[captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacifica, this is -- from san francisco, this is democracy now! >> we're holding the doors of climate action summit and blocking them. the solutions are here on the street, not behind closed doors. amy: are you trying to shut this down? >> absolutely. amy: indigenous and climate justice activists block the entrance of the opening of the global climate action summit , demanding california governor

jerry brown do more to combat climate change and to keep the state's oil in the soil. we will go to the streets of san francisco and also hear brown and michael bloomberg's response to the protesters. >> i believe california has the most far-reaching stance to deal with emissions, as well as oil consumption and production. our goal is a 45% reduction in oil production and consumption. >> america is a wonderful country. we have environmentalists are testing an environmental conference. it reminds me of people who want to build a wall on the mexican border to keep people out of a country that we go to for vacations. something is crazy here. amy: we will look at why environmentalists are protesting an environmental conference by two debates, one on cap and trade and another geoengineering. all that and more, coming up.

welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we're broadcasting from san francisco. heavy rains and 90-mile-per-hour carolinaslashing the coast as hurricane for its makes landfall as a category one storm. the storm surge has already reached 10 feet, sending chest-high water pouring into residents' homes, forcing first responders to make emergency rescues overnight. florence has already knocked out power for more than 400,000 people across north and south carolina. the storm is expected to linger over the region throughout the day today, unleashing up to 40 inches of rain on some coastal communities, threatening to cause deadly flash flooding, and toxic waste spills of coal ash and pig manure from the hog farms lining the carolinas coast. this is north carolina governor roy cooper. >> the worst of the storm is not yet here, that these are the

early warnings of the days to come. surviving this storm will be a test of endurance, teamwork, common sense, and patience. amy: president trump has continued to generate widespread criticism for his lies about hurricane maria in puerto rico last year, which he has called an incredible unsung success. he is now falsely claiming that 3,000 people did not die in the wake of the devastating storm. on thursday, trump tweeted "3000 people did not die in the two hurricanes that hit puerto rico. when i left the island, after the storm had hit, they had anywhere from six to 18 deaths. as time went by, it did not go up by much. then, a long time later, they started to report really large numbers, like 3000." he went on to tweet, "this was done by the democrats in order to make me look as bad as possible when i was successfully raising billions of dollars to help rebuild puerto rico. if a person died for any reason, like old age, just add them onto the list. bad politics.

i love puerto rico!" trump tweeted. and puerto rico's governor formally updated the death toll from the storm to 2,975 people, after multiple news outlets and universities demonstrated that thousands of people died during the days and weeks after maria. a harvard study estimates the death toll might be as high as 4,645 people. on thursday, san juan mayor carmen yulin cruz tweeted, "this is what denial following neglect looks like. mr. pres, in the real world, people died on your watch. your lack of respect is appalling!" that is what the san juan mayor tweeted. in the new york primary, governor andrew cuomo defeated insurgent progressive challenger cynthia nixon, while incumbent lieutenant governor kathy hochul defeated challenger jumaane williams. new york city public advocate letitia james won the democratic primary for attorney general. if she wins in november, james will become the first black

woman elected to a statewide position in new york. lawyer alessandra biaggi defeated new york senator jeffrey klein, who led the now-defunct independent democratic conference, a group of democratic senators who aligned themselves with republicans. and community organizer and democratic socialist candidate julia salazar won her new york state senate primary in brooklyn, unseating 16-year incumbent martin dilan. 27-year-old salazar ran on a platform of affordable housing for all, while her opponent, has received more money from real estate developers than nearly any other new york state senate democrat. salazar won despite a number of recent news articles that raised questions about how she had described her political affiliations, family wealth, and birthplace. at columbia university, she was president of christians united for israel and in anti-choice group. she now identifies as jewish and pro-choice. she is also among a dozen women to accuse israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu's

