07/16/18 07/16/18 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! world. trump: i think the wants to see us get along. we are the two great nuclear powers. we have 90% of the nuclear, and that is not a goodd thing. that is a bad thing. we hopefully can do something about that becauau it is notot a positive force, it is a negative force. amy: the trump-putin summit.

first, the 90 minute one-on-one meeting trouble hold with russian president vladimir putin in helsinki were only their translators will attend the meeting. he faces pressure to confront putin over kremlin meddling in among otherction, issues. we will host a debate on u.s.-russia relations with pulitzer prize-winning journalist glenn greenwald, just back from russia visiting edward snowden, and joe cirincione, president of the plowshares fund. at first, we look at protests that greeted both trump and putin in finland. world leaders are not really paying attention to our real global challenges such as climate change, p poverty, degradation on the environment. amongssage will be, others, that this is not only about geopolitics, this is really about global challenges. amy: we will speak with finnish mp heidi hautala of the european

parliament from finland and a member of the green league come a part of the european green party. all of that in more, coming up. welcome to demococracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. president trump is meeting with russian president vladimir putin in helsinki, finland. this morning, they made a statement in which trump said he and putin would discuss china, trade, and nucuclear weapons. t think the i really worlrld wants to see us get alo. we are the two great nuclear powers. .e have 90% of the nuclear and that is not a good thing, that is a a bad thing.. and hopefully, we can do something about that because it is not a positive force, it is a negative force. amy: speaking this morning,

president trump also said he hoped her better relelations bebetween the united states and russia. pres. trump: great opportunities that,er as two countries frankly, we have n not been gegetting along for a well fofoe last number of years. i have been you're n not too lo, but it is getting close to two years. i think we will end up havavingn extranet relationship. i have been saying it and i'm sure you have heard over the years and as i campaign, saying getting along with russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. amy: today summit between trump and putin comes only days after the u.s. justice department indicted 12 russian intelligence agency members as part of special counsel robert mueller's investigation of russian interference in the 2016 election. mueller's team accuses the 12 russians of hacking the emails and computer networks of hillary clinton's campaign, the democratic national committee, and the democratic congressional campaign committee. there have been a number of

protests in helsinki process in both trump and putin, including 300 billboards lining the route from the airport to the site of the summit that criticized trump and putin's crackdown on the press. one poster at the airport read, "mr. president, welcome to the land of free press," while another r read "trump calls meda the enemy of the people." on sunday, thousands took to the streets of helsinki to protest against trump and putin's visit and to demand human rights, free speech, and pro-refugee policies. president trump also faced protest during his visit to scotland this weekend, where a paraglider flew over trump's turnberry golf course holding a sign that read "trump well below par," while protesters rallied outside his private golf resort.

>> he is a racist and misogynist. a catalog of insensibility that he brirings to the esteemed offe of t president o of the united states. just go back to america. amy: a quarter million people poured into the streetets across britain onon friday to protestst trump's first visit to the uk as president. in pakistan, funerals are being held for the victims of friday's massive bombing at an election campaign gathering in the southwestern province of baluchistan. al jazeera reports up to 149 people were killed and nearly 200 more were wounded, making it the third deadliest attack in pakistan's history. the bombing targeted an election rally of the balochistan awami party ahead of the july 25 national elections. isis has claimed responsibility for the attack. among those killed was a baluchistan provincial assembly

candidate, siraj raisani. this is the slain candidate's brother haji lashkari. havavee kinds of incidents been hapappening in our r counts histstory. these incidents are condemned verbally, but no solid measures are taken to prevent them. on friday night, hours after the deadly bombing, former prime minister nawaz sharif and his daughter maryam were arrested at the lahore airport as they returned to pakistan from london in efforts to bolster sharif's political party, the pakistan muslim league-nawaz ahead of the elections. their arrest came after sharif and his daughter were convicted in absentia last week in a corruption case that sharif's supporters say was manufactured by the pakistani military and his political opponents. in gaza, thousands of people

attended the funerals of two palestinian teenagers killed by israeli airstrikes during saturday israel's heaviest bombing assault on gaza since the 2014 war. the two boys, 15-year-old amir al-nimri and 16-year-old luay kaheel, were hit by israeli airstrikes while they were playing on a roof. 30 more palestinians were wounded in the barrage of airstrikes, which israel claimed was in retaliation for rockets fired from gaza toward israel. four israelis were wounded. this is maysoun al-namara, the mother of 15-year-old amir, who was killed by the israeli bobombing. to o play and eat with his friend. he did not havave a rocket or a bomb. he told me, i will go out for lunch with my friend. they were close friends from school. they hang out after school and they were killed together.

