02/26/19 02/26/19 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from pacificaca, this is demomocracy now! >> woman who inflicted numerous risks on american soldiers, on american citizens. she is a terrorist. she is not coming back. president trump make e clear r e is not coming back. she is not a u.s. citizen. she isis not coming back to this country to posose a threat.. amy: with the self-proclaimed islamic state on the verge of losing its last area of controll inin syria, nations around the world are debating what dodo wih the men n and women whwho joinid

isis but now want to return home. hehere in the united states, the debate centers on hoda muthana, a 24-year-old woman who left her family in alabama to join isis. there's no question she was born in the united states, but the trump administration claims she is not a citizen. we will speak with her family's attorney, charles swift. then to "life and death in rikers island." >> it became clear to us that deaths, injuries, sexual abuse, other health outcomes that are often just chalkekeup to thee people who pass through the systems, having lots of problems, in fact are the result of health risks conferred to people from the systems, the way they are operated, the w way thy are designed, creating new health risks for anyone who might come through there. amy: thousands die in u.s. prisons every year. we will speak to dr. homer venters.

he has just written a stunning new book about the health risks of being locked up. plus, we'll speak to prize-winning journalist jennifer gonnerman of "the new yorker" magazine. all of that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in a major escalation of tensions in south asia, india has carried out air strikes inside pakistan the first time in years. india said the raid targeted a cap of the militant separatitist jaishay-the homage. india has conducted four ground rates on kashmiri separatist leaders. india has said they killed a very large number of militants but pakistan has said there are no casualties from the attack. "the new york times" reports the merits were the first time indian aircraft had crossed the

cashmere line of control to strike in decades. the air raid follows a recent spate of violence in kashmir. earlier this month car bombing , a killed scores of indian soldiersrs and a g figight killd both indian anand jaishay-mohamd forces last week. vice president mike pence met guaido.uan pence announced new sanctions against venezuelan officials for their role in blocking the so-calleled to military and aid from entering venenezuela over e weekend as the u.s. continues to ratchet up pressure on the government of president nicolas maduro. >> effective today, the united additional impose sanctions on regime officials, including through border state governors and -- implplicated in last week of violence and a member of maduro's inner circle. these men worked to block aid for people in need and

suppressed peaceful protest. amy: mike pence also said the u.s. is preparing for a new set of sanctions designed to isolate the venezuelan government. he reiterated the u.s. threat ththat all optptions remain t e ma group saide lin they support a democratic transition of power. four people have been killed during the weekend after violence broke out on the venezuelan borders with colombia and brazil over the attempted delivery of aid into the country. the u.n. and other international aid agencies have refused to work with the u.s. and other countries on delivering supplies because they say their motivations are political. meanwhile, two unnamed defense officials say the u.s. military has been collecting classified intelligence on president nicolas maduro in recent days by flying an increased number of reconnaissance aircraft in international airspacece off the coast of venezuela. in more news from venezuela,

univision reporter jorge ramos and his crew was detained then released in caracas monday. president maduro reportedly became unhappy with the line of questioning in an interview. a journalist of being deported. president trump and north korean leader kim jong-un arrive in hanoi, vietnam, today for their second round of talks on a possible denuclearization agreement. the two heads of state are expected to meetet over dinner wednesday before the official start of the summit. trump has repeatedly said kimm jong-un will agree to completely denuclearize despite u.s. intelligence officials saying he is not likely to do away with north korea's entire nuclear arsenal and that they may still be developing weapons. north korean officials have said they want the u.s. to remove sanctions on the country before agreeing to any deal. trump's trip comes as his former personal lawyer and fixer michael cohen is set to testify before the senate intelligence committee today in a closed hearing. reports say that cohen may

directly accuse trump of criminal conduct. senators are expected to ask about plans to develop a trump tower in moscow and whether trump told him to lie to congress. cohen pleaded guilty to lying to the panel in 2017. he is scheduled to start a three-year prison term in may for lying and tax evasion, bank fraud, and campaign finance violations. on wednesday, cohen will appear before the house oversight committee in his only open congressional testimony this week. on thursday, he will testify behind closed doors before members of the house intelligence committee. a startling new study in the publication nature geoscience finds that warming temperatures could lead to a major loss in cloud cover, pushing the earth even more quickly towards a catastrophic climate tipping point. a new simulation revealed that stratocumulus clouds are at threat of disappearing within a century, which would add 14 degrees fahrenheit, or a degree

centigrade, of extra warming to the planet. scientists believe we are currently heading towards a four degrees celsius rise in temperature by the end of the century if humans don't quickly change course, which could have devastating consequences for human life and trigger global crises at a rapid pace. in britain, the leader of the opposition labour party jeremy corbyn said monday his party will back a second brexit referendum if lawmakers failed to pass his party's proposed amendments to the contested deal. the announcement came as prime minister teresa may is reportedly considering delaying brexit, as well as a vote that would take a no-deal brexit off the table. may postponed this week's crucial parliamentary vote on brexit, pushing it to march 12, some two weeks before britain is currenently scheduled toto depat the eu. last week, nine labour and three conservative lawmakers defected from their respective parties over concerns about brexit, forming instead an independent block.

