05/13/19 05/13/19 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] now! amy: from pacifica, this is democracy now! >> the move to important elections, i would say ever in india since we became independent. everyone is fighting for their survival on all sides, the right, the left, the center, peopley peoplple, wealthy -- everyone. it i is an election that no ones going to win.. amy: thehe acclaimed indian wrir

arundhati roy joins us for the hour to talk about the rise of -- the indian elections and why she opposes narendra modi. we lost a talk about the rise of global authoritarianism, her new nonfiction collection "my seditiouous heart,t," the crisin kashmir. >> now there is sort of a bold confrontation between the army and the people who are becoming increasingly militant. roy foray, arundhati the hour. all that and more, coming upup. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in sweden, prosecutors are reopening an investigation into sexual assault allegations by -- against wikileaks f founder

julian assange, and are seeking his extradition to face charges in sweden. prosecutors had dropped the investigation in 2017 because they said the case could not proceed while assange was holed up at the ecuadorian embassy in london, where he lived for seven years before being forcefully removed by british police last month. julian assange has since been sentenced to 50 weeks in jail in britain for skipping bail in 2012 to avoid extradition to sweden. he was ultimately concerned of being extradited to the united states. assange has denied the sexual assault accusations. he p previously faced another sexual misconduct allegation but its statute of limitations expired in 2015. "kileaks editor in chief said since julian assange was arrested on april 11, there has been considerable political pressure on sweden to reopen their investigation, but there has always been political pressure surrounding this case. reopening will give julian a

chance to clear his name. this case has been mishandled throughout." the united states is also seeking assange's extradition over the publication of leaked documents by army whistleblower chelsea manning, which showed evidence of u.s. war crimes in iraq. secretary of state mike pompeo has canceled a visit to moscow today, instead is heading to brussels to meet with european leaders to discuss "recent threatening actions and statements" from iran, according to the state department. the nature of the threats has not been specified. the u.s. announced it is sending additional bombers and an aircraft carrier to the persian gulf to act as a deterrent. the european union reiterated today its continued support for the iran nuclear deal in the face of mounting tensions with the u.s. meanwhile, iraran's president hassan rouhani is calling for internal unity as the nation faces sanctions that could have worse consequences than war with iraq in the 1980's and that he

said amount to "a war unprecedented in the history of our islamic revolution." as tensions risise in the gulf region, saudi arabia is climbibg two of i its oil tanankers were dadamaged anand what it scriribs a sasabotage a attacoff the coct of the uninited arab emirates. the e saudi energy minister said one of the ships w was due to pi up saudidi oil to dever to the ununited statates. the e attacks reportedly caused damage to the vessels, but no caps off these or oil spill's. last w week, the.s.. warned iran or its proroxies could be targeting g ips in thehe region. iran resesponded to ththe latest news aboutut warning. in environmental news, nearly all the countries in the world have agreed to curb plastic waste. except the united states. in a landmark agreement, 187 governments agreed to add

plastic to the treaty that regulates the movement of hazardous materials between coununtries. the u.s. was not involved in negotiations because it is one of just two countries that has not signed the treaty. the amended treaty will make it more difficult for rich countries to send their plastic waste to poorer nations. are 100 estimates that million tons of plastic waste in the world's oceans. this is the u.n.'s r ralph. >> plastic is everywhere. it cannot bebe the responsibiliy of only onone country. it has to be all of the countries of the world comome al consumumers come all organizatis have to come together, including the private sector, the plastic producers come have to come together to find a solution. amy: trade talks between the united states and china ended friday without a deal as president trump followed through on his threat and imposed a 25% tariff on over $200 billion of

