10/13/17 10/13/17 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> and this morning, the president's tweeting he wants to pull fema and the military out of puerto rico will step how long do we have to stay in puerto rico, mr. president? until every puerto rican's name is taken up the vietnam a moral wall were erased from the records of the korean war, afghanistan, iraq, as long as it takes. they gave their lives and died.

amy: a as president trump threatenens to withdraraw fedel rerelief workersrs from puerto , home to 3.5 million u.s. citizens, residents of the island and their supporters responond with outrarage and disbelief. san juan mayor carmen yulin cruz called trump the "hater-in-chief." we'll get response from congressman luis gutierrez on puerto rico as well as from smooth to stop paying billions of dollars in federal subsidies doubt cover for people's health care -- to help cover poor people's health care. in the renownened psychiatrist robert jay lifton on president trump. quite trump is on record for demanding something like 10 times the number of nuclear weapons and that is what i call extreme nuclear resume, a kind a race of the weapons to do everything they can -- still using nuclear weapons can do is destroy countries, cities,

destroy human beings. amy: robert jay lifton on what he calls the apocalyptic twins, nuclear and climate threats. the ultimate absurdity, the ultimate absurdity that if we do nothing but what we're doing now, and it is what i mean by malignant normality, going on using fossil f fuels, we will do ourselves in as a civilization, pretty much by the end of the century. nothing could be more absurd than that. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. president trump has threatened to withdrawal fema from puerto rico and abandon the federal recovery effort there, as half the island still hasas no drinkg water and more than 80% lacks electricity three weeks after hurricane maria. fema officials have alsoso acknowledg t theres s a massive shortage o of food being providd on the island, while health

officials have warned hospitals are in dire conditions. on thursday, trump attempted to blame puerto rico for the humanitarian catastrophe, tweeting "all infrastructure was disaster before hurricanes." trump then tweeted -- "we cannot keep fema, the military & the first responders, who have been amazing in p.r. forever!" trump's threat sparked immediate backlash, both across the continental united states and on puerto rico. san juan's mayor carmen yulin cruz said trump was threatening to "condemn us to a slow death of non-drinkable water, lack of food, lack of medicine." she also appealed to thehe unitd nations, unicef, and the world to "stand with the people of puerto rico and stop the genocide that will result from the lack of appropriate action of a president that just does not get it because he has been incapable of looking in our eyes and seeing the pride that burns fiercely in our hearts and souls." wewe'll have more on the crisisn

puerto rico with compass minerals gutierrez -- thomas muller luis gutierrez after headlines. in more climate-related news, the death toll from california's drought-fueled wildfires has surged to 31 as hundreds more remain missing. on thursday, sonoma county authorities said they identififd at least 10 of thehe victims, ad that thehe majority were in ther 70's and 8080's. the bodies were soso charred, te only way to identify some of them was by the serial numbers them was by the e serial numbers on artificial l joints or other medical devices. the fires have now burnt nearly 200,000 acres, roughly the size of new york city. in vietnam, at least 50 people have been killed in floods and landslides after a tropical storm hit the northern and central parts of the country. tens of thousands of people have been forced to evacuate, as the flooding submerged more than 30,000 homes. it has killed up to 40,000 animals. one resident of the hard-hit northwest province of hoa binh said --

"it's impossible to fight against this water, it's the strongest in years." the climate change chaos comes as an investigation by the guardian and global witness says more than 150 environmental activists and land defenders have been murdered this year alone, meaning 2017 is slated to be the deadliest year on record. billy kyte of global witness said -- "investors too have blood on their hands. they should not invest in projects linked to abuses and must speak out when defenders are threatened." a new report by the group oil change international says the world's largest international development banks invested more than $5 billion in coal, oil and gas projects last year alone. environmental activists are calling for these banks to divest from fossil fuel extraction. president trump has moved to dismantle the affordable care act after republican lawmakers repeatedly failed to repeal and replace the president obama's signature healththcare law. in a late night announcement,

the white house said it will stop paying billions of dollars in federal subsidies to insurance companies to help cover low-income people's healthcare plans. experts say ending the subsidies will dramatically increase insurance premiums and could unravel the healthcare market. this came hours after trump signed an executive order that would allow insurance companies to sell cheaper policies with few protections and benefits, a move that could also destabilize the current healthcare market. we'll have more on healthcare later in the broadcast. president trump is slated to announce today the u.s. will decertify the landmark 2015 iran nuclear deal, although it appears trump has now backed away from his plans to withdraw the u.s. from the deal entirely. instead, the white house is expected to instruct congress to leave the agreement intact for now. trump has come under massive domestic and i international pressure not to unravel the landmamark agreement.

