03/13/20 03/13/20 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! pres. trump: anybody that needs a test, gets a test. amy: "anybody that needs a test gets a test" has the president of the united states? that simply is untrue. there have been just 11,000 tests in the united states so far since the cocoronavirus outbreak began. compare this to nearly 20,000 tests for coronavirus every day

in south korea alone. the head of the national institute of allergy and infectious disease says the u.s. is failing when it comes to testing for the virus. >> the idea of anyone getting easily as people in other countries are doing it, we are not set up for t that. i think we should d be? yes, but we are not. amy: today we look at how the trump administration has failed to account for what may be thousands of coronavirus infections because of ongoing problems with access to testing. we will speak with professor justin lessler of the johnss hopkins bloomberg school of public health,h, senior author f a new study that suggests the median incubation period for the new coronavirus is about fifive days. and epidemiologist dr. steve goodman at stanford medical school, associate dean of the

school. both are holding classeses onlie for the rest of the quarter over concerns abobout the outbreak. yes, dr. goodman is my brother. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the coronavirus pandemic is continuing to spread across the globe. according to the world health organization, coronavirus has now infected over 135,000 people and killed nearly 5000. kenya and ghana have confirmed their first coronavirus cases. india has reported i i first coronavirus death. the death toll in italy has surpasassed 1000 whihile the country's medical system struruggles to treat the sicick. meanwhile, satellite photographs have been published online showing what appear to be mass graves in iran where coronavirus victims have been buried. the official death toll in iran

is around 429, but many fear the actual number is far higher. france, ireland, austria, belgium, turkey, and norway have all begun taking steps to close schools s to stop the spread of the virus. here in the unitedtatates th number of report c coronavirus infections jumped by nearly 400 thursday to about 1650, but the actual number is believed to be higher. congress's in-house doctor has privately told capitol hill staffers that he expects 70 million to 150 million people in the u.s. will contract the virus. six states have announced plans to close all public schools -- oregon, ohio, michigan, maryland, kentucky, and new mexico. schools in houston, texas, and near seattle are also closing. almost 5 million children are being impacted by the closings.

all major sporting events in the united states have been halted. the ncaa has canceled for the first time ever the men and women's college basketball tournaments known as march madness. utah jazz player rudy gobert has apologized after testing positive for coronavirus just days after he jokingly touched reporters microphones and phones while leaving a news conference monday. he wrote, "at the time, i had no idea i was even infected. i was careless and make no excuse. i hope my story serves as a warning causes everyone to take this seriously." disney has shuttered all of its theme parks around the world, including disney world in florida. new york state has banned public gatherings of more than 500 people, including all broadway shows.

on thursday, new york city mayor bill de blasio declared a state of emergency as the number of confirmed cases in new york jumpmped from 42 to 95 in a sine day. >> the last 24 hours have been very, very sobering. yesterday morning feels like a long time ago. we got a lot of information in the course of the day. last night it seemed like the world turned upside down in the course of just a few hours. amy: on wall street, the dow jones industrial average plummeted 10% on thursday in its biggest drop since 1987. airlines and crews companies have been particularly hard-hit. major international crews lines, including princess cruises and biking, have suspended operations. president trump's ban on europeans flying into the united states from 26 european countries goes into effect midnight tonight. the stock market losses came

despite the federal reserve injectingg aboutut $1.5 trililln into the financial system in an effort to prop up the markets. former labor secretary robert reich tweeted -- "total student loan debt -- $1.7 trillion. total cost of the fed's short-term bank funding -- $1.5 trillion. america has socialism for the rich, harsh capitalism for everyone else." reverend william barber of the poor people's campaign tweeted -- "overnight they found $1.5 trillion for wall street, but they can't find money to provide healthcare & living wages for 140 million poor & low wealth people in america." the trump administration is facing w widespread criticism fr its handling of the coronavirus outbreak. on thursday, dr. anthony fauci, the director of the national institute of allergy and infectctious diseases, said the u.s. is s failing when it t como testing for the vivirus.

