11/21/19 11/21/19 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy y now! >> was there a quiuid pro quo? previouslytified wiwith regard to the requested white house call in the white house meeting, the answer is yes. amy: we follow the president's orders. those are the words of u.s. ambassador orden sondland wednesday as he told lawmakers he helped pressure the ukrainian government to investigate trump's political rival joe

biden and his son hunter. we will hear part of silence testimony and speak to democratic presidential candidate julian castro about impeachment and last night's democrcratic debate in atlanta, the first castro was excluded from. at the debate, joe b biden repeatedly stutumbled.d. --in the black community they know me. they know who i am. ththree former chairs of the blk caucus, they only -- african-american woman has ever been elected to the united states senate. a whole range of people. the point is -- >> [indiscernible] [laughter] >> i said the first. the first. so my point is -- joined amy: kamala harris laughed after he apparently forgot she was a senator. we will hear excerpts from the debate and speak to roundtable of guests -- rashad robinson of color of change, ryan grim of the intercept, phyllis bennis of

the institute for policy studies, and economist gabriel zucman. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace repoport. i'm amy goodman. u.s. ambassador gordon sondland told the house impeachment inquiry wednesday that president trump directly pressured the ukrainian government to announce an investigation into joe biden and his son hunter and that other senior administration officials were "in the loop." during explosive testimony on the fifth day of public impeachment hearings, ambassador sondland said vice president mike pence and secretary of state mike pompeo were part of the effort to force ukraine into helping trump's re-election bid. sondland testified the officials knew president trump conditioned the release nearly $400 million in u.s. military aid and an oval office meeting with president zelensky on a statement about the bidens. >> i know members of this frame theseequently

complicated issues no o form ofa simple question. was there quid pro quo? as i i testified previously with regard to the requested white house call and the white house meeting, the answer is yes. amy: wednesday's impeachment hearings o overshadow the latest of a by candidates for the 2020 democratic nomination wednesday evening. 10 leading candidates squared off in atlanta, georgia, discussing rights, women's rights, foreign policy, and climate change. after the headlines, we will speak with julian castro about the impepeachment h hrings andd last nights s debate. were front runner joe biden repeatedly stumbled and julian castro was excluded. in southern mexico, police and national guard troops freed 62 migrants wednesday who were struggling to breathe as they attempted to break out of a locked truck. most of the migrants were from guatemala. they were detained and taken to a local i immigration jail.l.

police arrested the truck's driver and a passenger. in tucson, arizona, a federal jury found humanitarian activist scscott warren not guilty wednesday on two felelony chargs of harboring migrants after he provided food, water, and shelter to a pair of men who survived a perilous journey across the sonoran desert. warren, who is a member of the humanitarian aid group no more deaths, faced up to 20 years in prison at a trial that ended in a hung jury in june. warren was charged after he gave aid to 23-year-old kristian perez-villanueva from el salvador and 20-year-old jose sacaria-goday of honduras. scott warren spoke outside a federal courthouse moments after his acquittal. andhe migrants like jose christian who are totally at the center of the story, who must make impossible decisions many of us cannot even imagine and bear the brunt of this suffering from our hearts are with you. here, people's

brothers, sisters, fathers, spouses, and children are in the midst of that perilous desert crossing. the need for humanitarian aid continues. and, unfortunately, the damage to land and life in the border region not onlyy conontinues, bt has been r ramped up, way out, since my arrest. amy: to see democracy now!'s interview with scott warren during our trip to the sonoran desert this summer, you can go to our website democracynow.org. meanwhile, a federal judge in tucson sentenced former arizona border patrol agent matthew bowen wednesday to three years of supervised release and an $8,000 fine for intentionally running over a guatemalan migrant with a pickup truck in 2017 and then falsifying records about the assault. the man he struck, antolin rolando lopez-aguilar, survived. court filings show bowen had sent a slew of racist messages on his phone referring to immigrants as "mindless murdering savages" and "beaners," among other insults.

in s syria, at least 22 civilias were killed wednesday as government forces backed by russia bombed and shelled partss of idldlib, the last rerebel-controlled pvivince in ria. the aid group known as the white helmetets said a missile loaded with "cluster bombs" struck a camp for internanally displaced people. among those injured were medical workers at a maternity hostatal. meanwhile, israel laununched frh airstrikes overnight tuesday on the e outskirts of s syria's cal damascus. syrian state media says two civilians were killed in the bombings, which were aimed at syrian military targets as well as buildings used to house members of iran's quds force. the attacks have bolstered fears of sparking an all-out conflict between iran and israeael. israel's former army chief benny gantz said wednesday he has failed in his attempts to form a coalition government, setting up a likely third national election in less than a year. neither prime minister benjamin netanyahu's likud party nor gantz's blue and white party won enough votes in a september