international spokesman david keyes of sexual assault and harassment. keyes has announced he's taking a leave of absence. meanwhile, in new hampshire's primary tuesday, a former refugee from afghanistan named safiya wazir defeated deeply-entrenched incumbent dick patten in the democratic primary for state representative in concord. wazir ran on a platform of education equality, affordable housing, and medicaid expansion. patten's ran on an anti-immigrant platform. she beat him out by winning 329 votes to his 143. "the new york times" reports that former trump campaign chairman paul manafort will soon reach a plea deal with prosecutors to avoid an upcoming trial for his foreign lobbying work in ukraine. his plea deal could include cooperating with special counsel robert mueller's investigation into trump's ties to russia. last month, manafort was convicted in a virginia court on eight charges of bank and tax fraud. the senate judiciary committee has delayed its vote on supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh

until next week. this comes as california senator dianne feinstein, the highest-ranking democrat on the senate judiciary committee, has referred information to the fbi involving an accusation of sexual misconduct by kavanaugh when he was in high school. in massachusetts, dozens of homes exploded thursday in lawrence, andover, and north andover, killing a teenager and seriously injuring at least 10 more. the fiery explosions forced residents of the three towns north of boston to flee for their lives. the andover fire chief said the armageddon." -- the andover fire chief said the scene looked like armageddon. officials say its not exactly clear what caused the explosions, but that it could have been caused by an overpressured gas line. columbia gas was upgrading the gas lines in the three towns when the dozens of homes suddenly went up in flames. in argentina, thousands of teachers and students walked out of class thursday to protest the

president's crippling austerity policies. this is one of the teachers. taking awaynment is the opportunity of not just education but also help, allocating a large part of the budget to security. we see this as a step back. amy: and a new lawsuit accuses michigan state university officials of intentionally covering up a 1992 rape committed by dr. larry nassar, who has now been convicted of sexually abusing hundreds of women and girls. the lawsuit alleges dr. nasser, who was also the usa gymnastics team doctor, drugged and raped a 17-year-old field hockey player , erika davis, at michigan state university, and video taped the rape. the suit says michigan state university then stripped davis of her scholarship after she reported the rape to police, and forced davis' coach, whom she had told about the rape, to resign and sign a non-disclosure agreement. the suit argues "michigan state university could have prevented hundreds of young girls and women from being sexually assaulted by defendant nassar had they only acted

appropriately, decently, and lawfully in 1992." and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we are broadcasting from san francisco, the site of the global climate action summit organized by california governor jerry brown. but the opening of the summit thursday was disrupted as indigenous and climate justice activists blocked the main entrance to the summit. democracy now! was there in the streets. [chanting] now! his is democracy i am amy goodman. we are at the opening of the global climate action summit on thursday morning, but it is not the normal delegates coming through. there are over 1000 people, organizers, protesters, and water protectors that are challenging governor brown, the

governor of california, who has convened this summit, saying chance, notn's last only dealing with emissions but dealing with oil extraction, .emanding that he ban fracking in front of us is a group of people who -- let's find out who they are. >> i am with the climate justice alliance group. the doors of the global climate action summit and blocking them, because the solutions people need to be hearing, the world needs to be hearing, are actually here on the streets. they have always been in the community and not behind close doors, not with people in business attire. amy: are you trying to shut this down? >> absolutely. [chanting] [this is what community looks like] --i am from a tribe in the

in northern california. my people have lived here for over 10,000 years here in california, and we have seen the destruction of his land and mother earth has received from the government. we know the leader, the governor of california, is not the climate hero he makes himself out to be he has destroyed the indigenous lands of california with fracking and with dams. we're here to say enough is enough to it we cannot manage the land properly, hand it back wethe people that can read have managed this land for thousands of years. we know how to be in a relationship with mother earth spirit amy: talk about how you are connected with each other here. >> this says we cannot be bought. >> i hear the voice of my great-granddaughter

saying keep it in the ground ♪ ♪ from the indigenous environmental network, and i come from minnesota. amy: why are you here at the global climate action summit? >> we have been mobilizing, building this movement, not only as indigenous people but building to movement north and south of people in struggle, african-americans, latinos on the asians, poor white folks, labor, small farmers. we have been building a movement of real solutions, and that is why we are here. we are denouncing the link with what is going on in there by jerry brown, michael bloomberg, these corporations, some that are major polluting corporations like chevron, pushing a false agenda around privatization of calledeses, of the soil cap and trade carbon offsets,