on thursday, the trump administration announced it is on thursday, the trump administration announced it is withdrawing from unesco -- that's the united nations educational, scientific and cultural organization -- because . this is u.s.s. charge d'affais at unesco, chris hegadorn. >> the second issue, and for sleep this has become politicizized undermining the wk of unesco across its mandate. it has become a venueue for anti-israeael bias.s. unfortunately, we are taking this decision to withdraw from unesco at this time. then he fell in response, the general director of unesco said "at the time when conflicts continue to tear up our societies across the world, it is deeply regrettable for the united states to withdraw from the united nations agency emoting education for peace protecting culture under attack. that is the director general. hours after the u.s. with true, israel been also pulllled out of unesco. both the london and new york police departments have launched investigations into disgraced

movie producer harvey weinstein, who was one of the most powerful men in hollywood until a slew of women came forward in recent days to accuse him of sexual harassment, assault, and rape. londndon police are investigatig allegations of sexual assault dating back to the 1980's. in new york am a 2015 new york police sting operation already recorded weinstein admitting to groping filipina-italian model ambra battilana gutierrez, but the district attorney, cyrus vance, refused to press charges. one of weinstein's lawyers at donated $10,000 to vance's election campaign only days after vance decided not to prosecute the case.. in news from guantanamo, hunger striking prisoners say u.s. military officials have stopped force-feeding them in a move they and their lawyers say threatens to kill them. in an op-ed for the guardian, hunger striking guantanamo bay prisoner khalid qassim writes --

"they have decided to leave us to waste away and die instead. now as each night comes, i wonder if i will wake up in the morning. when will my organs fail? when will my heart stop? i am slowly slipping away and no one notices." qassim has been imprisoned for 15 years without being charged with a crime, and writes that a hunger strike was "the only peaceful way i thought i could protest." a louisisiana sheriff hahas spad outrage after he lamented the scheduled release of non-violent prisoners, using language that evoked slavery and the u.s.'s long history of imprisoning african americans in order to serve as free or cheap labor. this is caddo parish sheriff steve e prator. wantt stay prprisoners. they are i in a nececessary evio keep the doors openen that we kp if you or keep sosome out there. and d that is t the ones t thatu

can wo.. at is the one sesecond pick upup trtrash, the e work-release programs. and guess what? those are ththe oneses that they are releasing. in addition to the bad ones -- i call these bad -- - in addition thehem, they are e releasing se good onenes that we use everyryy toto wash cars, to change e thel anand our cars, to cook inin the kitchen, to do all that where we save money. well, they're going to let them out. amy: in portland, oregon, six people were arrested wednesday after they locked themselves to each other outside the portland ice center to blockade a bus carrying detained immigrants to a for-profit immigrant prison in tacoma, washington. meanwhile, in washington state, two protesters have been convicted of disorderly conduct after they blockaded a highway to protest a rally by then-candidate donald trump in lynden, washington, in may 2016. activists josefina mora and thomas kaplan have been sentenced to 10 days of labor on

a jail's work crew after a judge threw out their necessity defense, in which they were arguing the civil disobedience was necessary to prevent the spread of fascism and hate groups, both locally and nationwide. this is thomas kaplan and josefina mora at the protest back in may 2016. >> so right now i have my arms and two tubes. right, she is chained to a ladder and on mymy left is thomas. >> for white supremacy has been rampant. we're particularly trying attention here because it is in the center of ku klux klan rallies and organizing for at leasast 100 years. and right now it is a hotbed for racism against farmworkers. we're notot going allow donald trump to come to our community and spread hate and try to encourage the detention or terrorism toward people of color and undocumented persons.. amy: and those are some of the

headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war a and pepeace report. i'm amy goodman. president trump threatened thursday to withdraw federal relief workers from puerto rico as his administration faces withering criticism of its response to the humanitarian crisis on the island, whwhich is home to 3.5 million u.s. citizens. more than a month after hurricane irma hit puerto rico, and three weeks after hurricane maria, more than 80% of the island remains without power and water is in short supply. in a series of tweets thursday morning, trump seemed to hold puerto rico responsible for its own plight, writing -- "puerto rico survived the hurricanes, now a financial crisis looms largely of their own making says sharyl attkisson." trump was quoting a reporter with sinclair broadcasting. he went on to write -- "a total lack of accountability say the governor. electric and all infrastructure was disaster before hurricanes. congress to decide how much to spend. we cannot keep fema, the military & the first responders, who have been amazing in p.r. forever!"

