12/04/19 12/04/19 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from stockholm, sweden, this is democracy now! what the president of brazil to destroy the lives of our forest, our real amazozo. .t is unique it is a struggle, a fight so we can keep alive because without

the struggle, we won't live. there will be no forest. we need to fight for it so we cacan live. t the right livelihood awards celebrate their 40th anniversary tonight, we speak to one of the four laureates: davi kopenawa, indigenous yanomami leader of brazil. then a damning u.n. report says arellion children worldwide to pride of theieir liberty, frm childrenen jailed on the u.s.-mexico border to the missining children of isis fighters. we speak with the report's author, manfred nowak, former special rubber tour on tortrtur. >> should d not be deprived o of liberty and states should look to find noncustodial situations and usually they are e availabl. itit is simply a question of politics. inther you invest primarily

the criminal justice systemm or you invest more in the child welfare system and support families. amy: the u.s.s. u.s. is the only country that has not ratified the convention on the rights of the child. all that and more, coming up. wewelcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the house intelligence committee has released its report on the impeachment inquiry, concluding president trump tried to use the powers of his office to o solict foreign interference on his behalf in the 2020 election. the scathing report says "the president placed his own personal and political interests above the national interests of the united states." the report went on to say -- "the founding fathers prescribed a remedy for a chief executive who places his personal interests above those of the

country: impeachment." this is house intelligence committee chair adam schiff speaking tuesday. >> if the congress allows our president to sosoulfully and blatantly obstruct the work of congress, even involving an impeachment investigation into the president's own misconduct, then we are begging for more of the same. we are signaling to any future president day they can engage any corruption, malfeasance, or negligence and they are beyond countability. amy: the report centers on how president trump withheld military aid from ukraine in order to pressure the ukrainian president to investigate trump's political rivals, the bidens. the report also chronicles how top administration officials knew about trump's efforts or helped him carry them out. these top officials include vice president mike pence, secretary of state mike pompeo, energy

secretary rick perry, and acting chief of staff mick mulvaney. today the house judiciary committee will hold its first televised hearing, featuring testimony from four constitutional law experts on the constitutional nature of impeachment. democracy now! will be broadcasting the hearing live beginning at 10:00 a.m. eastern time at democracynow.org. the european union environmental agency is warning wide swaths of europe could face analal extreme heat waves unless urgent action is taken to dramatically reduce greenhouse gas emissions to avert the most catastrophic impacts of climate change. this is hans bruyninckx of the european union environmental agency, which released its new report this week amid the u.n. climate change summit in madrid, spain. -- it is ato critical decade. we already see a reversible damage.

climate change is happening. biodiversity is lost. species are disappearing. our oceans are changing fundamentally. amy: democracy now! will be broadcasting from cop25 in madrid, spain, beginning on friday and all next week. calirnia senatator kamala harris sasays she's ending her 2020 presidtial race. harris began her campaign as one of the front-running candidates, but now says she doesn't have enough money to continue her run. there has been a significant racial wealth gap among 2020 presidential candidates. in november, the four leading white candidates -- bernie sasanders, elizabeth w warren, e buttigieg, and joe biden -- had nearly four times as much cash on hand as the race's five candidates of color -- harris, andrew yang, cory booker, tulsi gabbard, and jululian castro. this is castro r responding to nenews about kamalala harris's departure from the race.

a what we are staring at is dnc debate stage in a few days with no people of color on it. it does not reflect the diversitity of our p party oouor coununtr we need to do tter than that. am after kamala harris announced her departure from the race, trump sarcastically tweeted at harris, writing, "too bad, we will miss you kamala!" in response, harris, california's former top prosecutor, responded -- "don't worry, mr. president. i'll see you at your trial." an explosive new propublica investigation reveals how the consulting giant mckinsey & company helped the trump administration speed up its mass deportation program. mckinsey proposed cuts to spending on food, medical care and supervision of people in immigration jails -- measures that were considered too harsh by some immigration and customs enforcement agents. the mckinsey team also looked for ways to accelerate