chinese goods and accused china of trying to re-negotiate a deal. a u.s. trade representative said friday that trump also planned to raise tariffs on the $300 billion worth of remaining chinese imports. both parties said talks will eventually resume and white house economic adviser larry kudlow indicated trump could meet with president achieve jim king -- president xi jinping at the g-20 meetings in japan next month. meanwhile, in an interview with fox nenews' chris wallacece sun, larry kudlow admitted u.s. companies and consumers will effectively end up paying for the increased tariffs, contradicting a statement by trump last week that china would mostly pay foror them. >> the president says china -- it pays the tariffs, they may suffer consequences, but it is u.s. businesseses and u.s. consumers who pay, correct? >> yes, to some extent. i don't disagree with that. amy: the pentagon said friday it

will redirect $1.5 billion from other military projects to fund president trump's border wall. the associated press reported the funds would be diverted in part from the afghan security forces fund, from a project to destroy chemical munitions a part of the chemical weapons convention, and from air force programs. this comes after the pentagon already redirected $1 billion of military funds in march. dedemocrats blasted d the news d accused the pentagon of again circumventing congress and prioritizing trump's campaign promises over more urgent needs, including disaster relief. in afghanistan, women's rights advocates are calling for justice after two gunmen shot dead a prominent former broadcast journalist and government adviser in kabul saturday. mina mangal was killed on her way to her job at the afghan cultural affairs commission. days earlier, she posted on social media that she was receiving threats and feared for her life. in more news from afghanistan, authorities say they have

captured the taliban intelligence c chief responsibie for last week's attack on a police headquarters in the northern province of baghlan that killed at least 13 officers and wounded dozens of others, including civilians. in pakistan, a saturday attack on a luxury hotel in the port city of gwadar has killed at least five people according to local reports. four hotel employees and a special forces soldier died in the raid that was claimed by separatist group, the baloch liberation army. in burkina faso, gunmen have shot dead six people, including a priest, during the celebration of mass in a church in the north of the country before burning down the church. attacks by extremist militias have been on the rise since 2017, although no group has claimed responsibility for sunday's killing. the u.n. reported at least 65 people drowneded when a boboat cacarrying migrants acacross the mediterranean n sank friday. the migrants came from a range of countries including bangladesh, , libya, morocco, ad several sub-saharaafrirican

nations. this is a survivor of the shipwreck from egypt, mandour mohamed. >> there were 75 o of us. because of h h many peopople w e on the boat, the b board started filling up with water and then it sunk and capsizezed. this was 12:00 at mimidnight. we k kept floaoating in the watr until 8:00 in the morning. the small tunisianan boat came o our rescscue. they came and d took as. along with the tunisian army. thank god we are here. amy: although the number of migrants attempting to cross the mediterranean has gone done since its peak in 2015, the u.n. warns the journey is increasingly fatal for those who undertake it. according to the international organization for migration, nearly 2300 migrants died or went missing in the mediditerraneaean last year. in gaza, mourners gathered over the weekend for the funeral of 24-year-old abdullah abdelal, who was shot and killed by

israeli forces during friday's great march of return protest. another 30 people were injured at the weekly demonstration along the separation barrier with israel. the killing comes amid a fragile ceasefire between israel and gaza following a series of deadly clashes the previous weekend which killed 25 palestiniaians and four israeli. last week, the u.n. warned that 1700 palestinians with gunshot wounds to their limbs may hahave to undergogomputationsns because of a lack ofof funding for reconstruction surgery andnd otr medical treatments. the u.n. r reports 29,000 palestinians had been wounded while taking part in great march of return protests over the past year, of which 7000 had gunshot wounds, mostly in the legs. $20 million is needed to make up for the shortfall in funding. back in the u.s., former vice president and 2020 presidential candidate joe biden has come under fire from environmental groups and fellow presidential hopefuls after a recent reuters

report quoted an adviser qualifying biden's approach to environmental issues as seeking a middle ground on climate change policy. biden has sought to elevate his credentials as a centrist in a crowded democratic field with candidates touting progressive policies on a range of issues, including support for a green new deal. biden supports remaining in the paris climate agreement and reinstating obama-era regulations on vehicles and coal plants, while retaining nuclear energy and natural gas production. the sunrise movement issued a statement saying, "a 'middle ground' policy that's supportive of more fossil fuel development is a death sentence for our generation and the millions of people on the frontlines of the climate crisis." similarly, senator bernie sanders, who supports the green new deal, tweeted, "there is no 'middle ground' when it comes to climate policy." democratic lawmakers senator sanders alexandria

