♪ amy: from new york, this is "democracy now!" >> out of venezuela to go. enough interventionism. here the people defend their land. president trump recognizes

guaido,dership of juan who declared himself venezuelan president wednesday. swear to assume all the powers of the national executive as interim president of venezuela, secure an n end of te usurpation of the treasonous government, and to have free elections. amy: we will look at the crisis in venezuela and the long u.s. record of meddling in venezuela's affairs. then we speak to a leading european human rights attorney, author of "law versus power," founder of the u.n. center for human rights. all of that and more, coming up. welcome to "democracy now!," democracynow.org, the wawar and peace report. i'm amy goodman.

the venezuelan government is ofusing united states 's aftera coup d'etat recognizing opposition leader juan guaido as interim president. >> i have decided to break it will medic relations with the imperialist government of the united states. out of venezuela viggo. enough enter -- in venezuela they go. amy: venezuelan president maduro has ordered u.s. diplomat of personnel to leave within 72 hours. the trump administration says it will not comply with the order.

the european union and 11 latin american countries have joined the u.s. in recognizing opposition leader guaido as president. other nations are stressing support for maduro. president trump implied the u.s. is ready to use the terry force to oppose maduro -- use military force to oppose maduro. >> are you considering a military option for venezuela? pres. trump: we are not considering anything come but all options are on the table. all options always. all options are on the table. amy: venezuela is facing a staggering economic crisis caused in part by falling oil prices and brought u.s. sanctions. we will have more on the crisis unfolding in venezuela after headlines. on capitol hill, the senate is poised to take up two bills

today that would end the partial government shutdown, the longest in u.s. history, now in its 34th day. one would grant president trump's demand for 5.7 billion dollars in border wall funding. a democratic bill would fund the government through february at -- through februarary 8 without funding the wall. both are expected to fail. of contractillions workers and some 800,000 federal workers forced to work w without pay, missingng the second paycyk fridayay. wednesday, hundreds of unpaid federal workers flooded the senate office building, demanding a end to the shutdown and backpay. the protesters weren't allowed to bring signs into the building, so they wrote messages of protest on paper plates, which they held aloft for 33 minutes of silent protest, one minute for each day of the government shutdown.

they broke their silence, chanting, "no more food banks, we need paychecks." aviation workers are warning that the prolonged shutdown is leading the industry to a major disaster. unions representing air traffic controllers, pilots and flight attendants said, "in our risk averse industry, we cannot even calculate the level of risk currently at play, nor predict the point at which the entire system will break." president trump said wednesesday he will delay his state of the union address until after the government shutdown ends, capping a day of brinksmanship with nancy pelosi that saw the house speaker disinvited trump from addressing a joint session of congress. pelosi says the shutdown has the the secret service and part of homeland sesecurity starveved for funds and unable o protect all three branches of government under one roof. president trump responded

angrily. been trump: the speech has canceled by nancy pelosi because she doesn't want to hear the truth. she doesn't want the american public to hear what's going on, and she's afraid of the truth. , theuper left democrats radical democrats, what is going on in that party is shocking. amy: but president trump has agreed to delay the state of the union address until after the shutdown in a tweet. in new york city, a federal jury heard testimony wednesday blaming the sons of mexican drug joaquin "el chapo" guzman for the murder of mexican journalist javier valdez. valdez died in may of 2017 after he was dragged out of his car and shot 12 times, less than a block from the office of the newspaper he co-founded in the mexican state of sinaloa. on wednesday, a former lieutetenant in the sinoloa drug cartel testified at el chapo's

trial in brooklyn that valdez was murdered after he ignored death threats from el chapo's s on publishing an interview. in march of 2017, after one of his colleagues was assassinated, valdez said, "let them kill us all, if that is the death sentence for reporting this hell. no to silence." valdez would be assassinated just two months later. in brazil, the family of the newly a nugget graded far right president olson aro -- president bolsonaro is facing a scandal after a newspaper linked his son to member's of a notorious criminal syndicate known as the crime bureau. according to the paper, president bolsonaro's son slavio has long-standing ties to a pair of rio de janeiro police officers now working for the crime bureau. bolsonaro even employed the wife and mother of one of the officers as recently as last