amy: the israeli bombing saturday comes after israeli soldiers have killed at least 136 palestinians and wounded over 14,000 more since the palestinians nonviolent great march of return protests began on march 30. the trump administration is seeking to hold direct talks with the taliban aimed at ending the ongoing 17-year u.s. war in afghanistan. the potential diplomatic effort comes as the taliban has carried out a string of deadadly attacks against t the u.s.-backeked afgn security forces, even after the trump administration deployed thousands more u.s. troops to afafanistan. last month, the taliban and afghan security forces organized a a historic, threree-day ceasa, while grassroots peace activists participated in 435-mile peace march. in haiti, prime minister jack guy lafontant has resigned amid a wave of anti-austerity protests sparked by the government's plan to raise fuel prices at the behest of the international monetary fund. this is lawmaker abel descoline, responding to the prime minister's resignation.

first step in the peaceful revolution, political revolution, to bring some element before justice for trivializing the laws and constitution which hinder the country. amy: back in the united states, san diego judge dana sabraw has blasted the trump administration's health and human services department after a senior official with the department claimed swiftly reuniting children separated from theheir parents at the borr by immigration officials could place the kids in danger. in response, judge sabraw accused hhs of manufacturing the risk to the children in order to "provide cover to defendants for their own conduct in the practice of family separation, and the lack of foresight and infrastructure necessary to remedy the harms caused by that practice." judge sabraw has ordered the trump administration must reunite the nearly 3000 separated children with their parents by july 26. in chicago, protests saturday

erupted after police officers shot and killed a 37-year-old african american on the south side of chicago. harith augustus was a well-known barber and the father of a five year old daughter. an edited clip of body camera video released on sunday shows at least four officers approaching augustus, who is wearing a holster containing a pistol. records show augustus had a legal permit to carry a firearm. in the video, augustus then tries to run away from the officers when an officer opens fire, shooting him repeatedly. the police claim he was reaching for his gun at the time of the shooting. on saturday night, hundreds of chicago residents took to the streets to protest his killing. video of the protests shows police attacking protesters with batons. at least four people were arrested. and an atlanta suburb, two police officers have been placed on administrative leave after body camera video showed them joking about using a coin flip

app to decide whether to arrest a motorist on her way to work. after the virtual coin flip, the roswell police officers courtney brown and kristee wilson arrested the driver sarah webb, , and accused her of driving over 80 miles an hour on a road with a speed limit of 45 miles an hour. the arresting officers did not have a radar gun and admitted they estimated her driving speed. webb spent the day in jail until her charges were dropped. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we begin today's show in helsinki w where president trump is holding a summit with russian president vladimir putin. only their translators are attending the meeting. putitin kept trump waiting for e summit by landing in finland about an hour late. trump faces pressure from to -- pressure to confront putin

over kremlin meddling in the 2016 election after a grand jury on friday indicted 12 russian intelligence officers for their alleged role in hacking email accounts controlled by the democratic national committee and hillary clinton's campaign. we will talk more about the u.s. relations with russia later in the broadcast when we host a debate between glenn greenwald as well as our guest who is head of the plowshares fund joe cirincione. but first, we look at the greeted trumphave and putin in finland. as the leaders drove from the airport to their meetings they were met by 300 billboards in english and russian that were posted by the country's leading newspaper helsingin sanomat and drew attention to their strained relations with the media. a poster at the airport read "mr. president, welcome to the land of free press" and others used headlines from the newspaper, like "trump calls media the enemy of the people,

"putin shuts down russia's largest news agency." this morning greenpeace activists unfolded two large banners from the belltower in helsinki that called on the presidents to "warm our hearts, not our planet." on sunday, t the russian p prott group pussy y riot ranntnto the field of play in t the world cup final game, , hosted by rurussi. they later r released demamandst includ "free political prisoners," "do not t put people in jail for r social mediaia 'likekes,'" anand "allow pololil competition in russi"" mewhile, ihelsinkin sundaythousandtook to the rights, demand human equality, and a focus on the climate. today protests continue as the meeting between trump and putin gets underway at the presidential palace in helsinki. for more, we go to helsinki, where heidi hautala joins us

