07/04/19 07/04/19 [captioning made possible amy: from pacifica this i is democracy now! >> what to the slave is the fourth of july? i answer, a day that reveals to him more than all other days of t the ye, ththe gross injustice and cruely to which he is a constant victim. to him, your celebration is a sham. amy: "whwhat to the slave is the fourth of july?" frederick douglass's 1852 independence

day address performed by james earl jones. then, acclaimed writer ta-nehisi coates makes the case for reparations. >> enslavement reigned for 250 years on these shores. when it ended, this country could have extended its hallowed principles ---- life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- to all, regardless of color. but america had other principles in mind. and so, for a century after the civil war, black people were subjected to a relentless campaign of terror, a campaign that extended well into the lifetime of majority leader mcconnell. amy: ta-nehisi coates testified at an historic hearing on reparations to mark juneteenth, the anniversary of the freeing of enslaved africans in texas. actor danny glover also testified. all that and more coming up.p. this i is democracy now!, demomocracynow.org, ththe war and pee repopo.

i'm amy goodman.n. totoday, in this special broadcast, we begin with the words of frederick douglass. born into slavery around 1818, douglalass became a key leader of the abolitionist movement. on july 5, 1852, in rochester, new york, he gave one of his most famous speeches, "what to the slave is the fourth of july?" he was addressing the rochester ladies' anti-slavery society. this is james earl jones reading the historic address during a performance of howard zinn's voices of a people's history of the united states. >> frederick douglass, once a slave, became a brilliant and powerful leader of the anti-slavery movement. in 1852, he was asked to speak in celebration of the fourth of july. frederick douglass: [read by james earl jones] fellow-citizens, pardon me, allow me to ask,

why am i called upon to speak here today? what have i, or those i represent, to do with your national independence? are the great principles of political freedom and of natural justice, embodied in that declaration ofof independencn, extended to us? and am i, therefore, called upon to bring our humble offeringng to the e national al, and to confefess the benefits and exess s devo graratitude for the blessings resulting from your independence to us? i am not included within the pale of this glorious anniversary! your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between us. the blessings in which you this day rejoice are not enjoyed in common.

the rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity, and independence bequeathed by your fathers is shared by you, not by me. the sunlight that brought life and healing to you has brought stripes and death to me. this fourth of july is yours, not mine. you may rejoice, i must mourn. to drag a man in fetters into the grand illuminated temple of liberty, and call upon him to join you in joyous anthems, were inhuman mockery and sacrilegious irony. do you mean, citizens, to mock me, by asking me to speak today? what, to the american slave, is your fourth of july?

i answer -- a day that reveals to him, more thahan all other days of the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is a constant victim. to him, your celebration is a sham. yoyour boasted liberty, an unholy license. your national greatness, swelling vanity. your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless. your denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence. your shohouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery. your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy --

a thin veil to cover up crimes that would disgrace a nation of savages. there is not a nation of the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of these united states at this very hour. at a timime like this, scorching g irony, not convnvincing argument, is needed. o! had i the ability, and could reach the nation's ear, i would, today, pour forth a stream, a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm, and sternrn rebuke.e. for it is not light that is needed, but fire. it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. we need the storm, the whirlwind, the earthquake.

the feeling of the nation must be quickened. the conscience of the nation must be roused. the propririety of the nation must be startled. the hyhycrisy of t the natioin must be exexposed. and the crimes against god and man must be proclaimed and denounced. amy: that was james earl jones, reading the words of frederick douglass. we turn now from that famous address in 1852 to more recent history, the june hearing on reparations for slavery -- the first ofof its kind in over a decade. a house judiciary subcommittee held the hearing as lawmakers consider a bill titled the "commission to study and develop reparation proposals for african-americans act." the bill was introduced by democratic congressmember sheila jackson lee of houston, after former congressmember john conyers

had championed the bill for decades without success. the hearing took p place on juneteenth, the day that commemorates june 19, 1865, when enslaved africans in galveston, texas, finally learned that the emancipation proclamation had abolished slavery. this year also marks the 400th anniversary of the trans-atlantic slave trade. ahead of the hearing, senate majority leader mitch mcconnell was asked by spectrum reporter eva mckend whether the government should issue a public apology for slavery. this was mcconnell''s response. >> i don't think reparations for something that happened 150 years ago, for whom none of us currently living are responsible, is a good idea. we've, you know, tried to deal with our original sin of slavery by fighting a civil war, by passing landmark civil rights legislation. we've elected an african-american president.

i think we're always a work in progress in this country, but no one currently alive was responsible for that. and i don't think we should be trying to figure out how to compensate for it. first of all, it would be pretty hard to figure out who to compensate. we've had waves of immigrants, as well, who have come to the country and experiencedd dramatic disiscrimination of one kind or another. so, no, i don't think reparations are a good idea. amy: that was senate majority leader mitch mcconnell. well, award-winning author ta-nehisi coates testifieied at the historic congressional reparations hearing and took direct aim at mcconnell. >> yesterday, when asked about reparations, senate majority leader mitch mcconnell offered a familiar reply -- america should not be held liable for something that happened 150 years ago, since none of us currently alive are responsible.