-- in to claim an outright september majority after an election in april also yielded no clear winner. at the united nations, the united states stood alone wednesday as the 14 other members of the security council rebuked the trump administration's announcement that it no longer considers israeli settlements in the occupied west bank illegal under international law. this is karen pierce, the united kingdom's ambassador to the u.n. >> i am making this statement today on behalf of belgium, france, germany, poland, and of course the united kingdom. our position on israeli settlement policy and t the occupied palestinian territory, including east jerusalem, is clear and remains unchanged. all sesettlementnt activity is illegal under international law. it violates the two state solution and the prospects for a lasting peace as reaffirmed by you and security council resolution 2334. amy: the united nations is

warning that global fossil fuel production is on track to rapidly increase global temperatures by more than 2 degrees celsius above pre-industrial levels, leading the planet toward a climate catastrophe. in a new report, the u.n. environment program found nations are planning to burn 50% more coal, oil and gas by 2030 than what would be needed to keep global temperature rise below the 2 degree b benchmark. it''s more than double the carbn budget needed to keep global temperature rise below 1.5 degrees celsius. in sydney, australia, health officials are warning young and elderly residents and people with respiratory illness to stay indoors and avoid exercise, as a thick blanket of smoke from unprecedented wildfires settles over the city of 5 million people. the out-of-c-control fires have raged fofor weeks as much ofof e continent is bakeded by a searig heat wave, with the city of memelbourne on wednesday matchig a november temperature record. highs in parts of new south wales have topped 110 degrees fahrenheit this week. more fires are raging in victoria and queensland states.

north dakota's department of environmental quality admitted wednesday that the amount of land fouled by an oil spill from the keystone pipeline last month is nearly 10 times greater than initially reported. the company operating keystone, tc energy corp -- formerly known as transcanada -- says over 380,00000 gallonons of crudede l spilled in a rural wetland after the pipeline ruptured on october 29. tc energy is seeking approval to restart oil flow through the pipeline as early as sunday. in haiti, the latest demonstrations to call for the ouster of the president jovenel moise. >> we could not suffer any longer. we live in a place with no roads, no hospitals, nothing. we are saying this is impossible. that is why we are in the street. amy: more than 40 people have been killed in in two months of in antigovernment protests

haiti. in britain, prince andrew said wednesday he will withdraw from public duties amid mounting public anger over his longtime friendship with deceased serial sexual predator jeffrey epstein. in a bbc interview that aired sunday, prince andrew denied accusations by virginia roberts giuffre, who says she was sexually trafficked by epstein and forced to have sex with the prince when she was 17 years old. a photo released by giuffre shows prince andrew standing beside her with his hand around her bare stomach, with epstein's longtime confidante ghislaine maxwell in the background. in somalia, prominent peace activist almaas elman was shot and killed wednesday as she rode in a car in a heavily fortified area of the capital mogadishu. elman was from a family of somali exiles who returned to somalia from canada in 2010. she worked to promote women's rights, children's rehabilitation, and other social justice issues. she was the daughter of elman ali ahmed, a prominent activist who was assassinated in mogadishu in 1996.

and in the mediterranean island nation of malta, prominent maltese businessman was detained aboard his yacht wednesday while heading out to sea in an arrest linked to the car bomb assassination of journalist daphne caruana galizia two years ago. galizia was a well-known investigative journalist who reported on corruption at the highest levels of the maltese government, including tax evasion, nepotism, and money launderingng. at the time of her mururder, galilizia was investigating fenech's business dealings. on wednesday, , hundreds of demonstrators gagathered outside parliament demanding the resignation of the prime minister over galizia's murder. they surrounded the car of malta's justice minister, banging on the hood and pressing photos of daphne galizia against the windshield. galizia's sister, mandy mallia, was s part of the protest. >> people have to do protest like these more often.

the corrupt must not stay where they are now. they must stay in jaiail. i hope to have a normal country for my children and justice for my sister and all her stories. amy: and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. nermeen: and i'm nermeen shaikh. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. "we followed the presidedent's orders." those were the words of u.s. ambassador gordon sondland wednesday as he told lawmakers that he helped pressure the ukrainian government to investigate joe biden and his son hunter. sondland acknowledged there was a quid pro quo tying u.s. military aid to ukraine with ukraine's announcement of a probe into the bidens. sondland also said secretary of state mike pompeo and vice president mike pence were aware of the campaign. sondland testified the officials knew that president trump conditioned the release of nearly $400 million in u.s. military aid and an overall office meeting with ukrainian president on a statement about

