02/24/20 02/24/20 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> all of you know we won the popular vote in iowa. primaryhe new hampshire . networksding to three in the ap, we have now won the

nevada caucus. amy: senator bernie sanders scores a decisive victory saturday in the nevada democratic presidential caucuses, riding a wave of support from latinx voters who strengthened his status as front runner. we'll get response from erika andiola with raices action and new york university professor cristina beltran. then senator sanders has rocked -- >> ideological revolution that leaves out most dememocrats. not to mention most americans. a socialist or plutocrat. i'm a democrat. amy: we will host a debate on bernie sanders and democratic socialism with two economist, nobel prize-winning economist "new york times" op-ed columnist paul krugman and richard wolff, social economist. all that and more, coming up.

welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. bernie sanders won the nevada caucuses by a landslide, earning just over 47% of the vote with 88% of precincts reporting. he more than doubled joe biden's vote count, who came in second at 21%. pete buttigieg came in third with close to 14% and senator elizabeth warren placed fourth with 10% of the vote. entrance polls showed sanders picking up the most votes across many demographic categories, in particular among latinx voters, where he received over 50% of the vote. senator sanders addressed his supporters at a victory speech in san antonio, texas, saturday night. >> nevada, we have just put together a multigenerational, multi-racial coalition which is going to not only win in nevada, it is going to sweep this country.

amy: earlier on saturday, sanders had visiteded the memorl -- [no audio] south carolina head of the state primary saturday. two billionaires will appear on stage -- former new york mayor mike bloomberg and tom steyer, whose rising numbers in the state of south carolina polls

's appear to be eroding joe biden's support. meanwhile, calls are mounting for msnbc host chris matthews to resign following his remarks comparing senator sanders's nevada victory to nazi germany's takeover of france. >> i am reading last night about the fall of france in the summer of 1940 and churchill calls and says, it is over. and says s come how can it be? you have the greatest army in europe, how can it be over? he says it is over. cannot bedamn he is damn right on this one. amy: bernie sanders' communications director, mike casca, responded to matthews' comment on twitter saying -- "never thought part of my job would be pleading with a national news network to stop likening the campaign of a jewish presidential candidate whose family was wiped out by the nazis to the third reich. but here we are." in china, president xi jinping described the coronavirus

outbreak as the largest public health emergency since the founding of communist china as the government delayed the meeting of the national people's congress for the first time in worldwide, the number r of infections is nearing 80,000, with over 2600 deaths. south korea has issued the highest level of alert as six people have now died from the disease, with over 800 people infected. in italy, 150 cacases have now been confirmed, including three deaths. 10 itali towns areow on lockdownnd the vice carnal was cut short. in iran, eight deaths have been reported, prompting border closures with afghghanistan and turkey. back in the ununited states, the trump administration has backed off plans to house patients from the diamond princess cruise ship at a base in alabama after local officials threatened to sue over the planned move. presidenent trump arrived inin a today, where he appeared at a

massive rally with indian prime minister narendra modi in gujarat. a reported 100,000 people packed a massive cricket stadium where trump touted a $3.5 billion u.s.-india defense deal, as he delivered a speech under the banner of "namaste trump." some rallygoers reportedly started leaving the event because trump's remarks were not being translated stop trump also claimed, "india is a country that proudly embraces freedom, liberty, individual rights" despite the brutal government crackdown on muslim indians as it enacts its controversial new citizenship law and the ongoing repression in kashmir. in afghanistan, the u.s. military and the taliban have begun a week-long partial truce, ahead of the expected announcement of a long-anticipated peace deal. the u.n. said in a report released saturday that over 10,000 civilians were killed or injured from the ongoing

conflict in 2019 and over 100,000 civivilians have been killed or ininjured over the pat decade. in iran, conservative candidates affiliated with the revolutionary guguards picked up the majority of parliamentary seatats in an election that saw the lowest voterer turnout since the 1979 revolution. over 7000 possible candidates were disqualified ahead of the elections ---- the first since e u.s. resumed harsh sanctions against iran. in gaza, palestinian man was killed promptiting and outcry after a a video showed an israei bulldodozer scraping up his bod. the e incidentnt was followed by rorocket fire from gaza and israeli airstrikes. elsewhere in the occupied palestinian territories, israeli police shot dead a man in east jerusalem on saturday. the police say he was attempting a stabbing.