this rebuttal proffers a strange theory of governance, that american accounts are somehow bound by the lifetime of its generations. but well into this century, the united states was still paying out pensions to the heirs of civil war soldiers. we honor treaties that date back some 200 years, despite no one being alive who signed those treaties. many of us would love to be taxed for the things we are solely and individually responsible for. but we are american citizens, and thus bound to a collective enterprise that extends beyond our individual and personal reach. it would seem ridiculous to dispute invocations of the founders, or the greatest generation, on the basis of a lack of membership in either group. we recognize our lineage as a generational trust, as inheritance. and the real dilemma posed by reparations is just that -- a dilemma of inheritance.

it is impossible to imagine america without the inheritance of slavery. as historian ed baptist has written, enslavement "shaped every crucial aspect of the economy and politics" of america, so that by 1836 more than $600 million, or almost half of the economic activity in the united states, derived directly or indirectly from the cotton produced by the million-odd slaves. by the time the enslaved were emancipated, they comprised the largest single asset in america -- $3 billion in 1860 dollars, more than all the other assets in the country combined. the method of cultivating this asset was neither gentle cajoling nor persuasion, but torture, rape, and child trafficking. enslavement reigned for 250 years on these shores. when it ended, this country could have extended its hallowed principles ---- life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness -- to all, regardless of color.

but america had other principles in mind. and so, for a century after the civil war, black people were subjected to a relentless campaign of terror, a campaign that extended well into the lifetime of majority leader mcconnell. it is tempting to divorce this modern campaign of terror, of plunder, from e enslavement. but t the logic of enslavement, of white supremacy, respects no such borders, and the god of bondage was lustful and begat many heirs -- coup d'états and convict leasing, vagrancy laws and dedebt peonag, redlining and racist gi bills, poll taxes and state-sponsored terrorism. we grant that mr. mcconnell was not alive for appomattox. but he was alive for the electrocution of george stinney. he was alive for the blinding of isaac woodard. he was alive to witness kleptocracy in his native alabama

and a regime premised on electoral theft. majority leader mcconnell cited civil rights legislation yesterday, as well he should, because he was alive to witness the harassment, jailing, and betrayal of those responsible for that legislation by a government sworn to protect them. he was alive for the redlining of chicago and the looting of black homeowners of some $4 billion. victims of that plunder are very much alive today. i am sure they'd love a word with the majority leleader. what they know, what this committee must know, is t that while emancipation dead-bolted the door against the e bandits of america jim crow wededged the windows wide open. and that is the thing about senator mcconnell's "something." it was 150 years ago. and it was right now. the typical black family in this country has one-tenth the wealth of the typical white family. black women die in childbirth at four times the rate of white women.

and there is, of course, the shame of this land of the free boboasting the largest prison population on the planet, of which the descendants of the enslaved make up the largest share. the matter of reparations is one of making amends and direct redress, but it is also a question of citizenship. in h.r. 40, this body has a chance to both make good on its 2009 apology for enslavement and reject fair-weather patriotism, to say that a natition is both its credits and its debits, that if thomas jefferson matters, so does sally hemings, thatat if d-day matters, so does black wall street, that if valley forge matters, so does fort pillow, because the e question really is not whetether we will be tieied to the somethings of our past, but whether we are courageous enough to be tied to the whole of them. thank you. amy: that was award-winning author ta-nehisi coates

testifying before the house judiciary subcommittee in june. his seminal 2014 essay "the case for reparations" helped spur new calls to make amends for slavery. he will join us in minute. bubut first, actor and civil rights activist danny glover also testified at the hearing. >> thank you, mr. coates. it is not often that you hear the words of a young man and they enliven your emotional memory as he just did in this moment. thank you so much. i am deeply honored to be here today offering my testimony at this historic meeting about the reckoning of a crime against humanity that is foundational to the development of democracy and material well-being in this country. a national reparations policy is a moral, democratic,

and economic imperative. i sit here as the great-grandson of a former slave, mary brorown, who was freed by the emancipatation proclamation on january 1, 1863. i had the fortune of meeting her as a small child. i also sit here as the grandson of rufus huntleyey. my maternal grandparents were both born before plessy versus ferguson supreme court decisionon in 189. and for a significant portion of their lives, they worked as sharecrcroppers in geororga

until they were able to save enough money to purchase a small farm. despite much progress over the centuries, this hearing is yet another important step in the long and heroic struggle of african-americans to secure reparations for the damages inflicted by enslavement in post-emancipation and racial exclusionary policy. many of ththe organizations who are present today at this hearing are amongst the historical contributors to the present national discourse, congressional deliberations, and democratic party presidential campaign policy discussions about reparations. we also are indebted to the work of congressman john conyers