this comes after trump's visit to puerto rico last week, when he complained that its recovery had "thrown our budget a little out of whack." on the island, puerto ricans responded with disbelief to trump's latest comments. >> oh, god. this guide trurump is sisick. but we are americs. we are part of the n nation. how is the night when n a help when we needed? i think it is that on his word. in agreement not with the guys he uses. i've always considered since i was born that we are part of the united states. many of our relatives has sacrificed their lives for the united states. the words he uses, i don't consider to be anything good. amy: meanwhile, san juan mayor carmen yulin cruz took to twitter to call trump "hate- in-chief" and said in a statement trump was threatening to "condemn us to a slow death of non-drinkable water, lack of food, lack of medicine." the mayor also appealed to the united nations, unicef and the world to "stand with the people

of puerto rico and stop the genocide that will result from the lack of appropriate action of a president that just does not get it because he has been incapable of looking in our eyes and seeing the pride that burns fiercely in our hearts and souls." federal officials admit there is a massive shortage of meals in puerto rico, with 2 million people needing food, b but fema serving just 200,000 meals a day. for more, we go to chicago where we're joined by congressman luis gutierrez, democrat of i illino. welcome back to democracy now! your response to this series of tweets that the president of the united states wrote yesterday? >> utterly disgraceful. on the islandng of puerto rico. dying because there are infectious bacteria now attacking people. i don't know how much worse it is going to get, but i fear,

amy, it is just going to get a lot worse. i do not see the resources arriving on the island. and i think the health care epidemic that is going t to confront the peoplple of puerto rico is going to be without president on the island of puerto rico and maybe anywhere in the united states of america. we are going to stay there until we get the job done, until things are normalized, until things are regularized on the island and they can stand on own two feet. and i am so proud of the people of puerto rico. although they cut those scenes out when the president tweets, those videos of the puerto ricans on the roads, in their homes, in their towns cleaning up, helping one another, showing each other love and compassion and creating a community with very littltle. the food is in getting to a lot

of places. the health care isn't getting -- for the life of me, i cannot understand why the richest, most powerful nation in the world with the most powerful military in the world isn't evacuate in the elderly. those that are in bed. those that are on dialysis. those that are receiving treatment for r cancer. you can go down the list. those thatat are so vulnerable. why are we putting them in a safe place? in new york? in chicago? in lororain, ohio? in chicago, we have our homes ready to receive our compatriots and take care of them. we have hospitals. we have schools. why aren't they traransferring those who wish to leave the island, especially making a priority of those that are sick? i just do not understand it. that will continueue. the presesident l likes to say,, 16 certified. well, we're now over 45 and

everyone knows that is not the number. the undercount of those that are dying is huge. they're not counting those that are dying as a result of the lack of medical care, medical attention, , of food and of wat. there are parts of puerto rico that three weeeeks after the hurricane, they have not put in bridges, temporary so that people can escape from where they are trapped. that is three weeks. the most powerful military the world, and we're not putting people in say places. amy: can you respond what president trump said in his tweet when he said, "we cannot keep fema, the military, and first responders who have been amazing under the most difficult ?ircumstances in p.r. forever!" compared to what the u.s. has done for taxes, for florida, katrina, going back louisiana there. think about it. by this time we had 60,000 people in new orleans.

we had hundreds of airplanes and buses to getks and people out of harm's way. and we stayed there for years because we had to rebuild. and we are still, and parts of new jersey, rebuilding years later. we stayed till the job gets done. i want to repeat for the viewers, there is a wall with ofr 50,000 names etched those that lost their lives during the vietnam conflict. on that wall are hunundreds of names of puerto ricans. -- it seems to me just so don't know what the word is to describe it. here is a president of the united states saying i've got bone spur so i can't serve in the military, and he wants to walk away from those who have