. she spoke of the major protest on sunday. she is a member of the green league, part of the european green party. welcome to democracy now! you are right next to the palace where trump and putin are meeting. can you talk about what your message for trump and putin are as this summit gets under way? thank you very much. good morning. i would be in new york city at the moment, but i'm not because normally i have to stay in my home city when trump and putin are here. otherwise, i would''ve been to the u.n. high-level policy form on sustainable development. what is at stake here? we organize the event helsinki calling yesterday in order to say that now is time to defend democracy and human rights, and the two leaders, both in their own perverse ways, are a threat

to democracy and human rights. so this is what is at stake here. amy: so you are criticizing both putin and trump. can you talk about more ascifically what is at stake the statement was made by both trump and putin as they go into this private meeting, just the two of them with their translators, before bringing in some of their aides, presesident trump said that he -- that russia and the united states have 90% of nuclear weapons, that is a bad thing, not a good thing, but communicating with thing, aalso not a bad good thing. rather, just to get this straight, he said having 90% of the nuclear weapons between russia and u.s. is a bad thing. and then he said the opposite for their meeting. obviously, the whole theory

that the two presidents would start talking about nuclear disarmament because the world is probably in a more dangerous situation concerning nuclear weapons as ever before, but now to answer your question about what is at stake, more specifically with both presidents, it started with vladimir putin, who is, of for 18 yearseader of neighboring russia. he is basically eroded the last hopes of democracy and respect the rule of law and human rights in the country. we know very well that in russia today, there are 158 political prisoners. we have been calling for the release of them yesterday in our event on human rights. we obviously are very worried that in russia, there is no space for opposition, no freedom of speech, and that is why the campaign that you mention are the leading helsinki settlement

is wonderful. it really deserves applause because they are reminded of the wrongdoings of mr. putin against freedom of press and freedom of speech, but also of mr. trump, who almost every time when he meets the press, he likes to call some of them dishonest, like in britain during his visit, or he calls them enemy of the people. so we need to be very careful because these kinds of statements are real danger for freedom of expression. danger for free speech. amy: in an interview with cbs at his golf course in scotland on sunday, trump was asked who he considers to be a foe. to the surprise of many, his number one foe with the european union. pres. trump: well, i think we have a lot of foes. i think the european union is a

foe, with a due to us in trade. you would not think of the european union, but they are a foe. russia is a foe in certain respects. china is a foe economically. amy: heidi hautala, you are the vice president of the european parliamement. can you respond? >> yes, absolutely. i think it is really from a very outdated worldview that you call allies foes and enemies. trade andis is about continues to rupee the e.u., in his view, is very bad for the united statates and its economy. although, i also think this is very much exaggerated and it is not true. but of course, it is very worrying that the european union has been the closest ally of the united states for decades. the united states has been

unequivocally supported. now we have a president who actually likes the european union to be disintegrated, which we saw last during his visit to because when he criticized and advised prime minister may to be because of this conflict concerning brexit. itn if we look at mr. putin, is the samame. he also o kes to seeee a weak eueuropean uninion. it is very well-known that russia is supporting right-wing -- extreme right-wing parties in order to put in question european integration through these parties. and at the same time, he has a law on foreign agents which makes honest every organization a media al it's a criminal if they're receiving foreign financing. what is this? this is a sort of real collapse of them around. it is a super example of double

standard from his side. amy: helsinki has hosted numerous cold war-era negotiations between the united states and what was then the soviet union. can you talk about that history and the meaning of today summit? even that word was questioned until trump repeated it over and over that it is a summit, even if he did not have an exact agenda for it. the distinction between protesting these leaders and whether or not the summit itself is been protested? helsinki does have a history of summits b between the sovieit union and russia, and even after the collapse of the soviet union between russia and the united states. but of course this is not the same finland. finland used to be a country that had to declare itself nextal in order to survive

to a big neighbor, russia, or soviet union, rather. this is long overdue to believe that finland is the same neutral country. i can imagine that mr. putin agreed to have the summit in helsinki because he definitely non-natocome to a country. it is true finland is a non-nato -- vehemently objected to any kind of forced neutrality. as an eu member state, i would say it proud eu member state, it it is of course politically aligned with the e.u. and has been extremely close cooperation with nato. amy: even a lot of the corporate networks are based there today, massive number of journalists in

helsinki, in the u.s. there is very little coverage of the thousands of people in the streets and in the main belltower that is "warm our hearts, not the planet." message of the protesters. you are a member of the green party. what you are specifically calling for now a few years after, well, a year after president trump has pulled out of the paris climate agreement. >> yes, indeed, you mention a very important point. this whole show -- which i hope is not only going to be a show -- but it is a sign that the two leaders, they could not care less about the future of this planet. basically, they care about themselves, their power, their future. and this i is very, very irirresponsisible because in evy corner of the planet, we start to see that climate change is an