deportrtationsns, which h raised concerns among some ice officials about due-process protections for immigrants appealing their removal from the united states. mckinsey now has a new a $2 million contract with customs and border protection. in louisiana, asylum seekers detainined at an immigrant jailn the rural town of winnfield are refusing to move into their cells as part of an ongoing protest against their prolonged detention. family members of people detained at the winn correctional center say some asylum seekers are sleeping outside the facility and have inscribed towels and bed sheets with the word "libertad," or "freedom" in spanish. winn detains about 1500 men and is one of eight jails in louisiana that began imprisoning asylum seekers last year. the house of representatives has overwhelmingly voted for legislation that requires president trump to impose sanctions against senior chinese officials involved in the mass detention camps of muslim uighur

s in china's northwestern region of xinjiang. the chinese government responded angrily to the legislation's passage. this is the chinese foreign ministry spokesperson. >> no person should underestimate the chinese government's resolution and ability to defend our national sovereignty, national security, and developmental interest. anyone who was due use hong kong issues to interfere and restrain china's development must be delusional. amy: the house's passage of the uighur act of 2019 comes as "the new yorkrkimes" reports chinese officialals in xinjianang are collllecting blood samples en masssse in efforts t to build a system capable of creating an image of a person's face using dna. the united states is also seeking to develop this technology, , which raises vast concerns aboutut privacy and ste surveillance.. the internationanal criminal cot is beginning a three-d-day hearg today about torture in

afghanistan, includiding by u.s. forces. the hearing will probe allelegations that memembers ofe u.s. mitary and intelligence agencieses tortured, raped, and sexually abused afghan prisonens between 2003 and 2004. prosecutors and torture survivors are hoping to overturn a previous ruling that blocked an invnvestigation intnto allegd u.s. war crimes in afghanistan. this ruling, issued in april, came only a month after u.s. secretary of state mike pompeo banned visas for international criminal court staff seeking to investigate the allegations of u.s. war crimes in afghanistan and beyond. in new york city, four rikers island correctional officers have been suspended after video showed the officers stood by for seven minutes while a teenager attempted to hang himself. video shows one officer even walked up to the holding pen where the teenager was hanging, opened the door, then closed the

door and walked awaway without inintervening. 18-year-old nicholas feliciano had been jailed in rikers since november 19 when he was arrested on a parole violation. he is now hospitalized in a medically induced coma after the suicide attempt. and d today marks the 50th anniversary y of the death of black panther leader fred hampton. on december 4, 1969, chicago police raided hampton's apartment and shot and killed him in his bed. he was just 21 years old. black panther leader mark clark was also killed in the raid. authorities initially claimed the panthers had opened fire on the police who were there to serve a seararch warrant for weweapons. but evidence l later emeed thaht told a very different t story -- the fbi, the cook county state's attorney's office, and the chicago police had conspireded o assassinate fred hampton. thiss s hampton anand s own words s eaking before his death abouthe e reessionongainst his fellow bla p panth pararty membmbs. ofgoing to all tys

physical and mental torte,e, but that's s alrightt because we wee -- after everybody ilolockedp. you cakill revolutionaries, t you caot kill revotition. you can't run a liberation out of the countntry. amamy: that was fred hampton speaking in the 1969 documentary "thehe murder of fred hampton." fred hamampton and m mark clarke assassinated by the fbi in chicago police 50 years ago today. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we're broadcasting from stockholm, sweden, where the right livelihood award is marking its 40th anniversary. the right livevelihood award was establblished inin 1980 to honod

support those "offering practical and exemplary answers to the most urgent challenges facing us today." it has since become known as the alternative nobel prize. over the past four decades, it's been given to activists and grassroots leaders around the globe, a number of whom have gone on to win t the nobobel pee prprize. this year's winners are the 16-year-old swedish climate activist greta thunberg, sahrawi human rights activist aminatou haidar, chinese women's rights lawyer guo jianmei, and brazilian indigenous leader davi kopenawa and the yanomami hutukara association. they fight for the amazon's biodiversity and indigenous people. we'll hear from davi kopenawa later in the broadcast. but first, we're joined in our studio by ole von uexkuell, executive director of the right livelihood foundation based here inin stockholm. welcome to democracy now!