year. the officers have been named suspects in the assassination of the prominent human rights and gay rights activist and city ,ouncilmember marilla f franco who was shot dead in march. iowate district court in has struck down the nation's most restrictive ban on abortion. abortionsaw banned once a fetal heart beat could be detected, summing that typically happens just six weeks into a pregnancy, but for many women even realize they are pregnant. the law was widely seen as an attempt to challenge the landmark 1973 roe v. wade ruling in the supreme court. lawmakers in new york state have approved a long-delayed bill ducting a woman's right to an isrtion if were is -- if roe overturned, illuminating abortions from new york's criminal code. former fixer and attorney michael cohen has

housed speaking to the oversight committee due to ongoing threats against his family from president trump and mr. rudy giuliani as recently at th -- as recently as this weekend. president trump and his lawyer, giuliani, have repeatedly attacked cohen on his father-in-law. this is january 12 on fox news. pres. trump: he should give information may be on his father-in-law because that is the one people want to look at because where does that money -- that is the money in the family. amy: trump's critics say the threats amount to witness tampering. california congressman per ted lou tweeted, "part of the u.s. statue -- congressperson ted -- michael,

cohen has been sentenced to three years in prison for campaign finance violations and lying to congress. congressional leaders suggest they may subpoena cohen to compel him to testify. a powerful house committee has launched an investigation into what it calls grave breaches of national security over how white house officials were awarded clearances to read highly classified documents. democrats on the house oversight committee say the white house and trump's transition team gave clearance to officials who have not had access to the nation's top secrets. among those, former national security advisor michael flynn, former white house staff secretary rob pororter, who received a security clearance despite allegations of spousal abuse, and president trump's son-in-law and senior adviser jared kushner, who failed to report over 100 foreign contacts

on his initial application for clearance, which he lalater revised three times. employment news, the u.s. government shutdown has hampered public access to weather and climate data. visitors to the website of the national climatic data center are redirected to a page reading, "the website you are trying to access is not available at this time due to a lapse in appropriation." this comes as nasa and the this comes as nasa and the national oceanic and atmospheric administration failed to issue an annual global temperature analysis due to the shutdown. the loss of the data from the u.s. h has stalled t the work of other climate scientists around the world. and the 16-year-old swswedish climate activist greta thunberg has arrived in davos, switzerland, where she's calling on heads of state and global elites gathered for the world economic forum to take urgent action on climate change. ahead of her trip to the forum, thunberg pososted a video ononle accusing corporate and government leaders of

essentially doing nothing to prevent a climate catastrophe. >> people say that the climate crisis is something we all have created, but that is just another convenient lie. if everyone is guilty, then no one is to blame. but someone is to blame. and people, some companies, some d decision-makers have knon lives they are sacrificing to continue making unimaginable amounts of money. i want to challenge those companies and those decision-makers to take real and bold climate action, to set their economic goals aside to safeguard the future living condnditions for humankind. i don't believe for one second that they y will rise to that challenge, but i want to ask it all the same. i ask you to prove me wrong. amy: greta thunberg made international headlines last year after she launched a one-day-a-week school strike

against climate change, held every friday outside the swedish parliament. the strike quickly spread and became a global phphenomenon.. to see our intererview with grea thunbebe and her address to world leaders at the un climate summit in poland last month, you can visit our website at democracynow.o.org. and those are some of the headlines. this is "democracy now!," democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we begin today's show in venezuela. the venezuelan government is accusing the united states of staging a coup after president trump announced the u.s. wowould juannize opposition leader president,nterim which hehe declared during a lae opopposition protest. [cheersrs and applause] mr. guaido: i swear to assume all the powers of the national executive as interim president

of venezuela, to secure an end of the your soup a -- of the usurpation, and to have a free election. let god and country reward us, and if not, let god and country demanded. amy: venezuela's sitting president nicolas maduro, recently sworn into a second six-year term, responded to trump by breaking off relations with the united states. pres. maduro: i am announcing to the free people and countries of the world that as the constitutional president, head of state, head of government, i am fulfilling my duties to which i swore people to respect the independent sovereignty and peace of the republic, i have decided to break a and political relations with the. list united states -- with the imperialist united states. signed in a name of the people