the bidens. amy: this is part of ambassador sondland's opening testimony on wednesday. ,> first, secretary perry ambassador volker, and i worked with mr. rudy giuliani on ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the united states. we did not want to work with mr. giuliani. simply put, we were playing the hand we were dealt. we all understood ththat if we refused to work with mr. giuliani, , we would lose a very imimportant o opportuninity to t relations between the united states and ukraine. -- see event relationsnsetween the united states and ukraine. so we followed the president's orders. second, although we disagreed with t the need to involveve mr. giuliani, at the time, we did not believe that his role was improper. precisely me say

because we did not think we were engaging in improper behavior, we made every effort to ensure that thehe relevant decicision-makers at the natatil security council and thehe state the importantw details of our efforts. the susuggestion that we were engaged inin some irregular or rogue diplomacy is absolutely lse. i have now identified cecertain state d department emails and messages that provide contemporaneneous support for my view. the leadershipow of the state department, , the national security council, and the white house were all informed about the ukraine untilrts from may 23, 2019 the security aid was released on

september 11, 2019. tete from some of thehe messages with you shortly. fourth, asas i testified previouslyly, as i i testified previously, mr. giuliani's quo for were a quid pro arranging a white house visit for president zelensky. mr. g giuliani demanded that ukraine make a public statement announcing the investigations of the 2016 election dnc server, and marie's mom. b --urismsma. mr. giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the united states and we need these investigations were present -- imported the president. nermeen: that was u.s. ambassador to the european union gordon sondland testifying before the house intelligence committee on wednesday. fiona hill and david holmes will

testify today beginning at 9:00 a.m. amy: and democracy now! will livestream at democracynow.org. now we turn to democratic presidential candidate julian secretary served as of housing and urban development under president obama. first, we will talk about the debate. first, we go to the impeachment inquiry, which we have also been talking about and tweeting about. secretary castro, can you talk about the significancee of yesterday's testimony, what was considered to be the most important, the front headline of "the new york times" across all five columns "we followewed the presidentt orders." >> it was blockbuster testimony. it was i i believe the nail in e coffffin of donald trumpmp and e case try to o make. how manyny times have e we heare president say over and over again there wawas no quid pro qo anand here we have e ambassador

sondndland, that everybody acknowledges had the m most rert contact with the psident, knewew what w was going o on, was partf also email chainins, saying very specififically, , very dirirectt ththere was a quidid pro quouo. and d that t the president was holding up military aid until president zelensky announce an investigigation of varese my. it realllly could not be more clear ththat the preresident violated his oatath of office, abused his power, and this was just some of the testimony. there was plenty of other testimony to back the case up. of course, fiona hill will testify today. it is very damning to the president. nermeen: many people now believe, of course, trump was guilty of this. but do you think everyone is persuaded this is an impeachable offense and ththat he e is in ay sense likely to be i impeached? >> i believe so. i believe anybybody who is lookg

at this, you know, in n a neutrl way, that includes the mamajoriy of thehe amerirican people thata number of polls s have suggested that more than 5 50% of americas believe the pridident should be impeached and removed from ofoffice because of whwhat he di have no dodoubt that h hhas had his defense in the house of representatives and he will certainly have mitch m mcconnel, his s defenderers in thehe sena. i'i'm not naive. i don'n't t believe mitchccononl and his buddies are g going to tatake an impeachment t from the house if t the president is impepeached in the house -- d i believe u will be -- they're nonot going to take that t and n it into heher removalal. however, t the american peopople paying attenention. and d i believe if ththey don't remove him, it i is going to hae dire consequences for them in november 2020. amy: while you are out on the campaign trail, your brother, your identical twin brother joaquin castro is on the house

intelligence committee that is questioning the candidates.. i want to go to a lighter moment in the hearings when congressman castro begins to question alexander vindman during tuesday's impeachment hearings. >> col. vindman, thank y you for yoyour service. it is great to talk to a fellow identical twin. i hope your brother is nicer to you than mine is to me. it doesn't make you grow a bebeard. amy: that is congressman joaquin castro. secretary julian castroo, you care to defend yourself? [laughter] >> i sit o on twitter if i knewe was going toook at bad on him, i wowould not have suggested it. my brotheher a text yesterday. i think k it was before e he asd the questioions. just telling him to make sure that hdid not look rumplpled on tv, that everybody was watchchi. i am verery proud ofof him.