existential threat to the people and the planet. and if these two leaders will not talk about it, then we will speak about these things in the street and in the squares, and that is what we are doing. secondly, we need to talk about human rights. they are both euro and human rights. both are a danger to rule of law and democracy. even if we don't have hoped the two presidents will take up these issues and start to defend democracy, we need to radiate this through the international attention we can now have by the site of the summit and maybe slowly these things become more important that also the leaders have to take them seriously. amy: trump is coming at a meeting of nato which he fiercely attacked, not so much the organization nato, but that countries were not spending militariesy on their . specificalally, naming u.s. weapons manufacturers like weapon sales show saying they should be spending far more.

as a green party member and politician, your response? basically, this is also something that trump is trying to impose on the eu countries and other nato member states. it shows a large motivation for nato cooperation, the success of the amerirican weapos industriries. this is very dangerous for world peace. let's hope the european union will take a lesson of all of this, of this uncertainty, unpredictability that president trump is bringing to major corporation will start to realize -- rely more on its own defense policy. this is also something that finland very much hopes for. and in a couple of the last years, there's been quite a big step towards a common european defense, also innovation and

research. and defense material. probably the best lesson from trump's unpredictability is the eu finally get its act together more on the defense side as well. amy: what do you want to come out of this summit today? realistic, ie don't expecect climate change, e global poverty, will hit the nerves of these two leaders. but there is some slight hope they will agree to come back to negotiation table in order to come back to disarmament negotiations. indeed, some very important international agreements between the two countries will run out in 2021. the so-called new start agreement. so we need to be secured of continuation of coming back to the negotiation tables on disarmament. so my hope is that this might be the best outcome of the summit,

which we will hear about very soon. amy: do you think it is a good thing or a bad thing they are meeting? >> i think it is a good thing. i think the people that i am working with all think that dialogue is important, but dialogue on what is very important. but there is the world's attention n on the two leaders. while i think people a all over our countries, the united states, the european union, even in russia to some extent, people are more aware of the global threats and w what reallyly neeo be discussed by leaders. it is a good thing that they talk. at least that they start talking . this has been going on for eight years without any real dialogue between the two countries. -- s an eu country, finland hello? amy: go ahead. >> i just wanted to say i think

it is a good thing that finland can host this important opportunity to start a dialogue between the two. amy: i would do thank you for joining us, heidi hautala, finnish politician, vice european of the parliament. member of the green league, part of the european green party. she stood in front of the presidential palace were presidents trump and putin are holding their summit. when we come back, we will be joined for a debate by pulitzer prize-winning journalist glenn greenwald and peace leader joe cirincione, head of the file shares fun. stay with us. -- head of the plowshares fund. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

president trump holding a summit with russian president vladimimr putin in helsinki, finland today, beginning with a one-on-one, 90 minute meeting where only their translators will attend with them. putin kept trump waiting for the summit by landing in finland about an hour late. this morning trump and putin made a statement before the private meeting at a photo op in which trump said they would discuss china, trade, and nuclear weapons. pres. trump: great opportunities countries, that frankly, we have not been getting along veryry well for te last number of years. i then you're not too long. it is getting close to two years. i think we will end upup havingn extraordininary relationship.p. i've been saying and i'm sure you have heard over the years and as i campaign, said getting along with rusussia is a good thing, not a bad thing. i think the world wants to see us get along. we are t the two great nuclear powers. .e have 90% of the nuclear

and that is not a good thing, it is a bad thing. we hopopefully can do something about that because it is not a positive force, it is a negative force. so we will be talking about that, among other things. amy: president trump faces pressure from to confront putin over kremlin meddling in the 2016 u.s. presidential election after a grand jury indicted 12 russian intelligence officers for their alleged role in hacking email accounts controlled by the democratic national committee and hillary clinton's campaign. before today's meeting, trump tweeted that he blamed poor relations between the u.s. and russia on justice department's probe, writing -- "our relationship with russia has never been worse thanks to many years of u.s. foolishness and stupidity and now, the rigged witch hunt!" trump also tweeted -- john "president obama thought crooked hillary was going to win the election, so when he was informed by the fbi about russian meddling, he said it could not happen, was no video, did nothing." about it and it interview in

turnberry, scotland, he told cbs news our anchor jeff glor what he expects from his meeting with putin. pres. trump: low expectations. i think getting along with russia is a good thing, but it is possible we won't. i think we are greatly hampered by this whole witch hunt going on in the united states, the russian witch hunt. >> the russians were indicted, would you ask putin to send them here? pres. trump: i might. again, this was during the obama administration. they were doing whatever it was during the obama administration. amy: for more, we're hosting a debate. in washington, d.c., we are joined by joe cirincione, president of ploughshares fund, a global sececurity foundation. he is the author of "nuclear nightmares: securing the world before it is too late" and "bomb scare: the history and future of nuclear weapons." his recent defensese one a artie is headlined, "a no-cost, no-brainer of a nuclear deal."