>> the system does not -- it is not really geared to what we need rigight now, what you're asking for. that is failing. it is a failing. let's admit it. the idea of anyone getting it easily the way people in other countries are doing it, we are not set up for that. do i think we should be? yes, but we are not. amy: the bbc reports nearly 20,000 people are being tested for coronavirus every day in south korea -- far more than the 11,000 tests d done in thehe und states sinince the outeaeak beg. on capitol hill, house speaker nancy pelosi said she is close to reaching a deal with the white hohouse on a coronavirus d package that includes funding for tempmporary y paid sick leae and free virus testing. on thursday, democratic congresswoman katie porter of

california grilled centers for disease control director robert redfield on ththe affordabilityf coronavirus testing. todr. redfield, do you want know who has the coronavirus and who doesn't? >> yes. >> not just rich people, but everybody who mighght have the virus? >> all of america. >> will you commit to the cdc right now using that existing authority to pay for diagnostic testing free to every american regardless of insurance? >> well, i can say we're going to do everything to make sure -- >> not good enough. have theeld, you existing authority. will you commimit right now to using the authority that you have invested in you under law that provides the public health treatment,rotesting, exam, isolation without cost,

yes or no? >> what i'm going to say is i'm going to review in detail -- >> no. amy: in more news on coronavirus, the press secretary of brazilian president jair bolsonaro has tested positive for covid-19. the official was photographed last week standing shoulder-to-shoulder with president trump and just a few feet from vice president mike pence during bolsonaro's recent trip to florida. the official is also seen standing just behind trump in video taken at the event. south carolina senator lindsey graham, who was at the mar-a-lago meeting, says he will self quarantine while awaiting the results of the coronavirus test. so we'll florida senator rick scott, who met separately with bolsonaro and the aid on monday. the white house, however, said president trump does not plan to get tested.

and he has repeatedly said this. meanwhile, australia's home minister peter dutton has tested positive for coronavirus. last week, he met with president trump's daughter ivanka trump and attorney general william barr. in canada, sophie gregoire trudeau, the wife of prime minister justin trudeau, tested positive for covid-19 thursday. she reported mild flu-like symptoms after a trip to the u.k. prime minister trudeau says he does not have symptoms but will work from isolation for 14 days. in the philippines, president rodrigo duterte ordered a lockdown of metropolitan manila, home to 13 million people. duterte's order cuts off land, domestic air, and sea travel to and from metro manila and imposes bans on mass gatherings. schools have been ordered shut for a month and community quarantining is in effect. local officials who defy government orders face jail time.

duterte was tested for coronavirus after a possible exposure. meanwhile, six of his cabinet ministers, 16 lawmakers, and the philippines' central bank govevernor have all gone i into self-quarantine. as the coronavirus continues to spread in the united states, immigration advocates are afraid of a deadly outbreak inside immigration jails. silky shah, executive director of detention watch network said in a statement -- "lives are already at risk in detention, and with the spread of coronavirus, people are sitting ducks in a system notorious for its fatally flawed medical care." there are also mounting concerns that the deportation of asylum seekers from the u.s. and mexico could accelerate the spread of coronavirus across central america. honduras canceled the arrival of flights with people who were deported as the country already declared its first two cases of the virus.

el salvador has declared a national quarantine and banned all foreign travelers even though it hasn't had any confirmed coronavirus cases yet. this comes as the guatemalan government announced wednesday itit would ban the e entry of eueuropean citizens as well as people from iran, china, south korea, and north korea as an attempt to control the spread of covid-19. meanwhile, doctors working at a refugee camp aiding thousands of people in the border city of matamoros are preparing for the inevitable arrival of the coronavirus to shehelters and camps across the u.s.-mexico border. one doctor at the matamoros shelter said covid-19 infections along the border will be "catastrophic." in other news from the u.s.-mexico border, a 19-year-old pregnant woman from guatemala has died from injuries she sustained after she fell while attempting to scale the u.s. border wall. attempts to deliver her unborn baby were unsuccessful after she fell more than 19 feet.

the democratic national committee has announced sunday's democratic presidential debate between joe biden and bernie sanders will take place in cnn's studio in washington, d.c., instead of in arizona due to the covid-19 outbreak. there will be no live audience. on thursday, senator sanders called on president trump to declare a national emergency and for everyone in the country to be able to get the healthcare they need without cost. >> if there ever was a time in the modern history of our country when we are all in this together, this is that moment. solidarity.ime forr now is the time to come together with love and compassion for all, including the most vulnerable people in our society who will face this pandemic from