meanwhile, senator bernie sanders has said he will not attend the annual aipac conference again this year -- that's the american israel public affairs committee. he tweeted -- "the israeli people have the right to live in peace and security. so do the palestinian people. i remain concerned about the platform aipac provides for leaders who express bigotry and oppose basic palestinian rights. for that reason i will not attend their conference." in canada, teck resoururces hahs withdrawn its apapplication n fr the $15.5.5 billion alberta oil sands fronerer mine daysys befoe e e governmentntf primime minisr jujustin trudeau was to announce whetether it wouldld allow the prproject to go o ahead. itit would have e been the l lat everer open pit mimine and w expecteded to pump aroround 2600 barrels ofof oil p per day, producing 4.1 megagatons of emissisions each yeaear. indidigenous and environmental grgroups have bebeen sounding ge

alalarm over the prosesed mine. last week, a a group o of nobel prize winners called on trudeau to stotop the teck frontier min. indigegenous climatete action, h led the grassroots campaign agaiainst the project celebrbrad the announcement, writing -- "our communities need a just transition, not more fossil fuel resource extraction. we need to be in charge of our own futures, lands, and job opportunities that work to solve the climate crisis, address inequality, and respect our rights and sovereignty as indigenous peoples." back in the united states, president trump's new personnel chief, john mcentee, is reportedly directing agency heads to identify anti-trump staffers. trump has tasked his former body man to purge the "bad people" and "deep state." trump also reportedly referred

to anti-trump employees as snakes. 29-year-old john mcentee was fired in 2018 by then-chief of staff general john kelly because he was under investigation by homeland security for financial crimes. but he was recently rehired to head the personnel office. meanwhile, axios is reporting the trump administration has been gathering lists of disloyal government officials that they plan to kick out and replace with trump loyalists. a network of trump allies, including ginni thomas, the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas, was reportedly charged with creating the lists. one of those targeted is u.s. -- former u.s. attorney jessie liu, whom trump withdrew for consideration for a top treasury role earlier this month. jesse liu's memo reportedly mentions her signing the sentencing filing requesting jail time for michael flynn, as well and holding a leadership

role in a women's lawyers group that is "pro-choice and anti-alito." the supreme court voted 5-4 friday to allow trump's so-called public charge rule to go ahead, by lifting a lower court injunction on the rule in illinois. the measure seeks to severelyy limit the number of low-income immigrants by denying green cardrds and visas to anyonone wo may seek benefits, like medicaid, food stamps, and housing vouchers. the supreme court similarly a nation-wide injunction on the rule last month. justice sonia sotomayor delivered a scathing dissent, writing -- "claiming one emergency after another, the government has recently sought stays in an unprecedented number of cases, demanding immediate attention and consuming limited court resources in each. and with each successive application its cries of urgency ring increasingly hollow.

the court has been all too quick to grant the government's 'reflexive' requests. but make no mistake: such a shift in the court's own behavior comes at a cost." in more immigration news, buzzfeed reports a 34-year-old mexican man has died while in the custody of ice, that's immigratioion and customs enforcement, at a hospital in ohio. his death marks the seventh death of an immigrant while in ice custody during the 2020 fiscal year. and in new york city, thousasans of people from the dominican community took to the streets of washington heights saturday to protest the suspension of local elections in the dominican republic earlier this month. anti-government protests have been ongoing since last week, after the dominican central electoral board blocked municipal elections, alleging there was a technical glitch in the electronic voting machines. voters say it's part of an

attempt by the ruling political party to hold on to power. these are voices from saturday's protests in washington heights. >> i'm a professional who had to migrate from my country in search of a better future for my daughter. my daughter partially his generation needs us to truly wake up and clean up our country for them. >> i believe the elections brought a conclusion to a series of events. this was the last straw for a country that endured too much corruption. amy: the last voice was laura gomez of "orange is the new black." dominican republic officials are reportedly investigating the alleged ballot machine glitches, and have rescheduled the municipal elections for march 15. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. senator bernie sanders scored a decisive victory saturday in the democratic presidential caucuses in nevada, riding a wave of

support from young voters, union members, and latinx voters who strengthened his status as front runner. in the third state to vote in the democratic primary, former vice president joe biden finished in second-place, with mayor pete buttigieg of south bend, indiana, in third and senator elizabeth warren trailing in fourth place. senator sanders addressed thousands of supporters at a campaign event in san antonio, texas, saturday after he was declared the winner in nevada. >> we are going to win across the country because thehe amerin people are sick and tired of a president who lies all of the time. [cheers] tired of ack and corrupt administration. [cheers]