congratulations on this 40th anniversary. can you talk about how these -- gotnot started and started and why they are here in stockholm? >> this is 40 years ago. it was during the days when a man was shot dead in the streets in york at the foundation started here witith its very fit award presentation and now we have been doing this for so many years. 170 eight laureates from 70 countries. the first idea was really linked to the nobel foundation, which is based here in stockholm. because they are responsible to carry out the will of alfred nobel, who said his capital should be used to start these prices. the nobel foundation started the price in economics in 1969. and from that emerged the idea,

it was my uncle at the timime, o think, if you can start new nobel categories, should not just be one in economics, there should be nobel prize -- which is still the world's most important award -- also for people who work for the environment and the interest of the poor, majority in the world. amy: you have had this award for .ustainability and equality will the nobel foundation consider adding it as another nobel prize? >> they took a decision in 1980 when my uncle made this offer to not take on any new categories any longer, but he did not need the e blessing of the e nobel foundation. so he went on to start the right livelihood foundation. because of this history, it is still referred to as the alternative nobel hearings. amy: and rigight livelelihood m? >> the idea of living lightly on the earth, not taking more than a fair share of the resources, and it means to bring change

into the world through your practical actions. we call laureates practical visionaries, people who are working toward a vision of how the world could be so different but who show with the concrete work what the steps on this way can be, who proved that solutions are possible. amy: this year, two of the four white livelihood laureates are not here. for different reasons. yet greta thunberg, who is actually from stockholm, but she is just made landfall in portugal, heading to spain for the u.n. climate summit, tries to minimize her carbon fofootprint. chinese you have the lawyer. explain why she has not come. >> she could not travevel from china to attend the award presentation here in stockholm. it is a sign of the shrinking space of the society around the world. we have seen that in recent years with laureates from other

countries as well. we are in coconstant contact wih her and we have agreed that we are not commenting on the exact reason -- the good thing about our relationship with our laureates is it does not end with the award presentation. rather the opposite. we have an ongoing cooperation with many of our laureates and we hope there will be other opportunitities to meet guo jianmei. amy: one of those will be appearing tonight, not in person but by skype, is edward snowden, who is in political exile right now in moscow, russia. i will be interviewing him from the stage. others have gone on to win the nobel peace prize like the great environmentalist. >> indeed. we see this award is in a norma's support for the -- enormous support for the laureates. the award takes different

shapes. there some like greta thunberg who o have worldwide recognition already. intos, they are catapulted a world stage. and for all of them throughout stockholm and through our office in geneva where we have with the united n nations, wewe continue. amy: we just interviewed haidar, opposed to moroccan occupation of western sahara is one of those who will be awarded tonight. and the other, davi kopenawa. >> indeed. both of them are here. the is an example where conflict has been neglected for far too long and the neglect of gotchas just the international community, but the press, communicates that if you protest violently, then you haveve the world's attention. but if you protest in a nonviolent way, as aminatou

haidar t the people of west saha have been doing, then nobody really cares. we really hope to shine a light on what is called a frozen conflict where there is suffering going on every day. amy: we're going to play the four of davi kopenawa, the right livelihood award winner, the laureate, tonight. i want to thank you, ole von uexkuell, for jojoining us toda, executive director of the stockholm-based right livelihood foundation. as we turn now to this indigenous leader in his own words. last night i sat down with davi kopenawa, who is a right livelihood laureates, along with his organization hutukukara yanomami association. kopenawa is a shaman of the yanomami people, one of the largest indigenous tribebes in brazil, dedicating his life to preserving his culture and protecting the amazon rainforest. i began by asking him to talk about the threats facing the yanomami people.