for shepherdingg this legislation,, the adoption of h.r. 40 can be a signature legislative achievement, especially within the context of the united nation decades of people of african dissent. we should also note that the common market nations and the caribbean community for reparations commission, chchaired by professor sir hilary buckles who is your with u us today, has exercised a leadership role from which we as a nation can benefit. our sustained direct effecectie policy actions in full collaboration with a african-americans of progressive citizens allies is the ultimate proof of the sincerity of our national commitment to repair the damages of the legally

and often religiously sanctioned inhumanity of slavery, segregation, and current structural racism the lends to democratic participation and material advancement of african-americans and of our country's progress as a begin of justice and equality. i close with still relevant words of dr. martin luther king, jr., "why is the issue of e equality still so far from solution in america? a nation which professes itself to be democratic, inventive, hospitable, and new ideas, rich, productive, and ultimately powerful. justice for black people will not flow ininto society merely from court decisions,

nor from fountains of political oratory, nor will a few token changes quell all of the contemptuous yearnings of millions of disadvantaged black people. white america must recognize justice for black people cannot be achieved without radical changes in the structure of our society. the comfortable, the entrenched, the privileged cannot continue to tremble at the prospect of change in the status quo." thank you. amy: that was danny glover. economist julianne malveaux also spoke. >> a journalist said lynching was the first example of white supremacy because it was a tool of terrorism. it dampened the ability of african american people to participate in the vibrant entrepreneurship of the late 19th and early 20th century with a chilling message

that our economists said could be punished by the roque. victctim be summarized in three ways. number one, we were denied the ability to participate in our nanation's econonomic grow. the homestead act of 1862 did not include formally enslaved people. more than 10% of the continental u.s. land was destroyed it to recent immigrants from europe, but not black folks. so the 40 acres and a mule was given to somebody else, not us. these folks s were able not ony to get land, than to get grants from the federal government to develop the land. meanwhile, a african americican people were denied the right to these wealth transfers. we were denied the right to accumulate. the attached of the paper and mentioned talks about how our accumulation was essentially stymied by lynching. the first lynching that ida b wells examined

was when a b black man had the nerve to open up a grocery store near a white man's store. so the white man had the brother lynched. had three people lynched because of economics. this is how black people have been suppressed in their ability to accumulate. full said, oklahoma, wilmington, north carolina: long stories that i have time to talk about. i want you to look at the stories i submitted and think of the many ways black people tried to participate, tried to encourage, tried to be american. simply try to be economic actors, were suppressed because they had the nerve to think. my brothers over here is say, their american dream, it is some peoples's american nightmare. let's be clear. number three, public policy hostility. public policy hostility to black people. the g.i. bill legislation truncated opportunities

to african-american veterans, federal housing administration reinforced redlining and segregation as an official policy of the f federal government. people talk about racists as they are individuals. the fact that they're not individuals, they are individuals who are buttressed by the federal government and legislation. let me simply say, h.r. 40 is important. more importantly, as you my brothers and sisters on this congress go forward, may there be a racialal justice audit of any new legislation that has economic applications. thank you. amy: that was economist julianne malveaux. when we e come b back, award-wig author ta-a-nehisi coates joins us for the rest of the hour.  [music break]

amy: the first native american poet laureate. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report.

i'm amy goodman, with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: as we continue to talk about the call for slavery reparations, we spend the rest of the hour with ta-a-nehisi coates, who testified at wednenesday's hearing. he's the author of several books, including "we were eight years in power: an american tragedy." he is also the author of "between the world and me," for which he received the 2015 national book award for nonfiction. he is now a writer-in-residence at new york university. amy: ta-nehisi's seminal 2014 essay, "the case for reparations," helped spur new calls to make amends for slavery. today he joins u us for the hou. ta-nehisi, thanks so much for being with us. can you talk about the origins of this hearing, the first in a dozen years, and the bill that is being considered and whatat you hope toto come of this? did you u ever dreream that ts is what wowould come of -- wewell, it's beenen going on for dedecades, but five years ago you intensified the discussion

with your atlantic piece on reparations? >> yeah, it's been -- i have to be honest, it's been absolutely fascininating to watch.. i think the thing that people need understand about the fight for reparations is precisely how old it is. i mean, this goes back to belinda royall, who sued the estate of isaac royall back in, you know, postcololonial times,, after the american revolution. up through callie house in the 19th century, into james forman sr., who was a leader at sncc, making his demand for reparations. up through n'cobra and people like prorofessoror charles ogle. so this is a long, long fight. and when i published "the case for reparations" in the atlantic, my hope was to just make my entry into that fight. i didn't expect it to quite get here. i think this is definitely progress.