they are sick and tired of a president who is undermining american democracy. [cheers] law.hinks he is above the amy: entrance polls show senator sanders picking up the most votes across many demographic categories command particular among latinx voters where he received over half the vote. his win shows the potential for to reshape the next stage of the democratic presidential race. in the next four weeks, six more of the 12 states with a large latinx population will vote in democratic primaries. on super tuesday, texas, california, and colorado go to the polls. arizona, florida, and illinois will vote on march 17. for more, we are joined by two guests. in phoenix, arizona, erika andiola is chief advocacy officer for raices action, the advocacy arm for the refugee and immigrant center for education and legal services.

and here in new york, cristina beltran is an associate professor and director of graduate studies at new york university's department of social and cultural analysis. author of the book "the trouble with unity: latino politics and the creation of identity." we welcome you both to democracy now! cristina beltran, let's begin with you. talk about the level of organizing that went on in nevada and the significance of this win with bernie sanders, the corporate media saying he doesn't have the suppoport of communities of color,r, winning more than half of the latinx vote. >> it was a stupendous victory for the sanders campaign. i'm political scientist by training and study latino politics and we have been talking about the issue of the whether democratic party treats latino voters in terms of mobilizing latinx populations in

a very strong it away where they sort of talking -- talk about wanting this electric but never put forward the resources or time. they typically draw people into do stuff at a quick level. one of the things that are so amazing is this is one of those experiments like, what if you axley did the things that organizers and political scientist to think about mobilization, who actually did what people have been talking about, which means they went into grassroots organizations, did not just hire democratic party votes. they went into different groups like take the road, make the road. they actually drew out those activists to tap into the political energy of these community's and put in the resources -- i think something like every democratic registered latino was texted or emailed. they knocked on thousands of doors. that kind of mobilization i think was so critical. also the youth element. young latino voters were able to

talk to their families and parents. i think that is critical to creating this multigenerational turnout where you had voters who were also really talking to their families and having a collective conversation, the .ind of soccer events they did this on a broad-based level that took seriously the organizing energy, not just seeing them as -- inn an instrumental way, but activists and organizers themselves. amy: let's talk about the idea of investing in organizers that the dnc has had so much trouble with. we will have chuck rocha on the show to mark on the mexican american main organizer of the bernie campaign in nevada. but this idea of investing in organizers almost will have parents the proud if their kid says, what are you going to be when you grow up?

and organizer. but what that means to organize on the ground? >> i think that means understanding the variety of issues, in a lived way. i think it is also understanding -- often i think one of the biggest problems for latinx communities, they described as monolithic, described as if they are all one thing, described -- you hear these characterizations they get targeted for just around the question of immigration when it is important to think about it as a solidarity issue because voters have citizenship. you have to talk about that as a solidarity question around mixed status families. i think organizing people really does involve people on the ground who have a deeper sense of the issues that affect these communitieies, people whwho hava deep sensese of those questions. i think a lot of it is about recognizing that there is a deep history of labor organizing in these communities. the labor movement historically in this community.

we don't talk enough about a long history of latino and latinx labor organizing from people in the unions in the 1930's all the way to cesar chavez to auto workers there's a long history of deep -- and having activists who understand and know that history and can mobilize it is deeply powerful. people need to see -- feel like they are seen in all of their diversity and difference and all of their practices. i think the sanders campaign understood that and i did not try to micromanage it. they actually let organizers think on the ground with what they thought made sense in terms of how t to reach out to communities. but trusting organizers and mobilizing organizers. it takes money and resources to turn nonvoters into voters. give a big chunk of latinx communities that have been voting but there is a young population. it is a population that is a more working-class population. they take real resources to turn into voters and it takes

multiple touches to do thahat. d they did that. amy: you have a kind of bucking of the leadership of the representsion, which thousands of service workers. i think senator sanders took something like seven of the eight casinos. we're talking about thousands and thousands of workers that the rank-and-file disagreed with the leadership -- who did not endorse anyone. it is not like they endorsed biden, for example, but they did say they were not for medicare for all because they provided a health care -- they provided health insurance themselves. >> there is a debate about what that means in terms of what could get lost in what could be gained. i think what they don't understand, and this is something sanders has been successful at, he combines and ability at his best to talk about very material, concrete things that people need alongside of social justice. that combination is powerful.