this is his fourthth term reprenting the 20th district of texas. he has hadad excellent question, including yesterday i think he used some of the footage of mick mulvaney basically admitting before ambassadador sondland d set o n the record, admitting there was a quid pro quo. hehe is d doing a greatat job. and so were alall of t the demos on that commmmittee.e. they are tryrying to get at thte truth. unlike, anand firstly, what was the on the others with people like representatative jordadan d nunes who aree living in another world. amy: i want to turn from the impeachment earnings to the debate, the fifth democratic presidential candidate debate that was held last night. it was the first one that you were not a part of. can you explain why youou were t

invited toto be part of t the 1? k know, of yoyour viewersrs this is s the first yeyear the democratic n national committe hahas imposed cecertain thresho, pulling threshololds and fundraising threresholds comomen order for candidatetes to gegetn the debatete stage. the threshold f for the november december debatates were that you had to get four polls att 3% either n nationally or n nationy or it one ofof t four earl states or 25% pollsls nationall. we did not hitit those threshol. i undererstand their thinkikingn order toreorder -- raisise that t has more democras runnnning than ever bebefore. atat the samame time, i i thinky have to gogo back and reevaluate these thresholds because it is clear thatat people can buy ther way onto that debebate stage. you can buyuy in increasese in pollining and get those kinds of numbers.s. pollining itself, when you are

dealining in those kinds of numbers, is notot that precise. 3%, 4% is all w within ththe margin of f error. onop of ththat, i question whether ----hen we get too november andnd decembeber, you'e right near the iowa c caucus, whether they should have kept increasing the threshold in the first place. amy: i want to ask you about this key issue of polling and also the first two primary and caucus states being among the whitest states in the country. this is a question you have bebn asked before. but during the first ever presidential forumum on environmental justice earlierr this month in sosouth carolina,i had a chance to ask one of your political rivals about this. senator elizabeth warren. about the order of the primaries and caucuses. senator warren, just 30 seconds left. speaking about racial injustice, do you think the order of the primary states should change? you have iowa and new hampshire

-- >> before you finish, are you going to as me to sit here and criticize i ia and neww hampshire? amy: no, i'm asking about the order. of the whitest states in the country and then we moved to south carolina with a very significant population of people of color. and it means the candidates spend so much of their time catering to those first two states. overall, do you think that should change? >> i am just a player in the game on this one. and i am delighted to be in south carolina. thank you. elizabethwas senator warren's comments. of course, candidates do not want to disparage states or talked about changing order when this is the key states. a number of candidates drop out after these first two primaries and caucuses.

and in the lead up come the longest lead up in history of a presidential pre-primary season, these candidates -- and i'm sure including you, secretary castro -- go endlessly to these two states, going to so many different areas, addddressing their concerns. cacan you talk abobout whether u see this as a major problem? >> yeah, i know i hahave been there to new hampshire and ioioa a numberer of times c come on my occasions now. we are p pretty deep into the presidentitial -- the primamary campaign cycle. ththpeople arere wonderful. i hahave been pleasesed withth y we have been received. everybody hahas been very nicec. amy, youou're c correct in the concerns that you r raise in tht forum, which is these two states, iowawa and new hampshir, simply do o not reflect the diversity of the d democraratic party or of f the united states.

iowa hasas been the first t to e since 1972. our r country has changed a lot. our party has chananged a lott since 1972. further, the democraratic p pary justifiably has pressed the case against republicacans foror tryg to suppresess the votes of peope of c color in differenent ways,, whether r voter idid or gerrrrymandering or throwiwing people off the roles weree closing early voting polls on g greaterwn there isis a proportion of african-americans that go to vote, drivives across the countrtry. so we ould doo that. but wewe can't just do that and ththen turn around and start our primary process, our nominating process for president in two states that hardly have any black people, hardly have any people of color. it does not reflect the values we say we espouse.

my point has been,n, i understad the tradidition come about, loo, it is a different daday and age. changed thednc primary ordering process and give other states and opportunity to go first. nermeen: secretary castro, i want to about the discrepancy in fundining between white and othr candidates who are running for the nomination. earlier this month, xes ran a piece titled "the racial wealth democrats"020 revealing "the leading white candidates in the presidential primary combined have nearly four times as much cash on hand as allive nonwnwte candidates." secretary castro? > i think that is a aunctionf the fafact that right now thesee candidatat arere the leadingng

candididates. these two thingsgs goo together. they are raising more money now bebecause they are near the topf the polls, near the top of the polls b because in n part they e bebeen able to raise m moree mo. know, one of the biggest challenges of the 2020 cycle for some of us who are for ag is that right now decent percentage of the voters, and certainly there is a mainstream media narrative that has been created, and this mainstream media is that it will take a certain type of candidate that can appeal specifically to a whihi, midwestern voter. that that is w what is going to beat donald d trump. and because of that, i think folklks are gravitating toward certain typepes candidates.s. mymy point all a along has beent if we e want to win this e elec, wewe actually have to o electriy diversema coalitionon, a