, ocasio-cortez, and senator ed markey are joining a rally today at howard university in washington, d.c., as the final stop on sunrise movement's nationwide "road to a green new deal tour." in more news from capitol hill, senator b bernie sandnders and congressmember alexandria ocasio-cortez introduced legislation that would help millions o of americans saddled with credit cacard debt by capng credit interest rates at 15%. this is congreressmember ocasio-cortez speaking alongside senator sanders last thursday. startrt toy day banksks charge higher anand higher inteterest rates, essentially,y, your credit card becomes a payday loan. this is not anything radadal because we have e these lawaws a very long timeme in dd states, blue states,s, we have them in half of the united states have these laws.

ununtil 1978 when ththey were repealed. ever since then, it has given a blblank check for credit car companies and for big banks to charge extortion-level interest rates to the poor. amy: house ways and means committee chair richard neal issued subpoenas for president trump's tax returns after the treasusury department failed t o comply with a request to hand over the records by monday of last week. treasury secretary steve mnuchin wrote in a letter last week that the request "lacks a legitimate legislative purpose." if the treasury and irs continue to withhold the tax records, the battle will likely head to the courts. the house passed a $ $19 billion relief bill friday, despite president trump's objection to the package over its funding for assistance to puerto rico. the legislation includes $600 million in nutrition assistance to puerto rico, a number that democrats previously said was too low to adequately aid the many puerto ricans still recovering from the devastation

of hurricane maria. a similar proposal in the senate stalled last month. trump has continuously lashed out at puerto rico's political leaders, accusing them of misusing federal funds. last year, he reportedly told white house officials he wanted to withhold any additional recovery assistance from the island. hollywood actors are threatening to boycott the state of georgia after republican governor brian kemp signed one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country last week. the law bans abortion when a fetal heartbeat can be detected, which often occurs at around six weeks into pregnancy before many women even realize they are pregnant. in response, entertainers including amy schumer, christina applegate, alec baldwin, and alyssa milano pledged to boycott movie and television production in georgia if the law goes into effect. milano also called for a sex strike on twitter. meanwhile, filmmakers jordan peele and j.j. abrams vowed to

donate 100% of the fees from their new hbo series "lovecraft country" that is set to film in georgia to the aclu of georgia and fair fight georgia. and in tulsa, oklahoma, city officials have formed a committee to oversee the search for mass graves from the 1921 tulsa race massacre. on may 31, 1921, a white mob killed as many as 300 people, most of them black, after a black man was accused of assaulting a white elevator operator. over two days, white mobs set fire to homes, businesses, and churches in greenwood, a thriving african-american business district known at the time as the black wall street. the massacre was largely overlooked by most americans at the time, but local community leaders in tulsa are ramping up efforts to uncover mass graves and seeking to bring public awareness to the area's history as the 100-year anniversary of the massacre approaches.

to see our coverage of the tulsa race riot, go to democracynow.org. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. nermeen: and i'm nermeen shaikh. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. in india, the sixth phase of voting has concluded in a highly anticipated parliamentary election that is widely seen as a referendum on prime minister narendra modi, who is seeking a secondnd term in o office. more than 100 million people were eligible to vote in this penultltimate phase.e. india's election commission reported voter turnout was just over 63%3%. the turnout in the first five phases averageged 67%, rououghle same as in the 2014 elections that brought m modi to p power. india is the world's largest democracy with 900 million eligible voters. the final phase of voting will take place on may 19 and vote