one, you have a lot of culinaray workers who are thinking about things beyond their health care. they're thihinking about college education, mass incarceration, the deportation regime. there were a lot of other issues to mobilize those voters and make them feel like that was the candidacy they wanted to support. a lot of the union workers have a lot ofof family who were nonunion jobs and have precarious health care. i think there was a sense it isn't just about the narrow self-interest or protecting one's only quality health care, but a larger since there's a health care crisis beyond themselves and try to think about what is going on with their children, their cousins, grandchildren -- all of the people around them. it is a combination of an group and solidarity politics that he tapped into that a allow peopleo ultimately vote in a broader way that people may have imagined. amy: i want to bring in erika andiola and ask you about the protests that erected at the end of last week's debate in las vegas. this was wednesday night just as

former vice president joe biden was giving his closing remarks. lucia allaind were protesting. "no kids in cages" as well as "don't look away" as you were escorted from the auditorium. i want to play the clip of you that night just after the protest. clubs decided to interrupt. we are not sorry. the immigration debate today is the last issue they talked about and they did not even have time to talk about the issue. this is not t ok. we're beieing the most attackedy the trump administration and we deserve conversation. amy: that is erika andiola on wednesday night. erica, you're back in arizona, also an extremely significant state, but you are in nevada

organizing as well as protesting. talk about the response to your protests and why you were there protesting in democratic presidential debate. >> of course. one of the biggest reasons we were there is because there has been a growing frustration among a lot of us who have been organizing around immigrant rights for really long time. even within the community that immigration doesn't come up as one of the issues that is debated or is really hashed out as far as what the policy should look like, what candidates want the policy to look like at a time when we have news from the trump administration almost every week about a change that has happened that is going to affect the community. to us, it is scary just because we have had a democratic president before donald trump trumplly assess -- donald office who was promising reform.

at the end of the day, he deported a record number of people. many people said after the protest, why don't you go to trump? when i to go protest trump? he is the one doing all of these things to kids and families? we have been fighting against trump for four years, almost four years now. we have been really fighting against him but in this particular occasion, we have the ability to change the debate on immigration within the democratic party. win shut in nevada, you can talk about it because one of the candidates in his platform, and you can still win and that is one of the things that the democratic party has been pushing back and really telling candidates and not really allowing candidates to talk about the issue because they are so afraid talking about immigration is going to be a losing strategy for democrats and we don't think that is s the

case. you can win. bernie showed it in nevada. i think it is i important we continue to organize the community. i agree with your other guest that it is about organizing. not taking latino voters and immigrant voters for granted. amy: i want to ask about this report in buzzfeed. wrotersday, buzzfeed "bernie sanders campaign reversed one part of his immigration platform, a blanket moratorium on deportations pending a policy audit. instead, sanders campaign while thegued that moratorium on be deportations what affect 99% of the people living here, it would not be absolute. the moratorium, he said, would not apply to "violent criminals and that some people serving time in prison would have a deportation decided on a case-by-case basis. if you could respond to that? >> i was in the room when that

happened in nevada when all of the surrogates were there to talk about the issue. first of all, again, it was disappointing to see that the only -- one c candidate showed p and the rest of the folks were surrogates. no candidates decided to show up. there has not been a real conversation about the issue whether it is at the debate or outside of the debate. there has not been an actual policy discussion within the candidates of what this issue should look like. really, the devil is in the details. this is what we need to hear from the candidates, what they actually will do on immigration. it is easy to say we want to moratorium of deportations, no kids in cages. there are things that are easy to say, but we don'n't hear poly -- we don't really hear what the plans are. it i is hard to know what it is going to look like. i hope we are able to continue to hear from the bernie campaign

of how that looks like an that we're not going back against the same narrative that obama had, that you had felons versus families because our criminal justice system is also broken. continue to say we vow without giving the details, who the folks they are calling criminals, people who have actually done really violent crimes were if it is really people who have criminal records because they cross the border were because they did something 20 years ago and it is still on the record even though they have changed their lives. yeah, we need to hear more details and that is why raices action disrupted the democratic debate because we need an actual debate on immigration from all of the candidates. amy: i want to thank you both for being with us. also adding that when it came to the african-american vote in biden gotce president