coalition ofof people of differt backgrounds, working-c-class , frfromyoyoung and old every y part of theountry. that is how we are going to win. we are notot going t to win if w beeve that we only have to -- oror we can just appeal to one type of voter in one part o of e cocountry. ifif we do that, we e are actual risking giviving the electctionk to dononald trump. because if our r nominee e cannt appepeal to whole crososs-sectif voters y yeah, youou may increae yoyour share of voters in one pt of thehe country, ofof one prof, but t you're going to lose a lot of people in other places and you're going to lose the electition. amamy: as we wrap up, julian castro, do you think the primary order shshould change? isis therere any reason it shoud continue as it is? gemma in texas, said he cannot get candidates down to forums in texas, a major

state, far larger than the first two primary statates. i majorority minority ststate. there are too busy andnd iowa ad nenew hampmpshire. >> off course the order shouould chchange. i have made ththat clearly and blbluntly. i belelieve there are a lotot of people in iowa and hinted d that appreciatedd candidate telliling the trututh. i i would sasay to them,m, looki justolold you the truth about what we needed to d do. i was in iowa and i d d it. i will take thehe truth now andf i am eleleed presidentnt, i will tell you truth when i amm president. we need toto change the order of those states to refeflect the diveversity of ourur country anf the democratic party. amy: julian castro, thank you for being with us democratic , 2020 presidential candidate. served as secretary of housing and urban devevelopment from 201414-2017. are you staying in the race? >> i i am. i am workiking andnd fighting through iowowa. all throughout this campaign, we have been speaking up for the most marginalized, people that are oftenenorgotten,, the poor.

and i'm going to keep doing that. amy: when we come back, we will be joined by a roundtable of people to talk about what was raised and wasn't raised in last nights fit democratic presidential primaryry d debate. it was held in atlanta, georgia. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. as we continue on the fifth presidential primary debate, democrat, in atlanta, georgia. nermeen: we are now joined for a roundtable unless nights debate. in washington, d.c., phyllis bennis, author of several books including "understanding the palestinian-israeli conflict: a primer." in berkeley, california, gabrial zucman is professor of economics the co-author and

of the book "the triumph of injustice: how the rich dodge taxes and how to make them pay." in atlanta, georgia ryan grim, , washington, d.c., bureau chief for the intercept. he was at the debate last outpost of amy: in new york city rashad robinson, president of , color of change. his latest piece for the nation is headlined "forget about plans, which candidate can get things done?" let's begin with former vice president joee biden speaking last night. >> i am part of that obama coalitition. i cocome out of the blackk cocommunityy in terms of my supppport. if you noticice, i have more people supporting me in the black community because they know me. they know who i am. three former chairs of the black caucus. the only african-american woman who has ever been elected to the united states senate. the whole range of people. >> no. the other one is here. [laughter] >> i said the first. i said the first african-american.

so my point is -- is: senator kamala harris putting her hands up and she is the one who corrects him. no, you don't have the support of your arrival senator harris. what are you talking about? rashad robinson, unix that what happened? >> i think it is tricky when white folks try to out black lycos. i think biden would do himself a favor and looking at what bill clinton did in 2007 and 2008 and south carolina where he sort of talked about his history and undermining the candidacy of president obama at the time. and folks began to turn on him and began to push back on that. hillary enjoyed a lot of support back then from a wide range of black folks. but what she enjoyed and what biden enjoys is a lot of support from insiders, from the establishment, from fololks that are looking at sort of the calculation and think that this

is a candidate that white people will accept and white people will vote for. as we get closer and closer to election day, if biden is not willing to consolidate support -- we are going to see people moving the weight and we already see that in terms of young black folks, in terms of the activist community, and many others that just simply don't think biden has the range. and he hasn't been there. he hasn't showed up. biden is the only candidate that we have not been able to get a sit down meeting with. it is absolutely outrageous that we have reached out multiple times and it is almost like a joke now with his folks were they say, oh, well, maybe. i can't think of any next-generation black leader or organization in the movement right now that has had a sit down conversation with joe biden. if this is what he does when we are dating, what is going to happen if we get married? this is a really big problem. if he is not willing to sit down and have conversations to hear

from us about our priorities -- and we have a lot of concerns about what the future looks like. nermeen: let's go to an exchange between senator kamala harris and south bend mayor pete buttigieg. this is the co-moderator kristen. >> senator, this week you criticized pete buttigieg's outreaeach to african-american voters. he said "the democratic nominee has got to be someone who has the experience of connecting with all of who we are as the diversity of the american people." what exactly prompted you to say that, senator harris? >> i was asked a question that related to a stock photograph that his campaign published. listen, i think it really speaks to a larger issue and i will speak to the larger issue. i believe that the mayor has made apologies for that. the larger issue is that for too long i think candidates have