>> my name is davi kopenawa. i am a representative of the brazil. people in , is aple, the yanomami sacred people. up until today, the yanomami peoples have not recognized where we come from, where we were born. nonindigenous society -- it is our home, destroying our land, our territory. contaminating our rivers, killing our fish.

and hindering the health o of te yanomami people. ,ho are now contaminated by man men who came and contaminated our home. amy: the recent election of jair bolsononaro mr. presidident of brazil, how has that affected indigenous people? bolsonaro was people.by his own as indigenous peoples, we have not participated in it. we have not voted for him. though he is now there. and he is preparing a trap.

he is preparing a trap for my yanomami people in order to fool us and manipulate us. amy: explain more what that trap is. is a trap, just like the one you use to hunt a brazilian jaguar or a snake. to get the a trap animal. to mistrereat us. to make mying us people fall ill, to make ourr children f fall ill and get diseases. that is what i mean by trap.

trap he always uses. to any kind of indigenous people. and the planet earth. bolsonaro's explain latest movoves, trying to get a law passed that would allow for more gold-mining? anand what that means forr the yanomami and other indigenous people? before he was able to become a president, he already had this thought, this intentionf reducing the se e of o land. he sayays it is too much land fr just a few indigenous people and it is a nd very ri in wood.ls, , in would - -- in he sayays the land d is good for

plants, susuch as crops of .oybeans were sugarcanene toy want to use the land plant things that they use for food. food for the city. that is his reasoning. he wants to extract things from the underground. that is his concern. he wants to extract the wealth from the earth, right from thehe land where yanomami have been living for many, many years. that is why he keeps talking about it. .e created a legislation it is a bill for mining. and he wants to get it approved

at our national congress. it.d i am awaware of i know that if they let it a worrythis is realllly for me. amy: mercury. what is used in the gogold-minig prococess. how does that make people sick? >> i am going to explain it to you. use, theyry that they use it when -- they actually got it from somewhere else, from japan or from here in europe. and then they use it in their mining activities. the machine come to dig a huge

, andto extract minerals then it goes on the rivers. the rivers are full of minerals, full of gold, full of sand and mud. on mercury is then dropped the rivers, and t they use it to thatate mud and sand so the only thing left behind is gold. that is what they use it for. in the mercury is then left inside of the riverer. does.on't melt like sugar it stays there. it is a disease that stays within our rivers. fish, anand eat smsmaller

and then fish come and eat smaller fish, just like fruits that fall into ththe rivs and then fish get contaminated. and us yanomami who live byby te rivers, we use the water to make food or to bathe and it and to drink it. and after, we get sick. we get cancer. children then born smaller than usual, underdeveloped. causingwhat mercury is our health terribly in yanomami people because of it. amy: that is brazilian indigenous leader davi kopenawa, cofounder of the yanomami hutukara association. you u will receive the rightht

livelilihood award tonight heren stockholm, sweden. we will continue with our conversation with davi in a minute. ♪ [music break]

amy: "someone for something" by the swedisish musisician and flt elsa nilsson. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. in our next segment, we will be speaking with the former u.n. repertory y on t torture, manfrd ofak, about the new study children around the world. first, we continue our conversation with indigenous leader of the yanomamami peoplen brazil, davi kopenawa. he will be receiviving the right lilivelihood award tonight in stockholm, sweden. >> i want to read a few of bolsonaro's quotes. in 1998 he said, "it is a shame that the brazilian cavalry has

not been as efficient as the americans who exterminated the indians." >> the president of the united states, they exterminated our indigenous people who lived over there. he is doing just the same. he is repeating it. he wants to kill my people. he wants to get rid of the forest. he wants to destroy our health. that is the role he is playing. is a law that came from the united states and the brazilian copynment is using it as a . amy: i want to read another quote from years ago, 2015. bolsonaro said, "the indians do not speak our language. they do not have money.

they do not have culture. they are native people. how did they manage to get 13% of the national territory?" and he said "there are no indigenous territories were there are not minerals. they are in these lands, especially the amazon, the richest area in the world. i'm not getting into this nonsense of defending land for indians," bolsonaro said. if you could comment? people -- he heard other people talking, and that is why h he says that as yanomai people do not speak portuguese. of course we don't speak portuguese b because we are not from portugal. b brazil.anomami fromm we h have our ownn language.e.