i dodon't think this is anywhee near the end goal, but i think yesterday was progress. nermeen: well, ta-nehisi, you made, of course, a number of extremely powerful remarks during your testimony, among which you said -- "it is impossible to imagine america without the inheritance of slavery." so for our international audience and others who aren't quite as familiar with this history, could you explain what you mean by that -- it's impossible to understand america without this inheritance? >> well, sure. you know, the two great crimes in american history isis obvioiously the destructn of this country's native american -- the near destruction, i shouould say, not the destruction n -- the near destrtruction of this country's native amemerican population,, the theft ofof their l land, and on to wowork that land was brought in native africans into this coununtry beginning in 1619. those twin processes profoundly altered the shape of the world

and made this country possible. obviously,y, first of f all, yoyou know, the land on which america and americans currently reside was the land of native americans,s, but the people brought in to break that land just transformed it. the profits deririved fromom sly are more extreme than i think are commonly acknowledged. as i said yesterday,y, in 1860, the combined worth of the 4 million enslaved black people in this country was some $ $3 billioion, nearlyly $75 b billion in today's shshare of dollars. cotton, in 1860, was this country's largest export -- not t just its largest export, it was the majority of exports out of this country. so from a financial perspectivi, just the economicscs of it, itit's absolulutely impossible to imagine a america without enslavement. the onset of the c civil wara, the greaeatest preponderance, the greatest popululation per capita of millioionaires

and multimilillionaires in this cocountry was in the mississippipi river r valley. it wasasn't inin boston, wasn'n chicago,o, wasn't in new y yo. the e richest people in this country were slaveholders. most of our eaearliest presidens were slavehoholders. anand the fafact that they w e presidents is not incidedental to the fact that they -- to their slaveholding.g. that was how they built their wealth. that was howow thomamas jeffern built t his wealth. that was how george washington built his wealth. individual slalaves we the e equivalent of,f, say, owning a home e today. they were people, but turned into objects of extreme wealth. so just t from the ecomimic perspective, therere's at. anand justst forgive me for extetending a a little bi, but there's s also the fact of what t america actually is culturalllly. our greatest export today isis our entertainment anit i is our cuculture. it is impossible to imimagine americanan culture without jaz, without the blues, without hip-hop. it's impopossible t to imaginee american cinema without, r regrettably, "birth of a nation." it's impossible to imimagine amamericanan literature

at ts popoint without james baldwin, without toni morrison. all of these are the pririmary, sendarary, tertiary fruits of slavery. anand so, if you stripip slavy out ofof ameririca, if you strip black people out of america, you really don't have an americaca. amy: ta-nehisi c coatetes, i wanted to to o a clip of f yu speaking at this historic hearing yesterday before the house judiciary committee chair, answering chairman jerry nadler. >> it's been saiaid, i think, or alluded t to, repeatedly throughout this conversation, that somehow wealthy african americans are immune to these effects. but in addition to the wealth gap that's cited, one thing that folks should keep in mind is that, quote-unquote, "wealthy african americans" are not the equivalent of "wealthy white americans" in this country. the average -- the average african-american family in this cocountry making $10100,000, which is, you know, decent money, actually lives in the same kind of neighborhood that the average white famamily making $35,000 a year liveves i.

that is tototally tied to the legacy of enslavement and jim crow and the input and the idea in the mind that white people and black people are somehow deservining of different things. if i injure you, the injury persists even after i actually commit the act.t. if i stab you, you may suffer complications long after that i initial actuaual stabbi. if i shoot you, you may suffer complications long after that initialal shootining. that's the case with african americans. there are people well within the living memory of this country that are still suffering from the after-effects of that. >> thank you very much. amy: so, that is ta-nehisi coates speaking at the hearining. and with that, i want to go back to just a clip of what the senate majority leader mitch mcconnell said. >> i don't think reparations for something that happened 150 years ago, for whom none of us currently living are responsible,

is a good idea. we've, you know, tried to deal with our original sin of slavery by fighting a civil war, by passing landmark civil rights legislation. we've elected an african-american president. amy: so, i want to point out that the question that he was asked about reparations, about apologies for slavery, was asked by a yououng african-amererican reporteter named eva mckend of spectrum.. his comment is being heard everywhere, but the reporter herself is only being talked about on democracy now! and the e signicicance of thth, ta-n-nehisi? and then, if y you can talk about the bill that's being considered? i i mean, you u yourself said, when you started your historic pipiece five years a ago on "the cacase for reparations" you yourself weren't convinced. >> yeah. and, first of all, i want to thank you for shouting out that reporter.

that actually has meaning, because you u need a black k reporter t there in the firstst place toctctually ask ththe question to set all of this in motion. so that's s true. no, no, nono. i, you k know -- andnd to be h t with you, for instance, the previous answer i just gave you on, a, the economics of enslavement and its relationship to this cocountry, i would not have been able to give you that answer. i think -- so,o, when i sttedd in 201014, i actually was, atat that poin, for reparations,s, but you're referriring back toto somethingng i wrote in 22 when i was a against. i wouldn't t have been able to givive you that answer. i didn''t have thahat level of knowlededge. and bebeyond that, i didn't hae the lelevel of knowlededge on how it persisted. i meanan, i had a vague sensee of segregatition, jim crow, etc., in the 10000 years after, but i i didn't knknow abouout redlining,g, not in that degree of detail. and i didn't t know how thiss extraction, as i call l it, of wealth frfrom the african-amererican communiy laundered through the state into the white community through reredlining,