taken for granted constituencies thatat have been the backbone of the democratic party and have overerlooked those c constitueus and have -- yoyou know, they s w up when it's, you know, closeseo election time and show up in a black church and want to get the vote, but just haven't been there before. ?> mayor buttigieg yok >> i completely agree. challenge the to connecting with voters who don't yet know me. and before i share what's in my plans, let me talk about what's in my heart and why this is so imimportant. as mayor of f a cityty that is racially diviverse and largely w -income, 48 years i have lived -- foror eight years, i have lid and breathed the successes and struggles of a community where far too many people live with the consequences of racial inequity that has built-up over centuries but been compounded by policies and decisions f from

within living memory. amy: that is south mayor pete speaking last night. ryan grim of the intercept, you there and you have written a lot about the mayor. your response to what he said and his performance last night? interesting that kamala harris decided to kind of take a path on coming directly at mayor buttigieg in that exchange. and nobody else really came at him throughout the entire debate. i think he was prepared for an onslaught given that there had been recent polls showing him up in new hampshire and iowa and normally the front runner gets piled on. that may have been delayed until the next debate. what she was referring to is a stock photo, related to a broader controversy over the way he presented what is known as his douglass plan for black america. this is a primary piece of outreach that he has for the black community. when he rolled it out, yes, it

is kind of funny he used a stock photo from a kenyan woman and her little brother to kind of promote the project for black america, but more damaging to him -- in which harris did not get into -- he listed 400 supporters of this plan. the top three of whom were leaders of f the black community in south carolina. after he came out, they told the johnnypt, two of them -- cordero, the chairman of the south carolina black caucus said, i explicitly told them i do not endorse t this plan and ththey used my namame anyway.y. state representative i rethink pins at the same thing. he exquisitely told them he is not endorsing the douglass plan, and they put his name on it anyway. he in fact is the cochair of the bernie sanders campaign in south carolina. said, i toldorser

him it was ok to use my name for the douglass plan, but i said, please don't make it look like i am endorsing her kiddos the. -- your candidacy. she felt like it was vague to make it look like she had done that. it is difficult to imagine a politician doing that sort of thing to a white state senator in iowa or new hampshire, for instance. it is difficult to imagine that happening to any community other than the black community in american politics. harris pivoted to a conversation about what is your authentic connection with the black community? and booker also hit later on a related point, which is if you can pray together the obama coalition -- that was kind of a code for bringing together white progressives, lgbtq community, and the black community together , immigrant community together into that coalition, that is able to get more than 50% of the vote. if you can't make that entirire coalition whole, arare going to

fall short. but they did not kind of name him when they were making that argument. amy: rashad robinson, the significance of this? pete nowou have mayor pulling number one and one of the whitest states in the country, iowa, number one. he has jumped something like, if you believe the polls, roughly 10% against warren, sanders, and biden, which is why everyone was going after him last time. yet pulling it all must zero within the black community. >> i've had some time to talk with mayor pete. and really have pushed them. i don't even understand why he named his plan the douglass plan. can you explain this frederick douglass, someone that is really inspiring to you? why? what is your relationship with the community? i think the problem that mayor pete has is that he comes across is a very good student, someone who is deeply studied and can

understand issues, but doesn't have a context oftentimes or a story to back it up. people reaealize that and recognize that. he is a millennial who does not have, right now, black k friends out there talking about him. that is worrisome. amy: explain what happened in south bend, indiana, what happened during his campaign, the killing of an african-american. >> both the police killing and the ongoing way that he has had problems with pulleys tension, the firing of the black police chief who is working to expose racism in the force. this is someone who has had deep challenges with racial justice in a relatively small city that most people probably can't .2 at the map -- on the map, who now was to be president of the united states. racial justice is done aside peace. it is not charity. and while it is moral, it is actually strategy. it is a strategy to actually win. it is a force multiplier for the

type of change we need on our side to get people mobilized out of the polls to expand the base. if a candidate actually does not have the type of relationship where people feel like they are known, like they're going to actually be engaged in their going to be prioritized, then they're not going to show up in big numbers. i think the challenge for mayor pete is the douglass plan on paper seems like a lot -- amy: named for frederick douglass. >> seems like a lot of good information, but there is no story or context behind it. there's also not a history of him implementing it and executing it. and with all of these candidates, i'm not interested in -- and folks are not interested in the what, but the how. what is your experience and your relationship to movement to actually getting this done? we have a history, hundreds of years, of stalled progress, of inequality on race issues in