a health perspective or face it from an economic perspective. amy: senator sanders also called for an immediate moratorium on andtions, foreclosures, utility shut-offs during the crisis. on thursday, the miami-dade police department announced its officers would not assist with evictions during the pandemic outbreak. joe biden is called for scientists to be in chargrge of dealing with the coronavirus pandemic in the united states. in iraq, the united states launched a series of air raids targeting iran-backed militia groups. the u.s. described the attacks as retaliation for a rocket attack that killed two u.s. soldiers and a british army medic on wednesday. al jazeera reports iraq's military confirmed the u.s. air raids late thursday night hit four locations, including an airport under construction in the holy city of karbala. there have b been injuries but o fatalities reported so far. no one has claimed responsibility for wednesday's

rocket attack against british and u.s. troops but the u.s. blamed the iranian-backed kataib hezbollah militia. back in the united states, u.s. army whistleblower chelsea manning will soon be released from jail after one year behind bars on contempt charges for refusing to cooperate in a federal grand d jury investigatn into wikileaks. the order for her immediate relelease comes one day after manning was s hospitalized in virginia after she reportedly attempted suicide at a federal prison in alexandria. on thursday, judge anthony j trenga wrote -- the court finds ms. manning's appearance before the grand jury is no longer needed, in light of which her detention no longer serves any coercive purpose." judge trenga, however, rejected a request to cancel the fines imposed against manning for refusing to testify. manning will now have to pay $256,000. in 2013, chelsea manning was

sentenced to 35 years in prison for leaking documents and video to wikileaks showing evidence of u.s. war crimes in iraq and afghanistan. president obama granted her clemency in n 2017. a vocal supporter of donald trump was sentenced wednesday to a one-year prison term for threatening to assault and murder minnesota congressmember ilhan omar. 55 year old patrick carlineo, jr., who told investigators he loves the president and hates radical muslims in our government," called congressmember ilhan omar's office in 2018 and delivered the threat in an expletive-laden rant. congressmember omar is one of the first two muslim women elected to congress, and is the only lawmaker to wear a hijab. at a a sentencing hearing in federal court in western new york wednesday, carlineo received a shortened prison term after congressmember omar pleaded for leniency. she wrote in a statement to the judge -- "the answer to hate is not more hate. it is compassion. he should understand the

consequences of his actions, be given the opportunity to make amends, and seek redemption." in climate news, top united nations researchers are warning that polar ice caps are melting six times faster than they were in the 1990's, threaeaning sea level rise that will dplplace hundreds of millions of f people by the end o of the century.y. the intergovovernmental papaneln climate change says ice loss data from greenland and antarctica is in line with some of the most pessimistic predictions of climate change, and that even if global carbon emissions were somehow halted today, arctic ice would continue to melt for another three decades. in south carolina, a 1988 anti-lgbtq law that prohibited public schools from mentioning same-sex relationships in sex and health education has been declared unconstitutional by a u.s. district judge. the banning of the outdated law comes two weeks after a federal lawsuit was filed by the national center for lesbian rights and lambda legal on behalf of a high school lgbtq student organization and other lgbtq rights groups. the lawsuit said the 1988 law

violated the 14th amendment by discriminating against lgbtq students as it prevented them from having access to vital health education. colorado state lawmakers have approved a bill to replace columbus day with a holiday honoring frances xavier cabrini, the patron saint of immigrants. the leadership council of the american indian movement of colorado celebrated passage of the bill, writing -- "for decades the holiday officially justified the substitution of fallacy for history in repeating a false narrative about the heroism of columbus, while ignoring his brutality and crimes against the indigenous peoples of the americas." if the bill is signed by governor jared polis, colorado will join 12 o other states and dozezens of local governmentntst will no longer c celebrate cocolumbus day.. most of them nowow celebrate indigenous peoplple's day in its place.e. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. it has b been seven weeks since the first case of coronavirus was reported in the ununited states. today we look at how the

trump administration has failed to account for what may be thousands of infections because of ongoing problems with access to testing. here in the united states, the number of reported coronavirus infections jumped by 400 thursday alone to about 1650, but the actual number is believed to be far, far higher. congress' in-house doctor has privately told capitol hill staffers that he expects to 150 70 million million people in the u.s. will contract the coronavirus. six states have announced plans to close all public schools -- oregon, ohio, michigan, maryland, kentucky, and new mexico. schools in houston, texas, and near seattle are also closing. almost 5 million children are being impacted by the school closings. all major sporting events in the united states have been halted. the ncaa has cancelled the upcoming men and women's college basketball tournaments known as march madness. disney has shuttered all of its