through the fha loan program, through the gi bill. i jujust didn't have knowlwlee of thahat. and ononce i saw that, it's s l, wow, this is a persistent patattern of extractction that needs a a really,y, realally radicical answer. at thahat point, reparatations e total, total sense to me. but i i will adddd that it mae sense to plenty of people long before it made sense to me. nermeen: a and, ta-nehisi, cocould you talk about - -- i mean, hohow do you think conversations about reparations in the american public sphere have changed since the publication ofof your atlanticic piece? >> you know, i'm not -- you know, that pieiece got a lot of attention. i'm not totally convinced that that's why this is h happening right now. a, i i just, you kw,w, jujust really want to say again that people have been fighting this batattle for a a long ti, and soso it's like you put drops of water in a glass and eventually, you knknow, the glglass tips over, and you see someme sort of larger effect. i was building on the work --

you know, when i published in 2014, only, whwhat, 10, 15 y years ago, there e had beenen randall robinsonon's "the debt" you know, as i mentioned earlier, the efforts of charles ogletree. so there have e been allll of te lilittle sort of effortsts that didn't get the same degree e of coverage. that's the first thing. and i also thinknk havin yoyour fir b black presidedent followed up by, you know, someone who o i've referred to as your fifirst white presididt hahas had a a emendously radicalizing effect onon a lot of f people. amy: can you talk about -- i mean, this discussion about reparations, immediately, last night, on the talk shows, "what are they talking about? giving checks? who exactly would be involved? who would get the money? how would this be determined?" go back to when abraham lincoln signeded a bilill emancipatingng enslaved people, the slave owners around washington, d.c., being g given rereparatis for each enslaved person that they freed.

>> right.. amy: w what was it, $300 a perso >> right. i can't remember the number, but, yeah, you're exactly correct. and in fact, linincoln offered that to o several -- this idea of -- it was called "compensated emancipation" at the time. anand he offered it t to severaf the e border slave states -- delaware, i believe,e, marylan, kentucky also. that was a plan to compensate the actual slaveholders. and i should sayay, thatat's a obobal patternrn throughout hisistory. the country of haiti, fofor having the temererity to a actually liberate itselff from enslavement, wawas forceded to payy repaparations s to francnc, the country that had actually enslaved the people there. so this is a global pattern with people enslaved. it is only for questions of power that we find ourselves ableleo countenanance the idea that peoeople who have done the enslaving should have been compensated, and that was fine, and not j jut pepeople who w were enslaved, but people whoho were suffering the e effects of that afteterwa, should not be compensated. amy: so, talk about what are the possible -- >> i should -- i'm sorry, can i just add ---- can i add just one quick thing also, amy?

this whole thing about who should get a check, and should we cut checks, you know, i understand those questions. that's great. those peoplele should supportt h.r. 40, tugugh, becaususe that's what h.r. 4040 does. it tries to get that figured out and get thatat math figured out and fifigure out the best way to do it. but if we don't actually have a s study, we can't t actually answer those questitions. you can't ask a doctor to make a diagnosis before there's an actual examination. those peopople who have all of those questions should support h.r. 40. they should be its biggesest supporters. nermeen: ta-nenehisi coates, i want to go back to some of the enduring legacy of slavery in the u.s. the house budget committee held a hearing on poverty in amamerica, and reverend dr. william barber, coco-chairf the pooror people's cacampaign, cacalled for a "moral budget," framing ththe epidemic of povery as a "moral crisis." >> it is tragic in a society where our first constitututional duty

is to establish justice and promote the generaral welfare - the general l welfare -- that we will allow the injustice of poverty -- 43.5% of people are poverty and low-wealth, and people here who could teach this society -- and we w would walk away from our constitutional values and walk away from our spiritual values that tell us that it is dangerous for a nation not to lift up the poor. amy: reverend dr. barber is wring a sash that says "jesus was a poor man." and i just want to point out, so you are having this hearing on juneteenth and the budgdget committee is having this historic hearing on juneteentnth. and you're actually speaking at exactly the same time. that heaearing culminated three days of the poor people's campaign -- of course, picked up from the lasast year of dr. martin luther king's life

as he led the poor people'e's campaign. democracy nonow! was there on monday at the trinity university when dr. b barber and dr. liz thhaharis questioned nine presidential candidates about this issue of the connections of poverty and racism, saying this issue of extreme poverty was not raised once in one of the presidential debates of 2016. can you talk about this trajectory from slavery to what we're describing today? >> yeah.h. i mean, again, you know, i think, in this moment, one of the reasons why this sort of -- you know, all of these questions that may have been off of the table i in 2016 or o off the table in 2008, it's not that people weren't raising them. you know, it's not that people weren't making the point. but i just think, you know, in reaction to what's going on to t this couny,y, in this cocountry right nonow, people are just mumuch, much morore open, you knknow?