this country. and we need someone that actually has experience, the ability to mobilize people, and the ability to move people. we need to know it is a priority, not t somethingg you e to do to check off a box. he still has someone to do in regard. amy: we will go to break and come back to continue this discussion on the democratic debate that took place in atlanta, georgia. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: her latest album was just nominated for a 2020 grammy award. to see h her full performance an interview here at democracy now! about the protest movement that took down puerto rico's governor last summer, visit democracynow.org. this is democracy now!, i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. we continue last ninight's s dee in atlanta. senators elizabeth warren and corybooker clashed on her proposal to impose a 2% annual tax on wealth above $50 million. >> let me tell you what we can do with that two cent wealth tax. two cents on the top 1/1/10 of % in his country and we can provide universal child care for

every baby in this country zero to five. that is transformative. we can provide universrsal pre-k for every three-year-old and four-year-old in this country. we can stop exploiting the women, largely black and blount women, who do this work and we could rage the wages of every childcare worker increase will teacher in america. we can put 800 billion new federal dollars into all of our public schools. we can make college tuition free for every kid. we can put $50 billion into historically black colleges and universities. and we can cancel student loan debt for 95% of the folks who've got it. two cent wealth tax and we can invest in an entire generation's future. cook's let me let senator booker respond. >> you know, again, i agree with the need to do all of those things. we're all united in wanting to see universal preschool. and i'll fight for that. we're all united in wanting to fund hbcu's. heck, i wouldn't be here if it wasn't for two parents that went to hbcu's. but the tax the way we're

putting it forward right now, the wealth tax, i'm sorry, it's cumbersome. it's been tried by other nations. it's hard to evaluate. we can get the same amount of revenue through just taxation. nermeen: said that the senator elizabeth warren and senator corybooker at last night's debate. i would like to bring gabrial conversation,e co-author of the new book "the triumph of injustice: how the rich dodge taxes and how to make them pay." your response to elizabeth warren's tax plan and cory booker's criticism of it? cook's first, i think it is fascinating to see the shift i n the conversation about taxes among democrats. for a very long time, they were reluctant, most of them, to talk taxation,essive we haveillionaires. now proposals about well taxation endorsed by major candidate. elizabeth warren is one, also

bernie sanders. with a rate as high as 6%, as high as 8% above $10 million in the sanders plan. this is a dramatic departure and major change that i welcomed in the conversation. of course, there is some pushback. we heard senator booker pushing baback on the idea of well taxation. my answer to that is, i have studied european witith well taxation and it has been largely a f failure that this is for preventable reasons. i think u.s. is in a much stronger position to make a wealth tax work today. if you are r rich, french perso, french person, you could avoid the wealth tax by moving to belgium or moving to a low tax country anywhere else in europe.

if you are wealthy american, cannot avoid taxes by moving abroad bececause the taxes follw yoyou. taxation is based on citizenship. fights. does much more to tax evasion and could do even more in the future then european countries have been doing.. toy wealthy europeans used hide assets and still do in banks in switzerland, and luxembourg, in similar tax savings. the u.s. is a bit more aggressive when n it comes to trying to collect information from these tax havens. one last thing, there is this notion that wealth taxess are cumbersome, are very hard to implement because it is hard to value assets. but t it is not quite true. when you look at the wealth of the very wealthy individuals who would be affected by the wealth taxes, about 70%, 75% of their wealth is invested in listed

securities, and equities, bonds, neutral funds, that have well defined, well market values. it is pretty easy to tax these very wealthy americans, potentially progressively. amy: i want to ask you about the recent guardian piece you wrote "make no mistake: medicare for all would cut taxes for most americans." the way the corporate media and the moderators from the questioners in general through these debates ask about issues like medicare for all is by saying, are you going to increase taxes? explain what the cost would be an effect how people would actually save money. >> yes, that is a very important question and something that is not well understood i feel among the public. whwhat is very importantnt to understatand is thee way health care is funded today, when it comes to employer-provided health care, is already what you

could call a big private tax, which is that empmployers have o pay private insurance companies to cover their workers. and that is mamandatory, essentially. and it is a huge cost. it is about $13,000 per worker. and the cost is the same no matter what the wage of the employees. secretary3,000 for a and for an executive. if there was a transition to medicare for all, here is what could happen. you could imagine employers would be forced to convert the premiums they currently pay to insurance companies into wages, so that it would make no difference just for r them, it would make a difference. for the workers, it would increase their wages essentially by $13,000. which would be the biggest pay raise in a generation for the

vast majority of americans.. and then of course taxes would have to increase to paper medicare for all. but with taxes based on income or wealth or taxes on corporate profofits, it is easy to make se for most workers that the extra taxes would be much less than the net in wage so that take-home pay, the increase in take-home pay would be again the biggest increase in generation for 90% of workers. amy: and it would increase access to health care for everyone. we want to turn to foreign policy right now. this is senator bernie sanders speaking about the u.s. relationship with saudi arabia. >> i think i may have been the first person up here to make it clear that saudi arabia not only murdered khashoggi, but this is

