government would collapse. and that has not happened. would you agree the longer this drags out, the more likelihood there is that the maduro government will manage to persevere, except for a u.s. intervention? >> it depends on what you mean

by persevere. they may be able to retain their hold on power, but this country is going to go to a humanitarian catastrophe like what we have never seen in this hemisphere. again, i would like to come back to the issue you already have a country where 30% of venezuelans are eating less than three meals a day as opposed to only 5% when maduro came to power, a country ravaged by poverty exceeding 90%. when you take the situation and impose these crippling oil sanctions on the country, you are risking creating a humanitarian catastrophe. amy: would you say the u.s. is intensifying this catastrophe? >> this policy of the united states, recognizing guaido and threatening the venezuelan military as trump did in his speech, so that it will decide to overthrow maduro, is a policy that if it works, it can be very

good. but if it does not work, what is plan b? what is the other strategy? are we simply going to stop venezuela from selling oil to the rest of the world and have millions of venezuelans star as a result? -- i think not only that is questiononable. amy: vijay prashad, your response? >> the interesting thing is this unitary in a that the united states is, think is going to be about $20 million. mainly $50 million at most. meanwhile, the united statates d ththe bank of england have plundered this country of billions of dollars, which it could have used in the open market to have bought the goods that it needs. imports to venezuela contracted deeply and partly because of this plunder. we take our eyes off this ball quite a bit. people have not effectively reported what happened, for instance, to the libyan

sovereign fund will stop the investment agency. billions of dollars in libya were held in banks outside the country as part of libya sovereign fund. after the invasion of that country, that money essentially just vanished. there has been no audit o of it. there has been no conversation even about libya's sovereign fund. in the case of venezuela, there's a kind of open plunder happening. $1.2 billion of gold, bank of england says you have no access to it. the money that the venezuelan government has outside the country, the united states -- you knowow, with trump saying it is socialism that goes over the borders and subjugates people, hear the united states government says it is no longer venezuelan money and we're going to control it. meanwhile, y you have a sentence regime which is costing the country billions of dollars. issuemmediate shoe has --

has to be venezuela is permitted to sell its oil. the venezuelan government needs to be able to capitalize the oil fields. there has been neglect of the infrastructure cost of money needs to c come into that sectc. you're not going to be able to say this country -- say this country is one or two years away from oil independence. from 1908101999, it was not the socialists who govern venezuela. and all of those 91 years, venezuela continue to be a one commodity exportrt economy. you cannot put that on chavez. you cannot put that on maduro. that is the history of the global south. countries like venezuela. it is what it take a long time to pivot away from oil dependence. but until then, you've got to allow a country like venezuela to sell its oil in the open market and import goods to help a population that is in the midst of a serious crisis. i think k this has to be the

principal question on the table. of course, the trump administration and its european allies have gone in the exact opposite direction. venezuelato prevent from selling oil, therefore, start the population further. this is hardly a humanitarian strategy. juan: francisco, i would like to ask you about the plan b issue you raised, that the trump administration does not really have a plan b. let's assume a worst-case scenario that the trump administration does decide to send in troops. i don't think anyone denies wall maduro does not have a majority of the population, he still has a significant portion that believes the revolution launched by chavez better their lives and are willing to fight to defend that and there also signifificat numbmbers of cuban advisors that have been in venezuela for years and cuba is not about to cross

its s hands if the united states decides to invade venezuela not somehow back to support the resistance. you are talking about the potential for a civil war that will create economic dislocation, not just in venezuela, but around the world because ththere is a lot of m my indebt, oil -- involved venezuela. it is noticeable solution like removing maduro. >> i think that is correct. butogies with panama, panama is a country with a very small army that can be at least reinvented because the u.s. had a military base in the panama canal. we're talking about the danger, not only of the venezuelan army being able to resist, but also what happens even if it does not -- this is a country where you have a significant amount of arms, of weapons in the hands of the venezuelan military. you have the movement in colombia that are still active,