theme parks around the world including disney world in including disney world in florida. new york state has banned public gatherings of more than 500 people. broadway has shut down. on thursday, new york city mayor bill de blasio declared a state of emergency as the number of confirmed cases in the city jumped from 42 to 95 in a single day. numbers, these overall are striking and troubling. even compareddd this morning, we have seen a big jump. we now have 95 confirmed cases as 42 nuisance yesterday. you can see the progression now. amy: mayor de blasio e estimated new w york could have e 1000 cas of coronavirus next week, and said -- "we are getting into a situation where the only analogy is war." reports york times" fewer than 2000 peoeople and d w york have been tested. there have been just 11,000 tests throughout the united

states. compare this to what the bbc's reporting. nearly 20,000 people are being tested for coronavirus every day in south korea alone. at a congressional hearing thursday on the coronavirus outbreak, democratic congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz of florida pressed cdc director robert redfield on the limited availability of coronavirus tests to medical workers who think they've been exposed. redfield was unable to ansnswer and ththen turned to national institute of health official dr. anthony fauci for guidance. this is how drdr. fauci, who isa didirector of allergy and infectctious diseases, t top mer of trump's task force, respsponded. >> system is not really geared to what we need right now, what you're asking g for. that is a failing. close a failing. >> let's admit it. the fact the wayay the system ws

set up is s the public health component the dr. redfield was talking about was a system where you put it out in the public and a physician asks for and you get it. the idea of anybybody getting it easily the way people another country is doing it, we are not set up for that. do i think we should be? yes, but we're not. >> that is really disturbing and i appreciate the information. amy: dr. fauci's statement appeared to directly refute a claim president trump made last week. pres. trump: anybody that needs a test gets a test. they are there. they have the test. "anybody who wants a test gets a test," that is what trump said. this comes as trump administration's coronavirus task force has gone two days with no press briefings, and the world health organization has officially classified the coronavirus outbreak as a pandemic. for the rest of the hour, we are joined by two guests. in baltimore, justin lessler is

associate professor at the johns hopkins bloomberg school of public health. senior author on a new study that suggests the median incubation period for the new coronavirus is about five days. and joining us from stanford university, which is now closed to students on campus. it has online learning. dr. stephen goodman is with us, associate dean at stanford medical school where he is also a professor of epidemiology and population health and medicine, oh, and he is alsoso my brother. he joins us from stanford university. they are continuing to hold classes online over concerns about covid-19. we welcome you both to democracy now! steve, let's begin with you. i consider you my lifeliline on issues like this, and that is why we called you. why don't we start by this issue of testing. it is absolutely astounding that

in countries like -- and countries like south korea where we hear the tests are something like 20,000 a day, in this country, it is believed that there have only been 11,000 tests over the entire period of this outbreak. how is this possible? what happened? >> well, i don't knknow all of e details of what happened,, but t is clear there were decisions that were made centrally about what tests do use and restrictions on who could do the tests. .hat has been changed anand finally, other l laborato, inincluding one at stanford, hae finally been authorized to develop and now deliver their own tests. usehe original decisions to a u.s.-specific test, not the one that was suggested by the who -- which has been used in many, many other countries -- in

retrospect, obviously, was a big mistake. and we had trouble manufactuturg and distributining a valid teset centralized at the cdc. amy: this is the critical issue, right? available. test it was the world health organization test of the one that countries all over the world are using now, but the cdc made a decision not to accept that test. they made their own tests, send them out, and it was faulty. >>hat's s right. so n now we are having to depend on the many labsbs arod d the country and commercial laboratories to devevelop and offer this test. we are really just gearing up now for that. the stamper test, which is the one being used regionally, i think this week they were offering between 200 and 300

todaday and say next w week they will be upup to about 100000 a . that obviously is not remotely enough to track where the epidemic is going, but that is what we have right now. regionally, nationally, i don't know the capacity as. but as dr. fauci said, we are way, way behind. amy: let's bring professor justin lessler into this conversation from johns hopkins. is's talk about why testing so important. why is it so importatant that we know in this country where the disease is, where the outbreak is? why is it important to know the number? >> i mean, this is our ability to have situational awareness about what is going on with the virus, where it is, how to react. the most extreme measures that virus, to combat the essentially, potentially,

closing whole cities down like they did in china or italy, we don't want to do those in places where there isn't a lot of -- there isn't actually a lot of disease. and we don't want to wait until the hospitals are filling up with dead people to do this, because then it is too late. we want to react in time. that means we need testing and that means we need to be testing with the right intention. i think there is still some inertia toward trying to test people who have traveled, etc., with the idea we're going to go around those people and contain and trace their conontacts and y toind those e chains of transmission. but i think we maybe need to rethink that with the idea that we realllly want to situational awawareness about t what igoinin in the community and what silent outbreaks i be hapappening so tt