counting will begin the 23rd. momodi's hihindu nationalist bjn a landslide victorory in 201014. modi's main opponent in this election is rahul gandhi's congress party. gandhi's father, grandmother and great grandfather have all served as prime minister. amy: modi's government has been criticized for a crackdown on civil society, targeting political opponents, journalists, human rights activists, lawyers, and writers. human rights groups have also raised the alarm on attacks against vulnerable populations, especially dalits and muslims. to talk more more about the elections as well ass other issues from kashmir to capitalism to climate change, we are joined by renowned, award-winning indian writer, arundhati roy. she won the booker prize in 1997 for her first novel "the god of small things." her second novel, "the ministry of utmost happiness," was

longlisted for the booker prize in 2017. a collection of her nonfiction writing titled "my seditious heart" will be out in june. arundhati roy is in new york. she delivered the arthur miller freedom to write lecture on sunday night at harlem's historic apollo theater. welcome back to democracy now! it is great to have you here. so yesterday, as you a are givig your speech, your limiting that you could not be in india because your city, new delhi, was voting. can you explain the six week long indian election and how you see them as a referendum on the current prime minister narendra modi? >> well, the six week long election has to do with the fact there are 900 million voters and just let the just except that,

-- dealing with the logistics of that is cumbersome and difficult. although i don't recall elections being strung over such a long period before. there is more is a jerk stuff and that which i don't want to get into, but there is also a lot of anxiety in india, election machines, so on. on modireferendum because in a way, oddly enough, he seems to have, in his -- in his sort of desire to project himself, he is not just burned everybody else, but even his own party. in many places, there are people who are standing for election to say -- who people don't even know because they just say, never mind who the local person you are voting for is, it is a vote for modi. now what does modi stand for?

of course the core of him is the far right, hindu nationalalist core. and that core group remains with them. but in the 2014 elections, he had added another layer, which was the layer of "i am the development prime minister." "development with everybody and for everybody." so a lot of people sort of forgot about his somewhat gruesome past, and voted in the hope that he was going to move india forward economically. and that never happened. he shot the tires off that moving car with what you mentioned. so likely, he is going to lose

that second layer that he had put on. the business suit that he had put on for the previous election. and now he is just campaigning brazenly on hindu nationalism, on national security, on terrorism, and all of that. going to rallyly his base, but lose the support that actually brought him into power last time. nermeen: can you explain his gandhi, whenahul last you spoke you said you previously have been very critical of the congress party, you but you have been impressed with rahul gandhi and his campaigning this election. could you explain what he stands for, what the congress party is proposing, and why you think he may actually beat narendra modi? >> this is not true that rahul

gandhi is the main rival. surely -- i mean, the congress party is the only other sort of nationalist party, but in fact what has happened is very i interesting because the p and the hindu nationalists have the same force rallying around modi. and the force that is against him is actually dispersing into a kind of federalism. so what is likely to happen is the congress will be the glue that holds together a whole lot of regional political party, who are the ones, especially in the most populist state in india, which since most members to parliament, which would be crucial for any party to win -- the congress has no presence inup. it will be regional political

party, which will actually eventually defeat modi and then there will be a coalition which will be held together by the congress. but rahul gandhi, as you said, he comes from the gandhi family and the congress is a party that , myself have written against you know, when they were in power, rahul gandhi was a very sorry figure in the 2014 election. but i have been very impressed -- he did not really have power. he was not the secretary of the party at the time. now he is the secretary of the party. yes, he comes from a kind of political -- amy: explain who he comes from. gandhi, the grandson of the daughter of nehru. of -- i mean,ine the founders of modern india

politics in some ways. they did a lot of right and a lot of wrong. wayas had to fight his back. in a way, his legacy has been more of a disadvantage in some ways, you know? so i admire anyone who has beeen able to come back in that way. he has been able to actually drag the discourse of hindu and conversation about -- if you look at the kind of things that the bjp are saying in campaigning, you know, people who are standing saying things like we will shave all the muslims and force them to become hindu. you know, the level of discourse.