it existst it ishe y yanami. yanoma do not ne anyny mey. o not ne money to go on and feel -- - steal from others, to steal fro friends, from your r own r relatives andd brothers we don't needhahat. has a different way of thinking. us.rites things against has because he lost when we when we werery able to have again -- to get back f for us our land that had

been stolen from us. and that is why he talks against us and he speaks thehese bad things about us. and i defend myself and my people on behalf of my people, i defend the name of my people and our language. what is the use for the yanomami to speak portuguese? we are not interested in it. we are interested in our own .anguage, our knowledge whoknowledge of our people uses its own language, that is what is interesting for us. but i wanted to respond to the second thing that you read about, his words when n he speas of our wealth. of course there is a lot of wealth. brazil is very rich. our country brazil is very rich.

rich in good land and forests. rich in mountains and waters. the natural medicines that we use and beautiful places. rich aswhere we are , whoami who lived there have never experienced hunger before people who came to invade our land, to invade brazil. when they first met us, we were healthy. they found as healthy with lots sugarcane,banana, fruits you find in

the forest, animals, game that thatnt, fish -- everything we are rich in.. it is not ththe kind of wealth u need to dig a hole in the earth to find it, to destroy the land. our people are different. that is why he speaks against us. and i don't want to say bad things about him, but he attacked us so i will attack him. i am not going to attack him with a bow and arrow. however, i am going to fight --ng my mouth and taper paper. words and the word that he uses, which is prejudice.

he does not like indigenous people. he does not want to let the yanomami people to live at peace , protected. he does not want that. he does not want to let it happen. what he wants is to extract our wealth, to send to other countries. land,alth of our yanomami he will take it and send it to , to japan, to germany, and other places. that is his way of thinking. that is his concern, making that hearning money so can become rich. and when he becomes rich and when he d dies, he wowon't takey of it with that, not even his underwear.

amy: bolsonaro calls the climate crcrisis a hoax. president trump calls the climimate crisis a hoax. can you talk about what t the climate crisis means for the yanomami people, for thehe peope of brarazil? sick group, the president of the united states, , and thedent of brazil president of venezuela. they are talking to each other and discussing and then they tell people there are no problems in brazil because they want to hide it. this is very clear. everyone knows it is taking place, climate change. he sees ththe fire burning up or

fofosts, butut he is not concerd about it. he is not worried when he sees the forest burning up. he is taking advantage of it. because the fire burns at the forest and the trees burn up and then workers, and take advantage of it and bring trees down. yeah, that is his way of thinking. .ut it t truly took place it is happening while -- it is happening. forest andn the deforestation are increasing. amy: can you talk about the the indigenous, forest protector? your organization has worked with him for some time. recently, a grououp of experts

released an open letter to bolsonaro warning a genocide is underway against the indigenous tribes of the amazon rain forest. yourself?l threatened and respond to that murder. leader, a am the leader who fights. i have been fighting for 40 years. and i am threatened. ofm threatened by a group illegal gold miners and also .armers and politicians have a way of finding someone who enjoys

killing and who kills indigenous peoples. and i am persecuted. our indigenous leaders who really fight, they want to get rid of us. so i am threatened. and i think that this will happen again. name,e talked about his bolsonaro. talkingknow that we are about him, about his name bolsonaro. asking yourur help in order to protect us so that we won't let it happen again as it happened to other leaders who got murdered.