given, in many cases, the greatest sacrifice you can for country. the greatest tax. the tax of your blood, your limbs, your life. he wants to walk away. i understand the outrage. on the other hand, let's remember, puerto rico is a colony of the united states and they want to stay there forever. they want to own it. they want to make puerto rico not part of the united states, but owned by the united states. an example.ou yesterday was a big thing. the headlines were "relief going to puerto rico." yeah, there was relief going to puerto rico. a $5 million loan. why a loan? why are we giving them a grip so they can pay their bills and keep the government open? what we do is we give them a loan. that is going to be additive the $74 billion, $5 billion more. how does that help? in that bill yesterday, what did we do? we

debtd $16 billion worth of to the national flood insurance. why can't we release some of the debt from the people of puerto rico? debt that was incurred because we imposed on the island of puerto rico the u.s. merchant marines under the jones act, the most expensive shipping. since add up the costs 1920 of the imposition of the jones act making of use of only american-built ships with boatcan people running the , you add all of that up, there is a $72 billion. so don't tell me about what is owed. the destruction of agriculture, the destruction of our land, some of her most beautiful -- what is that all worth, mr. president? he is a was putting everything in the kind of accounting machine. you leave puerto rico -- that is

just another reason we should impeach as president of the united states. in a cup finally, president trump, in a late-night move, announcement, the white house stopnced that it will paying billions of dollars in federal subsidies to insurance companies to subsidize low income people's health care plans. can you respond to this move? poor that finally had access to health care, the working poor that had access to health care, mothers. most mothers, single mothers with seven, the elderly. those that we finally were able to bring inside the realm of safety of health care. that is who he wants to take away health care from. and then he was to allow these minimalist insurance policies so employers can give that to their employees, so that people will once again -- i hate to put it,

but it is true that people don't have appropriate health care will again die in this, the richest most powerful nation in the world. the president of the united states wants to do this. here's what they're going to do the money, amy. it is no coincidence are next move is to give tax breaks to the wealthiest in this nation. and they need to balance their budget in order to give that tax break to the wealthiest by taking it from the poorest in the nation. i think it is just so shameful. amy: congressman luis gutierrez, thank you for being with us democrat of illinois. ,cochair of the immigration task force of the congressional hispanic caucus. when we come back from the world renowned psychiatrist dr. robert jay lifton on president trump and the apocalyptic twins of nuclear warar and climate chang. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we spend the rest of the hour discussing what our next guest calls the "apocacalyptic twins: nuclear and climate threats."

this week, nbc news reported president trump called for a nearly tenfold increase in the united states' nuclear weapons arsenal during meeting with high ranking military leaders. it was after this that secretary of state rex tillerson reportedly called trump a momor. on wednesday, trump lashed out at nbc on twitter and suggested nbc's broadcast license should be revoked as punishment for its rereporting. today, trump is slated to announce the u.s. will decertify the landmark 2015 iran nuclear deal, although it appears trump has now backed away from his plans to withdraw the u.s. from the deal entirely. instead, the white house is expected to instruct congress to leave the agreement intact for now after he come under massive domestic and international pressure not to unravel the landmark agreement. in the last week, trump has also repeated threats of war against north korea, tweeting -- "presidents and their administrations have been talking to north korea for 25 years, agreements made and massive amounts of money paid

hasn't worked, agreements violated before the ink was dry, making fools of u.s. negotiators.s. sorry, but only one thing will work!" in brief comments to reporters saturday, trump was asked to clarify that remark, as well as a cryptic comment he made last week during a meeting with top generals in which he warned about the calm before the storm. >> c can you clarify your combo for the stotorm comment? pres. trump: nothing to clarify. >> [indiscernible] pres. trump: you will figure that out pretty soon. " "you will figure that up pretty soon" he said. meanwhile, the united states is struggling to recover from a series of hurricanes -- and now wildfires ---- that climate scientists have linked to climate change. the 10th hurricane this year, ophelia, has just been named. there have not been 10 huhurricanes in one season s sie 1893. well, our next guest wonders if the storms have contributed to what he e calls a shift in ourur

awareness of climate truths. on thursday, democracy now!'s nermeen shaikh and i spoke with robert jay lifton, a leading american psychiatrist and author of more than 20 books about the effects of nuclear war, terrorism, and genocide. his new book is titled "the climate swerve: reflections on mind, hope, and survival." lifton is also a distinguished professor emeritus of psychiatry and psychology at the city university of new york. i began by asking him to talk about what is happening right between the u.s. and north korea and iran. and president trump's closestt aides expressing c concern thate -- trump is unraveling. >> i also belong to a group called the duty to warn, which is a group of psychiatrists and