he, especially through this manifesto -- which is -- which has sort of rows back what i see is also a troublesome legacy of the previous congress party, very initially was really pro-ree market, privatization, the destruction of the environment in ways. here this manifesto actually talks about the right to education, the right to public education, the right -- i mean, it promises a living wage to the bottom 20% of the population, which, i mean, you can argue it is not revolutionary but, i mean, not revolutionary -- it is revolutionary for centrist party, it truly is. but when you look at the fact that now you're talking about people are just not even getting enough nutrition, you know? not getting enough to survive.

i think at this point of time, i do agree with the idea of a living wage. crashed thesort of earlier employment program. peopople who are involved in the right information have been activists.rnalists, so there's something that is -- pullingat whole it out of the cesspit and at least bringing the conversation back to a sort of saying place. rahul gandhi has done and i admire him for that. amy: can you talk about the for the elections? it is mind blowing they go on for six weeks. most people in the world could not understand something like that. but the climate that has been

set by the prime minister narendra modi, and also described his background. is interestingnd in the sense that soon after the 9/11 attacks, modi was appointed .he chief whether it had anything to do with the attacks were something to do with the massive earthquake that had really devastated the area, but modi was not a member of the legislative assembly. he was not elected to office in any way, was just appointed, dropped in as the chief industry. and within months of that, there was what is now known as the program in which approximately 2000 people were slaughtered in broad day light on the streets.

within months of that, he called an election and won hands down. after that, there has been no looking back. massacre, after the the captains of industry, as you call them, the big ceos of the big corporations had a big meeting and said -- said he was there candidate. that is interesting because they saw a man who -- i think they saw that authoritarian figure as being somebody who could implement the new neoliberal economic policies which were coming up against a lot of protest. they got, here is a man who can crush these troublesome people, you know? not muslims, necessarily, but everybody who is now protesting the privatization. when he came to power, he had the crazed far

right as well as a lot of corporate money. announced after he the policy of the monetization in which like overnight he declared -- nobody seemed to know, , not even his finance secretetary or finance minister, he just appeared on tv one night and declared 80% of india's currency was no longer legal tender. what of all, regardless of the economic reasons for doing it were, which don't have to be rubbish, but no one in history had ever done something like that. like a said, it just shot the wheels off the tires off the car, the moving car. and mysteriously, it completely

devastated all other political parties, but the bjp has enhanced its wealth several times over. nermeen: you said the bjp has more money than all the otheher parties put together. so could you talk about the role of money in the elections? >> that is the thing. if you look at -- now you have to be a rich person to stand for elections. you have to have a lot of money. supporte, the corporate would mean there are certain corporations like reliance, owning 27 news channels or 27 tv channels. the combination of money from of complete control on the media, and what used to be complete control on the social media -- which has now been shaken a little bit -- but so, you know,

i mean, if i would try and predict what is going to happen in the elections, the results, which will be out on the 23rd, i would say no one is going to win. there is going to be a lot of bargaining to form a coalition government. i think it is likely to be a non-bjp government coalition. but the fact -- not amy: you go against the polls on that. >> well, the polls might be -- yes, i do go against the polls. they'rey, i don't think going to win. i just want to say that i think the fact that no one is going to win is a great victory. a great victory. because they just look like this juggernaut would crash through us and stay there for years and years. for people, other parties,

people who have fought without that kind of money, without that kind of media. i mean, i don't know how to explain it on an american tv channel, but i want to say that everything about indian elections, everything is about cost. if you came there, you would not even understand the words and the language in which the analysis is done. they would don't understand because it is all deeply caste-driven. movedt has actually against the modi government -- and this is very important because you are facing a kind of white supremacist regime. the other day when i spoke us of liberals and secular people have consistetently played down the link between the bjp and the

rss. right-winga seto-fascist cultural guild up in 1925. in the bjpjp more or less bunchs as this for limitary and -- fund just as more or less this permanent terrien function. most of the ministers s belong o the e rss. in 1925. it was set up were declared. it has always been against the indian constitution. it wants india declared a hindu republic. is against this rss, which basically controlled and run by -- they are a group.