39% of the vote. sanders, 27%. stier, 16%. this is extremely significant going into south carolina because 60% of the democratic voters in south carolina are african-american. , want to thank erika andiola chief advocacy officer for raices action, the advocacy arm for the refugee and immigrant center for education and legal services. and cristina beltran is an associate professor and director of graduate studies in the department of social and cultural analysis at new york university. when we come back, w we hosteted debate on bernie sanders and democratic socialism. we will be joined by richard .olff and paul krugman stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: frank sinatra. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. as we continue to look at senator bernie sanders' runaway win in nevada, which cemented his position as the frontrunner for the democratic presidential nomination. as sanders' bid for the democratic nomination looks more and more likely, the democratic party establishment and much of the mainstream media are openly expressing concern about a self-described democratic socialist leading the presidential ticket.

his opponents, including former vice president joe biden and former south bend mayor pete buttigieg, are also on the attack. >> senator sanders believes in an inflexible, ideological revolution that leaves out most democrats, not to mention most americans. socialist or plutocrat, i am a democrat. amy: that was joe biden and before that pete buttigieg. they were speaking on saturday night after the results from the nevada caucuses rolled in. last week during the primary debate in las vegas, bernie sanders addressed misconceptions about socialism. >> let's talk about democratic socialism. let's talk about what goes on in countries like denmark. where pete correctly pointed out they have a much higher quality of life in many respects than we do. what are we talking about? we are living, in many ways come in a socialist society right now. the problem is, as dr. mamark

luther king reminded us, we have socialism for the very rich, rugged individualism for the poor. let me finish. when donald trump gets $800 million in tax breaks and subsidies to build luxury condominiums, that is socialism for the rich. we have disowned set eyes workers -- we have to subsidize workers for medicaid and food stamps because the wealthiest family in america pays starvation wages. that is socialism for the rich. i believe a democratic socialism for working people, not billionaires. health care for all. educational opportunitieies for all. amy: that was bernie sanders. for more, we hosted a debate on bernie sanders and democratic socialism. with us in new york city is nobel prize winning economist, an op-ed columnist for "the new york times" paul krugman.

his latest book is just out. it is called "arguing with zombies: economics, politics, and the fight for a better future." one of his recent columns is headlined "bernie sanders isn't a socialist." also with us in studio is richard wolff, emeritus professor of economics at university of massachusetts, amherst and visiting professor at the new school. he is the founder of democracy at work and hosts a weekly national tv and radio program called "economic update." he's the author of several books including "understanding socialism." welcome both of you to democracy now! what do you make of what is happening right now, paul krugman, with bernie sanders? so far come the clear front runner, but moving into south carolina, and why that headlined "bernie sanders is not a socialist" what you're getting at. he loves denmark. i love denmark. i think denmark is an

illustration of how a decent society can be. the danes do not think there socicialist. they t think they are social democrats. they don't not use the word -- they do not use the word "socialism." commandingeizing the heights of the economy, it is a strong social safety net and a strong labor movement all of which i support. in arguing with zombies, i have k,whole chapter called ee socialism. you say that your for universal health care. they say, is a socialist. you say your for universal childcare. they think, how many people stalin killed. why describe yourself? i think it is self-indulgent to call yourself a socialist and give the republicans unnecessary ammunition. i think probably we are for -- i am for the same kinds of policies, universal health care and childcare, all of these things.

why buy into the republican effort to make this sououndbite- sound like something stalin would do? amy: he calls himself a democratic-socialist. >> why use the word? in a gloomy treasure clip from the debate in las vegas last week. first we hear from bernie sanders and mike bloomberg. >> what we need to do to deal with this grotesque level of income and wealth inequality is make sure that those people who -- maybe your workers played some role in that as well. important that those workers are able to share the benefits also. when we have so many people who go to work every day and they feel not good about their jobs, they feel like cogs and a machine, i what workers to be able to sit on corporate boards as well so they can have some say over what happens to their lives. >> mayor bloomberg, you own a

large company. would you support t what senator sanders s is proposing? >> absolutely not. i can't think of a w ways that would makeke it easier for donad trump to get re-elected than listening to this conversation. it's ridiculous. we're not going to throw out capitalism. we tried. other countries tried that. it was called communism, and it just didn't work. amy: so there was michael bloooomberg, the former mayor of new york city going after bernie sanders. richard wolff, you describe yourself as a socialist economist. respond to what both paul krugman says and what bloomberg is saying here. >> sure. there is no agency, public nor private, that defines what socialist is. you discover it has been a contested terrain from day one. there were different interpretations and different meanings. bernie sanders is perfectly in line with one of the traditions of what socialism is. it is the government having a