the u.n.'s top court ruled monday that britain should hand over control of the chagagos islands to mauritius. the e court said britain's takeover of chagos in 1965 was illegal anand that chagos should have been returned to mauritius after it gained independence from the u.k. in 1968. the archipelago, located in the indian ocean, is home to a contested u.s. military base on the island of diego garcia. britain expelled many of the island's inhabitants 50 years ago to make way for the air base. original residents of the islands say they hope the e rulg means they will be allowed to return home. however, the u.n. court's ruling is not binding and britain's official response remains to be seen. speaking at a u.n. conference on disarmament monday, secretary-general antonio guterres warned that international arms control mechanisms are collapsing and called on the united states and russia to recommit to the intermediate-range nuclear forces treaty, known as the inf, and to extend the new start treaty before it expires in

2021. security,are seeking not in diplomacy and dialogue, but in developing and accumulating new weapons. in the situation is particularly dangerous as it regards nuclear weapons. we simply cannot afford to return to the unrestrained nuclear competition of the darkest days of the cold war. amy: guterres also called on negotiating parties at the in hanoi this week to take concrete steps towards a denuclearization deal. meanwhile, russian state television aired a map of u.s. military facilities that would become targets in the event of a nuclear strike. the report said that a hypersonic missile being developed by russia would be able to hit the targets in less than five minutes. last week, russian president vladimir putin said he was ready for a cuban missile-style crisis if the u.s. provoked the nuclear power.

yoyou and secretary -- u.n. secretary general guterres'nucls foreign minister mohammad javad zarif quit his post in a surprise move yesterday, announced by instagram. zarif played a central role in the negotiations leading to the 2015 iran nuclear deal. last year, president trump withdrew from the landmark deal, reimposing harsh sanctions on iran, despite international condemnation of the move and u.n. inspectors saying iran n ws adhering to the deal. zarif did not offer any reason for his reresignation, writing simply -- "i sincerely apologize for the inability to continue serving and for all the shortcomings during my service." in a statement released by activists medea benjamin and ann wright who recently met with him they wrote -- on "the reef said when the iran nuclear agreement was signed in 2015, over 80% of the iranian people supported it, as they hoped it would bring a rent back into the international

community and improve their economy. instead, president trump quit the agreement and implemented even more sanctions on iran. thinkst 51% of iranians the nuclear agreement is a good idea because it has brought no economic relief to the iranian people" the codepink activist said, who adjustment with zarif just before he made his anannouncement. a u.s. airstrike in somalia killed 35 al shabab fighters sunday, according to military officials. the u.s. says it has killed at least 180 al shabab fighters in 22 airstrikes since the start of 2019. u.s. air raids in somalia have steadily increased since trump came to office and authorized the use of targeted strikes against suspected al shabab militants. in algeria, hundreds of students joined in popular protest today against president abdelaziz bouteflika's bid to seek a fifth term in the upcoming april election. on friday and over the weekend, thousands took to the streets

around the country calling on the president to end his 20-year rule. police fired tear gas on crowds of protesters in the capital algiers. demonstrators say bouteflika has been in power for too long and is rarely seen or heard in public due to his failining health. in cuba, voters ratified a new constitution sunday, reaffirming socialism as the nation's irrevocable system of governance. the new constitution, approved by over 86% of voters, a also reflects the island's partial loosening of some e of its trade and ownership laws, and includes recognition of private property and the strengthening of foreign investments.s. it also ensures the right to legal representation upon arrest and sets presidential term limits. lgbt activists condemned the removal last december r of language in the draft constitution that would have recognized equal rights s in marriage. evangelical churches worried about the legalization of same-sex marriages are believed to be the driving force behind the e majoririty of the no vote.