it is a very dangerous struggle. town boa vista, so the bolsonaro people, they pay others to go after the leaders who are fighting. amy: what message do youu havave fofor the leaders of the u.n. climate summit, the thousands of people who come from around the woworld? and what message do you have to the people of the world? like to give ad message, a message from the yanomami people. ask the leadeders -- the n nonindigenous leaders

to gather with other homes, who are at their their cities, their capitals. i would like to take this opportunity to send them a that they can know about what is going on so they won't let it happen again, something very bad to my yanomami people, so they won't let people destroy the that they won't of people destroy the lungs planet earth. that is my message. so everyonone, all of those whoo fifight, all ofhose who love the foforest, all of those who likeo

nature, to take carare of for their children, grandchildren, and the other .enerations i also need help. i need help on that because we so that theyldren have their protected land, so that they have a protected land for them. that is why i am giving you thts message comes to ask for your your european people totalk to bolsonaro, to talk the president of brazil so that he takes care of his country so

.hat he can take care of it protecting it together with the indigenous peoples and together the people who lived in .acred land peoples the yanomami who have never seen the white ..n yanonomi people who live in sacred land. so i would like you to protect us, protect the isolated indidigenous communinities. want the president of brazil to destroy y the lungs of our forest, our rereal amazon. .t is unique

lots of people are trying to get .heir hands on the amazon who collect honey and take it to their home, i do just the same.do that is my message. this is a message for women who fight for having the right to land, men who fight for their forest, their education, their health. nowadays, the young people, they and they are the ones who will keep on fighting. it is a struggle, a fight so we can keep alive because without

the struggle, we won't live. there will be no forest. so we need to fight for it so we can live. amy: and what is the right livelihood award mean to you? why you're here in stockholm, swededen. is really this award important. it is very interesting. it is interesting that the government of sweden invented this and created t this award. important to bring recognition to my struggle, to bring recognition to my yanomami people so that people from the city and people of the planet get to know us. this is really important that the people from here are offering me this award. i never asked for it. and i am happy to

accept it. it is really important. it is the result of our fight. amy: brazilian indigenous leader davi kopenawa, cofounder of the yanomami hutukara association. he will receive the right livelihood award tonight, along with a 16-year-old swedish climate activist greta thunberg, human rights leader aminatou haidar, and chinese women's rights lawyer guo jianmei. when we return, we speak to the former u.n. rapporteur on torture who just released a devastating report on more than 7 million children worldwide deprived of their liberty from immigration jails to orphanages to prisons. stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: "today begins my sadness." this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. we are broadcasting from stockholm, sweden. as we end today's show with a damning u.n. report that says 7 children worldwide are

deprived of their liberty, from children detained on the u.s.-mexico border to the missing children of isis fighters. "the global study on children deprived of liberty" reports that millions of children are living in various states of detention across the globe, from orphanages and foster homes to police custody and immigration detention. among them, at least 410,000 are detained in jails and prisisons, where violence is "endemic." the study also found that the number of children detained in the context of armed conflict has dramatically risen. the global study was published in november on the 30th anniversary of the convention on the rights of the child, the landmark international treaty affirming the world's commitment to protecting children. it is the most ratifified u.n. treaty in history. the united states is the only country that has not ratified the conventition. we are joined now by the lead author manfred nowak.

he is an austrian human rights lawyer. served as the u.n. special rapporteur on torturure from 2 4 to 2010. we welcome you to democracy now! it is great to hahave you. if you could summarize the results of this devastating report. >> ass y you said alalready, moe than 7 million people are deprived of liberty, most of institutions but also the administration of justice and migration detention. it is too much. the convention rigights of the child is clear. assess deprivation of liberty for children should only be allowed as a a measure of last resort. so it means we have to do much more -- states, pririmarily, hae to do much more to reducece the children by means of diversion, stopping immigration attention because it is never a measure of last resorts.

it always violates convention. but also to establish special children courts to apply diversion measures because we need much more resources to childt familieies, but also welfare systems. they should take these children even if they are in conflict with the law. amy: so you talked about attention and how that violates international treaties on the convention of the child. let's start in the u.s. the u.s. is the only country in the world that is not ratified this convention? explain the convention. >> the conventioion is down 30 years old. rights,ails all kinds of in particular, also every decision that affects children should take into account the best interest of the child. children should antnticipate -- participate in things affecting them. there should be no discrimination against children. ththere should d not be violenc,

sexual violence, etc., but also know deprivation of liberty. on the other hand, children should be supported i in the rit to education, health care, etc. it is s very conference of treay -- comprehensive treaty. amy: the u.s. alone is not honoring. so you talked about attention on the border. the number of children that are detained, that are separated by their families in this country, and you tatalk about an international violation of law. >> yeses, of course come in my opinion, thihis was aa decisionn that is in human treatment both to the childldren, very smalll children that are separated from their families, but also the families. sometimes i families have been deported back to mexico and central americaca. the children are still kept in the united states. they do not k know where their families are. ththe children. it is terrible to imagine if you're the mother of a small child and you don't over the child is.