we can resespond accordingly in our public health measures. amy: in terms of people isolating themselves, dr. steve goodman, if you could talk about what it means not to have a test. so you don't know even if you have been exposed to someone who has tested positive, and also come isn't it true these tests at this point in most cases take days to get results -- although, there are some that are now being developed that simply take hours? but what it means for people protecting the comommunity? > as justin sasaid, people 't actually know what the threat is. they don't know how many peopope araround them have the disease d they don'tt know,w, obviously, y -- whether they themselves have the disease if they have been exposed.d. so it is very, v very didifficut for either public health authorities to calibrate the response properly as justin just described, o or i individuals to

calibrate their own actions. i also want to point out that when we talk about self-isolation or anything that an individual can do, the paradigm really has to be not just, what can i do to protect myself, but what can we each do to protect each other? the act of self-isolation is not just individual protection. it is protecting everybody you are in contact with. but t to know how extreme the behavior should be, whether you shouould not g gto a park,k, whr yoyou should not go to the stor, is very muchch driven by your awareness, as justin described it as situational awareness, of how many cases there are, often silent cases, in your own community, in your own neighborhoodod, going to your on stores. so this personal decision has social and health consequences, but without testing, we are flying blind. amy: i want to go to the issue and if you could

talk about the difference, steve, or what the language is -- coronavirus, covid-19, for people to understand. explain that, the lexicon there of this disease. and also how it compares to the flu. president trump has repeatedly tried to say that the flu kills tens of thousands of people. he said, who knew the flu killed?? it turns out h his grandfather died of the flu in this country at a young age. he tried to use it to show coronavirus doesn't even compare. so talk about both, the language we use and what it means in comparison with the flu. ofwell, covid-19 is the name the disesease, not the virus specifically. what we are momost concerned abt is obviously the spread of the disease. let me talk about the flu.

the flu is a big killer and it does infect many people. i think we roughly have an array jeff 15 million to 20 mimillionn this season alone in the united states. the death rate in the range of 15000 and 20,000 deaths. the flu is very, very serious without represents roughly 5% to 7% of u.s. population. reason it doesn't represent more is because we have flu shots and we have years, decades of sort of cross-reactive immunity b built up overer peope who have been exposed to different virus strains. the difference with this virus is two. first of all, no one is immune.. so in theory, 100% of the population is susceptible to this virus, or very close to it.

the second part is the fatality rate. eieither for people who presento the medical care system sick enough to go to a doctorr or per infection, which is s somethingg different bebecause nonot everyy who is infected goes to the doctor, looks to b be a fair bit higher than the flu. maybe on the order of five times, maybebe even 10 times higher than the flu. much, muchmaybe a larger reservoir of susceptible people in the order of 10 to 20 times larger,r, and we hahave a fafatality rate thatat is betwen five and 10 times larger. so that is why the potential for this, even though we have a tiny fraction of the cases and deaths right now, why we are taking the extreme measures that we are taking. now, all that said, t the fertility rate e can be -- fatality rate can be affected by

what we do. it is a function both of the age of the people ininfected butut o of thehe capabability of the mel care system to take care of them. so if we can protect the medical care system, that is keep the number of patients coming in at a rate they can be cared for with adequate icu beds andd ventilators, etc., and also healthy medical care folks, we rate low,hehe fatality or at least lower than it would have been without that. amy: we're going to go to break and then come back to this discussion. we're going to talk about strategies to keep yourself and your family healthy, what to say andhildren -- dr. goodman dr. lessler have children -- how you are talking to them about what could be, to say the least, extremely frightening for them, as it is for the whole population. and i want to ask dr. lessler about the study he did in china come comparing wuhan and how it

dealt with the coronavirus with the community right next door. we are talking to dr. stephen goodman. he is associate dean at the stanford medical school. and justin lessler, johns ofkins bloomberg school public health associate professor. we will be back with them in a minute. ♪ [music break]

amy: "the long day is over" by norah jones. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. i also just want to say, i can't say enough about the team of people who are making this broadcast possible. as everyone in this country right now is dealing with this pandemic, as people are around the world, it takes a community. and we have an amazing one here

and i'm ever thankful every single day. seven weeks since the first case of the coronavirus was reported in the united states, we're spending the hour looking at how the trump administration not only has failed to account for what is clearly thousands of infections in this country because of ongoing problems with access to testing, but we're talking about what needs to happen next. this is the critical issue. we are broadcasting from new of new york just declared a state of emergency in the city. he said while there are about 100 people who have tested positive just in new york city alone, next week he expected to be 1000. just down the road in new rochelle and westchester is the epicenter of the coronavirus. and that came from one person who tested positive. and very soon after, his wife and two kids tested positive and now there are well over 150 people.