ally to venezuelan military. i t think what we canan see is n if the u.s. invades and takes , we will probably see a very prolonged civil war and a very bloody time for venezuela and for the region. amy: we want to thank you both for being with us, vijay prashad , tricontinental institute for social research, and francisco rodriguez, an economist. to not thevenezuela amazon, but amazon and what happened in new york. it is pulling out. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: veruca salt's "i want it now" from the sounundtrack to "willy wonka and the chocolate factory." this is democracy now!,

democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. juan: we end today's show with the fallout after amazon anannounced it was scrapping pls to build a major office facility in new york city. the decision came under mounting pressure from grassroots activists and local politicians who opposed the deal. amazon had announced the project in november after new york governor andrew cuomo and new york city mayor bill de blasio offered nearly $3 billion in tax subsidies to come to the city, potentially creating 25,000 jobs. as part of the deal, new york even offered to build a helipad for amazon ceo jeff bezos, who is the ricichest man in n the w. one of thehe leading opponents f the deal wasas democratic congressmember alexandria cortez, who represents parts of queens, the borough where amazon was planning to build its new

head quarterers. >> i think it is incredible. it shows everyday americans still have the power to organize and fight for their communities and they can have more say in this country than the richest man in the world. amy: mayor de blasio blinged amazon for walking out on its play to come to new york city, saying the tech giant "took their ball and went home." governor andrew cuomo is going after the local lawmakers who took on amazon. well, we are joined by one of those numbers, ron kim. he introduced the end of corporate welfare act to the new york state legislature earlier this month. his recent piece for buzzfeed is headlined "amazon shows it's time for states to stop the corporate welfare bidding wars." assemblymember ron kim, welcome to democracy now! talk about what happened. were you shocked when amazon said they were pulling out? >> i was a bit taken back. i thought they were going to stick around to talk to our groups, labor unions,

politicians, to figure out some sort of a reasonable compromise to coexist and be good neighbors and for them to actually have meetings the day before with the mayor's office, the labor grououps, and then all of aa sudden, without any notice, they're pulling out. this is dicatitive of what amazon hasas done before is s a corporation. they say one thing and do another. this time, i'm actually reminded an urban philosopher m mike tyson who wants said, everyone has a plan unless you get punched in the mouth. i think amazon, they got punched in the mouth by grassroots activists. local politicians and community leleaders. this is the time not to play defense. we have to play offense. we got moderate democrats and politicians trying to court them back saying, well, maybe if we

offer something else. can you come back to the table to renegotiate? this is that the time to renegotiate. cannot relylies, we on them to create quality jobs for our communities. we spent too many years subsidizing the growth of the megan a momonopolies who extract and exploit us. instead of them extorting another dollar from us, we need to hold them accountable living for. juan: i want to hear his response to two things, one, the same day that amazon announced it was pulling out, press reports came out that the company had paid no taxes in the last year. no federal income tax whatsoever, for two years. amy: even got money back. back.even got money we're talking about the largest retail company in the world. and also, this issue governor cuomo has been saying that the in favor a whole was

of amazon, and it was just these radical activist and if you malcontent political leaders that caused this disaster. >> something is desperately wrong in this country when 80% of americans are living paycheck to paycheck when we as a nation rank last. and the biggest corporations are paying 0% tax to the federal government? and they're going to try to extort as much taxpayer money out of us. we have shed the light on something that is broken. this is the time to seize the opportunity to set a new course for an economy that works for all of us. this is the time to do it. politically driven politicians that are stuck on the steel liberal ideology will continue to protect the status quo because the status quo and reaches them.