in japan, residents of okinawa opposed plans to relocate a u.s. airbase elsewhere on the island in a referendum sunday. over 70% of voters voted against the plan. this is a local resident explaining her vote. taken place have here. however, the u.s. forces, even if they break laws or regular inn's, go unpunished accordance w with a agreement bebetween japan anand the u.u.s i do notot think it is fair. plus, the u.s. m military base s related with warar. i dodo not think they should ext in the w world. amy: thehe japanese gogovernment sasaid on n monday it wouldd nonetheless move ahead with the relocation. for decades, okinawans have called for the expulsion of u.s. troops from the island, which houses about two-thirds of the 50,000 u.s. troops currently stationed in japan. last year, residents elected a a new governor, denny tamaki, who vowed to fight against the u.s. military presence. in guatemala, lawmakers are considering an amnesty bill that could free over 30 people

convicted of crimes against humanity, , including genocide, torture, and enforced disappearances during the country's 36-year civil war which ended in 1996. in 2008, guatemala began prosecuting such cases after years of impunity. inin a historic 2013 ruling, guatemala's former u.s.-backed dictator, efrain rios montt, was convicted of genocide. his case was being re-tried when he died d last year. amnesty international warned of the danger of passing the proposed bill, saying -- "the law represents a serious threat to the rights of thousands of victims of the country's internal armed conflict to learn the truth and to obtain justice for the atrocities that they and their families suffered." over two months after he was found guilty of sexually assaulting underage boys, shelley and media are now reporting on his press gag

order. among other charges, pell was found to the of sexual molesting two boys and forced the boys to perform oral sex on him in the 1990's. he is the highest ranking members of the catholic church to be convicted of a sexual crime. he served as the vatican's chief financial officer. back in the united states former , a staffer on donald trump's 2016 presidential campaign is accusing then-candidate trump of kissing her without her consent before an august 2016 rally in florida. alva johnson filed a lawsuit monday claiming trump grabbed her hand before moving to kiss her on the mouth. she also claims that the trump campaign engaged in pay discrimination and that she received less money than her male, white colleagues. johnson's lawyer says she was prohibited from speaking out about the incident earlier due to a non-disclosure agreement. over 250 youth climate activists from the group sunrise movement took over senate majority leader mitch mcconnell's d.c. office on

monday, calling out the kentucky republican and his fellow lawmakers for their in action in the face of climate change and for excepting huge sums of money from the fossil fuel industry and other polluters. the takeover follows a viral interaction with democratic senator dianne feinstein over the weekend in which she dismissed the young activist request to back the greenen new deal. this is executive director of sunrise movement. >> we have known of this crisis for 40 years, and it was anan emergency ththen. it is a full known -- full-blown planetary crisis now. for 40 years we have seen the way fossil fuel has misinformed the public on the science. we assume the way they have scored billions o of dollarars - por report billions of dollars. was in the way politicians like mitch mcconnell and the gogop elite have taken 80% of those oil and gas donations.

amy: and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democrcracynow.org, the wawar ad peace report. i'm amy goodmaman. with the self-proclaimed islamic state on the verge of losing its last area of control in syria, nations around the world are debating what do with the men and women who joined isis but now want to return home. here in the united states, the debate centers on a 24-year-old u.s.-born woman who left her family in alabama in 2014 and moved to syria where she lived in the isis-controlled caliphate. while in syria, hoda muthana married a series of isis fighters, all of whom died in battle. now she is living in a refugee camp in syria with her 18-month-old son. last week she spoke to abc about how she first came to be a supporter of isis. had an i was 17, i acaccount on twitttter. muslimsall jujust normall grow learnrning off of f each o,

fefeeding off of each other. we heard the c caliphate announunced. wewe interpreteded ourselves tht was upon us to go. amy: hoda muthana is now seeking to return to the united states with her son, but it has set off a debate that has gone all the way to thehe white house. last week president trump tweeted -- "i have instructed secretary of state mike pompeo, and he fully agrees, not to allow hoda muthana back into the country!" the trump administration is claiming muthana is not a u.s. citizen, even though she was born in the united states and has been issued u.s. passports. this is secretary of state mike pompeo speaking on fox business. >> this is a woman who inflicted enormous risk on american soldiers come on american citizens. she is a a terrorist. she is not coming back. president trump made clear she was not coming back. she is notot a u.s. citizen. she is not entitled to u.s. citizenship. she is not coming back to our country to pose a threat. amy: the dispute over hoda muthana's citizenship centers on her father, who was a yemeni

diplomat based in the united states, and whether he still had diplomatic status in the u.s. at the time of her birth in 1994. according to the constitution, everyone born in the u.s. is granted citizenship with the exception of children of diplomats, as they do not fall under u.s. jurisdiction. muthana's attorneys insist she does hold u.s. citizenship and was born in hackensack, new jersey, on october 28, 1994, after her father had relinquished his diplomatic status. the united states issued her a passport in 2005 and renewed it in 2014. but in 2016, the obama administration sent her a letter saying her passport was no longer valid. on thursday, muthana's family filed a lawsuit against the trump administration to allow her and her son to come back to the u.s. to find out more about the implications of hoda's case, we go to dallas, texas, to speak to charlie swift, the director of the constitutional law center for muslims in america. he is an attorney for hoda muthana's father.