the national guard are now in new rochelle. the schools are closed. they want to make sure kids get food because many kids all over this country get free lunch at school. what happens when the schools are closed? so we are going to be talking about a lot of issues. still with us is dr. steven goodman, associate dean as emperor medical school where he's also a professor of epidemiology and population health and medicine, trained as a pediatrician. he is also my brother, my lifeline on issues such as these. he is joining us from stanford university. and from baltimore, justin lessler associate professor at , the johns hopkins bloomberg school of public health. senior author on a new study that suggests the median incubation period for the new coronavirus is about five days. justin lessler, i want to start there. what does that mean? why is that significant that the incubation period is perhaps five days? we had been hearing a lot about 10nd 14.

then i want toto ask about your work in china. median incubation period is five days. that means 50% of people are going to develop symptoms within five days of being infected. it is important to remember that is not necessarily the number were -- we are most concerned with. if we are thinking about quarantine or self-isolation after potential exposure because we don't what half the people who infected to be out there in the community potentially spreading the virus before they know they have it. what we are more concerned with is what we call the long tail of that. anand that is where we get to te fact that in our study we showed about 90% of people develop symptoms by 12 days, which suggests the 14 day period of quarantine or active monitoring ggested by almost every public health agency around the world is pretty good. some people will get through

good the it is pretty vast majority of people we develop symptoms will do so during that period. >amy: let me ask you about the work you did in china. tell me about the study just completed, comparing wuhan to a neighboring city. tell us about the outbreak in wuhan, what happened, how it was dealt with, and how it was dealt with nearby. clear, ourto be study was looking at the epidemiology and change in china, not directly comparing wuhan. wuhan was the epicenter of the outbreak. they clearly had things get out of control in the beginning and headed shutdown the entire city and a lot of the wholele provin, which they have now had to do in italy as well. itit is an example of both how d things can g get if we are not careful about staying on top of

things and very proactive, but also an example of the fact that massive didirect actionn can sot of squasasthe epipidemic and s p the virus. where we did ourur work, therers been no big outbreak. part of that i think is proactivive social distancing measures. so the types o of things wee aro see the united states, stopping mass events, havinggeople workrk from home and the like, but they soso had very innsive sueillance a very innsive contact tracing of cases that elsewhere in china. that probably played a big r roe in w why they did not have an epidemic. factcan you talk about the that looks like both in china -- it is hard to say we saying there's good news out of china right now. because of this terrible pandemic. the actual good news that is coming out of china and south

korea as opposed to what we're seeing right now in italy and now the united states, where we are just beginning to understand the scope of the outbreak here. >> so china clearly has been able to contain the disease, at least temporarily. i think there's a big question of what happens as they start to dial back all of the extreme measures they have taken in order to contain the disease. whether we see a resurgence or whether -- excuse me, or whether they are to do that in a way that more gradually -- a more gradual dial back in a way that prevents the virus from researching in the country -- re-s-surging in the country. italy is taking a similar course. it remains to see how effective it is.

it is different culturally and the population is different. andd the u.s., we're in a a different part of the outbreak. i think thehe hope is sinince we early, by doing things prproactively,y, canceling theha anthee ncaa toururnaments come everybody workiking from home, closing schools, that we can get to a point where we are slowing the spread of the viruwiththout havingng to havave measures as extreme as we are taking in china. amy: dr. steve goodman, if you could talk about what has horrificin italy, the turn of events there where the entire country is on lockdown, where the medical system is clearly overwhelmed. and then talk about the united states and this whole issue of flattening the curve, a term i think a lot of people are just beginning to hear right now, but what you understand took place in italy? >> well, i don't have special