and in terms of poverty and race in this country, again, you know, one of the things that i really, really wanted to stress is t the level o of povertry spspecifically that you see in the a african-american commmmunity is not accidentat. it's not accidental. ththis is part of ththe proce. the prprocess of enslavement involves stealing somethihing from somomeone. it involves tataking something frfrom someone. jim crow was theft. first t and forestst, it was t theft. if i tax youou or if tell you yu have to be loyal to thisis couny and pledge fealty toto its law, but then i don't give you the same degree of protection, i don't give y you the same accs toto resourcrces thatat i give to another groroup of people, i haveve effectitively stolen something from you. i have stolen your tax money. i haveve stolen your fealty. i have stolen your loyalty. so when the ststate of mississippi, for inststance, taxes blblack people and then builds one facilility for education and another for r- one facility foror education fofor whiteses

and then an inferior facilility for blacks, ththat's theft. that's theft. ifif i buildld a public pool sym and then tell you you can't use that public c pool sysystem, that's theft.t. and so that is the long history of this country that doesn't end, again, conservatively, until 1968.. and so there are p people who ae very, very much alive who have e experienced that w a are sufriring the after-effects and effects of t that. and that's whwhat, you know, as far as i'm concerned, the whole movemement arouound reparatations is abo. anand i suspect -- i didn'n't r dr. reverendnd barber'r's comme, but i suspect t there's quitie a bit t of overlap thehere, t. nermeen: well, i wanant to ask, ta-nehisi, about what may be a changing perception of the position that the african-american community in thehe u.s. is in, and a possible chanange n what ought to be done about t i. a recent sururvey by thassosociated preress found that 52% of americans believe the government doesn't put enough resources

into improving the conditions of african americans, but only 30% think the government is obliged to compensate for past racial discrimination. yo r response to thahat and the distinction between the two? >> i think people -- again, i think people are -- you know, i said this yesterday. i think people are very, very uncomfortable when we start talking about the things in america's past that do not crcrit u us. again, we have no problem at all taking credit for the thingsgs that people who o are no longer herere, who were in our past -- we have no problem taking credit for ththeir effor. you knowow, you take somebody lilike mitch mcconnell,, who doeses not want to be responsible e for enslavement ththat happened 15150 years ago, but yet still l wants the e rit to opeperate his businesss or operarate his careerr in a a building

that was built by enslaved people. anand so we have no proboblem taking the credidit, the benefits for what was done in our past. but t when you startrt talking to people about actualally paying that bak or actually y some sort of evennesess around that, you knknow, a lot of discomfort comes up. i understand that. i would d like to also takee ly m my paycheck and not hahave to pay my bills. i would likeke that, too. that would be great, you know?? but i think if this idea of patriotism m ancititizenship is to mean anything, you knknow, yoyou can't, as i , be a faiair-weather frfriend toto your coununtry. you can't t dedede that yourur t only matters, you know, that y you want to invoke your country as a land of the free when you wanant to go ininvade iraq, foror instancnce, and then when you're being called to be responsible for what made it possible for that country to be called "land of the e fre" in the firstst place,, to act like you u n't owe ybybody anythihing

or you're notot part ofof it, especially, as i said yestererd, when a lot o of this happepend inin your owown lifetime.. it isn't the past. it happened whilile you were alive. mitch mcconnell was 26 years old by the time e the voting rightsts act was pasassed. you know, so this is very well withthin the lifetime of living people todayay. amy: i want to go to coleman hughes, the columnist for quilillette, undergraduate at columbia university,, who spoke out against reparations. >> i understand d that reparatis are e about what people e are o, regardless of how well they're doing. i understand that. but the people who are owed for slavery are no longer here, and we are not entitled to collect on their r debts. reparations, by y definition, are only given to victims. so the moment you give me reparations, you've made me into a victim without my consent. amy: ta-nehisi coates, can you respond to coleman hughehes, who testified at the samee hearing g that you led off?

>> yeah, i mean, i think the testimony was that one should not receive payment that would properly be due to the enslaved. bubut this country is, to this very day, receiving papayment that wasas due to its s enslav. that's the waway inheritance workrks in this country, however one might feel about that. if i assemble a a mass of mone, i i have thehe right to pasass that on to my kid. my k kid has the right to do whatatever and then pass it on to their kid.. and so there is somemething fundamentally injust if i have secured that money by taking it from one group, and thenen i pass that money on to my kid. my kid, by the w, , continueues contininues -- to do injustice toto the descendants of that other grouo, and we're allowed to continually collect. i don't want to fallll into this trap, and i really, really tried to make this clear yesterdayay. this didn't t end with enslavent.