against this, what is going to defeat them is not rahul gandhi. it is a different mobilization , the lowerr caste brackets, the dalits, what is classified as back would. it is a pretty revolutionary movement, much deeper than elections. but i won't go on because i think people would not understand here what i am saying. amy: and internationalizing of what you see, the rss, what they represent? narendra modi's relationship with president trump and what you see the comparisons are? >> well, firstly, let me say it was not only president trump. and obama came there embraced modi, macron came and embraced modi. modi has come here and embraced

trump. all of it has got to do with business deals will stop below that, the coconnection between e rss and very many alt-right groups here, there is an ideological convergence because at the center of it is the idea of supremacy. the far right groups here, very much admire the caste system as the ancient arbiter of social hierarchy. so t there is a lot of dealings anand social connection between all of that. a great admiration for the caste system, a great admiration for the fact that human beings are not equal, they were never meant to be equal come you know? so there is a convergence there. amy: we're going to go to break and come back to our discussion

and talk to you about other things a as well. you see kashmir is a possible flashpoint, a nuclear flashpoint that people should be very aware of. we're going to talk about the latest news of julian assange. says it is reopening an investigation against him. we want to talk about issues like climate change and capitalism. all of this hour, arundhati roy, the award-winning writer, author, when the booker prize in 1997 for "the god of small things."." her second novel came out in the last few years "the ministryry f utmost happiness." back with arundhati roy in a moment. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. you are one of six public intellectuals in india who criticized the arrest of wikileaks founder and editor in chief julian assange in london

last month. in a statement, the signatories of the statement called for his immediate release writing "the journalism wikileaks and its editor-in-chief stand for is a journalism of outrage. outrage against the injustices and atrocities that take place around the world, but also with an eye to factuality, substantiation, and precision. if the u.s. had charged assange and wikileaks for publishing classified material, the legal case would have been no different from charging "the new york times" with publishing the pentagon papers." amy: in sweden, prosecutors are now reopening an investigation into sexual assault allegations against wikileaks founder r juln assange and are seeking h his extradition to face the charges inin sweden. the u.s. has also seek his extradition. so this latest news that just broke today, many people feel

that sweden has been under enormous pressure to say they have reopen investigation on sexual assault and rape charges against assange so that he will also be called back to sweden and that ultimately, what he is most concerned about, is being extradited to the united states. he has said he does not want to be sent to guantanamo bay. why have you gotten involved in this case? the latest allegations today, do they concern you? >> i met assange a few years ago at the ecuadorian embassy. ofas and am admire her wikileaks. the trouble is there is a sort issues of sexual assault are separate, in my mindnd, frorom the idea of his extradition to the u.s..

thisunable to read what -- is itdnd by sweden really to try him for rape or is it because the u.s. feels it can get him extradited from sweden easier than it can from england -- from london? i don't know. i don't know. but i think it is absololutely right that if you are going to send julian assange to guantanamo bay, then you are really attacking people who publish news that the world needs to know. the charges against him, their china say he was trying to help and encourage chelsea manning to hack into the pentagon computers, which i think is a flimsy charge.

journalists are deeply concerned about this because when they are working with a source and a source says come how do i get this information to you, it is very difficult when the government says, you solicited this, when a source is trying to be protected and trying to figure out the safest way to get information they feel is critical to understanding, this case, war, iraq war, afghanistan war, state department memos. >> it is outrageous, basically. what about all of the documentss that snowden leaked? people have published them. are they going to be put into prison? what about the people whwho held snowowdon toscscape. are e they goingng to be put i o prisison? hen?e does this end teh it is a very serious step. it is not about julian.

it is not whether he is a nice man or not nice man or rape to someone or didn't. if you did, he should be it.ished for that is a separate matter from this. we ought not get into this mess -- is it okit be because you like it or don't like him? it is not about him as a person. i don't know him personally. somebody,indeed raped he should be punished for that. but that is not the same thing as w wikileaks enterprise. and that enterprise concerns us all. all l of us. tomeen: i would like to turn another issue, would you also raised in your lecture last night and that is climate change. another award-winning indian writer has written about climate change is most recent book titled "the great derangement: climate change and the unththinkable".