expertise about exactly what is going on in itataly, but what is very, very clear is that the degree of spread and present has overwhelmed the medical system. that is very clear. so pararof what is happening there is an exaxample of when an is greateterepidemic ththan the infrastructcture that tatakecare of itit. as you mayay know, there have bn bothmely poignant pieces tweets and other forms of communication, by italian doctorors who literally have -- with great distress, talked about how they had to basically choose life and death per papatients for whom they had to choosese who to ventililate ando not to because they hahave a limited number of ventilators. so we don't wawant to get theren this country. ,gain, it shows the f fatality

which is ultimately one of the nunumbers that produceces the mt fear, is a function not only of how many cases or how many serious cases, but how much can be absorbed and properly treated by the medical care system. so that gets right i into your sesecond questioion, which iss t flflattening the curve. of mitigation efforts now, which is to lower the numberer of cases and spread thm out, is to keep the number of cacases to a level where the medical care system can adequately take care of each one, where we have enough personnel, where we have it up ventilators, we have enough icu beds, we have enough beds in the hospital to take care of everybody optimally. cerertainis taking a nunumber of cases s that would r in a certain period of time and spreading it out over time so that peak is less and so it

occurs over a much longer period of time. and hopefully, , obviously, also reducing the number ofof cases t this match, both regionally and nationally, between the number of facilities, personnel, beds, and equipment -- this has to be matched with the number of cases that are in thatat area. it would bee nice to hear from public health officials or national officials how they plan to shihift resourcrces if in fat the medical c care capabilitiesn any particular regionn iss outstrtripped by the numumber of cases. but t that is whatat flalattenie curve isis all aboutut. that is what a all of the measus just desescribed by yourself and justin are attempting to do. amy: and his issue of respirators in the united states, ventilators, of the access -- most people, they do not want to go to the hospital, even to the doctor's office.

most people actually will survive this and it is like the flu. and for many people, it is mild. and for children, even less so, though they can be carriers. at this issue of overwhelming the number of respirators and ventilators and hospitals around the country, can you explain that? >> obviously, the numbers are limited. i think we have something in the .rder of one million beds the actual number that are available at any one day is about one third of that. the number of f icu beds is a fraction of that. i want to make it a particular point that this is not just about caring for covid patients. covidid patients entering the system affects the care of other patients. so the kinds of things we tatake for granted in terms of care of

any of us for any serious disease is affffected byby the demand on ththe medical care system for the care of covid patients. so we are not geared up as a society with the surge capacity to hanandle the number of potential covid patients that we would get if we did not do anything. so the kinds of things we're doing now are to keep the numbers below the surge cacapacity, the very limited sue capacity, thahat we have lost up again, this is not just a national issue. we cannot just count up the number of national beds, we have a look at this regionally, the number of cases in new york city , the number of icu beds in new york city, and have thehe facily to movove those cases if in fact those numbers don't match up. amy: dr. steve goodman is associate dean at stanford medical school, dustin lessler is professor a at john hopkins johns hopkins bloomberg school of public health.

we continue with them after this break. ♪ [music break]

amy: "the reckoner" by radiohead. this is democracy now!, i'm amy goodman. the british government says up to 10,000 people may now be infected by the coronavirus. on thursday, british prime minister boris johnson called on people who are sick k to self quararantine. >> this is the worst public health crisis for generation. some people can. to seasonal flu. right.hat is not the lack of immunity, this disease is more dangerous and will spread further. and i must level with you and level of the british public, more families -- many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time.

amy: british foreign minister johnson. he did not close schools or been gatherings of more than 500 people. britain's chief medical officer said in a worst-case scenario,, morere than 80% ofof britain wod contract the virus with a 1% mortality rate that equates to more than half a billion deaths, 500,000 -- half a million deaths . here in the united states during his press conference in vermont thursday, senator sanders said the federal government would prioritize the care of communities that they should prioritize the care of communities most vulnerable during the coronavirus pandemic. >> we need also in this economic crisis to place an immediate moratorium on evictions, on foreclosures, and on utility shut offs so that no one loses

their home during this crisis and that everyone has access to clean water, elelectricity, hea, and air-conditioning. emergency construct homeless sltlters to makake sure the homeless survivors of domestic violence, and college students quarantined off campus are able to receive the shelter, the health care, and the nutrition that they need. amy: bernie sanders and joe bible debate in washington, d.c., as opposed to arizona where they were going to debate and there will not be an audience because of the coronavirus. dr. steve goodman, dean at stanford medical school, and justin lessler, professor johns hopkins, are with as from baltimore in stamford, california. dr. steve good for -- dr. steve goodman, the people who are working poor, who are without insurance, people who are unemployed, while everyone says