reparations isn't just about enslavement. there e s the 250 years of enslavement, that pereriod of theft. after that, there was 100 years of terror, that peperiod of the. and, you know,w, i would a arg, facact, ouour present system of masass incarceration emerges riright out of that. and so, you know, this nototion that a nation somehow w only -- especially when we're talking about its damage, that it only l lasts through the lifetime of i its present geneneration is clearly ridiculous.s. the ststate itself wouldld fal apart if t that were true, if allll of our r treaties were b broken whenen this gegeneration died, if all of f our taxes and responsibilities. if we sasaid to pensionnaires, you know, "we wiwill no longer p pay yo, because the pepeople that made the decisions about those wars are no longer alive," weouould he a a huge problem. as i said yesterdaday, to this very day, oror at least, i shohould say, as recently as 2017, we w were paying pensions to the heirs of civil war widows. i mean, this is tremendous

that we would recocognize our ties to the e past when it t comes to certatain ths but not other things.. amy: ta-nehisi coates, we have to break. and i also want to point out ta-nehisi is speaking to us from washington, d.c., where he testified yesterday, and he's speaking in front of an image of the capitol, whwhich was builtt by enslaved people. ta-nehehisi coates, writer-in-residence at new york university, author of a number of books, including "we were eight y yeas in powerer: an american tragedy" that includes his "case against reparations" -- his "case for reparations." we''ll be back witith ta-nehii inin a minute.  [mumusic break]

amy: this is democracy nowow! i'm amamy goodman, wiwith nermeen shaikh. nermeen: democratic presidential contender joe biden is under fire for fondndly reminisiscing about hihis "civil" " relationp wiwith segregagationist senats t the 1970's d 198080's. speaking at a fundraiser at the carlyle hotel in new york city tuesday night, biden exexpressed nostalgigia for his relationship with the late democratic pro-segregation senatotors james eastland of mississippipi and herman talmadge of georgia.

biden reportedly said ---- "i was in a caucus with james o. eastland. he never called me 'boy.' he called me 'son'," biden said. amy: biden went on to say -- "a guy like herman talmadge, one of the meanest guys i ever knew, you go down the list of all these guys. well, guess what? at least there was some civility. we got things done." biden was widely criticized by other democratic presidential contenders. he was asksked on wednesday if he would apolologize.e. >> are you going to o apologiz, like cory booker has called for? >> apologizeze for what? >> cory booker has called for it. he's asking you to apologize. >> cory should apologize. he knows better. there's not a racist bone in my body. i've been involved in civil rights my whole career, period, period, peririod. nermeen: biden spoke after senator cory booker had issusued a statement readading -- "vice president t biden's relationships with proud segregationists are not the model for how we make america a safer and more inclusive place for black people, and for everyone.

frankly, i'm disappointed that he hasn't issued an immediate apology for the pain his words are dredging up for many americans. he should," booker said. amy: other candidates also weighed in. senator bernie sanders tweeted -- "i agree with cory booker. this is especially true at a time when the trump administration is trying to divide us up with its racist appeals." new york mayor bill de blasio posted a photo of his family on twitter and wrote -- "it's 2019 & @joebiden is longing for the good old days of 'civility' typified by james eastland. eastland thought my multiracial family should be illegal & that whites were entitled to 'the pursuit of dead [n-words]." senator kamala harris said -- "yes, it concerns me deeply. if those men had their way, i would not be in the united states senate." senator elizabeth warren said -- "i'm not here to criticize other democrats, but it's never ok to celebrate segregationists. never." ta-nehisi coates, your thoughts? >> i mean, it's just more of the same.

it's jujust more e of the sam. i mean, you know, joe biden says he's been - -- amy: should biden apologize? >> i don't -- i mean, joe biden shouldn't be president. you u know? you know, obviously, i don't think i'm breaking any news here. you know, if he ends up being the nominee, better him than trump,p, but i ththink that's a really, rereally low s standard. i think when you have somebody who is celelebrating theieir relationship, the ability of a person who saw no problem depriving an entire populationn of african americans inin their state of the right to o vote, ththe right to participate as american citizensns, the fact that thatat person was polite to them? i mean, it's nice that eastland never called -- or talmadge, whoever it was -- never called joe biden "boy." it's nicece that joe biden hahad that privilege. but the fact of the matter is, joe biden owes h his very presee in the race right now to thehe first black presidede, toto barack obamama.

and if it were u up to eastlan, and if i it were up to talmadg, barack o obama would not o ony not t be in the white e house, he actually would not t exist. and so i donon't know what is going on in your brain where you decide to celebrate the fact these pepeople were polite. they could afford toto be polie becaususe the major opoppositn in their state, that being african americans, was effectively, at thatat tim, in their time,e, through h most of their r care, wiped out t of the popolitical ococess and erased as an e electorate. you knknow, joe biden sasays tt he's s been involved with civil rights his entire career. it's worth remembering joe biden opposed bubusing and bragged about it,, you know, in the 1970's. joe e biden is on the recordrd as being to the e right of actually the new demomocrats in the 199990's on t the issue of masass incaeratation, wanted morore people sentenced to the death penalty, wanted more jails. and so, you know, i'm not surprised.