the whole ecosystem around giving corporate welfare -- who benefits? corporate's politicians, lobbyists, intermediaries waiting on the sidelines to get as much money out of the pie. we have to call it what it is. this is not a compassion play for people. thisis is an economic argument. a number of economist's have come out in the last 10 years. there is jusust a statistical correlation between the corporate incentives and the growth in revenue, and the economic growth. if you look at buffalo. foxconn.ok at if you look at every single data point of the last 20 years, all of the promises that these corporations make extort money from us and never deliver on the backend. juan: i want to ask about another issue, the split that occurred in the labor unions of new york city over amazon with some of them from the construction trades obviously backing the building of the new headquarters, and also local

32bj of the seiu, immediately cut a deal amazon and was supportive of amazon coming. but other unions were saying, hey, you're talking about the largest retailer in the country totally nonunion. unions.ile to in fact, the leaders came intoto city council and said that they would not remain neutral in the unionization drive. your sense of what happened to the labor movement in the city over this issue? >> i have the most respect for 32bj and hector, the leader of the group and t the groups that have cut that deal with amazon up front. but i think they are waking up to the realization when you cut these deals in the dark with one or two executives without including the rest of the city, the rest of the labor groups that have been sidelined, when an abusive company has online videos teaching the employees how to beat the union, hahad

organized against the union, and punishing their managers and workers for even talking about organizing toward the union, there is a problem. think any group that has cut the original deal, they are -- there is consensus that amazon wean abusive company and want to hold them accountable living for. amy: governor cuomo said in a statement -- politiciansup of put their own narrow interests above the community, which poll after poll showed overwhelmingly supported bringing amazon to long island city come the state's economic future, the best interest of the people of this state. they should be held accountable for this lost economic opportunity." can you talk about this division that has really exposed a schism between democrats? on the one hand, you have alexandria ocasio-cortez, yourself, another

politicians, and of course this huge grassroots movement. and on the other hand, you have these political enemies. themayor and a governor on other side. where is the fundamental -- juan: and carolyn maloney. >> not to mention representatives who are on our side. blasio, the way he reacacted to this percenent is cuomo,cuomo, governor governor cuomo continues to blame people and politicians for what happened. and the mayor is blaming amazon. there is a difference on how they feel about this issue. the governor thinks that the bigger the company, the likelihood they're going to resolve our economic crisis. -- a mindsetply that is flawed and we should not be going down that direction. this is the time were we have to reset the economy and make sure we move toward an economy of

abundance that takes care of every single person in our community and make sure we reinvest our dollars in stuff that matters. minas appellees, our broken subways, our arts institutions, are -- our schools. they add intrinsic value to our communities which attractive people and talent to our city which then attracts the companies that come here to hire them. that is how this works, not to provide this multinationonal -- bribe these multinational comedies to come here when time after time they fail to deliver ththe jobs they promise.e. amy: can you talk about the end of corporate welfare act that you have introduced? one of the core problems and governor cuomo has come out i did notimes saying, have a choice. i have to compete. other people are doing it. i have to compete and try to give as much money to lower these companies in.

-- lure these comedies in. a bidding war. we must stop. in europe, they completely banned the process. here, the federal government is not going to intervene so i i am going state to state. we have seven states already signed up. design a multistate compact that we will not compete to give away corporate welfare to attract these companies. instead, we're going to have a mutual cooperation to work collectively to hold these corporations accountable. by the way, this is new york city. we set the terms and conditions for people and companies to come here to do business. they do not set the terms for us. ? how do we get to this point amy: ron kim, thank you for being with us member of the new york , state assembly representing queen and a candidate for nyc public advocate. juan: that does it for our show. we want to celebrate democracy 23rd birthday.

that is 23 years covering the movement changing america and the world. a huge thank you to all of the people who have made democracy now! possible throughout all of these years, our staff and volunteers from over 1400 public radio and television stations around the world, especially our listeners and viewers. amy: let's see if we can hold this up. don't forget, you can keep up with us on facebook, instagram, twitter, youtube, roku. thank you for supportrting news with a heart, for hehelping us o where the silence is. happy birthday, everyone. you all made it possible. you made it possible for us all to celebrate democracy now!'s 23rd anniversary. thank you so much. we want to thank our amazing staff. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]