the encyclicals on environment, change by pope francis and the paris climate agreement. he points out several different the differences in the text running g the encyclclical doe't hesitate to "criticize the prevalent paradigmgms of our er, most of all it is fiercely critical of 'the idea of infinite or unlimited growth'." he goes on to say, "in the wake of the paris agreement, by contrast, there is not the slightest acknowledgment that something has gone wrong with our dominant paradigms. the current paradigm of perpetual growth is enshrined at the core of the text of the paris agreement." doing your lecture last night, you said that those most responsible for creating the problem, the problem of climate change "will see to it that they profit from the solution that they propose."

could you elaborate on that? me, for sog is for many years, for so many years people let's say in india have been fighting this very idea of progress, of growth, of this form of development which has resulted now in what we call jobless growth, what everybody knows to be the case -- you have nine individuals who own the same amount of wealth as the bottom 500 million. this is what infinite growth has led to come infinite growth for some people. i remember years ago i wrote an essay which ended by saying, can we leave the box and the mountains? i think that is ultimately the question. can you look at the mountains and not just calculate the mineral worth? can you

understand the mountain has much more than just the value of the minerals in it? issueis a civilization aat for people who have lived known that mountain, they know thes sustained not just people -- it is not just a question of who is getting this place, but how does, for uxite mountainbausin that sustains our population, but is meant for corporation that is given a mining contract? how much does it cost? can we store it and traded on the market? this idea that you will never question your idea of progress, you will never question the -- the of the global not

elite south and the downtrodden north. it is like what i said, the elite of the world have succeeded into outer space and they look down and say what is our water doing the rivers? there is a psychotic refusal to understand that the survival of the species is connected to the survival of the planet, you know? because this sort of progress is a kind of church now. it is not amenable. it is very difficult to know how any conversation of any real conversation can happen, which is why i said yesterday that the only real conversation that is happening is a conversation in which the language around

climate change is being militarized. because the u.n. --underneath every conflict t which appears o be a conflict betwtween a triben a tribe or a country and a climateis increasingly change, is increasingly the shrinking of resources and people collecting together to claim them and therefore, the growth of this kind of nationalistic or identity or tribal politics. amy: can you make a connection between the issue of climate change in the issue of the growing inequality in the world? certainly, it is massive in the united states. and in india, the growing inequality has increased enormously. you have this oxfam report that just came out revealing billionaire fortunes in india increased by 35% last year as the poorest remained in debt, but that cononnection, thatt lik to capitalism between the two?

capitalism is pretty clear now. that any sort of -- any sort of attempt -- i will give you very good example. like a month or two ago, the supreme court of india, based on that have been filed, said that 2 million indigenous people should be evictcted from their forestst homes with immediate effect. why? because the forest needs to be preserved as a sanctuary. yearsen for the last 25 people were fighting against projects which would decimate millions of hector's and acres of forest, nobody cared. and it was the same people that were being displaced. for progress, now it is for conservation. but it is always the same people who have to pay the price.

when you are talking about evicting 2 million of the poorest people, stripping them of everything they've ever had, there is little outrage. when the congress party announced it is going to have a scheme and which 20% of the poorest people will get a living wage, everyone has exploded. like, how can you think of doing this? it strikes at the core of unregulated capitalism. any sense of talk of equality or justice seems to just have the same effect that blasphemy has in religious societies. that is what capitalism has .ecome, a form of religion amy: we have to break again but when we come back, we would like you to share a part of your lecture last night with us, that you gave at the historic apollo theater in harlem. arundhati roy, the great writer andhas written two novels