carbon tax, carbon pricing. a distraction.t it does not cut emissions at the source. we are here to demand real solutions to protect us and mother earth and our community. [chanting] amy: i am right in front of the climate summit, and we will see what is happening here. .> get this on film get this on film. [chanting music] ♪ am a councilwoman from oklahoma, and i come on behalf of my people for one reason,

because phillips 66 and the fracking and injection well industries are killing the earth, the water, and the air, and that kills us. i am here as a mother, companion, grandmother, great-grandmother, and a future great great great grandmother. it is the right of all the silent nations and all of my people to join hands and to honor the natural laws that the creator put us in, and we're going to change the world. there will be no more oil and gas. we're going to put it back into the ground where it belongs. and miko why are you trying to the global -- amy: why are you try to shut down the entrance to the global climate action summit? >> they are trying to sell the air. everywhere.the air they act as if it stands still and the wind does not blow.

brown is lie jerry telling, trying to say he is going to zero emissions when he is going to up the emissions and double up on fracking. there is going to be more pollution here, and they are going to be in the same environmental genocidal process that my nation is enduring right now. brown to -- tell jerry keep it in the ground] amy: as the protests took place outside the global climate action summit, california governor jerry brown and former new york mayor michael bloomberg , the un's special envoy for climate action, held a news conference inside the summit. governor brown was asked to respond to the protesters. , protesters or else i calling this a hypocrisy, saying california has not done enough to curb drilling in this state. can we expect any announcements to that effect? governor brown: look, as mayor dimensions is, 10

what we're looking at. there is no one-off here, no one thing. there are many things. the board under mayor nickels has released a scoping plan that covers the whole range of emotions, from oil to transportation to trucks to housing, commercial, agriculture, cement, battery storage. you name it, it is there. so my plan is an integrated plan built up over time that is regularto review on a basis, and we welcome any suggestions people have. but i believe california has the most far-reaching plan to deal with emissions, as well as oil consumption and production. our goal is a 45% reduction in oil production, as well as consumption. bloomberg: america is a

wonderful country. here we have environmentalists protesting and environmental conference. it reminds me of people who want to build a wall on the mexican border to keep people at of a from a country that we go to for vacations. amy: soon after the press conference, michael bloomberg headed to the main plenary to address the global climate action summit. he was introduced by nancy pelosi. >> welcome the special envoy for climate action, the founder of bloomberg philanthropies, and the 108th mayor of new york city, michael bloomberg. thank you. [chanting -- our land is not for sale] sale]ir is not for sale]ater is not for

>> our people, our communities are not for sale. 300 elected delegates. mr. bloomberg: only in america can you have protesters protesting and environmental conference. >> what are you with? >> grass-roots global justice alliance. we're here telling bloomberg and the corporate heads and business leaders that our planet is not for sale. our communities are not for sale. air and water is not for sale. they cannot modify the -- they cannot do this. >> i am with a water coalition from the navajo nation.

we're here with our friends, people who are actually impacted and at the places where they say these so-called wonderful projects are happening. this is just a scheme to make money out of the problems that climate change is causing. we're here with the folks that are on the outside earlier to really challenge that until people to quit patting themselves on the back for something they are not really doing. they're not protecting the climate, not protecting communities, not protecting forests, not protecting water. and that is what we are here to demand. >> i am with the climate justice alliance. territories where prime minister trudeau is planning on buying a 6 billion-dollar pipeline. his friends, elected leaders in government and industry are gathering here to put billions and trillions of dollars into bogus technologies like clean

coal and nuclear power and make a hydro project. they are trading out our future, our future, traditional lands and territories, for something that is bogus. they are perpetuating the problem, perpetuating the system causing this crisis. civil society leaders, elected leaders, should stand with communities, not corporations. we're here to let them know they have to pick a side. [chanting] [stand with communities, not the corporations] amy: after the protesters were removed from the hall, former new york mayor michael bloomberg began his speech by repeating his comment from the earlier conference. "only in america could you have environmentalists protesting an environmental conference," he said.