amy: also, the children of isis fighters. explain where they are being in prison. >> we have about 29,000 of these children. partly recorded on the internet by isis, partly whose families went to the so-called caliphate. small children or they were even born there and now they are either detained by the kurdish auauthorities in the north of underor in iraq deplorable conditions. will be in other countries where ththey're coming from that want to take them back. so what we are saying and recocommending is that states should take the responsibility for their own nationals, to actually take them back and try to re-socialize them, not to punish them. children in armed conflict,

child soldiers, should be seen primarily as victims not as perpetratorsrs. children,about uigher what is happening in china right now. >> what we know is about one millioion human beings, uighers, muslims in china, are currently detained in camps for reeducation purposeses. many of them arare chilildren and they have been separated from theheir parents. that we don't have enough information to really say how many. a certain, many thousands of children that are suffering there. amy: what does it mean when a state does not participate in givingng over information? >> we send out aa question to al member states s of the united nations. wewead a fairlrly good response, but certain ststates, including china and the united d ates of america,a, did not reply t to or questionnaire so we had to relyy

on other official data. that is why also our estimates are very conservative. if i'm speakingng about 410,000 children in jails and prisons, probably the real number is much higher. about aant to ask you story that goes back in time but actually is in the headlines right now. it is about this latest news that we had in our headlines about the international criminal u.s. lookinggthe into crimes against humanity or war crimes. when you were the u.n. rapporteur on torture, you called for an investigation into president bush and donald rumsfeld for war crimes. this relates directly.

>> yes. forr war crimes and crimes against humanity, for me, i was on tortureporteur for torture that was practiced in secret detention camps come in guantanamo bay come at a great, and other facilities -- in abu ghrhraib, and other facilities in afghanistan, the prison of darkness, etc., which were terrible crimes that were committed under the direct responsibility of president bush and secretary rumsfeld as well. so i am very happy -- it is a little bit late international criminal court onlnly now is starting to investigate these crimes that happened in afghanistan many, many years ago. amy: i was struck by how little attention this latest report that you have put out has gotten. when you're talking about 7 million children and it could well be more children being detained, imprisoned, held in some way around the world.

some of the media tried to discredit it based on the news conference that you held, talking about a number you used. i'm wondering if you could comment quickly on this, talking about the number of children ininto tension i in the itited states and immigration attention? >> yes, it was a number that dadates back to 2015, still u ur the obama administration, but it was the latest reliable number that we had on the total number detained immigration in the united states -- in migration attention i in the uniteded sta. it is not much different. the u.s. is still the country with the highest number of children held in migration attention worldwide. amy: what you're saying is ththere's beenen a continuing fm the obama to the trump administration. finally, the legacy of the torture program as the united states, you having served for

years as the u.n. rapporteur on torture. >> it was a very bad precedent. in many other countries who said the united states is the country that founded democracy, human rightsts more than 200 years ag, they are now officially applying torture. so why shouldn't we do the same because we are also dealing with terrorists? so it was really undermining the absolute solution of torture and that is a very negative long-term effect of the bush. amy: we will link to your report on the imprisonment of children worldwide. your figures, oh, the new global detained,hildren deprived of liberty, you're never at least manfred nowak is 7 million. an austrian human rights lawyer. former u.n. rapporteur on torture from 2004 to 2010. we will be live streaming

today's impeachment hearing at democracynow.org starting at starting at 10:00 eastern standard time. that does it for our show. democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-ma