big role in offsetting some of the awful qualities of capitalism. but we also know that the kind of control that the government tries to operate is very difficult for it to succeed with. we once had a new deal in this country. we lost most of it because we did not go beyond a government intervention to change the society. what bernie sanders represents is an awareness that it is time to have a conversation we should have had for 75 years about our capitalist system and whether we can do better. this is now a changed environment in which was taboo in this country isn't anymore. achievede has already the breaking of a taboo in this country to talk about socialism, it strengths and weaknesses, it's different interpretations, and compare them to capitalism rather than running away because nasty conservatives call us various names. that is not a profound reason.

and for the young people of this country, it does not carry much weight anyway so i welcome the opening that bernie achieves that we can talk about socialism. it's different interpretations and why we ought to explore them a lot more than we have been able to under the taboo of the last 75 years. amy: paul krugman? >> a lot of young people have reacted. we have a 60 year-long campaign of equating any attempt to making american lives better with socialism and a fair number of young people have said come in that case, i'm a socialist. the trouble is, are not going to win this without a fair number of old people ,too. it is self-indulgent to go down this route. is the nominee, the democrats are going to have to get behind him and people like me are going to end up writing lots of things assign, don't be scared, he uses the word "socialist" but he does not mean what republicans think -- want you to think he means.

who needed this, this extra thing? i'm not sure i quite see what the point is. it seems to make the argument that says, "i want social justice, i want a strong government safety net, i want worker empowerment," you can say those things without having to give ammunition to people who want to make you sound like stalin. expecting to be e -- i sanders will probably be the nominee and i expect to spend da lot of f the nenext year saying, look, he's reallyly talking a at denmarark, not venezuela. i should not have to be doing that. amy: richard? >> i am proud to be part of a socialist tradition. i understand paul's difficulty. he is having to defend a centrism that is been rejected by a large number of people. the stunning reality is the majority of young people, 35 and under, no longer think socialism is a bad word and they are

immune to that. and the young people in the future of this country, which the older people know, too. and they're being asked to question, the older ones, by the younger ones, why this taboo? what we could not talk about socialism? why we could not embrace a socialism? electability? my goodness, we have seen anything in the last for years, we have seen the center, whether it is in europe or this country, falling away, disappearing centerleft, center-right, for the extremes on the right and now an extreme on the left. i don't find that frightening. i understand people who are welcome weo, but i can have an honest debate in this country. and there is much of the socialist tradition that is well worth keeping. there are lessons of what we should do -- just like there are lessons of what we should not do, which is true for capitalism as well. we are opening things up. and i think when it comes to electability, we have as much to

argue that this is the way forward as anyone on the other site. >> i don't think people who send me hate mail think, centrist. i am for universal health care. -- deficit spending on universal health care. if that is centrist, let's have it. amy: before we go to issues like medicare for all, i want to turn what has been happening over the weekend. a kind of meltdown on msnbc around the issue of bernie sanders, clearly looking like he is the front runner. and chief among those melting down appears to be chris matthews, who this week and compared senator s sanders' neva vivictory toto nazi germany's tatakeoverer of france. >> i am reading last night about the fall of france in the summer of 1940 and the geneneral callsf chururchill's says, , it's over.

and churchill says can help you to be? you have the greatest army in europe. how can you be over? he says, it is over. i had that suppressed feeling. i could not be as wild but he is damn smart and i think he isdamn right over this one. amy: responding on twitter saying -- "never thought part of my job would be pleading with the national news network to stop likening the campaign of a jewish presidential candidate whose family was wiped out by the nazis to the third reich. but here we are." a people are calling for chris matthews to resign. paul krugman? >> far be it for me to defend chris matthews, who i think has been a malign influence on a lot of our political discourse. i don't think he was calling sanders a nazi. he was saying, this is what it lookoks like when you lost. it was stupid and insensitive. in was characteristic. i mean, if that is what centrism sounds like, this notion that