psychologists who feel wewe have the right and the obligation to ,peak o out about trump's psyche when it endangers the country and the world. you mention the potential of the pact with iran. there is the potential of unraveling of donald trump, which seems to be occurring. it is hard to read him because his behavior, as i understand it, is completely solipsistic. he sees the world through his own sense of self, what he needs, and what he feels. and he could not be more erratic were scattered or dangerous. so the exchange with north korea has to be terrifying to all of us. it is not something that can be controlled. leaders who are bent on hyperbole and intense threat to the other and have

their own motivations, each of which is hard for us to read. but we can read the danger that they represent, particularly since we have learned recently that trump is on record for demanding something like 10 times the number of nuclear weapons. and that is what i call extreme , toear is him -- nuclearism do everything they can. deal with the nuclear weapons can do is destroy countries, cities, destroy human beings. but since they came into being, there has been an impulse to embrace them and see them as saviors to prevent war, keep the world going, maintain authority on the part of the nuclear weapons-possessing nations. so trump is end of that extreme

nuclearism. at the same time, as you mention with the other apocalyptic twin, the terrible and very real , globalf climate change warming. he and his followers are blocking every reasonable effect that was put forward in paris in 2015, in which the world -- through which the world seeks to confront what may be the gravest danger it has ever faced. that is where we are. nermeen: to go back to what you said initially, the group that you are a part of, the psychiatric group, you are a contributor to a book called "the dangerous case of donald trump." what are some of the key concerer about trurump that you and your colleagues raise? >> i wrote a letter together with to determine to "the new york times" in which we raised two issues. one was his relation to reality,

which is, i would say, solipsistic and untenable and very dangerous to everyone. amy: what do you mean solipsistic? >> from within the self. in other words, he only sees the world from within his sense of self. he can't have empathy for others. he can't really think into the future the consequences of his actions because he is totally preoccupied with the immediate event and how he can deal with it or manipulate it as emerging through the perception on the part of his sense of self. that is very extreme. people who are psychotic behavior that way. yet for the most part, trump is not psychotic. makes a reallyn dangerous. so that relationsnship to r reay

is one t thing. and ththe other thingng that juh hermann and i wrwrote about was his difficulty with crises and his extreme behavior and attack --e instead of any kind of in a kind of balance, which a president needs to do with the crisis. so those were two. in this regard, i write about what we call malignant normality. so he is the president, a president takes actions. there's a tendency to normalize them because after all, he is the president. he is in charge. when what is called normality is completely malignant and harmful. and d i came to that idea who wk on nazi doctorsrs they were expected to reverse healing and killing and really take the lead in killing and i shall its. -- auschwitz.

i am saying this is a model of development normality and we now face it with trump and his administration. amy: i want to ask you about your group duty to warn. vanity fair has a piece were steve bannon, the disgraced white house aide, said he told president trump that his concern should be the 25th amendment. not being impeached. but the cabinet voting him out. he says something like trump has a 30% chance of making it through his term. you are a psychiatrist. can you talk further about what it would take if it wasn't an impeachable crime for -- to remove president trump, what you believe he is a danger right now? howt is unclear whether or

trump will be rememoved from or resign from the presidency before the completion of his term. one dozen know that. -- one doesn't know that. it will probably be, in my judgment, be a political rather than a psychological act. one could take the 20 for the mimic and his cabinet, his vice president could attest to his unfitness. very likely.em rather what is happening now is there's a dialogue between this psychological psychiatric group and congress people in which they, we come are bringing information about trump's unfitness, which becomes part of the political dialogue. amy: are you talking to congressmembers? >> yes. people from this group are talking to congress people.

it will probably be a political decision that removes trump. and that means an election process and the issue of whether you get a democratic house or senate and other political issues that will become very important. but this is now part of the dialogue. everybody knew that trump was bizarre, strange, was unreliable, unfit to be president. it has been known by the hypocritical republicans for a very long time. but putting it forward by psychologists and psychiatrists gives it a certain greater authority and becomes part of that dialogue and recognition. that is the way i see it, rather than a clear-cut removal through the 2 25th amendment. though one doesn't know because there is more more evidence about trump's campaign's collusion in russia and potentially about structure and of justice.

