he very clearly understood that the labor movement that was built up in the 1930's, the cio, a very progressive force in all public life for public transparency, for employment security, old age security, just all of these things the cio was a very progressive f force and t

deeply alarmed the southern elite with whom buchanan was aligned. the cio was the first thing. the civil rights movement was another. many of us think of the civil rights movement of fighting attitudinal racism. buchanan understood if the civil rights movement succeeded andndf african-americans were able to vote and change public policy, it would be costly because people who have been held in poverty, whose schools were terrible, who were denied public health are g going to want chans and will vote for this changes and elect people who will bring themem. amy:y: that goes to the central issue of voter suppression. you say they recognize that would always be a minority, so then you have to suppress the will of the majority. >> absolutely. let me add german bring was a well-established practice in the south -- let me add gerrymandering was a well-established practice in the south. they grossly overrepresented rural districts and underrepresented not only

cities, but the suburbs or the were more moderate white republicans. one historian who looked at this pointed out that if f the cities and suburbs have been able to vote in proportion to their numbers, massive resistance would not have passed. they would not have shutdowns will's because so many people did not want it to stop all of the things we're seeing now we can trace back to then. my question for america is, do we want to live in a cosmsmetically updated version f 1950's virginia or do we want to keep making the kind of progress toward an inclusive democracy that we had been making in the past few decades? nermeen: talk about the idea of libertarianism. it is very popular now amongst young people. what was buchanan's relationship -- what did he think of libertarianism? did he articulate a position, what it meant for him? >> yes. as been thefreedom

highest value. he said "i don't want to control you and i don't to be controlled by you." that sounds really nice. we all probably feel like that, right? but what he was getting at in that is that the control the libertarians want to resist, at least the architects of the strategy were looking at, not necessarily the teenagers who like the anti-empipire kind of politics, they don't want to be controlled by democracy. they just want to do their own thing. that is particulararly true for economic liberty. from what i have been able to learn and study in this movement over the years following its intellectuals and operations, whatever they say about liberty, ultimately comes down to economic liberty. they're happy to sacrifice political or civil liberties in order to protect that economic liberty. there is a beautiful column by langstston hughes, which i shoud carry my back pocket and i hahaven't but i i will after ths because i'm embarrassed not to have it. in that poem, langston hughes talks about the difference

between liberty and freedom. basically talks about liberty as a source of nightmares because liberty is the idea of the slaveholders that was used to keep african-americans down for so long. where is he talks about freedom as a beautiful thing. what is important for progressives now and people who apparatus, wech have to take back the language of freedom. the civil rights movement, the slogan was "freedom now." we understand we need to do it together in collaboration. will suppress all of our freedoms together economic freedom. eight ago david koch in 1980 renesola for tearing party's vice presidential candidate. finally, as you link james buchanan, your researchh on the late nobel prize-winning economist, to what we're seeing today in the trump administration -- let's be

clear, the koch brothers are opposed to the current republican health care bill because it does not go far enough. >> yes. i do want to say, t, that buchanan was not around for the final rollout of this. as i said at the outset, i think he was a little appalled at what was being done in his name. for example, as soon as the koch --oved into george mason george mason university right outside easy, convenient to exercise control in washington -- as soon as they moved in and made their first big to million dollar commitment in 1997, they moved in all of these operatives, they started climbing titles for themselves,, president of this, and they also nonprofit taxaxg law according to at least one gramm,blower and wendy wife of f phil gramm, was sendig a very partisan letters, fundraising letters for the buchanan center saying how it

was going to change our politics. i think that is interesting. buchanan wasknow sickened by that. buchanan pulls away from this as it takes off, but koch is so well-funded -- we would not be your without buchanan's ideas and koch money. the money they are pulled together, they're pushing this system through in a way i actually believe might have appalled buchanan, too, because it is such a task use of the --itical system and of the grotesque use of the political system. amy: we want to thank you for being with us, nancy maclean, author of "democracy in chains: the deep history of the radical right's stealth plan for america." professor of history and public policy at duke university. when we come back, the epa's new water safety official is a lobbyist with deep ties to the dakota access pipeline. we will talk about that with the intercept investigative reporter lee fang. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: "hold tight" by sinkane. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: we turn now to the latest move by the trump administration to undo president obama's environmental legacy. trump has already withdrawn the united states from the paris , change agreement, rescinded commission reversed a , moratorium on leasing federal lands, and proposed deep cuts to the environmental protection agency in his proposed bududget. on the epa announced new plans tuesday, to roll back an obama administration policy that environmentalists say will remove drinking water safeguards for one in three americans, and threaten thousands of streams that flow into larger rivers and lakes, as well as wetland areas