well, when we come back, we will look at one of the more contentious issues within the environmental movement, cap and trade. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

dream. those who this is democracy now!, democracy now.org, i am amy goodman. i am amy goodman and san francisco. we are broadcasting from san francisco where california jerry brown's global climate action summit officially has begun. on thursday, the opening of the summit was disrupted by protesters who criticized jerry brown's record as governor in part because of his support for cap and trade. cap-and-trade is a market-driven strategy in which governments cap emission levels then allow companies to buy and sell permits to pollute. california has the most far-reaching cap and trade program in the united states. last year, governor brown signed an extension to the state's cap and trade law, which began under republican governor arnold schwarzenegger.

>> we have a cap and trade program not designed by me but designed under schwarzenegger, who started an organized, and it continued under my organization. the cap and trade program is the most efficient, the most elegant , to get the job done. ideal not think many of you have heard about a cap and trade that has been in effect since 2017. we have not heard much about that. the key thing to remember is we have a cap. there are 400 industries under the cap, part of the cap and trade business. that cap is going down. it is not the same this year as it was last year. we talking about millions of thatof greenhouse gases are being outlawed. amy: california governor brown has credited cap and trade with limiting the state's greenhouse

gas emissions, but the issue has divided the environmental community. this former new york mayor michael bloomberg, commenting yesterday about environmentalists protesting and environmental conference. we are joined by two guests. peter miller, director of western region climate and clean energy program for the natural resources defense council. and eriel deranger, founder and executive director of the group indigenous climate action and a member of the athabaskan chippewa first nation. we welcome you both to democracy now! protestse massive outside stopping delegates from getting inside or just people, not exactly delegates, from going into the climate summit, major protest, a disruption of former new york mayor michael bloomberg inside as people were saying climate capitalism is going my country. then you have mayor bloomberg

saying only in america would you have environmentalists protesting and environmental conference. there is this big divide, it itms, between big green, as is called, and climate justice groups. let's start off there and then get into cap and trade. >> first off, bloomberg, that is a misrepresentation. at almost every single conference or international gathering, there have been protests outside those gatherings for the very same people that were outside of the global climate action summit. it is not only in america. this is a global issue, so let's just start there. i think there are divergences within the movement, the climate justice folks, and the people on the front line of the extraction industries in the proposed solutions on ways to move forward effectively. that comes from very diverging areas of interest and areas of personal concern.

frontline communities want to see effective change that does not just reduce emissions but effectively addresses their human rights, the rights of their communities, and their ability to have sovereignty and a time to meet over their land territories and lives here to a lot of the big greens are interested in policy, procedure, and reduction of emissions. that is where the convergence exists. this is where we have heavy criticism. what is happening is not representative of the frontline communities. amy: peter miller, your group is considered one of the big greens. as you went into the conference, i am sure you saw the protesters outside. this must not be comfortable for you. >> i think there is a lot that unites us, as well. we're all at risk from the threat of climate change, all of us on this planet. it is an essential threat, and

we need to be doing as much as we can as soon as we can to respond to this threat. welcome the debate and the commitment of partners and colleagues across the world. and the enthusiasm and , advocates for effective climate action is going to be critical. -- let's use the example of cap and trade. explain it and say what you're advocating for it and supporting jerry brown his policies in california. >> sure. with cap and trade does is it is a policy that establishes a decline in cap on a mission and then allows the entities, the sources of emissions that are take that cap, to

advantage of the lowest cost ways to reduce emissions in order to meet the overall target. in california, cap and trade is oft of a comprehensive suite policies that have been developed and implemented over the past 10 to 15 years that, together, compromise the most ambitious climate policy of any state in the country. in california, we have a cap and trade program that is directed at ambitious targets for 2020. now we have a very aggressive target in place for 2030. it is accompanied by direct emission regulation on a variety of sources, renewable electricity standard, a low carbon fuel standard, a variety of policies that help to ensure we are able to reduce emissions across. amy: with the climate justice