i mean, this iss whwho joe biden is.. you know, there'e's that sayayi- when somomebody ows youu whwho they arere, believe the. this is s who joe biden is.. nermeeeen: well, ta-nehisi, what about your assessment of the other candidates in the democratic presidential field? right after your -- >> y'all trying to get me a again, huh? nermeen: after your piece was published in the atlantic -- >> we did this befefore! nermeen: you met with elizabeth warren. >> i did, yes. i did.d. nermrmeen: can you talk about that? >> um, no. no, not this time. amy: but, ta-nehisi, what are you paying particular attention to with these candididates? i mean, it w was interesesting yesterday after biden made his comments to donors on tuesday night and said, you know, "eastland didn't call me 'boy,' he called me 'son.'" now, again, senator eastland, who talked about afrfrican americans as the inferior race, was called "the voice of the white south."

yes, as you pointed out, obviously, he didn't call him "boy." joe biden is white. but your -- the first two people to speak out, as far as i could tell, were, first, cory booker -- and then he referred to cory immediately as cory and d said cory should apologie to him, jojoe biden -- and then, asas well, you hadad kamala harris speaking out, the african-american senator from california. and then, of course, warren and biden -- rather, wawarren and bernie sanders and de blasio. but what are you looking for in these candidates, the ststands you want to see them taking? >> i think i would like to see somebody -- listen, it's understandable where a large e portion of this coununtry is. they want to see somebody who can beat trump. i get thatat. and d there is, you know, a feelining,

i i think, a among cerertain pe that joe biden can out-white-e-man donald trum. i'm not convinced of that. i don't think anybody can out-whwhite-man dodonald trum. i hope that what we'll see eventually is something more than "i can beat donald trump." like, , "i can beat donald trum" should b be the floooor. i get ththat beatiting donald tp is e extremely, extremely important. i get that. bubut i just hopope thathaha's the floor r and not the e ceil. nermeen: well, one of the leading contendersrs is senator bernie sanders in the 2020 upupcoming election. so i'd like to go to him being questioned about the issue of reparations by the view's sunny hostin earlier this year. >> i happen to believe that at a time of tremendous disparity -- the wealth gap, for example, between the white community and the black commununity is like 10 to 1. health disparitieses are terrible. environmental disparities are terrible. flint, michigan, comes to mind. so i think w what we have got to do

is pay attention to distressed communities, black communities, latino communities and white communities, all over this country. and as president, i pledge to do that. >> why not -- why support reparations then? >> well, what do you mean by "reparations"? >> by reparations for slave descenendants. >> i know, but what does that mean exactly? >> money. >> well, i think that right now our job is to address the crises facing g the americn people in our communities. and i think there are better ways to do o that than just writing out a check. nermeen: so that's senator bernie sanders. your resesponse, ta-nehisi, to his pososition on reparation? >> well, i think i should say before i say that, my u understanding is that senar sanders now supports h.r. 40.. i think that's where we are now. so i'm obviously pretty pleased about that. you know, listen. when we had this dust-up a few years ago, what i was repeatedly told was,

you know, it's not class oror race, it's both. and i i agree. so i think allll of the things ththat bernie sanders just lisid about paying attention to distresessed communitiess should be done. and we should also have reparations. so i don't see those two things as in conflict. it's not clclear to me why both can't t be on the agagenda. in facact, it was never cleaer to me why both can't be on e agagenda, why one e can't t associatae themselves with the massive gaps in the wealth, thatat don't just exist i in the rirican-americanan communit, bubut exist in commumunities across the countntry, and atat the same time recognie that there''s somethining specic about the gap in the afrirican-american communinity thatat's tied to the e specifiy ofof american history. but, you know,w, as i said, i'i'm happy senator sasanders now supports h.r. 40.. i think that's progogress. amy: and finalally, where does the bibill go from here? and talk about even its name, h.r. 40, where it comes from. >> yeah. i mean, obviously, it comes from the field order given by general sherman, the whole 40 acres and a mule.

this is a reference back to that. i don't know where this goes. i don't know where t this goes. i'm shocked we're here. i've said ththat repeatedly. i'm surprised wewe're even her. i am a writer and a journalist, you know, soonon-to-be novovel. those are my preococcupations. that's my dispopotion. i'm not a very good prognosticator. i would not hahave told you that you w would have had a a black president in 2008. i would not have told d you tht there e would have been hearins on t the house floor on r reparations, on h.r. 40. i would d not have p predicteded any of that. so i don't know where we go. i i think, youou know, in my m, i trtry not to get too higigh and try not to get too low, as it's said. in my mind, this is still a generational struggle. and that's hohow i'm seeingng . i expect that t generationons after r i'm gone will continue to fight this battle because it''s alalways been a generarational struggle. amamy: well, ta-nehisisi coat, we w want to thank you for being with us,

writer-in-residence at new york university, author of a number of books, including "we were eight years in power: an american tragedy," "between the world and me," and his upcoming book, a novel, "the water dancer." i'm amy goodman, with nermeen shaikh. thanks so much for joining us. [captioning made possible

♪ ♪ hello and a very warm welcome to "nhk newsline." it's 9:00 a.m. on friday in tokyo. i'm miki yamamoto. we begin in southern california which has been hit by the strongest earthquake in two decades. the u.s. geological surveyy say the magnitude 6.2 quake struck thursday morning. and t the local fire departments reporting multiple injuries. the u.s. gs says the quake was