swift is a retired navy officer who retired in 2007 as a lieutenant commander in the judge advocate general's corps. he is best-known for winning the u.s. supreme court case hamdan versus rumsfeld. charlie swift, welcome to democracy now! explain the case of hoda muthana . is she a u.s. citizen? forell, first, thank you having me. second, yes, she is. you have hit on the pertinent facts. the 14th amendment gives anyone born in the united states or naturalized are subject to do -- jurisdiction courts, citizenship. subject to jurisdiction was a phrase that was used for diplomats. in other words, diplomats who have diplomatic immunity are not subject to jurisdiction of u.s. courts. father, hoda muthana's

was discharged from that position. and diplomatic immunity is not personal. it is part of the position you hold. if you are diplomat in a foreign country, you have it by virtue of the position that you hold having been recognized by that country or in this country by the united states. case, herthana's father had been discharged onn september 1. she was not born until october 23. i want you to think about it this way. let's say instead of hoda muthana being born on october 23 ali muthana had walked into convenient store, walked in and shot the clerk. something he would never do. but for purposes of this, let's use that hypothetical. now let's seriously consider he is out of this position, ,ischarged for almost 53 days

are we going to say he had diplomatic immunity? not a chance. not a close question. he would have a reasonable period of time to leave the country, which is generally defined as 30 days, but he had not left the country, did not have any intent to leave the country, now subject to the jurisdiction of courts, therefore his daughter, his family is subject to jurisdiction of the courts. andhe is a citizen. and everybody thought she was a citizen. she was issued not one but two passports. the state department recognized that he had -- that ali muthana had been discharged. it was not until after she made an incredibly bad decision, one her family has urged her against from the beginning -- they did not know she was leaving, but they have cooperated with authorities to try to get her back since she left -- that this even came up. if you look at the facts, you look at the text of the constitution, what you have is

simply ignoring the constitution, ignoring the steps on it. amy: how could this expand? explain what could happen in other cases if someone is outside the country. does this mean at this point since they have pulled her passport, she cannot return to the united states? >> it does mean that. she does not have the ability to travel. one of the reasons we are going to court is to seek the court to aid her in her return. the supreme court said any u.s. citizen has the right to reenter. that is an absolute. citizenship can only be lost under very limited circumstances , and it is always a judicial matter. it cannot be done by the , you'ree simply saying not a citizen anymore. in the implications are tremendous. you'reirst part, if comfortable with what has happened to her, imagine another u.s. citizen, outside the country, saying and doing things that the united states does not

like, so they to say, you know at? her birthbelieve certificate or his birth certificate. we questioion it. we are sending you a letter saying i do not think your birth certificate is valid, you are revoked. you cannot come back. by the way, you cannot come to a court here because your passport has been revoked. you cannot come back into the united states. we have closed the door. aree implications significant. in fact, we have been hearing at the center about t these very se letters being used for persons who are born in the united states to midwives, but now we are revoking their citizenship by letter. amy: i want to go baback to hoda muthana speaking to abc earlier this mononth. shame when you hear that? >> very much. >> what you think would bebe a normal -- a process thaterapy, will ensure we will never do this again.

chill time? i don't t know if that has an effect on people. >> i don't know if you are grasped how awful isis was to the commumunity's, the people enslavaved, the minute women w o were accusused of being homosesl who were pushed ofoff buildidin. youou feel regrgret and sorrow part of an foror being organizatition like isisis? >> d definitely. itit is not islamic at all. i believe that 100%. amy: that is hoda muthana speaking on abc. charles swift, talk about her story. talk about why hoda left this country, about her wanting to to syria anding marrying three different isis fighters as they die, having this son. why did you join isis? >> i don't have an answer to that. her parents don't have an answer to that.

for me, the issues here are constitutional. the revocation of citizenship, which the supreme court has said is never a valid punishment. so i look at that part. i think it is noteworthy, though, hoda muthana may hope that she doesn't get punished or get jail time -- i have been a criminal if it's attorney for most of my life as well as working on civil rights -- all of my clients hope they won't go to jail. i would say, though, one of the things she is doing by pursuing to come back here is making herself eligible to go to jail. she puts herself -- by filing the suit, the defense to her actions, the best defense is that she wasn't a u.s. citizen. almost all of the statutes under which she could be charged all require that the crime either originate in the united states .r that she be a u.s. citizen and since the crime did not occur until she got over there

and if she is starting a citizen, there would be no jurisdictionon to try her for te criminal offenses. i establishing her citizenship, she actually makes herself eligible for trial and punishment, something her parents are fully aware of. her father is aware of it. he thinks she should face justice. and if she is convicted of something, she should serve the time for it. but he also believes his grandson and she are still citizens and should be able to return. amy: i want to read one of her inflammatory tweets when she was in syria. she wrote -- on "americans wake up, men and women altogether, yet much to do while you live under our greatest enemy. enough of your sleeping. go on drive-by's, spilled her blood and or rent a big truck and drive all over them. veterans, pagers, more moral day, etc., kill them." >> yep.