action committed to, there is a lot of discussion of permit to pollute. explain how this plays out. >> first off, we do not disagree with trying to create progressive policies to reduce emissions. the movement once as to move into a direction where we are phasing out of fossil fuel to veltman and putting and policies not just to have great targets but enforcement of those policies in a real way. the problem with the cap and trade system is that it creates this license to continue to pollute. in the case of california, we are continuing to see fracking to exist and grow within the state. that is at the expense of looking at carbon offsets. the carbon offsets program, and indigenous nation just signed an agreement that takes their land and puts a new valuation, so they're looking at commodified and valuing the lands. the carbon sequestration value was always there.

no one commodified at before, and now we're taking it and evaluating it and putting it up for licenses for other corporations to use it as a way to continue to pollute and buy their way out of continued emissions growth in certain sectors. brown. --go to jerry let me go to jerry brown speaking last year about cap and trade. republican,wn: as a the democratic legislature, we have republicans all over the country and only one signed into law a global solutions act that has this cap and trade measure part of it. this is the only law in the united states, the only law that exists. it is right here. amy: republican and democratic governor supporting cap and trade. can you give more specific examples of how this plays out? this weekend, we actually were

in richmond, where chevron's first refinery is. the community there complaining that chevron can get a pass on pollution thereby trading for carbon credits somewhere else, for example in the amazon. >> one of the meetings that happened earlier this week with the task force of governors, they were talking out looking at protection and conservation of tropical forests of the world as a part of the cap and trade system. so we are allowing communities like richmond to bear the brunt of the contamination, devastation, health impacts, as well as housing and growing emissions. they are offsetting it and becoming carbon neutral by purchasing already existing carbon sequestration or carbon credits that exist in indigenous territories. with that also does besides

allow the companies to have license to pollute in richmond is that it is also taking the sovereignty and self-determination of the communities in the amazon rain forest and places like ecuador where these companies now have licenses and leases over their lands and territories. we start limiting immunity access -- limiting community access and traditional use of the land of territory. it creates more land grabs and is another step of column in -- of colonization. amy: your response? >> i should clarify that the california cap and trade program currently does not allow offsets outside of north america. amy: other cap and trade programs do? >> that is right. it isaid earlier, important that cap and trade be part of a comprehensive suite of policies into a dress emissions at local sources -- that do address admissions at local

sources. frontline committees have suffered from direct health impacts of facilities in the neighborhoods, and it is google that we reduce those omissions to protect the public health of those communities -- it is critical that we reduce those emissions to protect the public health of those communities. legislation was passed that imposed accelerated retrofit requirements on refineries and on all facilities in the cap and trade program. we agree, it is critical that those facilities reduce their emissions rapidly. l, you're shaking your head. >> i agree the policies are good but it is only when it is an economic interest for the corporations and government that .ction is being taken these communities have been calling for reform and enforcement of policy for decades. we have bared the brunt of the environmental effect, and we are

in the brunt of climate change. we're talking about progressive solutions that does not give our community their sovereignty and attorney and allows reparations to continue to line the pockets while we still live in marginalized economic to visit ands during the conferences its of these industries. >> i agree. i think it is critical that we take action as soon as possible to address that. in california, we are trying to reduce pollution and have been since ronald reagan was governor in california. we have worked hard to help address the threat of climate change, as well as public health impacts of pollution across the state and country. action thatgo to an took place earlier this week in san francisco. hundreds of indigenous inclement activists staged a protest outside a meeting of governor brown's climate task force or the protesters attempting to deliver a letter to brown and

test force members. democracy now! was there. we are right outside the park 55 hotel. kenny -- penny.i live in richmond, california, across the bay near the chevron refinery. my family has been there since the 1930's. i am a founding grandmother of the bay, and we're here because of the climate capitalists that are putting forth these plans to make carbon trading a worldwide phenomenon. in this building right here, the park 55 hotel, is where the governor's, climate and force test scores is meeting, starting the three have a day meetings today. their relatives from the amazon here that have a letter to deliver to the capitalist on the inside.