and joining us from rio de janeiro, brazil, is glenn greenwald, pulitzer prize-winning journalist and one of the founding editors of the intercept. he recently returned from a trip from russia where he met with nsa whistleblower edward snowden. he tweeted a photo of them together with a caption reading "so excited to reunite today with one of this generation's greatest whistleblowers and my colleague in defense of press freedoms, edward snowden." welcome both of you to democracy now! joe cirincione, you're deeply concerned about nuclear weapons, but the nuclear arms race. do you think this meeting, the summit that trump has called in helsinki is a good thing? >> no, i do not. this is a danger to america and to the west. this is without precedent in modern american history. we have never had an american leader that was this week, this obsequious towards a murdering tyrant like vladimir putin. both of these gentlemen have terrible records on freedom of the press, encouraging for dissipation in the rule of their

countries. there is one good thing and only one good thing that i can see that could come out of this meeting and that is the extension of the new start agreement, the agreement that limit u.s. and russian strategic nuclear forces. we have been limiting these forces since richard nixon agreed to do so in 1972. in 2021. expires if those limits come off, we will not only be in an arms race -- which we now are -- but an arms race without guide rails, without evidence, without any con of structured talks to limit the arms race. that is the only good thing that could come out of this summit. good ornn greenwald, bad, the summit, and what do you want to see come out of this? >> i think it is excellent. i would just say two historical examples, 2007 during the democratic presidential debate,

barack obama was asked whether he would be with the leaders of north korea, cuba, venezuela, syria, and iran without conditions. he said he would. who are clinton said she would not because it would be used as a propaganda tool. liberals celebrated obama. i figured as one of the things that helped to win the democratic nomination based on the theory it is all is better to meet with leaders even if they are repressive, that you isolate them or ignore them. reagan 71 president decided he wanted to meet with soviet leaders, the far right took out as against a net sounded very much like what we just heard from joe, accusing him of being a useful idiot to soviet and kremlin propaganda, of legitimizing russian aggression and the mystic repression at home -- it is true that putin is an authoritarian and domestically repressive. that is true of many of the closest allies of the united

states as well for even far more repressive, including ones that find most of the think tanks in d.c. such as the united arab emirates or saudi arabia. i think the most important issue is the one we just heard which is 90% of the world's nuclear weapons are in the hands of two countries, the u.s. and russia, and having them speak and get along is much better than having them isolate one another and increase the risk of not just intentional conflict, but misperception and miscommunication as well. amy: joe cirincione, your response? says -- why not support a conversation between the people who are in control of, well, essentially the nuclear trigger in the world? >> let's be clear. glenn, there is nothing wrong with meeting. leaders should be meeting. we should negotiate with those we disagree with. we are better off and we do that.

any kinds of attacks on barack --ma it like you saw were you are right to condemn those. i'm worried about this president meeting with the leader of russia and what they're going to do. that is what is so wrong about this summit coming now. we have donald trump, who just attacked the nato alliance, who called our european allies foes, who turns a blind eye to what is director of national intelligence calls the warning lights blinking red about russian interference in our elections. so you just had a leader of russia, putin, a skilled strategist interfere in the u.s. election to what? to help collect donald trump. you know how donald trump -- you now have donald trump coming to meet with him, which is essentially a staff meeting for q and -- vladimir putin to excuse this behavior, to deride america for the bad relations between russia and the united

states. he is airbrushing away everything that putin has done over the last five years from shooting down a malaysian airline or two murdering people in the u.k., to cyber interference in u.s. democracy, to murderous assault in syria. he is asked using all of that away for what? for what gain? isly thing he can get away the extension of new start, but we don't need a summit to do that. vladimir putin offered to do that in his very first phone withand favored 2017 donald trump. donald trump did not know what he was talking about. he added that the phone on hold, according to staff members, ask his staff what the treaty was then he got back on the line and blasted the treaty as being one i did, another obama giveaway he said. yes, extended start. a the price of what is going on here -- but the price of what is going on here, excluding