that filter pollutants and absorb floodwaters. the 2015 regulation known as "waters of the united states" determined that more than half of the country's waterways are covered under the clean water act. amy: now the intercept has revealed the person that president trump has tapped to head the epa agency in charge of water safety is a former lobbyist with deep ties to a fossil fuel advocacy group that promotes the dakota access pipeline and offshore drilling. dennis lee forsgren will help oversee the epa's office of water, which implements the landmark clean water and safe drinking water act that were passed in the early 1970's. this includes studying the toxic effects of fracking on groundwater safety, the downstream consequences of industrial pollutants, and the environmental impact of oil spills. for more, we go to san francisco where we're joined by lee fang, investigative journalist at the intercept covering the intersection of money and politics. his latest piece "epa's new , water safety official is a

lobbyist with deep ties to the dakota access pipeline." welcome back to democracy now! tell us what you found. >> thank you so m much for havig me. the latest political appointee in the trump administration, as you mentioned, is dennis lee forsgren. this is an individual who has been appointed to head up the department within the epa that deals with safety drinking water intoeviewing research wawater safety. this is a potentially problematic political appointee because this person comes directly from a fossil fuel lobbying firm hbw resources that is kind of infamous for cloak and dagger tactics. they were very prominent in the fight over the keystone xl pipeline. and more recently, on the dakota access pipeline. nermeen: tell us a little bit more about hbw resources and who their clients have been. >> we have tracked hbw for a

while now, and this is a lolobbying firm ththat actually specializes in kind of deceptive tactics. i will just give you three examples of that. they operate a kind of fake consumer group, a consumer energy alliance -- this is a consumer energy alliance, purportedly an agency that represents mom and pop energy users. in fact, this is organization fully controlled by the fossil fuel lobbyists, funded by large oil and gas copies, oil refineries that goes out and kind of misrepresents itself to influence the public debate around these oil and gas issues. another example is the fight over arctic drilling will stop when shell oil was pushing to drill in a very sensitive area of the environment near alaska, there is a letter writing campaign to kind of convince regulators to give them approval. helped facilitate a

lot of these letters. one of these letters supposedly came from an onion farmer group, but we look at these letters and they were essentially copying and pasting from lingwood provided by these lobbyists. it did not seem like a truly authentic letter. they specialize in these astroturf oror fake grassroots strategieses. on the dakotota access pipeline, these same lobbyists were involved in sesetting up events and going up to standing rock and being quoted in the media. they attacked the protesters at standing rock climbing the protesters who went to demonstrate against the pipeline, they were not interested in protecting the environment. the people involved in these protests were safely y going up there to slow down the american economy.y. if you have talked in a these protesters, that is clearly not true, but that is part and parcel of the tactics used by this lobbying firm.

nermeen: i want to read a statement by david holt in october 2016 during the protests by water keepers against the dakota access pipeline. holt stated -- "the steps taken by these individuals to sabotage pipelines -- in addition to the threats, intimidation, and cyber-bullying tactics they are using -- clearly show that their agenda has nothing to do with protecting the environment and everything to do with shutting down the american economy and hurting everyday americans, families, small business, and our economic way of life." lee fang, can you respond to that and also explain who the funders are for the cea, the consumer energy alliance? >> the cea group, you know, they pretend to be an independent organization, but we have gone through tax x filings and found large oil refineries, copies like koch industries that you

grievously referenced, and phillips 66, these big industrial polluters are providing a significant portion of the financing for cea. the quote you read is kind of a they placeategy that advertisements, write letters to the editor, they hold rallies and kind of organized opposition to actual social movements and grassroots groups. the individuals that provided read, hee you just says he is a voice of the consumer. but actually, he's just anonothr person i is the same lobbying am were dennis lee forsgren is from. consumerrol the fake group. they go out and they use these kind of tactics to diminish the work of social movements. epa,earlier this week, the taking steps to rescind the waters of the united states rule, explained what the administration is trying to do and how it links in to the

hasent man that trump tapped, dennis lee forsgren? >> the rule is a major achievement by the obama administration. it extends clean water act protections -- this law originally applied only to large bodies of water like the chesapeake day. at the regulation in 2015 to extended these protections to wetlands and streams, bodies of water that feed into larger bodies like the chesapeake bay. this has been bitterly opposed by lobbyists. we see agribusiness and industrial polluters lobbying aggressively against this rule. back when there was the debt ceiling fight, ththe government shutdown fight, lobbyist attempted to attach budget writers to repeal this rule and they were unsuccessful. but now with the trump administration, they have another opportunity to repeal this regulation. that is exactly the process that began this week.

the office of water and the epa will be managing that process. the epa, under the trump administration, is a perfect example of industry capture. from the top of the administration down, we've seen political appointees directly from industry. the legal affairs office is now staffed i trump administrationn appointees from the utility industry. lobbyist is the number two appointee. just this week we saw another oil and gas lobbyist from the american petroleum institute appointed to another legal affairs office of the epa. so as the epa moves to repeal these environmental safeguards, you literalllly have well and gs lobbyists who have spent the last three or four years fighting this regulation now in charge of repealing it. indigo does forsgren have to go through public approval? >> no. that is an interesting dynamic.

he does not. he's a deputy minister eight or. the epa has been pushing through a lot of deputy roles they do not require -- amy: we believe it there but interview about other issues and post it at democracynow.org. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]]