of venezuela. amy: the european union and the lima group have joined the u.s. in recognizing opposition leader juan guaido as interim president. cuba, andina, turkey, bolivia are among nations expressing support for maduro. the united states has been ratcheting up pressure on venezuela ever since guaido became head of the national assembly and let an effort to usurper touro a remove him from office. usa could of state mike pompeo called guaido to congratulate him on his election victory to head the national assembly. then national security advisor john bolton announced "the united states does not recognize venezuela dictator nicolas maduro's illegitimate claim to power." on tueuesday, vice president mie

pence posted a video message to the people of venezuela. vp pence: hola. i'm mike pence, vice president of the united stateses. let me express the unwavering support of the united states as you, the people of venezuela, raise your voices in a call for freedom. nicolas maduro is a dictator with no legitimate claim to power. amy: vice president pence posted that video a day before guaido announced he was the interim president. the u.s. led effort in venezuela dates back two decades since the late who go chavez became president -- the late hugo chavez became president. in november, national security advisor john bolton claimed venezuela was part of a "troika of tyranny."

in august, maduro survived an assassination attempt when he was attacked by a small drone. he accused the u.s. and columbia of being involved in the plot as venezuela is facing a staggering economic crisis caused in part by falling oil prices and brought u.s. sanctions. according to the imf, inflation is over 1,000,000% in the last year, the highest rate in the world. there are widespread reports of food and medicine shortages. the u.n. estimates 3 million sinceelans have left 2015 i in an unprecedented migration crisis in latin america. we are joined by two guests in claremont, california.

miguel tinker salas is a professor at pomona college, in claremont, california. he is the author of "the enduring legacy: oil, culture and society in venezuela," and "venezuela: what everyone needs to know." let's begin with you as a venezuelan and professor here in the united states. and you talk about what just transpired, the united states recognizing a new president of venezuela, not elected? venezuela now saying they are cutting off ties with the united states. >> good morning. this is unprecedented not only in venezuelan history, but in latin america. the only similarity i can recall was the bay of pigs, and which part of the u.s. plan and landing prove troops in cuba wao declare a government in exile, and that would request u.s. military assistance, and the u.s. would then land troops. this is a scenario that likely could play out in venezuela.

idodepends on what juan gua decides to do. there is no way maduro can accept another sovereign declaring to be president within the country. this is an effort to escalate the crisis, to polarize the conditions further. it is the equivalent, essentially, of nancy pelosi saying that donald trump is a he has, he is corrupt, laid off 800,000 federal employees, and i am going to declare myself president of the u.s., and be recognized by france, germany and england. it is unprecedented. again, i don't see how it resolves and he of the fundamental problems that exist in venezuela. it doesn't address the economic issues. it doesn't address the social issues. it simply closes thehe door to dialogue to negotiations, whicih i think are the only solutions possible in venezuela. night, vicednesday

president mike pence was ininterviewed on foxbusiness by trish regan. >> let me ask you about this. the president's policies have been seen by some as somewhat isolationist. he would say we don't need to bother being in places we don't need too be. it is a waste of our time, money, resources, et cetera. but he does think it is important, and you think it is important, to take a stand on venezuela. why? --vp pence: president trump has made no secret of the fact that he is not a fan of american deployments all over the world and american entanglement. our first president, george washington, , had the sameme concererns. and yet, president trump has always had a very different view of our hemisphere. he's long understood that the united states has a special responsibility to support and

nurture democracy and freedom in this hemisphere. amy: vice president pence talking about the difference when a country is in this i --sphehere, professor mcgil professor miguel tinker salas. presidenter salas: trump has no experience in latin america. his own elections were corrupt, and from the perspective of u.s. observers, largely illegal. a president who separates families and their children at the border. a president who will not even consider asylum claims i latin americans fleeing conditions created in part by u.s. policy in central america. the reality is this is a politically driven agenda, marcoy by miami elites rubio, mike pompeo, by john bolton. indicated in november with

the declaration of a wish to eliminate what they called the "troika of tear any," it was clear they were going to go after venezuela, cuba, and nicaragua. it is no coincidence this happenened yesterday. yesterday was the anniversary of jimenezer of dictator in 1958. we saw the build up for it in the weeks before that with guaido's declaration, trump's declaration, and then the lima group. mexico and oregon why -- and ,ruguay are not a part of it and have offered to negotiate to provide context for dialogue in latin america, as have spain and portugal. i think it is important to understand there are alternative voices that recognize that what is happening is an infringement on sovereignty and the