and the question is whether that is criminal or not. but my concern is if you strip your citizenship for it. there is a very strong idea -- that plays in over time that if you are disloyal to the country, then you should lose your citizenship. that is how the british approach it. it is not how the united states approaches it because we havee had this absolute free speech. speech can become criminal. you can become the short, but we're never stripped citizenship for it. -- you can be punished for it, but we have never stripped citizenship for. what if it says anyone who does not support the current administration is creating treason? their speech is hurting america and we're going to strip your citizenship for it? the 14th amendment is absolute. if you're going to strip someone based on their words, where is your line, amy?

amy: let's turn -- - >> this is the problem. the issues are always b bger than the person. issues are on our constitutional foundations and how we treat hoda muthana says a great deal about who we are as a nation. we don't strip citizenship. no one, , least and her r famils saying she doesn't deservrve crcriminal prosecutionon. i think we are conflating the two. this somehow she comes back and does not get prosecuted. she may hope she is not prosecuted. again, i i've yet to memeet a criminal defendant who was extraordinarily excited about that prospect. but in choosing to return, she chooses prosecution. amy: i would like to turn to hoda muthana responding to my pompeo's claim that she is not a u.s. citizen.

she was interviewed in syria by nbc's richard engels. andnd it saidpapers i was a citizen. when i tried filing for a passportrt, i it was very easy. itit came in 10 days. i thought t i did not have a problem. i am s sure there is no prprobl. i know my lawyeyer, hopefully, s working on it and he will win the case. >> do you think you will be able to go back to the united states? do you want to go to the united states? >> i prefer there than anywhere else. >> what do you think will happen if you w were allowed to g go b? >> of course, i will begin in jail time. amy: that is hoda muthana, saying s she does expect she wod be given jail time. >> i would think it is a very important separate hopes and expectations. as i said, everybody hopes

they're not going to go to jail for very long. her expectation is that she will go to jail. and the reason, among all things, but family and for hoda, is the 18 month old son who is u.s. citizen by virtue of birth to her. hoda is used the words to her family she has ruined her life and doesn't want to ruin his. amy: in a similar situation, a woman's citizenship was revoked by the u.k.. she fled to syria from london when she was 15. your response to the two? >> well, she is in a simla situation until we get to what country she is from. the b btish and t the americans- i am very -- i like the british, but i'm very proud to be an american. and at the time of our founding and afterwards, we put in place a constitution because of the

very types of abuses that we thought were wrong in britain. britain through around the word "treason" to easy. it vanished people. that is what it did. it was part of its governmnmen's syststem. the founding fathers of the united states having none of that. we set up a constitutional republic under the constitution. we do not swear allegiance to a queen. we swear allegiance to the constitution of the united states of america. and the constitution is clear. the constitution is s not for bright, susunny days. it is for rainy ones. it is for the unpopular. the popular do not need it. amy: charlie swift, thank you for being with us, the attorney for hoda muthana's family. he is the director of the constitutional law center for muslims in america. to uspens to be speaking today from dallas, texas. this is democracy now!

when we come back, life and death in rikers island. we look at -- well, the story of thousands of people who die in american jails every year. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. his name is synonymous with all that's wrong with the prison system -- kalief browder. kalief spent three years at rikers island jail in new york without charge. he was a 16-year-old high school sophomore when he was detained on suspicion of stealing a backpack. browder never pleaded guilty and was never convicted. he maintained his innocence and requested a trial, but was only offered plea deals while the trial was repeatedly delayed. he was held at rikikers isisland years, beatenen by

guards and pririsoners alike. fter enduring nearly0000 days in solitarary confinement and abuses, brbrowder was ononly released w whethe e ca was dismsmissed. he committed suicide on june 6, 2015, at his home in the bronx. he was 22 years old. nearly four years later, the question remains why did browder have to die? is there something inherently wrong with incarceration that makes it a health risk, sometimes with deadly consequences? well, a remarkable new book attempts to answer those questions as it shines a light on the health risks of incarceration. the book is titled "life and death in rikers island." its author, dr. homer venters, is the former chief medical officer of new york city jails. he offers unprecedented insight into what happens inside prison walls to create new health risks for incarcerated men and women, including neglect, blocked

access to care, physical and sexual violence, and brutality by corrections officers. venters further reveals that when prisoners become ill or injured or even die in custody, the facts of the incident are often obscured. he writes -- "we work in settings that are designed and operated to keep the truth hidden. detainees are beaten and threatened to prevent them from telling the truth about how they are injured, health staff are pressured to lie or omit details in their own documentation, and families experience systematic abuse and humiliation during the visitation process." the risks of jail are disproportionately harmfulul for people with behavioral health problems and for people of color, venters explains. he concludes that rikers island must close and suggests how it should be done. well, dr. homer venters joins us now physician and the former , chief medical officer for new york city's correctional health services. again, his book "life and death , in rikers island."