calling for universal h health care is some kind of extreme position. it is telling you something abouout where matthews' head is that not something good. i do not think it is unique. there is a lot of -- lloyd blankfein saying, oh, i might have to vote for trump if sanders is nominated. amy: explain the significance of who lloyd blankfein is. >> he is the ceo of goldman sachs. sanders might raise your taxes. that is not in consideration. american democracy is on the line. i'm not sure how many people are out there but there are a lot of influential people who are horrified by the prospect of a strongly progressive candidate. and that should be condemned. i just wish he would not call himself a socialist. amy: richard wolff? >> politics is shifting and the centrists are having to discover they are centrist because

politics has moved to the left. that is what the young people around bernie sanders have accomplished. it may be offered and i'm comfortable for people who used to think of themselves as the left to discover they are not, that there is a movement to their left, but we are very proud that has returned as a kind of sanity a balance in our political discourse. i am not surprised that people like matthews overreact because they are being outflanked on the left. they were not ready for it. remember in 2016, talking to a high official of the democratic party, assuring me bernie sanders would never get more than 1% or 2% of any vote anywhere ever. and they did not know and they did not understand -- it is a little bit like the old bob dylan song, "wake up, there are things going on that you did not foresee in that are shifting the ground on which you statand. i want to be clear that many of us welcome this. amy: chris matthews has been on a tear. remember theaid "i

cold war. i have an attitude towardd th without pastor and said if there catcher in the reds had run the cold war, there would be a bit ask occasions in central park and i might one of the ones executed and certain other people would be there cheering." suggesting, as he was talking about bernie sanders, bernie sanders would be responsible for his execution in central park. >> for me, this is all that i hear in all of this is an anguished fear that the politics is moving to the left. these are individuals who made a commitment long ago in their lives not to go to the left, even if they had sympathies there, to stay in the middle because it was the safe, wise thing for the future for the country and for their careers. and that is no longer the case. .nd they are outraged amy: we're going to go to break and come back to this discussion. we are talking 22 economist,

richard wolff has a new book out called "understanding socialism." and paul krugman has a new book out called "arguing with zombies: economics, politics, and the fight for a better future." stay with us. ♪ [music break]

amy: this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. as we continue our debate on bernie sanders and democratic socialism with paul krugman, nobel prize-winning economist, op-ed columnist for a book with the new york times" has a new book out called "arguing with zombies," and richard wolff emeritus professor of economics , at university of massachusetts, amherst and visiting professor at the new school. his book is called "understanding socialism." paul krugman, i want to go to one of your columns that you just wrote helen "bernie sanders is not the left trump."

your stance on medicare for all? >> if i could do it, if i could wave a magic wand or if i had a time machine t that can somehowo almost got7 when we single-payer health care, i would do it. it is not the only way to do it. one thing we have learned is every other advanced countryry s universal health care, they do it in different ways. some have government provisions, some have regulated private health care, some have single-payer single payer is not the only solution but it is, there are 160 million people in america who have private health insurance. you are saying to those people, we're going to replace what you haveve with something completely different trust us, it will be better. it will probably be true for most of them it would be better, but that is a huge polititical risk. you are asking people to make a

huge leave of fate. whereas we can impact get to universal coverage through more cash through a public option, something like medicare for america, something that lets people buy into medicare and subsidizes it without having to waste their time. absolute best health care is not the only priority. if i were to say what is the biggest gap in america it is we are not doing enough to help children. i would like to spend more on helping children in a variety of ways. i think the driver medicare for all will kill that possibility was of amy: interestingly, when you look at the polls in new hampshire and nevada about what people care most about come in both places it is the same, number one, number two is climate change, number three i think is inequality and number four is foreign policy. especially in nevada, richard wolff, what is interesting is you had a very powerful union, the culinary union, where they were offering excellent health insurance to their workers and yet their workers

overwhelmingly, the rank-and-file bucked the leadership and said, even if we are getting great health care, we have family members who are not, loved ones who are not. and ultimately, we want medicare for all. explain this discrepancy. paul krugman is saying it is not realistic. >> i think the politics in america have changed. i don't think the masses of americans want to hear the details about what you might get and how careful we should be and what steps we should -- they want change. they wanted it from obama who promised open change. they wanted it even from mr. trump, who promised a change. we did not get the changes they promised, neither one nor the other. so now people want something that will solve their problem, will not respect the old centrist let's go carefully, let's do this, let's not push too hard. amy: how do you get to medicare for all immediately were more rapidly than what paul krugman