independence of venezuela, and charter and.n. international treaties, where, again, countries do not metal in the -- do not meddle in the internal affairs of other countries. we should understand the head of the oif has made the greatest effort to try and have regime change in venezuela. the reason why the lima group was created is because they couldn't get them to condemn the government of venezuela, so the conservative government created the lima group as a pressure against the government of venezuela. amy: on wednesday, i reporter asked president trump if he is considering military options in venezuela. >> i want to ask you about venezuela today. administration officials told

reporters that all options are on the table. are you considering military options for venezuela? pres. trump: we are not considering anything, but all options are on the table. all options always. all options are on the table. amy: all options are on the tablble, professor tinkeker sal. prof. tinker salas: that obviously includes a military threat. what we are talking about is intervention. there is a long history of intervention in venezuela. it starts with the discovery of oil in 1922, when there was a symbiotic relationship between the oil industry of venezuela and the u.s. government, the u.s. society and economy. in many ways the progression of oil industry and oil linked to countries -- linked the countries together. it also meant the u.s. engaged in a fundamental nationbuilding project in venezuela, trying to create institutions that would be similar to the u.s. and would favor u.s. foreign investments

in the repatriation of profits. the only country in latin america by the 1940's that allowed for foreign capital. but when venezuela became exporter of oil, it also became a net importer of food. it created a tremendous dependence. but the greatest intervention of the u.s. has been the sale of the american way of life, the consumer value, the notion that venezuela was an exceptional country. it created this dependence to the u.s., to the oil industry, that is now fracturing the country because much of that dependence is to blame for the lack of other economic development in the country, along with government mismanagement and u.s. sanctions, which have worsened conditions in venezuela because it impedes the country from access to credit, from being able to renegotiate debt. part of that intervention is multifaceted. amy: i wanted to ask, you look at three countries.

iraq, andu.s. invades ,il country in the middle east right before president trump utters the term m -- president bush utters the term "axis of evil" as they vilify iraq before the invasion. go back to i iran, the cia funda coup d'etat against a democratically elected leader. and then, you have right now in venezuela, an oil-rich country in latin america, john bolton, the national security advisor, who is now calling venezuela one of the three "troika of tyranny." are you concerned that at this point, with president maduro kicking out the u.s. from venezuela, saying within 72

hours, and now the u.s. saying no, they won't go, that the u.s. is setting maduro up for some kind of situation that will lead to u.s.s. intervention? prof. tinker salas: there's no doubt that this is a technical movement -- a tactical movement in which they are trying to corner maduro. they know he has to respond in some way. if he doesn't respond, he loses support among his own base. he loses credibility. he loses legitimacy. in that sense, they know they can manipulate. pompeo has already announced u.s. to us will not leave. that sets up a situation for a crisis from innocent of grenada, when the u.s. utilized the medical students in grenada against the government as a pretext for an invasion. that is always the threat. that is always the challenge. rememberining what trump said,

that a all options are on the table. that would lead to bloodshed. that would lead to destabilization. that would be the worst case scenario. the best case scenario is for cooler heads to prevail, for dialogue, negotiations, farc mexico and uruguay to provide the context for a dialogue in venezuela that would lead to some sort of peaceful trtransformation and solution. amy: we are talking to mig professor andas, author of "the enduring legacy of oil culture in venezuela." when we come back, we will talk to an expert who visited venezuela for r the united natitions. this iss "demomocracy now!" back in a moment. [♪] [music break]

-- ifenezuelan misuse and venezuelan musician here now. "democracy now!," democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. and independent expert on the promotion of equitable international order. still with us, miguel tinker salas of pomona college in californrnia. welcome to "democracy now!"!" talk about what we are seeing in venezuela. are we seeing a coup d'etat unfolding? amy, i am quite honored to be on your program. i endorse every word that my knowledgeable colleague professor tinker salas has just said. as far as a coup d'etat, it is

not a consummated coup d'etat. it is an attempted coup d'etat. we all believe in democracy. your program is called "democracy now!" there's nothing more undemocratic than a coup d'etat. and also, boycotting elections. as you know, there's 26, 27 elections in venezuela since chavez was elected in 1998. game, want to play the you have to participate in the elections. if the opposition refused to participate in the elections, they bear responsibility for the situation that has ensued. beyond that, i want to endorse the words of my secretary-general gutierrez, who has called for dialogue. i supported the mediation