the coronavirus hits everyone, whicich is clearly true, there e communities that are particularly vulnerable right now. how must they be protected? well, this is an issue for public heaealth officials obviously, they had to be able to take the same measures that anybody would take to reduce the spread - -- the ones we have already talked about. however, the abibility for less wealthy or poor individuals to take time off from work to sequester themselves in their homes, to take care of ththeir children, may be quite different than others. so we have to think about it -- i think bernie has that about right. we have to think about this as a social responsibility, not just an issue for individual action because people's ability to protect themselves are

constrained by their own economic circumstances and their own loving circumstances. if they are living in very, very tight quarters with many people in communities where other people might be sick, it is very, very difficult for them to take care of themselves. needless to say, if they don't have accesess to medicalal carer arare every tuesday getet becauf they are afraid of the bills, that is another huge p problem. amy: or if they y are and documented. and if they are documented and free to seek testing as well. >> absolutely. amy: justin lessler, if you could also address this issue and that i would like to ask you how you are talking to your children. absolutelyit is critical to find ways to protect the populationsns that t are not going to be able to take the social distancing measures come have more trouble with that, potentially have food insecurity

if they don't go to school or go to places where there might be mass gatherings. and i think it is one of those things where we do have an individual responsibility not to just keep ourselves out of community i'm about do things to help others keep themselves out of the community. the government is going to be overwhelmed by this. we are not as a country set up to provide the services in a crisis the way it may be needed now. amy:y: right now in congress, there is a building weighed to the democrat led house set to vote on a bill that would grant workers 14 days of paid sick leave, to three-month a paid family and medical leave, unemployment insurance, and additional $500 billion to help feed low-income pregnant women or mothers with young children who lose their jobs or are laid out because of the virus outbreak. president trump said he did not support the bill.

but because we are coming to the end of this conversation, as people push hard for the entire , itunity to be protected has hit individuals but also brings up the importance of people around the world as a community. can you talk about what you're saying to your kids, professor lessler? >> my son is six. his school just got canceled. i am trying to explain to them there is a disease out there that is scary. he also is wondering why his dad is working so much. him am trying to explain to that it is important to wash his hands, important to think about what he is doing out there in the community and that maybe he won't be able to go to school, do some of the same things that he is usually able to do for

fun. i can talk more explicitly to my mother who is in her 70's and at high risk, whom i had to say, this is real, stay home, .elf-isolate, don't go out amy: a and thihis is a crititicl point here that the children don't attend to -- children -- this is not as fatal for children as it is for older people, especially over 70 and 80. >> right. in wuhan, at the last report i in wuhanwas in detail come out of 1000 deaths, only one was in someone under 20 years of age. and childrenmild do not seem to be at risk, even more so than the flu were we see children get sick and potentially die occasionally and the youngest ages. that doesn't seem to be

happening right now with the coronavirus. but we do not know. we know they can get infected and we do not know whether they can pass it on. keeping children -- amy: and children with asthma are more in peril. >> presumably. we don't know for sure. amy: steve, what you tell your who, , my nieces and nephew, are a bit older, but also, as 70 people in this country, a afraid right now? >> yes, so what is interesting is my kids are both in college, actually here at stanford. they are more worried for us. i don't have to tell them anything. they read. they are smart. they are much more concerned about their threat to us than anything else. so they are taking the steps they need to take to prevent us

from g getting s sick. it is a very interesting reversal of generational roles, perhaps a a premonition of thehe i is the but i think thihis responsibility that many young people feel not just to protect themselves becauause they themselves are not that worried, but they're definitely worried about the older generation the same way that justin is concerned about his mom. amy: and of f course your older daughter just had a baby here in new york. in thehe midst of thisis pandem. >> indeed, yes. and she is naturally self isolating, but is being extremely careful about her own exposure and needless to say, and her new job. amy: i want to thank you both for being with us, dr. steven goodman, associate dean at stanford medical school where he's also a professor of epidemiology and population health and medicine, and he's also my brother. justin lessler, associate professor at the johns hopkins bloomberg school of public health. we also want to welcome to the --ld

that does it for our show. everyone, wash your hands, the say. i'm amy gogoodman. enormous thank you to the whole enormous thank you to the whole team that made democracy now!

>> they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. and in fact, what we consider to be beautiful in nature, art, or music often differs from culture to culture, nationality to nationality, even generation to