vladimir putin's behavior when many people think is the greatest threat to american democracy in decades? it is not worth the cost. amy: glenn greenwald, your response? >> i think this kind of rhetoric is so unbelievably unhinged. fishing linksthe into john podesta and the democratic national committee are the greatest threat to american democracy in decades? people are now talking about it as if it is on par with 9/11 or pearl harbor. that the lights are blinking red . this is lunacy this kind of talk. i spent years reading through the most top-secret documents of the nsa, and i can tell you not ishing links send phsighi on a daily basis, but do far more aggressive interference in the cybersecurity of every single country that in russia is accused of having done during the 2016 election. to characterize this as some kind of grave existential threat

to american democracy is exactly the kind of rhetoric that we heard throughout the bush-cheney administration, about what al qaeda was like. i would remind everyone as well that if you look at russia -- at the united states and russia policy during the administration of barack obama, look at what he did. idea12, he mocked the spread by mitt romney that russia was our greatest existential foe. yes, that was before crimea, but it was after georgia, after they were accused of emperor -- imprisoning journalists. he mocked that idea. even after 20 after crimea, after he was told that the russians interfered in the u.s. election, he did not talk about it as 9/11 or treat it like 9/11. he expelled a few russian diplomat synergist everyone to keep it in perspective it said russia's the seventh or eighth largest economy in the world even behind italy and not a grave threat to the u.s. this kind of talk is amazing.

joe's work, which i vehemently support eliminating nuclear weapons, the leaders of the countries that have 90% of the nuclear stock tile happen to be donald trump and vladimir putin. that is not going to change. the question is, do we want these two countries trying to talk and resolve their differences peacefully or do we want them isolating one another and feeling belligerent and attacked which heightens the tension that joe has devoted his career to combating? i think it is much better to have the kind of dialogue that barack obama had with russia than the kind of belligerence that democrats now demand of our government. amy: joe cirincione, do you find it unusual that you are -- you share the same views right now, for example, as dan coats, when -- as the russian indictments were coming down, the director of national intelligence, dan

coats, raised the alarm on growing cyber attack threats saying the situation is at a critical point coming out forcefully against russia. this is president trump's intelligence director. he said the warning signs are there. the system is blinking. it is why i believe we're at a critical point. joe? >> let me say where i agree with glenn. i agreement in democrats or tried to get to the right of donald trump on lots of issues. for example, north korea. you see them try to out macho donald trump, and that is dangerous. of course, i support dialogue. i think the only solution to a lot of these issues, whether nuclear arms control or syria or the korean peninsula, is diplomacy. there are no military solutions to these issues. but what worries me here is not just what russia is doing, not just cyber attacks, not just its efforts to splinter the nato

alliance. what worries me is trump is cooperating with these. that we are not fighting back. that in the almost two years that the president has been in office, he has not once taken a step to counter the cyber attacks that russia perpetuates a dip the basis on the united states. he is not doing anything. he is opening the doors. that is what worries me about this meeting. it is not quite -- it is not neville chamberlain, but on that specter. you have the leader of the countries going in a degree is posture toward putin, excusing everything he has done, basically, brushing it away saying it isis ok, i don't care about your attacks. your attacks on electoral process, it is ok with me. i agree with you that the

european union is a threat. these kinds of things. that is what is so worrying. glenn is right, russia alone is a small country, economy about the size of italy, less organized than italy's economy. it is strong on a periphery. it is not a global threat. at the cyber warfare? iss is a threat to us and it only going to get worse unless we fight back, leslie k -- unless we take the kind of steps we need. president trump isis actively cooperating with putin to promote these kinds of attacks on democracy's all over the world. amy: glenn greenwald, right now president trump has repeated what president putin says, that he denies he was doing any cyber attacks on the u.s., but at the same time, trump blames the democratic party saying they should have protected, you know, that the dnc and the d.c. cc

should have protected the cyberspace more. should have protected the cyberspace more. >> it is not true the u.s. is doing nothing. spend $70 billion every year on the intelligence budget, a large portion of which is spent by the nsa on how to fortify computer systems and to prevent those kinds of attacks. it is true that if you see what the russians allegedly did in 2016 as some kind of 9/11-style attack on the u.s., that does get pinned on president obama. he was the president at the time, which means he allowed it to happen on his watch. he also had six month in office were needed very little in response except expel a few diplomats and oppose him sanctions because he did not treat it like some great attack on a mac and democracy, but it is the kind of thing these two countries have been doing to one another for decades. i agree with them completely. let me just say i do not think this idea that if you meet with

the leader it means you are a legitimizing there are abuses. again, look at washington. joe just works for and left thinkprogress, affiliated with the center for american progress that takes money from one of the most repressive regimes on the planet, the united arab emirates. when he left, he cited that kind of money drowning washington as a reason. we deal with regimes all of the time that are incredibly repressive. the u.s. government is often repressive. we destroyed a right. we still have a prison in guantanamo are people have been in prison for 17 years on an island with no trials. gifted you with other countries -- iiolate human rights think to look at dialogue with other countries as legitimizing human rights is the kind of rhetoric the right used for seven decades to delegitimize attempts to reach peaceful negotiations with the soviet union. that is what i worry about.