, byied out in 2016, 2018 the former spanish p prime minister. that actually would have led to a sensible compromise. the text was on the table, ready for signature. at the last moment, they refused to sign it. is it a coup d'etat? well, this is a matter of semantics. we have here an unconstitutional situation in which the whatlature is usurping belongs to the exec event judiciary. the judiciary has alrlready declarared all of these actions and declarations of the national assembly to be unconstitutional. lawyert a constitutional

in venezuela, but i didid have e opportunity when i was in venezuela in november, december 2017, to speak with all stakeholders, with members of the national assembly, with the chamber of commerce, university ,tudents, opposition leaders amnesty international, human rights watch, the oes representative, et cetera, and of course, with all the ministers. the function is not to go around grandstanding, naming and shaming. -- function of a rubber tour of a rapport tour is to listen and study all of the documentation and arrive at constructive can prove -- constructive proposals, which i presented to the human rights

last summer, 2018. already implement it some of my recommendations, even shortly after my visit, because i also gave the foreign , a sixr of venezuela page confidential memorandum upon my departure. some of that was reflected in my report. but my concern, and i think it who concern of every person believes in democracy and the rule of law, is to calm the waters. my concern is to avoid a civil war. one thing that i told you members of the opposition is that you simply cannot topple the government, and maduro is

not simply going to roll over. are 7, 8, 9 million venezuelans who are committed chavistas, and you have to take them into account. what are you going to do with them if you topple the government through a coup d'etat? what are you going to do with these people? these people are most likely going to fight. we don't want fighting. we don't want shedding of blood. therefore, the only logical avenue now is to call for dialogue. i hope that the vatican and mexico and uruguay will lead the way. amy: what about the role of the media and what is happening right now in venezuela? you would have no idea if you watched networks in the united states -- not just fox, but cnn in any regular

way what is unfolding. the level of involvement of the united states, right through to this video that vice president juan posted right before guaido announced from the streets that he was the president, the head of the national assembly, the nancy pelosi equivalent. the mainstream media has been complicit in this attempted coup. the mainstream media has conundrum ofough a atmosphere that the public should accept this regime change imposed by the united states on the people of venezuela because ultimately it is supposed to be for the good

of the venezuelans. now, this reminds us of the invasion ofe iraq 2003. supportedream media all of the lies, all of the manipulations of george w. bush and tony blair, to convince the world that saddam hussein had weapons of mass distraction. and on this excuse it was m made somewhat palatable to world public opinion that you would enter iraq and change the government by force. the fact is that here you had aggression,rime of not ononly an illegal war as former -- the late ticket terry general -- the late secretary-general once stated.

here youou have actually a revot of 43 states, the coalition of the willing, against international law. if there is one tenant of the , it is ther prohibition of the use of force. iraq wasck on conducted by 43 states in collusion, breaking all the rules of international law. that was preceded by this media campaign. we have had come for the last years, a media campaign against venezuela. i am particularly familiar with it because before i went to venezuela, i had to read everything. "thehe reports not only of

washington post" and "the new york times," also the reports of the american commission on human rights, the report of amnesty international, human rights watch, et cetera, proposing that there was a humanitarian crisis in venezuela. , i, when i went to venezuela again took the opportunity to interview representatives of amnesty international and the other opposition ngos, but also had the opportunity to study the documents to see the statistics, et cetera. of course, there was no humanitarian crisis. there was hunger. there was suffering. there was malnutrition, et cetera. but it is not just stating that

there is an economic crisis. that is not the crucial point. the crucial point is what are the causes of the so-called humanitarian crisis, and certainly those who are crying humanitarian crisis should be the least to say that they should now solve the problem. there is a principle of thernational law which is principal to stop regime change when they are the ones aggravating a situation caused initially by the dramatic fall of the oil prices. i wanted to make a reference to a professor of the university of caracas. i had the opportunity o of seeig

her for a couple of hours when i was there. called "thed a book invisible hand of the market." this is a book that documents the financial blockade, complexs the whole economic war being waged against venezuela, which reminds you of the economic war raged against salvador in day. toppling succeeding in salvador, it took a coup d'etat by general penn o'shea -- broughtpinochet, which the italian people years of dictatorship.