he is currently the senior health and justice fellow at community oriented correctional health s services and an associe professor at new york university's college of global public health. also with us is jennifer gonnerman, staff writeter for te "new yorker" magazine.e. her mostst recent piece is a review of "life and death in rikers island" titled "do jails kill people?" welcome you both to democracy now! ok, dr. venters, start off why you wrote this book and how kalief browder's death relates to all of this. >> early on in my time overseeing the health system in the new york city jails, it became clear our job was not just to take care of people who were injured or address the medical problems people had, but that this system was conferring to ourlth risks patients. our patients were getting hurt because of the way the jails were set up and run. so it was clear my team and i

that part of our mission had to be to use our toolsls as public health, epidemiology folks, as well as doctors and nurses to document what these risks were and to rereport those out. one ofof the things that over te years that became clear is those health risks are not meted out in a uniform fashion. people with behavioral health problems, people of color, our data show were more likely to find themselves on the wrong end off these health risks. amy: talk about why prisons aree illelegal. talk about rikers island, for example. >> we can start the first and most serious health risk, which is death. it is clear there are many preventable or what we would deathsils-attributable that would happen. we work hard to document thohose while i was in the new york city jails, but there are many others. for instance, people that we know who are coming in with very serious health problems, diabetes or hepatitis c or

needing dialysis, who then are denied those services, despite the fact we have them available. people who are exposed to solitary confinement, not just isolation, but the brutality and violence associated with it, who do take extreme measures to get away from the distress that setting causes. those are things that were conferred to those people. amy: tells the story of carlos mercado and angel ramirez. >> they publicly have been reported, entered into the jail system with clearly identified health problems. one with diabetes and one undergoing withdrawal. as has been reported in the press, they both, despite clearly having communicated their problems and even having the problems elicited and understood by quite a few people in the jails, received a punishment response and a neglect response thatt led to their death, even t though they were in the system that was able

to provide them the health care they needed. amy: so what happens to a prisoner when they are sick? you also talked about the tension between the doctors and nurses, the health professionals, and the guards.s. >> in the besest of circumstanc, the correcectional officers with our patients all the time -- they see and interact with people much more than we do in the health service -- they determine someone is ill and needs help or summit he just reports "i don't feel well" and they are taken to medical care and they get the appropriate level of medical care, transfer to the hospital if they need something the jails can't provide. in the worst circumstance, and there are some situations that hardwire i in this list ideal response, people are not able to sasay they are sick or they feel well or when they do, they are not believed so they are kept in a calix intake vent or solitary confinement cell, even know they're saying, i need insulin or i am sick or i just swallowed

something that could kill me, and then they are denied access to health care. there is crushing and very omnipresent ethical problems, human rights problems in correctional h health, that even when they do make it a health service, sometimes the doctor foreigners or social worker is acting more as an agent of the security service than a health care provider. amy: talk about your experiences. he entered the jails in 2008? what did you find? what shocked you the most? o one of the things that shocked me the most was the high level of injury and injury associated with violence. certainly come all physicians, health care people, we have experience of taking care of injuries but so many of our patients were coming with injuries and so many of the patients were saying these injuries were e from things cald slip and falls. patients that come with a fracture to the jaw.

very serious injury. or fracture of the upper arm or the leg, and then say they had slipped and fallen. youou that just did not -- know, we did not believe. it also when you interacted with these patients, they were terrified. in that moment, they were thinking very clearly about their survival and preservation. it makes a very difficult proposition for a doctor orders. amy: you set up an injury surveillance system? arrived,y before i christopher robinson, another young man who died in the same jail that kalief browder was held in, he is been beaten to death. when i did arrive and started with the correctional health service, we set about understanding how many other people were injured, especially adolescents. and handts of jaw fractures. at first we were dealing with paper records, but we quickly implemented in the new york city gel system and electronic medical record. we were e able to really modify

that a major way so we could capture data not just about the type of injury people had, but about whether or not it was intentional, did it happen during use of force, was her bloat ahead. then we could use that data to report outsiside parties that might be interested, with the rates of injuries were so that we could have empirical data that shows the brutality and crisiswas in fact a real for our patients. amy: describe what would happen when you would send in gmail to the department of corrections, the doc, to upgrade and injury, upgrade what you saw. the injury reporting system on the health side, as i mentioned, we build a pretty sophisticated electronic mededil record system. on the security side, a rerequid paper map pieces of paper, injury reports to be updated and amendeded actually on n an inindividual these of papeper. when i would find a patient, as i often look, that had an injury