i think joe and i are largely in agreement on most of these questions with the exception of how to look at what happened in 2016. i think it is time we move past 2016 them a fortify our computer systems, try and have cyber defenses like we are already doing, but instead of looking at the world to the 2016 election, look at it through the bulletin of atomic scientists doomsday clock that is now at two minutes before midnight, the worst rating since 1953 for the threat to humanity, largely because of the threat of nuclear weapons, along with climate change, that is in the hands of these two countries. and let's hope for a more and more and more dialogue between russia and the united states and move away from the rhetoric that says it is treasonous or dangerous for us to meet and talk and have dialogue. amy: joe, that point, that you are not condoning your opponent when you have a meeting? >> no, not necessarily. but donald trump is with this meeting.

he is praising vladimir putin. i think the protesters in finland had this just about right. both of these men are dangerous. both of these and a press -- freedoms.sic both think the press are the enemy of the people. putin goes further. he kills journalists. assassinated on the streets of moscow. donald trump does not go that far yet, but i think what putin is doing is using the president of the united states to reject his rule, to increase his power, to carry out his agenda in syria , with europe, etc. and trump is acquiescing to that, for reasons that are not yet clear. there is a very mysterious and suspicious relationship the trump has with putin. this is the guy that just undermines the conservative prime minister of the united kingdom. this is a guy that refused to

sign the statement of the g7, but he has never once criticized putin for anything. what is going on there? i was going with you some of his investigative powers to find out what the real story is. what does putin have on trump? >> can i address that? >> this is my final statement. can we get an arms c control tht can extend yet i do expect either one of these guys to seriously disarm, to simply reduce about 60 nuclear weapons that each side had? no, i do not. i think both of these menus this as an instrument of great power status and are not when to shut them without tremendous global pressure to do so. amy: glenn greenwald, do you think putin is something on trump? >> i will believe that when i see evidence for it. let me make two points. number one, if you look at president obama versus president trump come there's no agenda president obama was marked operative with a collaborative with russia and the russian

agenda than president trump. president trump hasn't lethal arms to ukraine, a crucial issue for putin, which president obama refused to do. president trump has bombed the syria, something obama refused to do because he did not want to provoke putin. trump has expelled more and sentient more oligarchs than putin has. trump ended the iran deal, which russia favored while obama worked with russia in order to do the iran deal. so this idea that trump is a puppet of putin and has control and with blackmail is the kind of stuff you believe if you read too many tom clancy novels but is not borne out by the facts. the other issue that i want to make is that, again, this idea that somehow that you are endorsing the repression of other countries leaders if you

meet with them, it is true that trump has center criticized putin -- although he is taken all the steps i just allllied against putin. but he is also never criticize benjamin netanyahu or the theedibly replay showed free press of leaders of saudi arabia or the fascist president of the philippines. it is true that president trump likes fascist and authoritarian leaders and that is a problem, but it is not like putin is the only leader who does not criticize. but what is be consistent about for a long time -- and this is something joe himself recently said that i agree with completely, a lot of these international institutions that like freeed to be -- trade organizations, the wto, devastatedu, have the working-class populations of multiple countries. if we want to understand why we have a donald trump and why we ight andesurgent alt-r brexit, we need to start asking questions about whether or not

these institution that i been so sacred for so long are actually ones that are serving the interest of our country. until we figure out how to solve the root causes that have given rise to trump-ism to fascist extremism in europe and in the country i live in brazil -- which is that these institutions are destroying the economic future of tens of millions and hundreds of millions of people in order to benefit the rich -- where just going to have more trumps no matter how much we take our feet and call him names. that is the issue being most ignored by this rhetoric. amy: we have to go to break. it is hard to do that we will break for 30 seconds. only come back, glenn, you just got back from russia. their number of democrats who are -- there are a number of democrats s were saying trump should have done what obama did, and that is canceled this , onceg with putin indictments came out. and they are setting the precedent of obama in 2013 when