>> we are outside of this particular hotel the cast this governor's forced climate task force meeting is happening with all these big leaders that recently took a tour of the mira woods in california, and they are looking at it with dollar signs in their eyes. trees worth?these how much carbon can we get out of these and sell it to someone else so we can continue polluting? >> three people, including the secretariat of the gcf, within 10 minutes, we agreed that the talk would happen right here. >> we are paying -- pained that these programs of forest offsets .re being implemented whatever their names, by any name, are being imposed upon

us without our support and consent, in particular in ecuador in the amazon. the governor's climate forest task force is putting $2.5 million -- 2.5 million hectors of the amazon and the carbon market without our consent. we, who are the true owners and guardians of this amazon, insist that we must read our statement to the governor of california. [cheers and applause] like to invite four representatives into the meeting to read the letter. i would like to say thank you for coming to us in a spirit of cooperation and respect.

climate action is difficult. this is one form of climate action that is extremely important. we are also dialoguing upstairs. i am working with a governor from ecuador. i am working with members of a tribe. >> consent will not happen. >> i am working with governments. i am working with indigenous leaders. this is difficult. we are not as far apart as it seems, and we welcome constructive, respectful dialogue. [chanting] to ourecial thanks democracy now! reporters there. guest is eriel deranger,

founder and executive director of the group indigenous climate action and a member of the athabaskan chippewa first nation. peter miller is with natural resources defense council. eriel, you wrote that letter. >> yes, we worked with a member from ecuador and brazil and representatives from mexico, as well as representatives from canada, to draft this letter. the reason why we are seeing governors and so-called climate leaders needing to talk about, what a fine our lands and territories, to modify in -- commodifing, which they are looking to demarcate these as carbon offsets -- offsets, and they are our homes. i come from downstream of the tar sands, and i have a vested in just a protecting our forests. we have to protect the forests

of all of our people. we wanted to send a clear message to those and said that we cannot modify the sacred and allow our lands and territories to be put into capitalist markets so that they can be traded to allow other corporations to continue to pollute our skies and distort our community's right to sovereignty. miller, if you could respond, and that banner people unfurled as mayor bloomberg was about to speak, climate capitalism is killing my community. people saying cap and trade is a part of that. >> well, i think the real threat here is climate change, which does threaten everyone. and we need to be as active as possible, doing whatever we can, to reduce the threat of climate change.

welcome the active debate on how best to do that. we're clearly not doing nearly enough. look forward to working with eriel and the partners to try and address the urgent threat. get intol, you cannot the conference because you were outside protesting, but you are going to be addressing the global, action summit today. you will be on that stage that people protested yesterday, talking about climate change and health. >> this is the big thing, it is not just about challenging capital systems. it is challenging the fact that climate change is -- it is addressing the fact that climate change is a threat for everybody. the problem is the false solutions based on capitalism and geo-engineering and technology fail to address the rights to indigenous

communities, which have led to a host of serious health concerns for our communities for centuries. colonization has created a foundation where our communities are already in disrepair as far as our house, mentally, physically, and spiritually. now we have district of industries and now corporations trying to buy our lands and territories as a way to address the climate crisis. we do not want to be part of these capitalist structures. tonever had to be paid protect our lands and territories, to preserve our coulter and identities, and to protect the sacred. now we're being elite into being part of these capitalists markets in the cap entry system is a way to address the climate. it does nothing to address the system of capitalism and clone is him that -- and colonialism that has put our communities in a state of disrepair for centuries. >> there has clearly been a long history of exploitation and

damage that needs to be addressed and remedied. we do believe that cap and trade is part of a comprehensive suite of policies and can help us reduce the threat of climate change. amy: what you think, eriel, could be the major modification of cap and trade or get rid of it altogether? >> i think it is a ponzi scheme, a scam here and we're not reducing emissions. we're moving market trends by making committees have to pay and other fee to continue to pollute. we're not actually reducing emissions because these carbon offsets are dismissed. amy: we have a lot to go on this discussion, but we cannot do it here. you mentioned geoengineering, and that is our next debate for our next segment. i want to thank both of you for being here. peter miller with natural resources defense council. eriel deranger, founder and -- founder of indigenous climate