that was more serious than initially reported or that the circumstances of injury were different than originally reported, unlike in health care were we want all information to lead us to the quickest, best outcome for the patient, thesese paper forms then would be put back in my face of people and say, l listen, you have to find the original doctor, go to the original jail and finest piece of paper that no one can find. this is the proper way to get this addressed, not simply tell us that you think something else happened. amy: why is there so little transparency? talk about the silent complicity you describe. >> these are paramilitatary settings. in the health service, in most of these places, even when we have an independent health authority, we rely on the correctional staff for safety and security. as such, because there is not a lot of mandated transparent t te about health outcomes, but the true characteristics of injuries, for instance, at the time we were doing this work,

most of the system is designed to keep information on the inside. so anybody who wants to change the original accounts, whether it is a patient or doctor or nurse, faces a real gauntlet of challenges that not only are bureauaucratic and administrati, ththe cook put their own personl safety at risk -- but could put their own personal safety at risk. amy: we're going to go to break the come back to this discussion and bring in jennifer gonnerman who read the review of your book for "the new yorker." calledisters "life and death in rikerss island." ♪ [music break]

amy: baltimore's first lady of jazz. she passeded away february 17 at the age of 86. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. i want to turn to kalief browder in his own words. wasef browder, of course,

16 when he was arrested and sent to rikers island. he ended up being effort three years, much of that time in solitary confinement without charge. he was arrested when he was a high school sophomore. police believed -- they said he stole a backpack, but can never come up with the person who made the accusation, who they drove around a neighbor of any person pointed out kalief walking on the street. and then that person just disappeared. kalief would not plead in prison because he was taught not to lie and said he was innocent. held for three years, much of that time in solitary confinement. he said while he was in solitary confinement at rikers, the guards often refused to give him his meals. >> if you say anything that could tick them off in any type of way, some of them, a lot of them, what they do is starve you. they won't feed you. it is already hard in there

because the three trays you get everyday, you're still hungry because i guess that is part of the punishment. you.can make an impact on >> how much were you starve? >> i can't even count. amy: so that was kalief router huffpo live. thised within two years of interview. he took his own life. he went on to say was once starved four times in a row, no breakfast, lunch, dinner, or breakfast again. after enduring nearly 800 days in solitary, kalief browder was only released when the case was dismissed. lifef browder took his own june 6, 2016, at his home in the bronx. he was 22 years old. he was a student at bronx community college. jennifer gonnerman wrote a lot about his case for "the new yorker" and expose videos showing him being beaten by

guards a and prisoners alike. jennifer, you cover the prison system a lot. and you are really taken with this book and wrote a review for "the new yorker." >> i saw on early copy of this book in december. a lot of folks -- as reporter, you often get a lot of books. i started reading this and i could not put it down. i thought it was so important, crucially important. i feel like it covers one of the most overlooked aspects of math incarceration. intoealth risks that folks her when a go inside is something i feel needs much more attention. i think as a society, we have and we do to these not follow-up with the necessary questions. is itr. venters book does pushes the harder question, did this death have to happen? is or something in the jail that led to this?

that is something we need to be asking. amy: tell us the case of ronald speer. >> ronald is one of the gentlemen in the book. he was in his 50's in rikers island. he was a kidney dialysis patient. in 2012, 1 night he felt very ill and try to get the attention of the doctor. a medical office next door to his dorm. he snuck out of the dorm to get into the hall to go to the medical office in the doctor told him, a guard stopped him and a doctor said, he had to keep waiting. the correction officer and mr. speer got into an altercation, which ended with two other guards coming in and restraining him on the floor. that would have been the end of the situation, but then the first officer, brian cole, came in and kicked mr. speer and the head repeatedly and he died right there on the floor. , liedase was covered up about for years until finally, federal prosecutors in the

southern district in manhattan broader prosecution against the officer. he went on trial in 2016. i sat through the trial. the focus was on what this officer did and did not do. one of the subtexts of the court case was what the medical staff was doing at the time. in theime took place hallway right outside the medical offices, and the nurse got on the stand and said when she heard the altercation in the hallway, she opened her door and then shut her door. that she then taught to do that. anddoctor who was on duty here's all of this commotion in the hallway was sitting in his office and never looked out the window, never opened the door. testify to all of this. only opened his door after the whole thing was over and i believe the captain knocked on the door and said, can you come out and help? at that point mr. speer is an handcuffs face down and no pulse. essentially, this homicide took place within feet of the medical staff. that always stuck with me.