is suggesting? >> i agree with paul, which is doubly surprising both of us. the point is, there are plenty of models out there of countries that have in a variety of ways answered the basic human demand i want to be careful, i want to know that when i am born and until i die if something happens to me in the way of illness or injury, i am taking care of. i what a public park and public schools, i want public health care. and they don't want the details and hesitance. and any of them would be a perfectly good bases. amy: it has interested me how people to other countries to say what would be models. when we have the model right here at home. we have medicare, one of the most of your programs in this country. >> we have socialized medicicine for everyone over 65. it is interesting. we also have private insururanc. we have not abolished private supplemental insurance for older people in america. it is a bit of a compromise

system. the existing medicare we have for older americans is not as radical as the medicare that bernie sanders is proposing for everyone. look, yeah, the u.s. contains multitudes. we have pure socialized medicine, veterans health administration is an actual government provision, and it works. we have regulated private markets and obamacare. peoplele trash obama a lot, but given the constraints he was under him he got 20 million people health insurance who did not have it before. i personally know people's lives were saved by obamacare. let's not dismiss it as nothing. and we have single-payer. there are many ways to achieve it. we should look at every other -- the problem is, we have a safety net that has huge holes in it. amy: this el study just came out in the medical journal lancet that said medicare for all would save the u.s. $450 billion and prevent nearly 70,000 deaths a

year. you have bernie sanders recently saying that he wants people in the movement to say "i'm willing to fight for someone i don't know." argumentmatch paul's and his little model of someone whose life was saved by introducing them to people whose life was lost or at least the relatives because they did not have the coverage that mr. was unable to get. and for someone who kept saying, "i could do more if only i had the groundswell of support in we do have to remember that when the groundswell developed called by wall street, mr. obama wiped it out with this bulldozers and ducati park and everywhere else from undercutting the very groundswell he had earlier used as an excuse for not doing more. but my responses whether it is health care or a decent college education for americans, it does not settle them with tens of

thousands of dollars of debt. the demand is out there and that is what is fueling mr. bernie sanders' support. they don't want the middle dish change that. they want problems that have existed in this country for many years. they want it solved and they want a politician who they can believe might actually do it as opposed to those in the middle who have been saying it and promising it and belaboring the difficulties, basically, not getting it done. amy: one of your columns, paul "haven, you talk about zombies eaten bloomberg's and buttigieg's brains?" explain. >> one of the zombies is this obsession with public debt. we should bethat terribly scared of government debt and we can't do anything ekeke. deficits

at that very moment when mainstream economics, if you like centrist economics, has concluded, hey, these debt worries were way overblown. the president, the american economic association gave this presidential address saying, debt is not merely the problem people think it is. deficits were an existential threat when obama was in office. they don't matter as soon as trump is in office. i really don't want to see -- i mean, if we did get t a democrat centrist who bought into this deficit scaremongering, that would be really bad thing. that will block any kind of initiative. amy: there's a mayoral -- presidential debate coming up on tuesday night in south carolina. two of the seven candidates are

billionaires. richard wolff, your thoughts? >> for me, it is always in astonishment to observe this inequality getting worse and worse. even though i wasn't alive then, i'm one of the people who celebrated in the 1930's, we compress the inner in this country by means of an unusual president whose politics are remarkably like that of mr. bernie sanders these days. we axley did something to lessen the inequality. as soon as the war was over, we resumed the new deal and the inequality began to get to the crazy levels now. it is an abomination that one person, for example jeff bezos, has 100 plus billion dollars, deciding what is to be done with all of those resources. that is not democratic. that excludes the mass of people from the knees that could be met if that money was used for only. and he can hardly consume it himself. it is an extraordinary critique of capitalism that is allowing

this kind of concentrated wealth, which of course, protects itself by trying to control the politics of our country so that they don't have the power in congress to undo the inequality in the first right on, bernie sanders. i billionairesk are inherently evil, but there is something wrong when two guys who don't have any kind of national political base aree in this debate only because of their money. the peculiar thing is that tom steyer may well make bernie sanders the nominee by drawing support away from biden. evil, but henot should not be in this race. amy: we want to leave it there for the moment. we will continue to cover all of this during this 2020 election year. we will be doing a five hour special on super tuesday night from 7:00 p.m. eastern standard time right until midnight.

i want to thank paul krugman nobel prize winning economist , and an op-ed columnist for "the new york times." he is the author of numerous books, including most recently "arguing with zombies." thank you to richard wolff, author of the book "understanding socialism." democracy now! i