a brutal dictatorship which does everything it can to crush democracy, treats women as third class citizens. when we were you think our american foreign policy, what we've got to know is saudi arabia is not a reliable ally. we have got to bring iran and room arabiaia together in a under american leadership and say we are sick and tired of us spending huge amounts of money and human resources because of your conflict. by the way, the same thing goes with israel and the palestinians. it is no longer good enough for us simply to be pro-israel. i am pro-israel. but we must treat the palestinian people as well with the respect and dignity that they deserve. what is going on in gaza right now, where youth unemployment is 70% or 80%, is unsustainable. so we need to be rethinking who our allies are around the world, work with the united nations, and not continue to support

brutal dictatatorships. amy: that is senator bernie sanders at last nights presidential primary debate. haslis bennis is with us, written a number of books including "understanding the palestinian-israeli conflict: a primer." your response to the foreign policy, the -- foreign policy section of the debate? it looked like bebernie sanderso talk about israel-palestine. >> he was i indeed the only one who talked about israel having palestine. there was good news and bad news. if we look at the foreign policy debate overall, the good news is other than bernie sanders and to some degree elizabeth warren, there's not a lot yet but there is a growing recognition among the candidate that the base of the democratic party, the discourse has changed dramatically across the board on the middle east. so that questions of recognizing that saudi arabia is not our trusted ally against terrorism,

but is a brutal dictatorship is now a widespread view even from the centrist sector of the democratic party -- people like amy klobuchar and joe biden both said that. what is missing, and this is where we get into the problematic part, what is missing from this shift is that there's not a lot of discussion about what would that mean? bernie sanders comments about saudi arabia and the need for diplomacy between bringing together, as he put it, saudi arabia and iran was the one specific and innovative notion ofreplacing war and threat war with diplomacy. but there's not a lot of that kind of discussion about how would this happen? in the past, elizabeth warren has veryry importantntly given a numbmber on the question of how much money would you cut from the military budgeget? in her proposal around medicare for all, she proposed cutting

$80 billion from the military budget. which is huge. no other candidate and virtually no one else in congress has given those kinds of specific numbers yet about what they payd be willing to cut to for big bold new proposals like the green new deal, like medicare for all. in this debate, when there is discussion about the green new deal, discussion about health care, it did not come up in connection. we did not see that intersectiononal relationship between one of the places we can get money is from the military budget. there was a very extensive discussion from elizabeth warren about the $800 billion -- which is a very important figure that she e is put forward on a numbmr of occasions -- in terms of the wealth tax and how that t coulde used for health care. the same thing is true across the board for other candidates on the question of cutting the military budget was not in fact, in june, when the poor people's campaign convened a candidates

form, there were not members of the pool of candidates who were there, including all of the major candidates, andnd seven of the nine were asked, would you cut the military budget? every single one said yes. the other two were not asked to come just by chance. one of those, ironically, was bernie sanders, who must consistently has talked about cutting the military budget. but the problem was the questions. the questions from the journalists asking the questions did not include "you've all said you would cut the military budget, and other has to be how much?" my cololleagues have put togethr the numbers, where these cuts can come from. we could cut 66 billion dollars just by ending the pentagon's war slush fund. we could c cut $112 billion by cutting just 75% of the 800 overseas military bases. there is a way to do this. there is a way to do this. and to make it real. and that is not what we're

hearing it from the candidates. there recognizing the discourse is changing and they have to catch up, but they have not cut up sufficiently. they'rere not listening to the movements. they are not listening even to the polls, which people in the democratic party and more broadly aree all -- amy: we want to bring in a person who was not standing on the stage and alanna last night but merely they are there every step of the way, that is barack obama, former president. i want to talk about his commas last week at a fundraising event. he said -- ryan grim the significance of does she basically was saying -- he was warning the part about going too left. >> because the democratic party

-- and by that i also mean the base of it, the voters, have refused to reckon with the obama administration in an honest way. ofremains able to kind dictate the direction of the conversation. nobody on stage is willing to come after obabama specifically. it not only allows biden to times up to his record, but it allows obama to make these interventions. you notice in the debate last and even tulsi gabbard, who is more willing than probably anybody on that stage to specifically come after the democratic party, said that kamala harris administration would just be an extension of bush/clinton/trump foreign policy. flinchedspecifically at putting obama into -- dylan amy: we want t to give rishaad e

last word. we just have 10 seconds. looks i was in the room when that happened. most of the people in the room were donors. obama also said one other thing i think all of us have to remember is that he wished he put more money into state infrastructure to actually

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