the unofficial role of averting your eyes when there is an altercation between correction officers and inmates is something that shows up i in dr. book also. amy: you say 112 people died in new york city jails between 2010 and 2016. that is almost 20 a y year. >> more, probably. >> some years, yes. amy: so what is society's responsibility here? >> i think there are really very large policy decisions that have been made to keep these deaths and injuries hidden. so to under these problems is not simply a matter of a little bit of training for one staffer to the other. we have to establish medical systems that work not only to care for the patients and their health problems, but also collect the data we do in the rest of the country and report it out. we also need independent

oversight. we are fortunate in new york city to have the board of corrections. it really does not exist in most of the other 3000 counties in the state. but they needed to be supported to make sure the health service and the correctional service adhere to rules. amy: you also say rikers shohoud be closed,d, dr. venters. >> absolutely. amy: is it happening fast enough? >> the mayor'ss office is doing an amazing amount of work to come up with the actual planning that can make it happen, but this is a political question. to close rikers island -- amy: how many people does it in prison? >> the jail system today has 9000. we really need to get down to 5000 or so, which means building at least another borough jail. amy: you write "the health risks that are faced, particularly by people with behavioral problems in prison." talk about that. >> i think the most extreme example is in the vicinity, the

notion that people who exhibit symptoms of mental health problems would be then put into solitary confinement where we know they will get worse and often die. the idea that we had a solitary confinement unit for people with mental illness in the new york city jails until 2014 is horrific. that is that a lack of resources. that is not a lack of thought. thought went into it. as jason and others died, that was an affirmative decision. so i'm doing those bad - -- so m doing those bad decisions, coming up with more they're cute model, in most cases means not having peoeople in jail. having people in a community setting, actual health care setting. we built alternative models and the new york city jails. these therapeutic units, but they are incredibly expensive.

those units of wowould be more effective if thy were not in the jails. amy: math incarceration in this country has been taken on a grassroots activist now for years. it is certainly reading i think -- reaching a tipping point were you people across the political spectrum saying we have the largest prison population in the world. how can this be changed? >> there is an important voice that needs to be broughght to this, which is health care systems, health insurance companies. keep in mind while most people do not die in jail or prison, many people are coming home with phphysical and psychological damage from these settings. in the care they need, which they may have struggle to have access, but the care is going to be provided by community hospitals. just the example of traumatic brain injury. we documented the hidden tremendous brain injury i in the new york c city systems and that increases the risks of those people for dementia and cte down

the road that is incredibly costly to them and their families. amy: hundred people on the outside get access to this information on the inside, particularly families of people in prison? >> i think these systems are designed to keep the truth surly from families, who are lighter to all the time. and from what i think -- it is incredibly important to have aggressive journalism, but also the structures that exist in new york city, some should be replicated elsewhere. having a board of correction that demand stayed a, having investigative journalists that dig into deaths is important. amy: there's a new piece in "the new yorker" talking about the opioid epidemic, among other things. >> i think that is also a very good example that most jails and prisons, people don't have access to evidence-based addiction care. many people and up incarcerated because of an addiction problem and the because they are denied to drugs, they leave and we have

documented in new york city, their risk of death when they leave is much higher. in new york city, , we have a methadone program for people who are incarcerated, but very few jails around the country have that. amy: jennifer gonnerman, what gives you the most hope as you continue to cover the prison industrial complex? >> a lot of activists have taken up this cause, which is fantastic. back in the 1990's and 2000's, you did not see that level of enthusiasm on these challenging topics. that gives me hope. and also folks like dr. venters, people who have witnessed things and then have the wherewithal and the courage and take the time to really record them so the rest of us can really, truly get a better understanding of what is going on behind bars. amy: and the access to information u.s. a journalist have, getting, for example, you lead to these videos of what was taking place with kalief being beaten, videos that are taken,

the surveillance system within prison? >> that was very unusual. there's very little video footage that has come from prisons around the country despite there being a number of surveillance cameras. said, the truthth is into c chile hidde honestly, the war r journalistss whoo are taking on the challeng, the more we are going to get to the heart of what the truth is. amy: i want to thank you for serving with us. the formerenters , chief medical officer for new york city's correctional health services. his new book "life and death in , rikers island" jennifer gonnerman is a staff writer for the new yorker magazine.. her piece is "do jails kill people?" democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]

( music ) all petty and exacting details vanish and i see thing as they are, in greattrong masses. the buttons are lost but the garment remains. the sitter is lost but the shadow remains. the shadow is lost but the picture remains. and that, night cannot efface from the painter's imagination-- james mcneill whistler. narrator: painter, printmaker, designer, and critic, whistler was one of the most original and controversial artists of his time.