and all of these could play a part. he could attempt to fire robert mueller as he is brenda do, and that can bring about a constitutional crisis. so we don't know. we can't forget what process will occur. the psychological now is in dialogue with the political. amy: i want to read to you the "new york times" editorial on thursday. one finger on the button is too few. debatewrite -- "the broad over president trump's fitness for the the vocal and amending office he holds has recently been reframed in a more pointed and urgent way. does he understand and can you responsibly manage the most destructive nuclear arsenal on earth? the question arises for several reasons. you threatened to totally destroy north korea. he has reportedly pressed for a massive buildup in american nuclear arsenal which already contains too many, 4000

warheads. and soon will decide whether to sustain or set a course to possibly unravel the immensely important iran nuclear deal." to cite corker who said he is leading to world war iii and rex tillerson who reportedly called him a more on --moron. , "mr.imes" goes on to say trump's policy pronouncements jenna campaign betrayed either profound ignorance or dangerous nonchalance. at one point you wonder why america had nuclear weapons if it did not use them. at another he suggested japan and south korea should develop their own nuclear weapons. but nothing he has been quite as unsettling as is his recent tweet storms about north korea, fire and fury, the calm before the storm." so they are saying, they are calling for a minute hoped and still hope, trans aggressive posture is mostly for attention, keep adversaries offguard. but there is no underlying strategy to his loose talk.

and whatever he means by, commerce has been sufficiently alarmed to consider legislation that would bar the president from launching a first nuclear strike without a declaration of war by congress. it would take away the president's ability to defend the country. they say that is a sound idea and can be made stronger with the requirements that the secretaries of defense and they also approve any such decision. as things stand now, the atomic 1946, passed when there was more concerned about trigger-happy generals than elected civilian leaders, gives the president sold control. he could unleash the apocalyptic force of the american new bear arsenal by his word alone and within minutes. >> in a restriction on the president, any president, but especially trump, on his capacity to initiate a nuclear war, in a restriction on that is profoundly desirable. it is a strange world, to say

the least, when the generals are there to restrain the civilian. the generals come on the whole, are known for the military restraint. there are exceptions. with the vietnam war, as you know, it was initiated by civilians, the best and the brightest, as it was called. the military was at first a little reluctant, then entered it and bececame corrupted by it. and created, what i came to call, atrocity producing situations. that could happen here, too, with the generals who are ostensibly restrainers, allowing him, being unable to prevent him from ininitiating some f form or . being themselves drawn in and in corrupted by it. that is a really dangerous sequence. anything that holds that back or in check is desirable. nermeen: the nobel peace prize was awarded to ican -- to ican.

do you see that a significant? >> i do see that as very significant. there is a mindset that rejects nuclear resume -- nuclear ism. oflearism is the embrace weapons to do all of the things they can't do and to utilize them instead of what should be utilized in the way of peacemaking. so giving the nobel peace prize to a group that to outlaw all nuclear weapons, recognizes that mindset, the critical mindset toward nuclear weapons. you know, i was part of the anti-nuclear movement -- still am -- a particularly the doctor's role in anti-nuclear work. i think we have reason to believe that the whole

anti-nuclear movement from all directions was a significant factor in preventing the use of nuclear weapapons since nagasaki and 1945. it doesn't mean that we are on fine ground with nuclear weapons. it is still extremely dangerous, as we're discussing. but the prevention of their use was certainly influenced by anti-nuclear movements and a rejection of nuclearism. amy: your work with bringing out the voices of the hiroshima, nagasaki victims. i want to turn to one of those victims. only interviewed ican after they won the nobel peace prize, they talked about the voices of the people being so critical. to a survivoroke of the u.s. bombmbing of hirosha august 6, 1945, now a an anti-nuclear activist who workss

as a social worker in toronto, canada, serving japanese-speaking immigrants. she described that day come august 6, 1945. 13-year-old student at the girls school. ,nd i was mobilized by the army together with a group of about 30 schoolmates. act as trained to assistants. that very day, being monday, we were's host -- we were supposed to start work. at 8:00, with h the morning assembmbly. they gave us a have talk. we saiaid, we will do our best r the emperor's said. then i saw the blue flash in the