many books of essays. her most recent, the ministry of utmost happiness" before that, "the god of small things." soon, her book "my seditious hear w will out. ♪music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. our guest for the hour is thedhati roy, the winner of booker prize for her first novel "the god of small things." her second novel, "the ministry of utmost happiness," was longlisted for that same price in 2017. a collection of her nonfiction writing titled "my seditious heart" will be out in june. last night, you gave an impassioned address at harlem's historic apollo theater. the address that you gave was called "arthur miller freedom to write lecture." you titled it "a place for literature." can you share a little of it with us? >> sure. as the ice caps melt, as oceans heat up and water tables plunge, as we rip through the delicate

web of interdependence that sustains life on earth, as our formidable intelligence leads us to breach the boundaries between humans and machines and are even more formidable hubris undermines our ability to connect the survival of our planet to our survival as a species, as we replace art with algorithms and stare into a future in which most human beings may not be needed to participate in or be renew marita for economic activity, i just such a time we have the steady hands of white supremacist in the white house, new imperialist in china and neo-nazis once again mass -- marching on the streets of europe, hindu nationalist in india, and a host of which are princes unless -- and lesser dictators to guide us into the unknown. on many of us dreamt that

another world is possible, these folks were jamming, too. and it is their dream, our nightmare, that is perilously close to being realized. capitalism gratuitous wars and sanctioned greed have jeopardized the planet and filled it with refugees. ish of the blame for this squarely on the shoulders of the government of the united states. 17 yeaears after invading afghanistan, after bombing it into the stone age with the sole aim of toppling the taliban, the u.s. government is back in talks with the very same taliban. has destroyed iraq, syria. hundreds of thousands have lost their lives to war and sanctioned. the whole region has dissented into chaos. engine cities pounded into dust. amidst the desolation and the rubble, a monstrosity called

daish, isis has been spawned. it has spread across the world, murdering people who had absolutely nothing to do with america's wars. givenhese last two years, the war it has waged an international treaties it has arbitrarily were negative on, the u.s. government perfectly fits its own definition of a rogue state. and now resorting to the same old scare tactics for the same tired falsehood, and the same old fake news about nuclear weapons, it is gearing up to bomb iran. that will be the biggest mistake it has ever made. nermeen: thank you for reading from your lecture last night at the apollo. could you say a little bit more about -- i mean, as the writer of two beautiful novels as well

as literally hundreds a and hundreds of literary nonfiction, what you see as the role of literature in this context -- you refer to in that same lecture, this context as a -- and theof idiocy other point you made about literature beingng essential, fiction being essential to saying what cannot in any other context be said? yes, i cited kashmir. i cited james baldwin who says that "and they would not believe me, precisely because they knew what i was saying was true." is -- to, i think it me, the reason -- i wonder sometimes, in this age of so much whatsapp and video and netflix and movies and living in

a country with so many people either semi literate or aliterate, why is it that certain kind of writing like say my essays and even my books now, they are translated -- nermeen: your novels. ,> translated into 51 languages many indian languages. when i go to speak and places anywhere in india, literally thousands show up. why? not because i am some superstar, but because everybody is looking to understand what is happening at this moment when really the era we think we know and understand is coming to an end. this is the simplest w way of

saying a complicated thing, you know? literature is. radicalhat the understanding now pass to come --m not thinking of climate oh, i'm a specialist in climate change,, specialist in rebel rallies, i'm a specialist on kashmir, you know, this kind of compartmentalizing is actually thating the real problem we have. now you have to understand the connection between cast and climate change and capitalism and nationalism and internationalism. and i think this is where literature and a way of grappling with history as a kind of supple there to is important.

quoteelling truths as you james baldwin saying it is easier to often tell this truth than fiction rather than nonfiction. which is your preferred way of writing, as we move into your next book coming out in june, 1000 pages of your nonfiction essays? >> well, as i said in my lecture -- apart fromple which is my preferred way, other people have their preferred forms of my writing. to me, they are both hard of my body. they are both part of the way i think. theuld only say that nonfiction that i have written has always been an urgent intervention. together, somehow when i look at it together, the urgency but together over 20 years creates a

special kind of narrative, a special kind of history. -- the nonfiction will do part two and post it on democracynow.org