action. this is democracy now! we are in san francisco. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

now,this is democracy democracynow.org. i am amy goodman and we are broadcasting from san francisco where the global climate action summit has officially begun. we end the show with a look at one of the more controversial solutions to climate change, geoengineering, sometimes called climate manipulation. geoengineering involves the deliberate altering of the earth to decrease the level of greenhouse gas emissions. while controlling the earth's climate system sounds like science fiction, such proposals are already being explored by government agencies, scientists, and businesses around the world. supporters of geoengineering

endorse radical ways to manipulate the planet, from spraying aerosols with sulfur particles into the stratosphere to scrubbing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. this is environmental scientist -- an environmental activist david keith explaining the idea. >> it is basically the following, you could put fine particles into the upper atmosphere, the stratosphere, where they reflect why some light and cool the planet. i know for certain that that will work. the reason is, it has been done. it was done not by us, not by me, but i nature. a bunch ofy 1990's, sulfur was put into the atmosphere in an atomic bomb like cloud, and the result was pretty dramatic. you see a quite dramatic cooling of the atmosphere. amy: critics of geoengineering say these techno-fixes do nothing to address the root causes of climate change, and worse, can be dangerous for the

earth. for more, we're joined by two guests. gopal dayaneni is a board member of the etc group and a founding member of the climate justice alliance. david keith is a professor of applied physics at harvard's school of engineering and applied sciences and professor of public policy in the harvard kennedy school and founder at carbon engineering, a company developing technology to capture carbon dioxide. he is the author of the book "a case for climate engineering." welcome to democracy now! david keith, you are joining us from cambridge, massachusetts. can you talk about what geoengineering is and why you see it as a climate solution? >> i don't see it as a climate solution. the idea of it as a solution is nutty. we have to bring emissions to zero. if you do not do that, you have not addressed the root of the problem. it is possible that solar geoengineering, the main thing

we work on here, and a combination of emissions cuts might have less climate risks that emission cuts alone, but i do not think we know that. amy: give us some examples. geoengineering idea, it is the idea that humans might deliberately alter the activity of the earth, which we are already doing, but doing more deliberately, as a partial offset to some of the risks of carbon dioxide. but it does not deal with the problem of emissions, and we have to solve that. it is also true that even if we cut emissions to zero, eliminate emissions, we do not solve the climate problem is the co2 we put in the air through industrial action, polluters over central, stays in the air for millennia. so there are no simple solutions to climate change. tois completely incorrect

say solar geoengineering is a solution, but it is also incorrect that saying bringing emissions to zero is a solution because we will still have the climate change. amy: gopal dayaneni, talk about geoengineering and your concerns. >> i find it interesting that we are saying geoengineering does not mean anything, but it has been mentioned in the reports as a potential solution or intervention. i think it is pretty easy to understand what geoengineering is, the intentional disruption of earth's systems, either in the biosphere or the oceans or the atmosphere, in order to, supposedly in this case, mitigate climate to some degree. the real issue here is not about whether it works or whether it does not work or whether we need it. it is actually about what it represents as a social process in the moment we are in and trying to address the root causes of climate change.

every single guest you have had on the show so far today who comes from social movements, from eriel, imagen geoengineering at the end of her piece, to others in a part of the action all recognize that this kind of research is a signal to the world that these kinds of techno-fixes are part of how we are going to address climate change. and it does not get at with the root causes are, which are we have to reduce emissions of the source. we need to restore control and democracy and sovereignty of the communities, respect the rights of indigenous peoples and the rights of mother earth. we need to address reparations for the climate check -- damage that has been done to this point. and we need to actually transition, not from corporate solutions that are based in the same petrochemical industry that got us here, but to energy democracy solutions.

communities having control over the decisions. amy: your response? >> i am not aware of a corporate investment in solar engineering. that billion-dollar figure is made up. it is just false. that is not uncommon. it is not true. what is absolutely true is we have to bring emissions to zero. that involves fighting corporate interests. totally true. most people working on solar geoengineering research are environmental scientists with long track records of opposing fossil fuels. the idea that it is some corporate thing, it is convenient and effective, but it is not true. most important, this gentleman failed to address the fact that even when you bring emissions to zero, you still have the co2 in the atmosphere. yes, i would love to see a reform of democracy, and we should, but that will not magically remove the co2 from the atmosphere.