do we want a could -- a coup d'etat and fitted whaler, and what legitimacy would the government of juan guaido have? there have been many y elections in venezuela since 1998. president jimmy carter and the carter center went r repeatedlyo venezuela to monitor those elections. opinionad a very good of the system and the safeguards of elections in venezuela. so if the opposition really considers itself democratic, it has to play the democratic game and participate in the elections. they have chosen to boycott the elections over the last eight years. another thing i think it is important to notice is that the

mainstream media has always presented the opposition as peaceful demonstrators. videos,e ample violencehs of the them in 2014, especially in 2017. i had the opportunity to interview not only victims of police brutality in venezuela, persons victims of the trained to go from point a to point b. there was a barricade somewhere, and they were either killed or seriously injured or burned. i interviewed them when i was there.

i must say, let's listen to both sides, and let us not just concentrate as the mainstream media does in the united states on the argument of the opposition. you also have to take into account the 7, 8 or 9 million beingslans who are human , who have democratic rights, who have expressed those democratic rights in their ballot box. you sibley cannot shove them up -- you simply cannot shove them away. miguelam gogoing to give tinker salas the last word here. chavez, there was almost a coup. same in ecuador. on the other hand, you had the and innt in haiti

honduras forced out of their positions. what do using will happen here, professor tinker salas? prof. tinker salas: i think part of whahat the u.s. is trying t o is to see if there are fundamental crocs withth the military. that would facilitate their strategy. that again would lead to a coup d'etat. that, i think, would not be the best outcome for venezuela. if we continue to ratchet up this bring some and ship, we -- this brinksmanship, we run the risk off exacerbating this crisis. the best casese solution is to find some process by which negotiations and discussions can take place. we can have cooler heads prevail and begin to have a conversation in which we recognize the presence of the other. if there are electctions tomorrw and government wins, the

opopposition will not recogngni. if the opposition wins, thee chavistas will not recognize. we have to break those loggerheads and realize that long-term, venezuelans have to come to terms with the presence of the other in society and find dialogue and a peaceful solution to this crisis. amy: i want to thank you both for being with us, miguel tinker salas, professor at pomona college, as well as alfred de zayas, joining us from geneva, expertland, former u.n. who visited venezuela on behalf of the united nations. welcome to "democracy now!," democracynow.org, the war and peace report.. when we come back, we will be joined by an international human rights lawyeyer. stay with us. [♪] [music break]]

amy: this is "democracy now!" i'm amy goodman. we end today with a human rights .ttorney ck's work has taken him to buenos aires to stand with the mothers of youngsters disappeared under the argentinian military dictatorship, to exiled syrian communities, where he assembled the case against torture mandated by those high up in the assad government, to new york to partner with the center for constitutional rights in taking action against donald rumsfeld for the enhanced interrogation techniques he sanctioned after 9/11. ,s foreword

written by nsa whistleblower "iard snowden, he writes, when the history of our era is written not by the torturers and their apologists, but by those who never gave up on the promise of the universal declaration of human rights wolfgang kaleck , will be one of the primary authors." wolfgang kaleck is the general secretary of the european center for constitutional and human rights. his new book is "law versus power: our global fight for human rights." he joins us now in our new york studio. what looking at looks like an attempted coup d'etat. talk about what it means in the context of international law. wolfgang: if there are human rights violations in venezuela, of human court system

rights which is not supported by the u.s., which is suffering from lack of money, from lack of resources. the judges have to go around europe and get funding for the court. if anyone is interested in democracy and human rights, they should support the american board of human rights first. second, i appreciate very much theremarks of the one -- u.n. expert who reminded us of the tragic history of u.s. military interventions in latin america in the last decades, and of the 2003 iraq invasion, which is one of the causes why the world is in such bad shape right now. amy: talk about the global state of human rights right now, as you see it. you generally lived in berlin. you are here visiting the united states. wolfgang: everyone is talking now about putin and air to gone,

and also -- and erdogan, and also about trump, and rightly so. but we shouldn't forget the former troika of tyranny, bush, rumsfeld, and chcheney. everyone tends in the light of performances of president trump to think of these men as honorable, respectful politicians. they weren't. they were war criminals. the only reason why they are not in prison is because the u.s. is so powerful and avoided any kind of accountability, and that is tragic. i really think we have to remind in thispened after 9/11 country, the serious breaches of international law.