putin gave edward snowden political asylum. obama canceled or meeting. you just came back from visiting snowden. i would like to ask about that and get joe cirincione's view. our guests are glenn greenwald and joe cirincione. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: "police state" by pussy riot. there protested president put ms. we can at the world cup -- protester president putin this week another world cup. the protests were in scotland with the paraglider saying trump is below par, flying over trump as he was outside at his golf course. this is democracy now! as we host a debate between joe cirincione of the ploughshares fund, president of the ploughshares fund, and glenn greenwald, one of the cofounders of the intercept. in past years, joe and glenn would probably not be debating in fierce combat over in issue. it is fascinating to see the

real life is taking place right now. -alliances taking place right now. glenn, a were saying obama canceled the summit in putin in 2013 when he gave edward snowden political asylum in moscow. you just came back from visiting edward snowden. can you talk about what is happening with edward snowden right now, the focus of the helsinki protest -- one of the main themes was these 300 billboards, freedom of the press. what do you want to happen? i don't think you would share president trump's views on edward snowden. >> no n,or did i share president obama's views on over it's known. he wanted to put edward snowden in prison for many decades an excellent took down the plane of a sovereign president, of a country, bolivia, because he that mistakenly that edward

snowden might be on the plane. i just want to say, i really admire joe cirincione. i think we are in agreement on most issues, but there is an interesting realignment taking place that i think deserves a lot more attention. let me say this about the press because joe brought it up. a lot of times when people talk about trump's attacks on press the talk about his criticisms of the media. i don't think those are meaningful attacks on press freedom. what are meaningful attacks on press freedom are investigations into the work at journalists do in the attempt to prison -- and prison sources for giving journalists information that belongs in the public domain. with intercept have had two of our legit sources the subject of investigations by the justice department, one of whom is in prison. wrote angue jim risen op-ed in "the new york times"

after trump is elected saying if trump ends up being able to attack press freedoms, it will be because to did infrastructure that obama created this obsession with investigating and prosecuting and imprisoning sources like my source edward snowden under the espionage statute. the obama justice department prosecuted more soururces under the espionage statute -- three times as many -- than all previous administrations combined. to me that is a real threat to press freedom, not some insults on twitter that donald trump is now taking advantage of. yeah, the idea of canceling a summit between two nuclear armed powers because putin gave asylum to somebody who was a source for pulitzer prize-winning exposes that people all around the world view as heroic an important, i think was insanity also and shows the roots of the attacks of press freedom that we now see from donald trump have their origins in the obama

administration just as jim risen said. amy: in the snowden refugees, as the guardian talks about them, those that harbored, that sheltered edward snowden to protect him in hong kong before he made his way out of the country now facing possible return to sri lanka? they are appealing that decision. very briefly. we only have a minute. terrible humanitarian story. i will people pay attention to it. they deserve asylum, not because of the random connection they had to snowden -- though they did-and house them in hong kong -- the because they are refugees who face serious threats if they return home as it was countries great asylum to people who face persecution, whether it is edward snowden or the refugees that are at the border now in the south of the united states or these refugees in hong kong. they deserve protection. amy: joe cirincione, as we wrap up and we will continue this discussion for part two, that

your thoughts on edward snowden? should he be allowed to come back to this country? do you hail him as a whistleblower? >> this is outside my area. i admire some of the things these whistleblowers have done in disclosing the kind of surveillance that her own government is conducting on us in the kinds of techniques they're doing in secret i do believe we need more sunshine on these. wasi also believe wikileaks clearly used by russian military and intelligence sources directed by vladimir putin to disrupt the 2016 election, to help elect a president of the united states that is probably the worst president we've had in our lives and may lead us down a path of self isolation from the world and we can our national security. yes, i think wikileaks played an insidious role in that. i don't know if they knew who they are dealing with, but we have got to talk about that.

lived understand the sometimes our anger at her own government -- amy: glenn, five seconds? close and lead us down a dangerous path. amy: we have to leave it there but we will go to a democracynow.org for the rest of this discussion. i would to thank glenn greenwald and joe cirincioneçç??

[applause] michael mcfaul: hello, everyone. gloria duffy: joining us this evening is former ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul. he is a longtime scholar of russia and the other former soviet states. he studied at stanford and then at oxford as a rhodes scholar. he was deeeply committed to bringing about democratic change in the soviet union as it crumbled in the early 1990s. he worked with the u.s. national democratic institute and democratic parties and groups in russia on election strategy and political reform during the time when it seemed possible that russia would become a more that russia would become a more democratic society. he was