>> actually, what is interesting -- we had eriel on a moment ago, but carbon engineering, the company david keith started, is financed by marie edwards, a taken. this -- a tycoon. this is part of the same petrochemical industry, suite of interventions constantly being proposed. and to separate solar radiation management from carbon sequestration is what david he could say do so that we're just doing small experiments in arizona to test out whether solar radiation management has a potential future. but the reality is that what we're doing is, when those balloons go up to test his solar radiation management series, it is sending a signal that we are going to need to engage in these

high cost, high energy, corporate techno-solutions. carbon engineering, the company stating thatt is this is about intellectual properties, that there are market values. this is not actually about communities having control over their resources, required to actually address not just the mitigation and not just reducing omissions but also to have control of their own resilience. amy: professor keith, can you explain the solar radiation experiment in arizona? >> no, i want to address those comments directly. carbon engineering, with investment and a close connection to a local tribe, the carbon engineering is trying to make carbon neutral fuels for just rotation as a way shipping orzed

airplane travel, and that only works with very strong regulations on carbon emissions. it only works if the oil companies lose. yes, it is true we have the billion-dollar investor who is an oil tycoon. oil tycoons are generally liberal. but we would only make any money if there was a very, very strong constraint. but carbon engineering is not doing carbon sequestration. carbon engineering is doing low carbon transportation fuels. it may not be a good idea, but it is basically one of the many ways we can reduce emissions. i can see it is similar to electric vehicles, which has some problems and some advantages. but i do not see why it is very tightly linked to solar generation sharing, which is not high money.

these are pretty different things. it happens to be convenient to mix it up, but i am not hearing reasonable arguments why they're connected. >> first of all, this is very much connected to the cap and trade conversation we had earlier any offsets conversation. the carbon engineering, this idea am a david has written about this extensively in carbon sequestration in this bioenergy to carbon capture. these are all based on the suction that we're going to continue to commoditize the atmosphere, continue to put a price on carbon, continue to trade and have offsets in all of these things. that is fun a mentally the problem. at the foundation of the difference here is whether we understand this crisis as a crisis of social inequality and ecological erosion and the erosion of democracy or whether

we understand this crisis simply as about the concentration of carbon in the atmosphere. for all the time and resources and energy that we spend actually focusing on these fantastical, magical thinking, as naomi talked about, and this changes everything, we are not spending our time dealing with the root causes of the crisis, which is what every other guests on your program today from our social movements has been talking about. i think that is the thing here. we could be spending our time and energy actually talking about and focusing on the root causes of the crisis, as opposed to engaging in deadly distractions about these fantastical ideas that we are to do large-scale environmental modification of the planet. we can talk about this small little experiments. what they are is they represent a mind shift. the struggle for climate and climate justice is actually about whether we are going to

attack social inequity, environmental disruption, and eagle of goodwill -- ecological erosion or whether we continue business as usual i pretend there are other ways out of it. frankly, i think urgency should not enable desperation. i think it is easy to say, well, this is just one of many, this is a suite of solutions, we need everything. that is the same as all of the above. amy: professor? >> i am actually not saying that and have never said that. we asf the reason citizens have not been able to get the climate action we need is those in the democracy that put too much power and is a block action. i have taken personal risks of two coming close to losing my job at the university of calgary when i called them out for corruption. i worked on coding emissions and opposing fossil fuels for

decades to it so the idea that it is this dichotomy between it is all about democracy and we need to focus on that and just do business as usual and made capitalism, that is just not appeared if we cannot get collective agreement on controls from the people that allow us to force omissions cuts, we will not solve the problem. that is true. we have to make decisions. amy: we just have five seconds. amy: we just have five seconds. david

>> so many places to go and so