windows. thes on the second floor of building, which was one point eight kilometers away from ground zero. flash, i had ae sensation of floating in the air. all of the buildings were flattened by the blast and falling. obviously, the building i was in was falling and my body was falling together with it. that is s the end of my recollection. amy: that was a survivor of the u.s. bombing of hiroshima. "the climate swerve: reflections on mind, hope, and survival." you talk about apocalyptic twins: nuclear and climate threats." voice.out this most have died out at this point. have a special form

of witness and many of them, including particularly hiroshima survivors, as you know, so-called have traveled around the world and t told their stories. and that does us a service and does them a service as well because it gives meaning to an oferwise intolererable kind experience. they sense that they know something that the rather -- rest of us don't know. of and what t they know, what they have learned is the capacity of ouour technolology, our weaponro destroy our entire species and muchch of thee planet. theyey know that in a a visceral way, in a way that we dodon't know. amy: dr. r rert jay lilifton isa leading american psychiatrist and author of more than 20 books. his latest, "the climate swerve: reflections on mind, hope, and survival."

when we comeme back, i a ask him about climate change, which he has called the apocalyptic twin of nuclear war. stayay with us. ♪ [music break] amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we continue our conversation with dr. robert jay lifton, a leading american psychiatrist and author of more than 20 books . on thursday, democracy now!'s nermeen shaikh and i spoke with about his new book "the climate swerve: reflections on mind, hope, and survival."

in the midst of the massive hurricanes and the wildfires in california, i asked him about climate change, what he has called the apocalyptic twin of nuclear war. >> climate change is the apocalyptic twin. we saw in those images of the hurricanes just in the last couple of months, and still a , theof apocalyptic damage destruction of cities, of islands, of most of puerto rico -- a large area, and doubts about the capacity to recover and to really prevent the most long-standing damage to these places. there has to be a kind of perspective survivors, somebody who imagines is happening. but now we have visual evidence in these hurricanes, not caused

by, change, but rendered much more extreme according to much scientific evidence. we have evidence which the rest of us can take in as perspective survivor's of furth c climate dadamage that t threatens s oure civilization. i call thehem apopocalyptic t ts becacause ly t the two threats, these two developments can destroy the human species. i no longer speak so much of climate change denial, but rather climate change rejection. it is impossible not to come in at least one part of one's mind, recognize that there is something called global warming and that it is very dangerous to us and that we are contributing to it. it doesn't mean that one accepts it. -- the humans it

mind can be very contradictory. one can both recognize it and reject it. reject it because it is contrary to one's antigovernment stance. cooperateovernance to to do anything about it. because it is antithetical to one's identity and to one's worldview. and also to one's financial sponsors. all of that feeding climate rejection. but even as they try to make adaptation -- how you're going to restore these coastal areas -- the issue of climate change arises more readily. so although we are not satisfied with the amount of emphasis on global warming, it is making its way into what i call a species awareness or a climatee swerve. one wishes it would happen

faster, but it is happening. nermeen: it is interesting you say y that t this climate swervr changing climate mindset is happening at the same moment the trump administration is perhaps the most vocal in renouncing climate science or climate rejection, as you call it. i want to go back to president trump last month when he traveled to mandate, north dakotata, and c celebrated hiss decicision t to pull out of the landmark 2015 climate deal while speaking outside an oil refinery. pres. trump: in order to protect american industry and workers, we withdrew the united states frfr the job killing paris climate accord. job killer. people have no idea. many people have no idea how bad that was. and right here in north dakota, the dakota access type line is finally open for business -- pipeline is finally open for business. i also did keystone.

you know about keystone. another one.e. a big onone. big.g. first couple of days and off is, those two. 48,000 jobs. , tremendous thing. i think environmentally better. i really believe that. environment will he better. amy: that was president trump spspeaking on september 6 in noh dakota. it was just about a year after the dakota access pipeline onrds unleashed dogs protesters, native american protesters, water protectors who were trying to protect the planet and not have that dapl pipeline built. it was after -- just after hurricane harvey had inundated the greater houston area and hurricane irma was just making landfall. he chose this moment to come to this controversial spot where hundreds of native americans just down the road from the oil

refinery had been jailed for their fight for water protection to announce, once again, look at what i've done, pull out of the paris accord and greenlight these pipelines. >> that story continues. it has proven very difficult for trump to pull out of the paris accord. as soon as it was announced, there was a heartening response on the part of governors and mayors all over the country saying that their states or their cities would follow the paris accord. and there was an even more intense international response, a joint statement by germany, france, and italy, that the paris accord was a reversible, and by china that they would continue their involvement in the paris accord. and then the trump administration issued a series of so-called clarifications. ll, we will go to the meetings. wewell, we d don't t exactly hao pullout, we will renegotiate.