that helps people like erdogan and the chinese and others to argue, why do you remind us of our human rights violations when you have a prisonlike guantanamo and when you are invading iraqq without any legal justification. that is something which is really important to consider. the other thing is all of these u.s. interventions, all of these military dictatorships led to really, really dramatic disasters in the societies. countries like chile and argentina hahave to struggle wih their past until now, because torture is not something that happens at some point in the past. it has an impact on the individuals come on their families, but also on the society. tot is really important

reach between the current situation in the past. amy: you mentioned erdogan, the leader in turkey, who called out what happened to jamal khashoggi in the saudi consulate in turkey. cia director,he went to turkey and apparently heard audio of jamal khashoggi's last gasps, the torture of khashoggi. she comes back to united states and says at the highest level that the cia feels the crown prince was involved in that murder. she is not allowed to testify in front of the senate. pompeo and matus go test -- and and say theytify don't know. gina haspel is really the one who blew the whistle, but you know gina haspel in a very different way. you report that director gina

haspel ran a secret agency black site for prisoners at guantanamo. your reaction to that news. amy: people talk about -- wolfgang: people talk about saudi arabia. saudi arabia is so economically powerful that no one holds saudi arabia responsible for human rights violations. we have this ongoing war in yemen. thousands and thousands of victims of the war, and dozens and dozens of war crimes,s, all supported by thehe western stat. much thateciate very people are now talking about saudi arabia because it gives us the opportunity to talk about the human war, and there is one dimension of the human war which -- o of the yemen war which is partly discucussed in europe, ad that is the arms trade with saudi arabia.

it is a very tempting situation. here you have the saudi arabian agents backed by the prince who commit this brutal crime. that is awful. that is tragic. but we tend to forget the arms traders. lawyer heading the european center in berlin, so what we now want to do is to file cases against the arms traders as complicit in these war crimes. amy: often we are not aware of that drive and foreign policy, but president trump has brought it right out into the open. he says the reason we are not going to do anything to saudi arabia for what happened to khashoggi is because of our military relationship with t thm and the money they bring to the united states, whether or not that's true. others would's say

cover themselves behind some kind of whatever reasons. so of course, this is the truth. even he talks sometimes the truth. but coming back to gina haspel, gina haspel was part of the torture system after 9/11, which consisted of many different actions all over the wld. not only guantanamo, notnly in abu ghraib in iraq, but ao the ciarogram of knappininand torting terr suscts. no kind of accountability here, no real investigation and prosecution in sinces., we are trying 2004 to hold them accountable in europe. that is the work carried out

together with the center for constitutional rights in new york. this brought me often to new optionsause there are in europe. of the several judgments highest court of europe, the european court of human rights, which declared the cia program unlawful in cases against poland and lithuania, where they were secret detention sites against macedonia. we also filed criminal actions bush,t not only rumsfeld, and the lawyers who justified all of this, but also against gina haspel because she was a very prominent figure in this system. all of these committal actions is if these we,le traveled to europe, upon the prosecutors and judges

all over europe to take care of them. to interrogate them, to eventually arrest them, and to put them on trial. i think people like rumsfeld and cheney are pretty much aware of that situation. they are, for that reason, not coming to europe anymore. amy: very quickly, president obama's approach to all of this, which was let's look forward, not back, in terms of whether or not these people would be held accountable. wolfgang: a very typical reaction. it is stupid because if we don't care for the torture in the past, it will appear in the future again. amy: we are going to do part two of our discussion and start by asking you about your client in europe, edward snowden, who remains in political exile in russia, the nsa whistleblower, and the importance of whistleblowers.

wolfgang kaleck's general secretary of the european center for constitutional and human rights, author of the new book, "law versus power: our global fight for human rights." that does it for our broadcast.

hello, a very warm welcome to nhk "newsline". it's 9:00 a.m. on friday. we begin with the alliance between nissan and renault motor as carlos ghosn gives up his executive position the french government says it wants renault to maintain its influence over the japanese partner. let's go straight to