in other words, obfuscating the whole issue, which is very trump-ian and not so surprising. the reason why it is difficult for him to pull out of the paris accord is that there is a worldwide consensus about it. it is more powerful than any person, even the most dangerous person in the world, donald trump. again, it isense, outrageous that trump would try -savingout of a world accord or at least something in the direction of that. it should really be criminal for a president to do that. but at least we can say that the climate swerve or the species awareness, the idea that we're all members of a single species indeed trouble, as i put it, all of that prevents him from , andng out absolutely

leaves the whole matter unclear. nermeen: is it your sense that are sufficient restraint on donald trump acting unilaterally on either of thesese fronts, climate or nuclear? >> you would have to have total restraints for them to be sufficient with a man like donald trump. of course there aren't sufficient restraints. and whoever definitive on generals to restrain a civilian in so many different areas -- and we don't know the outcome. i am not, in my book were in my work, promising that we have accomplished enough to prevent climate damage and real disaster from happening. it is happening already. what i'm saying is that there has been a shift in mindset that makes possible the actions, the sensible actions, necessary to curve global warming. we still haven't taken those

actions fully. , ithe beginning of my book speak of the ultimate absurdity. the ultimate absurdity that if we do nothing but what we're doing now -- it is what i mean by malignant normality, does going on using fossil fuels -- we will do ourselves in as a civilization pretty much by the end of this century. nothing could be more absurd than that. but at least we have a beginning shift inin mindset that alallows to take reasonable action. and that is what paris was all about. amy: i want to ask about the quote you begin your booklet. you quote an american poet sang "in a dark time, the eye begins to see." >> that is a beautiful line from a very great poet. i have used that throughout my career because it is, in a way, what my work is about.

dissentsudied a lot of into darkness. her motion, vietnam war, nazi doctors and others -- hiroshima, vietnam war, nazi doctors, and others. i always feel there's something to learn from what happened. it doesn't mean we are guaranteed to make good use of our history and never do it again. it does mean some kind of knowledge can come from it. and i i see myself in that way,s what i call a witnessing professional trying to use my professional knowledge to bear witness to, and in some way, reveal more about this kind of darkness. amy: can you talk more about the nazi doctors? you devote a chapter to then here. i mean, your work spans -- well,

you are 91 years old now. you have so much wisdom, both experience in all europe brought to this. -- experience and what you have brought to this. tell us what we should learn from what you have learned from these men. >> with the nazi doctors, when a german doctor would be a member of the nazi party was assigned to auschwitz, he was expected to do so-called selections and send most arriving jews to the gas chamber. that was considered normal behavior for a doctor in auschwitz. some of them had difficulty with it, but ultimately, they adapted to it. professionalsing a hired gun for a malignant version of normality.

in extremeed that ways, professionals can b be put to usese for killing rather than healing. that is what happened in nazi germany. but we also saw expressions of that, not quite as fully expressed, but with american psychologists and for a while, psychiatrist, engaging in torture. and that being an expected norm, normal behavior. anything are talking by the american psychological association incorporated with president bush. >> that's right. i'm talking about both individual psychologist and psychiatrist and then the american psychological association collaborating with the torturers. i call that a scandal within a scandal. it is a scandal that professionals are doing that, but it really shows that we have to, as professionals or as

anything, recognize what our wheres being used for and it is being put in connection .ith despite it behavior the scandal within the scandal is an association that is supposed to watch over the ethics of a profession, joints and torture or at least protects those who join in torture. but all of that was exposed by a movement from within or from within the help of reasonably good leadership on the part of the american psychiatric association who said it was wrong for any psychiatrist to be in the room during an interrogation that could spill over into torture. yes, those were examples of malignant normality, not in nazi germany, but in relation to democratic united states of america.

and with trump, of course am a malignant normality becomes the rule because he is president. and what a president does tends ,o normalize potentially bad evil, or destructive behavior. amy: dr. robert jajay lifton, leading american psychiatrist . his latest book, "the climate swerve: reflections on mind, hope, and survival." that does it for our show. wis happy anniversary withh robby democracy now! schedulepeaking and our speaking schedule -- check our website for details. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who

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